Gaming Outpost Discussions » Tag: bias

Gaming Outpost Discussions » Tag: bias - Recent Posts http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/tags/bias Gaming Outpost Discussions » Tag: bias - Recent Posts en-US Thu, 24 May 2012 10:26:26 +0000 http://bbpress.org/?v=1.0.2 <![CDATA[Search]]> q http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/search.php Tadeusz on "David Weber and Linda Evans and Bias" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/david-weber-and-linda-evans-and-bias#post-14518 Tue, 03 Nov 2009 12:19:41 +0000 Tadeusz 14518@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ I'm reading "Hell Hath No Fury" by Weber and Evans right now, and it had an interesting bit on bias. In 'HHNF', there are two multiversal civilizations which use interdimensional portals to expand out into virgin Earths. And they bumped into each other, and things went south dramatically. One side has psionic Talents, and the other side has what they call magic Gifts. One of the Talents, a Voice (aka a long-range and short-range mindreader and mindsender) and her husband were captured by the opposing side, and are being brought through many dimensions and across tens of thousands of miles of 'railroad' to the home dimension. And one of the features of a Voice link is that the Voice can pick up a little of the emotions and such, the sideband, of the true message. This sideband is weakening after they got deeper into enemy territory. The protagonists' initial off the cuff theory was that Talents got weaker after a prolonged exposure to the Gifted. I, of course, instantly thought of Bias, of the rules in dimensions changing. "HHNF" could be similar to the Triverse in this, but with a more subtle breakdown and rebuilding of bias that stretches over a dozen dimensions between the two areas most amenable to their own type of power. ========== Also, they did something like what you did with TK, where you broke it up into varying parts. There are Voices, and there are Sifters (who can tell if you lie), and some other type of talent which lets you feel the type of person the other person is, and their general leaning at that time. As the character in the book puts it...He feels like he's about to stick a dagger in your ribs and get away with it. And you have Distance Viewers who are the top, and then there are Mappers who can show an area, and Plotters who can show the living in an area. ======= This is in large part an FYI post. M. J. Young on "Biasing out" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/biasing-out#post-8363 Tue, 02 Dec 2008 21:54:49 +0000 M. J. Young 8363@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ Some universes are divided into subuniverses; biases can be different in subuniverses. In fact, right now Graeme is in Roma in the Triverse, a universe in which Earth itself is split into three sub-universes with distinct biases, each bounded by geopolitical boundaries and stretched by political rules (e.g., a ship sailing from Roma carries Roman biases with it as long as it is on the high seas, but if it encounters a ship from Mongolchin, the Mongolchin ship is covered by Mongolchin biases). Similarly, there is one planet in the Blake's 7 universe on which the two indigenous ghosts weild great magical power, but magic does not work at all well outside there. But indeed, The Farmland (beta) in The Second Book of Worlds is exactly the kind of scenario you describe, in which human technology includes blacksmithing, but the aliens have interstellar travel and are intent on conquering these primitives among whom you find yourself. Just because the tech bias is high doesn't mean everyone knows it, as Harry says. Could you "feel" that the psi bias is low? I think so--but I think that the way you would feel it is by trying to do things and discovering that they don't work so well. Also, you would have to have a high psi bias yourself, or you really couldn't tell. Let's consider you, for example. You've got a 5@ bias at the moment; you were playing with your TK pulse. Your BRA is 2@2 and your SAL is 2@2, so that's 44% in a flatlined bias. If the bias is at least 5@, you get twice your bias level as a bonus, 54%. That's not a big deal, and if all you had to go on was that you tried the TK pulse five times and two of them worked, the statistics aren't going to tell you anything. But you as a player do have more than that: if one of those five rolls was 46 and it didn't work, you know that you're looking at a 0@ bias level, because if the bias level was 1@ you would have +2 for bias and the skill would work on a roll of 46. Also, if one of those rolls was 54 and it worked, you know that the bias level is at least 5@, because if it were lower than that that roll would have been a failure. You as a player know the roll; your character does not. Yet the player is permitted to know the rolls for his skill checks, and to make character decisions based on these, precisely because the character has that "feeling" that the player does not have. That "feeling" is apparent when your effort "should have worked" but didn't, when you did everything "right enough" that in that other world where the bias was higher it would have worked. So maybe you're not paying attention to the rolls. Maybe you, as a player, aren't really watching the fact that this number was a success in another universe but is a failure here. Maybe you're not adding your SAL and BRA to see what the minimum chance of success is, and comparing the roll to it to determine how far from that you were when it worked and when it didn't. But then, maybe your character isn't paying attention to that "feeling", either. Your "sense" of the successes and failures by the numbers on the dice convert directly to his "sense" of the ease or difficulty with which he is accomplishing things in his world. So, it's there. Oh, and the only time you benefit from a world bias that is above your own is when you are learning a new skill, and then the benefit is relatively minor (not more than +/-15 against a range of a couple hundred). If all the techology you know is the stone knife, you can't really sense that technology is high even if a flying saucer lands next to you--you don't understand enough technology to know that that's what that is. In the same way, a high psi bias means very little to you if you don't have it yourself. --M. J. Young JohnA1nut on "Biasing out" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/biasing-out#post-8347 Tue, 02 Dec 2008 05:00:06 +0000 JohnA1nut 8347@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ <blockquote>Besides, the Verser would know the Tech bias was high the instant all his Tech devices still worked.</blockquote> Well, there's always a few things that still work for the verser regardless of the bias. My first world was high psionic. My second world was flatlined for psionics. The way I tested to see if psionics worked was by throwing TK pulses. They still work in a flatline world, but not much else does. I assumed that the world was still high psionic. I could imagine a verser not realizing that the tech bias was high, based on similar circumstances. On a different note, wouldn't your character "feel" that psionics wasn't working as well? You go from a 15@10 psionic bias to a flatline bias. Wouldn't you "feel" that it was a lot more difficult? I could imagine an experienced verser getting to be able to tell the approximate psionic bias by how difficult his TK pulse was. johnosevens on "Biasing out" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/biasing-out#post-8346 Tue, 02 Dec 2008 03:13:30 +0000 johnosevens 8346@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ A1Nut - Just because the Tech bias is 15@10 doesn't mean everybody knows about it. Besides, the Verser would know the Tech bias was high the instant all his Tech devices still worked. In a world where scissors were considered high tech, even something like a wristwatch probably wouldn't - and certainly nothing with a computer in it. JohnA1nut on "Biasing out" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/biasing-out#post-8345 Tue, 02 Dec 2008 02:29:28 +0000 JohnA1nut 8345@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ I'm curious. The biases reflect the biases of the ENTIRE UNIVERSE right? So that means that, if you're on a world with a flatline tech bias, it's flatlined on EVERY SINGLE WORLD IN THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE, right? I was just thinking that could make an interesting scenario. The verser lands on a world where scissors haven't been invented yet, and thus believes that the tech bias is fairly low. However, it's actually 15@10, and the planet is invaded by Independence Day style aliens, and the verser is the only one with technology capable of defending the planet. M. J. Young on "Biasing out" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/biasing-out#post-8316 Sat, 29 Nov 2008 02:13:16 +0000 M. J. Young 8316@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ <blockquote>Is it possible to make a sub-universe with a characteristic that says it massively bonuses attempts to cast spells out from inside it? Like, the universe heavily favors outgoing magic? Or is that just silly?</blockquote> I think we have to be careful here: can who create such a sub-universe? The referee can create any sub-universe he wants, as Eric observes. The question is, what purpose does it serve him? For a character to create a sub-universe is a tremendously difficult high-bias skill in any bias area. To then define the biases of that sub-universe makes it even more difficult, more challenging. And, what is being overlooked in this: a sub-universe is part of a universe. That means when you verse out, it does not go with you, and you will have to create it afresh in the new universe. That in turn means that the bias curve of whatever bias area you're using to create your sub-universe has to be high enough to allow you to do that in this universe. But by that point, it would seem that the bias curve, at least, is high enough in a bias area in which you have demonstrated very high skills (the skill to create a sub-universe) that you probably have sufficient skills to work powerfully within that universe without trying to do something else. If your concern is that the curve is high but the level is low, thus giving you low probabilities of success on all your powerful skills (no bias bonus), there are easier ways to boost your chance of success than to create a sub-universe around yourself. (From another perspective, it would also seem to be a way of saying to the referee that you don't want to play this game--that you'd rather play a game in which you can always do all your magic, or all your whatever skills, instead of one in which your abilities change as you move to a new universe. There are people who don't like Multiverser because they don't want to play in different kinds of universes or scenarios--who don't want to be in a fantasy world or a sci-fi world, who don't want to have something completely unexpected tossed at them. There are games for that. This is a game for being uncertain about what the rules of the new universe are until you've explored them for yourself.) --M. J. Young Tadeusz on "Biasing out" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/biasing-out#post-8308 Fri, 28 Nov 2008 03:06:57 +0000 Tadeusz 8308@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ I don't think so. "Tall Tales of Mythica", an American Folk Tales universe, has a +100% bonus anytime you try to do something legendary which fits in with the Paul Bunyan-Pecos Bill style of the universe. You could create a Hammer and Eggshell Universe where attack powers are massively bonused, and defense powers are correspondingly weakened. Such a universe would tend to produce 'fast draw artists'. WilliamTWodium on "Biasing out" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/biasing-out#post-8307 Fri, 28 Nov 2008 03:02:52 +0000 WilliamTWodium 8307@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ Well, sure, but once the magic leaves the universe the bonus wouldn't apply anymore, so I don't see that it would affect much of anything. johnosevens on "Biasing out" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/biasing-out#post-8306 Fri, 28 Nov 2008 02:32:45 +0000 johnosevens 8306@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ Is it possible to make a sub-universe with a characteristic that says it massively bonuses attempts to cast spells out from inside it? Like, the universe heavily favors outgoing magic? Or is that just silly? WilliamTWodium on "Biasing out" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/biasing-out#post-8305 Fri, 28 Nov 2008 01:51:29 +0000 WilliamTWodium 8305@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ Still, useful if what I want to do is shapechange or heal my own wounds or rid myself of a curse. Plus, any effect targeting me would need to cross a universe boundary to get there - a potent shield. Unless we're envisioning different skills, which is quite possible. I'm thinking that my flesh counts as its own subuniverse; anything I do that extends beyond my flesh is crossing a subuniverse boundary. Limiting, but advantageous in several respects. M. J. Young on "Biasing out" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/biasing-out#post-8289 Thu, 27 Nov 2008 21:31:22 +0000 M. J. Young 8289@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ Yeah, I was thinking that if it could be done it would be one of the non-corporeality skills. Probably a 15@8 Dual World Existence would do it; but I think that even in that case, the creature would be able to use the skills of the bias of that other universe (most commonly a border supernatural) within that other universe and be treated as a visitor in this one, so he couldn't really overcome the biases of the present world except by crossing the universe boundary between the two worlds of his existence. Easy enough to work magic in the border supernatural realm, but very difficult to get that magic to pass into the natural world. --M. J. Young WilliamTWodium on "Biasing out" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/biasing-out#post-8281 Thu, 27 Nov 2008 00:58:06 +0000 WilliamTWodium 8281@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ <blockquote>(I doubt there is a bod way to do this; bod skills tend to be limited to the self or those connected to the self.)</blockquote> Could a Bod skill redefine the volume occupied by one's body as a separate subuniverse? It would be classed under 15@ Non-Physicality, for lack of a better place, unless it was a B11@10 Immunity to Physical/Metaphysical Laws or some other such shenanigan. Time in thought will reveal advantages gained by doing this, but the mechanism by which it would be accomplished is difficult to imagine. M. J. Young on "Biasing out" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/biasing-out#post-8277 Thu, 27 Nov 2008 00:15:28 +0000 M. J. Young 8277@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ Hmmmm... Well, first, it is possible to operate a computer even in a flatlined bias. The chance of success is very low, and the computer is likely to error quite a bit, but since Operate Computer is an 11@0 skill when it's entirely user friendly, the computer has a chance of turning on and doing what is asked. Programming, too, is possible, as it is an 11@1 skill. Hacking (bypass security) is not. He can use the computer, but he can't know whether the results he gets are right, and it has a high probability of crashing--shutting down abruptly without damage to itself but without saving data. Second, there is no P15@10 Do Anything skill; there is a M15@10 Do Anything. It is the equivalent of a wish, really, but serves a secondary function: if a spell does something that does not fit under any other category no matter how broadly defined, this is the place for it. I'm also not entirely sure that you could raise the bias with such a skill. You could probably create a skill that temporarily raises the mag bias, but since you can only do the skill (even by device) in a world with a curve of 25, the only place it's going to be useful is going to be in 0@25 worlds, where the device itself is going to be less than fully reliable. However, you can't talk in terms of bias when you craft a skill. To the player, bias is a technical term that describes structures within the game. To the character "bias" is a word used to recognize that worlds favor or oppose skills. The character knows that sometimes some skills don't work, and sometimes skills are more difficult, but he can't put bias levels or intensities on anything. "bias level" and "bias intensity" to the character don't mean more than the degree to which things are possible in a given world. That tells me that any skill would have to be couched in terms that mean either "make the impossible possible" or "increase the chance of success". On the latter, that's a simple 1@ blessing, and if it works in that world it will sit-mod your chance of success--but it won't change the bias, only your chance of success. On the latter, well, we've already established that the skill will only work in a world with a 25 bias curve in magic, there is nothing in the mag bias are that won't work. Still, the point was to make it increase the bias in the tech, psi, and bod bias areas--and it won't do this, either, because of PLR. Yeah, you'll see that abbreviation from time to time. It stands for Path of Least Resistance, and it means that wishes will accomplish what is wished by the simplest means possible. The fact is, anything you can do as a tech, psi, or bod skill you can also do as a mag skill--hence the Do Anything listing. So you want to make your explosives work, and you set them despite the fact that you know that for some reason this type of explosive won't work in this world. You use your M15@10 do anything to "make the explosive work", but what you get is a magic explosion in the location of the technological explosive. The fact is, you're bringing supernatural power into the universe to make it do something, and it will do what you want done, but it will be done by supernatural power. There is no psionic equivalent of a wish because in order to "do anything" in psionics, you have to be specific. You can of course do anything by means of psionics in a world with a curve of 25, but again, you will be accomplishing the results psionically. Bias is not controlled by psionics; it is controlled by two distinct but related factors: 1) the level of knowledge among the indigs somewhere in the universe; 2) the decision of the god or gods that rule that universe. These come to the same thing: if the gods have decreed that the bias is low, then the indigs don't know more than they can know under the bias; if the indigs have learned more than the bias allows, then the gods must have allowed the bias to rise. If you want to change the bias, you must either increase the level of knowledge broadly among the indigs, or get the gods to change the rules. Gods do not change the rules casually or for brief periods of time or location; they change them for long periods of time, usually very gradually. Even terribly chaotic gods maintain that much order in their universes. Your psionic skill thus is going to work much as the mag skill: your fusion rifle "works" because of a psionic create energy ability. However, since psionics doesn't allow that nondescript equivalent of a wish, you will not be able to create one device that does everything. You can probably find a way to create a subuniverse. There's actually a technological method of doing so discussed under space travel in the tech chapter. There is probably a psionic way to do it that just is not coming to mind at the moment, and I'm sure it can be done by magic. (I doubt there is a bod way to do this; bod skills tend to be limited to the self or those connected to the self.) So you could in theory create a sub-universe around yourself, and you might be able to establish the biases you want. However, very few skills will cross a sub-universe boundary at less than a -50 sit-mod penalty, so it is questionable how much benefit that would give you. You're wrong about the symbiont. Your relationship to the symbiont is a bod skill, but its relationship to a mag or psi device would be, for it, a mag or psi skill as appropriate. You can't activate a mag or psi device as a bod skill, because the energy is what defines the nature of the skill, and therefore even if this appears to be done by physical movements (holding, staring into, shaking, twirling) those are support for the skill (ritual or technique), not the performance of the skill itself. You can't bypass the fact that to work magic you have to work magic, and to perform psionics you must perform psionics. Note, too, that psionic devices are limited in what they can do by the bias intensity at level 1. Although you could in theory make your mag device a M1@2 always active device, this would mean 1) that it would not work in any universe with a curve of 2 or less and 2) that in any world whose curve was at least 3 and not at least 25 it would be constantly botching. I think I covered everything. Did I miss anything? --M. J. Young johnosevens on "Biasing out" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/biasing-out#post-8270 Wed, 26 Nov 2008 14:36:36 +0000 johnosevens 8270@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ First let me thank MJ and Scott for helping me figure out about biases and devices. At least now I know that Ric cannot turn on his laptop in a world where the Tech bias is in the mid 5@'s. He can push the button, but the machine has forgotten how to work. OK, that said, I think I've come up with something. I'm not sure whether this is brilliant, or would unmake creation, or wouldn't work at all, so let's see... Is it possible to use a Psi 15@10 Do Anything ability to - either actually or functionally - raise either the Psi or the Mag bias? That is, either actually raise it in a limited area, or functionally raise it ("treat this 10' circle as though the Mag bias were 15@10 for all purposes")? Even through the creation of a portable demi-universe with fully permeable (i.e. shoot-through friendly) barriers? Tack that Alter Reality or Create Demiplane onto a psionic device. Then bond a symbiont into your hand. Its only function is to send the signal that activates that device as a Bod ability, shaping the electrical impulse with its body in the same way that an electric eel can be electric, on a much more precise and limited scale, simulating a thought pattern using something other than actual brain matter. Now you can create your own over-the-top bubble-universe anywhere you like, so long as the Bod bias is high enough to support our little friend (remember he's activating the psionic device as a Bod ability not as a Psi 1@). Would this work? Or have I just gone silly? Or is this one of those things where, yes it would work, but your referee would slap you upside the head if you actually did it? Come to think of it, if this sort of thing were possible, Adam probably would've spotted it years ago, but I figure it's worth a shot. WilliamTWodium on "Biasing out" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/biasing-out#post-8252 Tue, 25 Nov 2008 04:00:10 +0000 WilliamTWodium 8252@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ This isn't that, though. This is more like using a hammer to make a specialized tool that you then use to build a gun. johnosevens on "Biasing out" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/biasing-out#post-8251 Tue, 25 Nov 2008 03:42:48 +0000 johnosevens 8251@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ Machines building other machines that build more of themselves give me a headache. >.> WilliamTWodium on "Biasing out" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/biasing-out#post-8242 Tue, 25 Nov 2008 02:24:50 +0000 WilliamTWodium 8242@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ This is why in Men of Psience I was very careful to place the psi bias such that devices capable of creating other devices were not possible; if they were, the Psientists could create a device with which to create a teleportative device, and the whole arms-race angle would cease to have anything to do with the verser. . . . that post would make a lot more sense if anyone were familiar with the scenario I was running in that world. M. J. Young on "Biasing out" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/biasing-out#post-8241 Tue, 25 Nov 2008 02:05:12 +0000 M. J. Young 8241@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ Backwards on the Psi devices: it may be possible to do by device what you cannot do directly. If the activation skill works, the device works. It is also possible that you cannot do by device what you can do directly, if the skill is within the curve but the activation skill for the device is not. I don't have a specific example of either--but give me a minute, I'm sure I can come up with one. Actually it's relatively simple. If you have a P1@1 Operate Psionic Detection Device skill, you would be able to operate a device that performs any psionic detection (not clairvoyant) skill. That would include for example a P3@2 detect location or detect direction--a sort of psionic Garmin, I suppose. If the curve is not at least 5, you could not do those detects directly; but the device could still do them. Let's imagine a different device, the telekinetic lifter of NagaWorld. This performs effectively a P4@3 Heavy Object TK. The skill to operate the device is a P1@7 Operate Psionic Telekinetic Device. The skill itself requires a curve of 7, but the operate device skill only works under a curve of 8 or better. Thus there will be worlds in which the skill can be done but the device will not work. If the psi device will not work because of bias, it is inert. You can detect that it is psionically attuned (if you have skill that will do so under the biases of that world), but you cannot make it do anything. If the device will work, then it will perform the skill even if such a skill is otherwise above the bias curve. The reasoning is that psionic devices manage mental energy differently from brains. They are almost technological in their logic, relating to molecular alignments of some sort akin to magnetism. In a low bias world it isn't that mental energy itself won't work, but that brains cannot produce the type of energy needed. As long as brains can still produce the type of telepathic energy needed to operate the device, the device can convert it into the type of energy necessary to perform the skill in the world. (A powerblock will prevent this, but powerblocks should be used judiciously--they need to be considered very carefully for their repercussions beyond their intended effects.) There is a separate "game" logic behind it, which is that we wanted the devices of each bias area to be distinct in ways that were appropriate to their bias area. In the psi bias area, if you can't work a device it's because you can't generate the necessary energy to power it; if you can, then you can, and the device works. Similarly, if you can't perform a skill it's because you can't generate the necessary energy to perform that skill--but a device might be able to do so. If neither you nor the device will work, then the energy cannot be created in that universe; but it is more because neither method will work than because it can't be done at all. --M. J. Young johnosevens on "Biasing out" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/biasing-out#post-8218 Sun, 23 Nov 2008 20:40:00 +0000 johnosevens 8218@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ So... Tech devices can be sabotaged before they can be repaired, repaired before they can be designed, and designed before they can be used. Psi devices either work or don't - if the skill the device is trying to do doesn't work, it doesn't matter whether your "activate device" skill works or not, the device simply can't respond. Mag devices have their freaky auto-botch range. And Symbionts ... which I increasingly want ... work halfway between psi and magic, in that you roll to activate, they roll to do, but there is no auto-botch. M. J. Young on "Biasing out" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/biasing-out#post-8217 Sun, 23 Nov 2008 19:25:45 +0000 M. J. Young 8217@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ The problem with giving you a concise answer is that devices work differently in different bias areas. In the Tech bias area, generally, but not always, the listing for a skill includes the design of any device that performs that skill. Thus for example a Tech 9@8 photoelectric generator (uses photovoltaic cells to produce electrical power, too crude to use for electronic applications such as cameras) can be designed under a curve of 17 or better. Tech devices usually follow what's called the "Standard Repair Rule", which reduces the intensity of the skill by one for each step toward "simpler" on that scale. You will find it on p82 and also on p436. Following that rule, if you have or know the design of such a photovoltaic system you can build one as a T9@7 skill; you do not need the T9@8 design skill to be able to build from the design, and you can build it in any universe with a curve of at least 16. If the curve is 15, you cannot design or build such a device, but if you have one you can modify it with a T9@6 modify skill. You can repair it with a T9@5 repair skill given a curve of 14. T9@4 is the level for sabotage, the ability to break the device intelligently. (It should be noted that smashing it might or might not disable it, but sabotaging it successfully will always do so without necessarily causing it to appear damaged.) The lowest level skill is operate, which in this case is a T9@3 skill, and enables you to use the device. Two caveats apply. The first is that it is possible to have an @0 operate skill. If you've got a solar powered calculator, the solar array is not something you operate yourself--it works simply because you have it in the light and you activate the calculator. (We'll set aside the question of whether the calculator works for this purpose.) Things like "push this button" or "turn this knob" or "open this" are all simple @0 operation systems, requiring absolutely no understanding of how the thing works or what it does to use it. Because these are @0 operation skills, they aren't biased out; that means the power supply on the calculator works (assuming a successful roll somewhere that covers it) because you don't have to have any understanding of the system to work it. Almost any technological device can have @0 operation skill, but a lot of them--such as most weapons--do not, but require some understanding of how the device does what it does in order to use it, and thus are at least @1 skills. The other caveat is that the standard repair rule itself does not drop any skill below @1. Hydraulics are a T7@2 skill, and given the available equipment you can design a hydraulic system under a curve of 9 and build it in any world where a 7@1 skill is possible; but you cannot sabotage it at less than a 7@1 skill because you must understand it to sabotage it, and unless it is specifically designed for idiot operation you must have 7@1 skill to operate it. In Psi, devices all operate as 1@ skills with there intensity connected the psionic forces they control. The logic here is that a psionic device converts the simplest of psionic energy (telepathic thought) into more complex psionic energies. Because every psionic device functions in one of those categories, whatever is within the curve will work and whatever is not within the curve will not work. If a device appears to fall into two such categories (e.g., the telekinetic force field lifter of NagaWorld is both a 1@7 telekinetic and a 1@8 force generative) it always operates at the higher bias level even if the functions can be discriminated and used separately. Mag devices are the most dangerous, because there is the double bias problem. The logic to this lies in the fact that the energy comes from outside the natural realm and so a magic device is actually doing two things: it is responding to the skill to use the device by performing the skill the device performs. Operation skills for mag devices are again all level one skills, but their intensity is based not on the power released but on the ritual required to release it. The lowest of these are foci and holy symbols, devices that are magical in the sense that they are attuned to supernatural power and can be used to channel such power more reliably; how they work does not much matter, because they do not perform specific skills but only assist in performing skills. Above that are the "always active" devices at M1@2--the intelligent sword, the oracle. Rolls are made for these to see if they are working, based on the skill of the owner/user and the bias of the world; they shut down only in flatlined worlds. The most complex are called piggyback devices, which in essence are magic devices designed to activate on the activation of some other magic device--as for example a magic belt of protection that will activate if you successfully activate a magic weapon. This is where magic is tricky, though. When you use a mag device, you perform the skill of activating the device, and your roll against your SAL determines whether the device activates, assuming it is within the bias curve of the world. However, once you have done that, the magic device itself performs the skill that does what you wanted to do. It does not need to roll; your roll determines whether it successfully releases the magic. So let's say you have a wand of fireballs. This would be a M1@8 Instant Use Activation device--point, say the word or make the movement or whatever, and the fire comes out immediately (usually RF1). It will work under a curve of 9--except that under a curve of 9, it is not possible for magic to produce controlled fire in this world, because the creation of fire is a M9@2 skill, requiring a curve of at least 11. Thus if the curve is at least 9 but not at least 11, you have successfully released magic into the world which your device cannot control--an automatic botch. The magic will do whatever the referee decides the magic will do. It might create an uncontrolled fire; it might create a cone of cold, or a magic anomaly. It might fire flower petals to cover all the ground for a hundred yards. It might explode. It is magic without control; it can do anything at all. Finally, bod devices really confuse people. The other name for bod devices is symbionts; they are creatures that become attached to other creatures and provide abilities to those host creatures through that attachment. Here there is a double skill check, but no automatic botch. The first skill check determines whether the symbiont connection skill is working--can the host get the symbiont to attempt what he wants. The second skill check is made by the symbiont--a creature in its own right who uses its own skills for its own purposes as well as to serve the host. It is also governed by the bias curve, and is something like a cross between an associate verser and a piece of equipment, and so it can do what it can do under the bias just as the verser can. Thus for example you might have a B4@3 Genus-Specific Natural Symbiont with a B8@6 skill at flying at traffic speeds (it would probably manifest itself as wings appearing to be attached to your back, the degree to which it is able to hide itself part of its skill set). You want to fly across the chasm in front of you. You roll your 4@3 symbiont skill to determine whether you can persuade the symbiont to carry you across the chasm by flying. If you are successful, it rolls its 8@6 fly at traffic speeds skill. If the curve is at least 7, your symbiont skill is possible; if it is not at least 14, the flight skill is not possible. Presumably that means the symbiont tries and fails to fly--but it's not a botch, because it's simply not possible. For what it's worth in that example, most creatures with a B8@6 Fly at Traffic Speeds skill probably also have an 8@1 Slowed Descent skill, so you have a good chance that you won't fall to your death. Of course, you might have to roll your symbiont skill again to get the symbiont to use this slowed descent skill--but if the symbiont has the ability to be aware of your situation, it might decide to do that entirely on its own, particularly given that it just failed to fly. I hope this clarifies things. I also wonder whether while I've been composing this Scott has hopped in and given a real clear simple explanation that I entirely overlooked. --M. J. Young JohnA1nut on "Biasing out" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/biasing-out#post-8213 Sun, 23 Nov 2008 18:40:43 +0000 JohnA1nut 8213@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ <blockquote>what happens if I try to use it where those conditions aren't met? </blockquote> This I can answer. Absolutely Nothing. No botch, no success, just nothing. If I put on the invisibility cloak and the bias doesn't support it, I'm just wearing a red cape. johnosevens on "Biasing out" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/biasing-out#post-8209 Sun, 23 Nov 2008 17:50:13 +0000 johnosevens 8209@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ Mostly this is a question for Scott, as I need one of his amazingly perfect and concise "I wish I had seen it before he said it" answers. How does biasing out tech devices actually work? In fact, how does biasing out anything actually work? I get that I can't cast a Possession spell in a world with a 2@5 Mag bias, but in a 2@18 I can - I understand the concept of bias curve. What I'm not clear on is how bias level and bias curve interact with devices. If the Tech bias is 5@3, can you turn on a computer? If I have one of those invisibility cloaks from Dancing Princess (I don't, but that would be cool) what conditions must exist in order for me to use it, and what happens if I try to use it where those conditions aren't met? Llarry on "Curving out electrical applications" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/curving-out-electrical-applications#post-5820 Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:57:26 +0000 Llarry 5820@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ Computer clocks are usually driven off a battery on the motherboard that trickle-charges, which allows it to keep time even when the machine is off. At work, I power my machines up first thing Monday, and turn them off last thing Friday. As one of my machines aged, it started losing time. Monday morning, our network login process included an automatic update to server time (though my other machine at the time always ended up 6 minutes fast -- *nobody* ever figured that one out...). As the week went on, it would start losing time, being multiple hours behind by Friday. Silly Hammond game: hold down a note with all the drawbars pushed in. Pull them out one at a time. Do it in the correct order, get the opening notes of the original Star Trek theme. M. J. Young on "Curving out electrical applications" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/curving-out-electrical-applications#post-5809 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:22:30 +0000 M. J. Young 5809@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ Thanks, Llarry. I'd seen that phenomenon with the clock when I was at the radio station years ago. One of my part-time DJs used to complain that the time tone sent by the ABC radio network was terribly unreliable, based on our clocks. I noted that the ABC radio network was quite accurate compared to my digital watch, and it was the clock that was hinky--but since we had two clocks, one analog and one digital, and they stayed in time with each other, I figured it had to be fluctuations in the power grid, and probably specifically in the frequency. I am suspicious that many computer clocks are also frequency-based, as I've noticed unusual fluctuations in the time on them. This makes very little sense, given that for five bucks you can buy an electronic watch accurate to within fifteen seconds a month, but apparently makers of desktop computers don't think accurate time keeping an important function. (In fairness, I might have it wrong--it might be that keeping time is a processor function, and heavy processor loads disrupt it and compensators overcompensate. Since I don't actually know how the computer clock works, my extrapolation is based entirely on observation and comparison.) New operating systems have started including an auto-update feature which at regular intervals adjusts the time to match some online service. That's not a bad feature, except that when the U.S. Government decided to change the dates for Daylight Savings Time, all of these systems "fixed" their clocks to the wrong hour. I just disabled mine; it was too much hassle, and I can fix my own clock when I need to. My watch is usually right to within fifteen seconds anyway--a throwback to my radio days. I'm embarrassed that I didn't know that about Hammond organs, though. I assumed that they were electronic (tuned RCL circuits), but it occurs to me that I've played on Hammonds that predate the rise of electronic musical instruments (the Farfisa may be the first real electronic organ, although I'm not certain--there were a number of church organs, such as the Conn, which may have been electronic prior to that, but the Farfisa was the first truly portable one of which I'm aware). Tone wheels are an interesting concept. John--Your added speed benefit suggests that the standard battery was overtaxed by the load. That is, the resistance of the motor in the car was low enough that it was readily able to draw more current from the battery than the battery could deliver. Thus although the voltage was there, the power available from the battery was insufficient. (This would show as a voltage drop on the battery, in much the same way as one sees such a drop across a battery in a car when engaging the starter motor--the current demand is greater than the battery can provide, so the "force", the voltage, is reduced. That also keeps the Voltage=CurrentxResistance formula constant in the circuit.) When you added the second battery in parallel, you maintained the voltage but increased the capacity so that when you engaged the motor the paired battery was able to meet the demand. Thus you did not have the voltage drop and the motor got its full current and operated at full strength. That should solve that mystery. --M. J. Young Llarry on "Curving out electrical applications" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/curving-out-electrical-applications#post-5808 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 12:44:15 +0000 Llarry 5808@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ To add to this ongoing electricity class: 60hz is the standard frequency for US power, but note that it's not a steady absolute. It's pretty much a daily average of what the producer puts out. There will be fluctuations as the grid reacts to increases and decreases in demand, and variations in the output of the generators. Better power companies have smoother service. A number of years ago, when troubleshooting a power issue at work, I got to see a meter which included the frequency. While I was watching, it was varying between about 57 and 62 hertz. This mainly affects things like electrically driven mechanical clocks. They should stay reasonably accurate over time, but may vary by a minute or two at different points in the day. At college, in the radio station, we had a giant (fridge-sized) clock made of big electrical relays. At midnight when they all reset at once, the sound was impressive. Niagara-Mohawk's power was fairly dirty then, so the variations over the course of a day could be in the 5+ minute range. One interesting thing that can be affected is a Hammond organ (or any similar instruments), which uses spinning metal tone wheels to create the sound. They are tuned to use 60hz, if the power is varying, so is the pitch of each note. This is the reason for a "line conditioner" (like a "Juice Goose" (tm)) which takes local power and converts it to a steady 110v/60hz output. Desparately vital if you want to use your Hammond on tour across Europe... JohnA1nut on "Curving out electrical applications" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/curving-out-electrical-applications#post-5799 Mon, 23 Jun 2008 22:13:29 +0000 JohnA1nut 5799@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ Scott, I think MJ described the pipe analogy much more accurately. I haven't studied this in about 14 years, so I'm a bit rusty on it. JohnA1nut on "Curving out electrical applications" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/curving-out-electrical-applications#post-5792 Mon, 23 Jun 2008 20:40:35 +0000 JohnA1nut 5792@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ <blockquote>John's example of the RC car that goes faster is because the higher voltage pushes more current, and thus more wattage, through the motor, which converts it to greater speed/power. On a variable speed motor, you control the speed by increasing/decreasing the voltage, which results in a change in current, which causes the motor speed to change. These are generally direct current motors, so the voltage is changed by increasing/decreasing the resistance in the circuit by putting a variable resistor in line with the motor.</blockquote> You misunderstood me MJ. The voltage was still 9 volts. They were wired parallel to increase current, but keep the voltage constant. I wanted to make the batteries last longer, the added speed was kind of a side effect. M. J. Young on "Curving out electrical applications" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/curving-out-electrical-applications#post-5791 Mon, 23 Jun 2008 20:25:55 +0000 M. J. Young 5791@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ As sometimes happens, while I was composing my long-winded response and doing several other things, several more posts hit the thread. Wall sockets have a standard voltage. That standard has risen in America from 110V to 120V and there are people pushing to raise it to 125 or 130. That's because it means lower line losses in the neighborhood. People speak of "standard current" because most people don't know enough about electricity to know that it's wrong. There is also a standard frequency of 60Hz, or cycles per second. This actually matters in connection with old style televisions, and with some clocks, as the frequency controls the number of frames per second on the television and the speed of the clocks. European standards are for 220 to 250V at 50Hz; their televisions show 25 frames per second (to our 30) and so for decades shows imported from Britain had an odd look to them. More recent technology has corrected this. The amount of current available in the system is for practical purposes not limited, but since current too great for the wiring will cause it to overheat and melt and start fires, we put circuit breakers or fuses in the lines to prevent anything from exceeding the established safe parameters. Most circuits will have 20 Amp limits; 15 was the norm fifty years ago, but wiring standards have been upgraded. 240V circuits in America are created by using two 120V circuits out of phase with each other (such that one is 120 positive when the other is 120 negative), each with its own usually 20 amp breaker. Electric ovens, heaters, and water heaters can have 30 amp breakers on each side. Usually there is also a main breaker in a home that prevents the entire house from drawing more than a stated limit. Fifty years ago this was typically fifty, but most codes now require at least one hundred amp service, and many have two hundred amp service. Current is a function of voltage over resistance; if you want to reduce the current, you increase the resistance. That's what the dimmer on your lights does. If you put too high a voltage into a device, you will drive more current through it than it can handle, and components would overheat and burn out. Again, that's because current equals voltage over resistance, and since the resistance of the device is constant, increasing the voltage will increase the current. John's example of the RC car that goes faster is because the higher voltage pushes more current, and thus more wattage, through the motor, which converts it to greater speed/power. On a variable speed motor, you control the speed by increasing/decreasing the voltage, which results in a change in current, which causes the motor speed to change. These are generally direct current motors, so the voltage is changed by increasing/decreasing the resistance in the circuit by putting a variable resistor in line with the motor. --M. J. Young M. J. Young on "Curving out electrical applications" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/curving-out-electrical-applications#post-5789 Mon, 23 Jun 2008 19:58:20 +0000 M. J. Young 5789@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ Let me fill in a few gaps. The reason that AC works better than DC in powering a city is that you can't "transform" DC--you can tamper with the voltage but always at a cost. Using a transformer, you can run a high voltage at low current through one side and get a low voltage with high current out the other, or do the opposite. The reason this matters is because of line losses. When you force water through the pipe, you lose a little water through the leaks, as it were. The more water you're forcing through the pipe, the more it leaks. Now, it's tricky doing water-to-electricity analogies because there are three factors and they interact. Voltage is the equivalent of the force behind the water, current of the volume of water per minute, and resistance to the diameter of the pipe. Just as with water, the more force you've got the more volume you're going to move, but the narrower the pipes the less volume you're going to move. However, things which generate electricity usually have a "maximum output", defined in watts, which is voltage times current. That is, even if I have a thousand pounds of pressure per square inch and a thousand gallons of water, if I've got a pipe a mile in diameter and a mile long I'm not going to get more than that much water through it. In the same way, my battery will produce 12 volts of pressure, and the amount of current that will create is dependent in part on the diameter of the piple--the resistance of the circuit--but in part by the limits of the battery. If I connect the two ends of the battery directly to each other in a short, I'll get the maximum current from the battery, but I won't get 12V/0R=infinite current. I feel like I'm drifting; I hope this is still helpful. The more current you run through the wire, the more power you lose to line losses--electricity meeting resistance in the wire and so turning to heat. Thus if you use a very high voltage and a very low current you can send large quantities of electricity longer distances, where a high current at a lower voltage will be consumed by the resistance of the wires carrying it. On the other hand, because Voltage divided by Resistance equals Current, if you have a super high voltage and enough power available, you can have some really serious accidents from it. John mentioned the Vandergraf Generator, making your hair stand up. If you get near enough to a high voltage line, you'll get the same effect--and if you get a bit nearer, you will become the shortest path to ground, and the current will spark across the gap to hit you. John did not mention that when you touch a Vandergraf Generator, you are always supposed to be standing on a thick sheet of insulation, so that you don't become a path to ground, and you're not to let go of the generator while it is running so there's no spark between it and you. High voltage looks for shortcuts to ground, and has the power to make its own. Current will spike, even if the generator can't support the power over a long term, drawing power from other points in the system. It can be fatal. Thus power companies run alternating current (AC) in extremely high voltages at extremely low current in very large wires over long distances, and then run them through transformers to bring them down to safe voltages for home use. High current is needed to heat a wire, and thus to operate such things as electric heaters, toasters, incandescent light bulbs, and even vacuum tubes and cathode ray tubes (television monitors before the recent flat screen models). High voltage is better for powerful motors and electromagnets, as it allows for higher wattage (total power) at a lower current level (and thus less heat). As to production of power, what we call batteries are usually more properly called chemical power cells. The one in your car is a battery because it is a battery of six cells combined in one case. Chemical cells produce electricity by means of an ongoing chemical reaction; the reaction is impeded by the buildup of electrical charge in the system, but connecting the ends of the battery through something enables the electrical imbalance to balance itself, and thus allows the chemical reaction to continue. Most reactions known to us produce constant output at between about 1.2 and 2.5 volts. If you connect batteries in series, that is, with the positive of one to the negative of the next, you add the voltage. That's why your car battery is 12 volts: it is composed of six "cells" with a standard output of 2V each, connected end to end. If you connect batteries in parallel, positive to positive and negative to negative and draw the power from all the positive ends to all the negative ends, you have the same voltage but increase the potential current available. Batteries can only produce direct current; you need a device to create alternating current from them. Using a generator, what determines the power output is the number of strands of wire passing through the magnetic field, the strength of the magnetic field, and the speed at which they move. (You can pass the magnetic field through the wires, but most systems move the wire and keep the magnet stationary.) I believe that a stronger magnetic field creates higher voltage and a faster movement creates higher current, but I can't be certain of that. Generators naturally produce alternating current, because the wires pass through the magnetic field first in one direction and then the other; there is a trick to designing a direct current generator which essentially involves changing the polarity of the connection as the generator turns, but it makes for a more complicated generator. Even so, current from a generator pulses, rising from zero to maximum and falling again. Most generators produce voltage which changes following a sine wave; a complete pass of the full sine wave (from zero positive through zero negative and back to zero) is one wave, and the number of waves per second in the frequency, which used to be given in Cycles Per Second (CPS) but in the mid twentieth century was renamed for a famous scientist, Hertz (Hz). Photocells work more like batteries because they produce a constant chemical reaction induced by sunlight; sound and pressure generation devices work more like generators, because they are dependent on being compressed and released and so create wave forms positive and negative which match the wave form of the compression. If you compressed most of these and held them constant they would cease producing power until they were released, although some function under constant pressure to produce constant voltage (and I don't know how). Capacitors are used in particular for what is called a stroboscopic circuit. A capacitor is in essence a large plate that holds electrons but doesn't let them go anywhere. The strobe on a camera uses a capacitor to store power equal to the voltage of the battery, but when the low-resistance bulb is dropped into the circuit it release that power at a very high current (which the battery could not match) into the bulb, causing the bulb to light brightly but using up the full power quickly so that it immediately goes out again. (Connecting the bulb to the battery would cause it to illumine more slowly and not as brightly but stay lit longer.) An inductor is a coil of wire which uses the magnetic field created by moving electrons to induce more moving electrons. The spark system in a car uses the combination of a capacitor and in inductor. The battery stores power in the capacitor; when the points close allowing the power to go to the spark plug, it passes through the inductor which, if I've got it correctly, converts part of the power into a magnetic field and then back into electricity (I can explain how that works, but it's probably already too technical) so that the pulse lasts a bit longer. Not being an automotive engineer, I'm not at all certain why that's a good thing. Capacitors and inductors are also used together to create tuned circuits. These are much more common in electronics, but they have the use in electricity of stabilizing electrical power at a desired frequency in alternating current. In essence, the impedance of a capacitor decreases with frequency, and the impedance of an inductor increases with frequency, and there is for any pair of capacitor and inductor a specific frequency at which the impedance of the capacitor equals that of the inductor. You can design a circuit based on that which will allow electricity of that frequency to pass and block electricity which is significantly off that frequency. Actually, someone can--I can't, although I've tuned such circuits in an old electronic keyboard once. (I should dig out that keyboard and see if I can fix it. It might be useful to me now.) So let me hit the curve question head on: <ul> <li>9@9 eliminates the 9@10 static power used by the Daleks in the first episode of Dr. Who; you can't have usable electricity without a return path.</li> <li>9@8 eliminates the 9@9 broadcast power used in Gamma World to power robots, and the theoretical transmission of electrical power via microwave from orbiting solar satelites to earth-based receiving stations.</li> <li>9@7 eliminates the 9@8 use of crystal radio sets (not modern electronic ones) and Marconi sets and of solar energy power generator farms and rooftop solar-electric panels.</li> <li>9@6 eliminates 9@7 systems which generate power from heat or which directly control resistance based on heat; this mostly affects industrial heating controls.</li> <li>9@5 eliminates 9@6 frequency generators (capable of producing alternating current at different frequencies or of altering the frequency of alternating current), electrical filters (as described, using an inductor and a capacitor to eliminate AC outside a specific frequency, or to block either all AC or all DC current in a circult), and thermostats (simple devices designed to activate a switch at a specified temperature).</li> <li>9@4 eliminates 9@5 transformers, capacitors, and inductors, in essence limiting power grids to a single voltage throughout and so keeping them small-scale.</li> <li>9@3 eliminates 9@4 sound and pressure systems and electric motors.</li> <li>9@2 eliminates 9@3 light bulbs, resistors (which have a specific constant resistance), circuit breakers (relay systems designed to open a switch when current reaches a critical level and then lock it open), and meters (coil systems which measure electrical values by the magnetic field produced).</li> <li>9@1 eliminates 9@2 skills including generators (described above), electric heat, and fuses (wires designed to burn up when the current running through them exceeds a specific level).</li> </ul> I think that's the list. I hope it helps. --M. J. Young JohnA1nut on "Curving out electrical applications" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/curving-out-electrical-applications#post-5788 Mon, 23 Jun 2008 19:43:47 +0000 JohnA1nut 5788@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ Of course, on an entirely different RC car, a pickup truck that I had. It ran on a 6 volt rechargeable battery pack. I wired it to a 6 volt lantern battery, expecting the same results with the previous 2 cars. Apparently, it was governed for speed, because it didn't accelerate noticeably at all. If anything, the extra weight of the battery slowed it down. So, my best guess as far as extra current and voltage is if you have extra voltage you will fry the components, but most devices won't draw anymore current than they need. JohnA1nut on "Curving out electrical applications" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/curving-out-electrical-applications#post-5787 Mon, 23 Jun 2008 19:01:58 +0000 JohnA1nut 5787@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ Another time, I took some RC cars that ran on 6 AA batteries (9 volts). I wired that in tandem with first 6 and then 12 9 volt batteries. Still 9 volts, but a lot more available current. The car with 6 batteries ran about twice as fast, and the one with 12 batteries ran EXTREMELY fast. It was too top heavy from the weight of the batteries and wouldn't corner without flipping over, but it was still cool. In this instance, the motors on the cars were not governed to run at a set speed, and so they were saying "Gimme Gimme Gimme" when it came to the current. Hence, running faster. The tape deck was governed for a certain playing speed, and so did not draw any extra current. Most devices though would be governed to run on a certain amount of current, so that shouldn't be a problem for most things. JohnA1nut on "Curving out electrical applications" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/curving-out-electrical-applications#post-5786 Mon, 23 Jun 2008 18:44:24 +0000 JohnA1nut 5786@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ I made three posts Scott, did you get all of them? <blockquote>All right. So, I might think of devices as water wheels or turbines which need a certain square footage of water to make them turn. Do you have any control over the current? I vaguely recall that wall sockets all provide a standard current; what would happen to my devices if I hooked them up to a wall on Pluto with twice that current, or a socket on Venus with half that?</blockquote> Yeah Scott, that's a pretty good way to look at it. As far as I know, the device won't take any more current than it needs. I was worried about that when I was planning the flashlight battery pack, would the extra current overload my tape deck? The teacher said that the voltage is what would overload it, but it won't take any more current than it needs. If you had the same voltage but twice the current, the device would run normally. If you had half the current and the same voltage, you would overload the circuit breaker. <blockquote>(Side question: what would happen if you gave the tape player 4.5 volts instead of three?) </blockquote> I actually wanted to see that for myself. I used an adjustable output power pack to run it one time. I kicked the voltage up to (I believe) 25 volts, and it ran fine. Then I asked the teacher about it, and he said if I had kept that up very long, I would have been buying a new tape deck. Extra current won't force its way through, extra voltage will. WilliamTWodium on "Curving out electrical applications" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/curving-out-electrical-applications#post-5785 Mon, 23 Jun 2008 18:28:41 +0000 WilliamTWodium 5785@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ All right. So, I might think of devices as water wheels or turbines which need a certain square footage of water to make them turn. Do you have any control over the current? I vaguely recall that wall sockets all provide a standard current; what would happen to my devices if I hooked them up to a wall on Pluto with twice that current, or a socket on Venus with half that? (Side question: what would happen if you gave the tape player 4.5 volts instead of three?) JohnA1nut on "Curving out electrical applications" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/curving-out-electrical-applications#post-5783 Mon, 23 Jun 2008 18:25:56 +0000 JohnA1nut 5783@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ Now, that battery in your wristwatch also puts out 1.5 volts. Two of those put out 3 volts, and technically could have ran my tape player. However, they wouldn't last long. That would be like having a Dixie cup full of water, with a 1 inch pipe running off of it. The cup would be empty before the water could be of any use. This make sense to me, I hope it makes sense to you. JohnA1nut on "Curving out electrical applications" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/curving-out-electrical-applications#post-5782 Mon, 23 Jun 2008 18:15:53 +0000 JohnA1nut 5782@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ <blockquote>Here's a question that shows off how little I know: for what things do you need high voltage, and for what things do you need high current? And, how do you control how much of each you're generating? </blockquote> I've given this a bit of thought. Did you know that AAA, AA, C and D batteries all put out 1.5 volts? I have a flashlight that will run on AA, C, or D batteries. When I was in high school, I took apart a D cell flashlight, and rewired it as a battery pack for my headset tape player. The tape player normally ran on 2 AA batteries, (3 volts) which died quickly. The D batteries in the flashlight lasted much longer (6 months, if I recall) Again, back to the pipe analogy. Think of the batteries as buckets of water. The AA batteries are 1 gallon buckets, and the D batteries are 10 gallon buckets. The headset tape player was a 1 inch pipe running off of the bucket. No matter how much water is in the bucket, it won't run through the pipe any faster, but the 10 gallon buckets will take longer to become empty. As long as the tape player is getting 3 volts (1 inch water pipe) it doesn't care where the water is coming from. Make sense? JohnA1nut on "Curving out electrical applications" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/curving-out-electrical-applications#post-5779 Mon, 23 Jun 2008 16:08:27 +0000 JohnA1nut 5779@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ <blockquote>So, without transformers, electrical power needs to be generated on location and at exactly the voltage required? That sounds limiting.</blockquote> Pretty much, yeah. <blockquote>Here's a question that shows off how little I know: for what things do you need high voltage, and for what things do you need high current? And, how do you control how much of each you're generating?</blockquote> Do you know what a Vandegraph Generator is? They have one at the science museum here in Columbus. You put your hand on it, and it sends a static charge through your body, which makes your hair stand on end. What it does is give your body a negative electrical charge, like charges repel (think pushing two magnets together) and your hairs repel each other. If you've ever done this, you're actually taking upwards of 10,000 volts, but with such low current that it is not harmful. On the other side of the coin, if you had low voltage and high current, you would be a dead man. You ever put a 9 volt battery to your tongue to see if it's working? If you could discharge every drop of current out of a 9 volt battery in one shot, it would kill you. I'm not exactly sure how this relates to your question, and I'm not exactly sure if I can answer your question. I've never given it much though, but I hope it helps. WilliamTWodium on "Curving out electrical applications" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/curving-out-electrical-applications#post-5778 Mon, 23 Jun 2008 15:54:44 +0000 WilliamTWodium 5778@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ Yes, the water-in-pipes analogy is crystal clear. So, without transformers, electrical power needs to be generated on location and at exactly the voltage required? That sounds limiting. Here's a question that shows off how little I know: for what things do you need high voltage, and for what things do you need high current? And, how do you control how much of each you're generating? Edit: Oh, gosh, no AC adapters? I have like five of those in every overnight bag I pack . . . JohnA1nut on "Curving out electrical applications" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/curving-out-electrical-applications#post-5777 Mon, 23 Jun 2008 15:43:17 +0000 JohnA1nut 5777@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ Thomas Edison and Nikola Tesla were rivals. Edison was heavy into Direct current, Tesla was heavy into Alternating current. Direct current runs in one direction, it's the kind of power you get from batteries and AC adapters. Edison tried to power a city with direct current, but found out that direct current couldn't be transmitted long distances and keep up the voltage. Alternating current does not have that problem. Direct current is generally not as powerful, but is safer. So I guess this also means that you could not have any AC to DC conversions. JohnA1nut on "Curving out electrical applications" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/curving-out-electrical-applications#post-5776 Mon, 23 Jun 2008 15:35:23 +0000 JohnA1nut 5776@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ I just realized, this is talking about electrical, not electronics. The first is the power lines and wiring up to the outlet, the later is from the outlet out. Electrical transformers use electricity inside magnetic coils to step the voltage up or down. If I recall, the trade-off is that it steps the electrical current in the opposite direction from the voltage. Compare it to running water through a 1 inch pipe, and then through a 4 inch pipe. Larger pipe can handle more water volume (greater voltage) but the same amount of water won't be under as much pressure (lower current) Does that make sense? That would mean that if they had the capability of generating electrical power, it would come to your house at the same voltage it was generated at, because it can't be stepped down. Capacitors are like rechargeable batteries. If you've ever had a piece of electrical equipment that was unplugged turn on or otherwise activate in some fashion for a moment or two, that was the capacitors discharging. They're often used with transformers to help in stepping the electrical current up or down, and to help switch it from Alternating current to Direct current. Electrical inductors, I'll be honest, I don't have much recollection of what those do. I think what all of this means, in a nutshell, is that you could not have a centralized electrical power grid. No electricity running through wires into your house. Glad to be of help Scott. I figure I owe you a few for all the questions you've answered for me. WilliamTWodium on "Curving out electrical applications" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/curving-out-electrical-applications#post-5774 Mon, 23 Jun 2008 12:15:08 +0000 WilliamTWodium 5774@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ <blockquote>Does any of this help? </blockquote> It's all golden. Thank you, this is exactly what I want: the gizmos and widgets that these skills make possible. So, from the other side - if we're saying the bias is T9@4, what can't I make given that I don't have access to transformers, capacitors, or inducters (all T9@5)? JohnA1nut on "Curving out electrical applications" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/curving-out-electrical-applications#post-5773 Mon, 23 Jun 2008 08:08:00 +0000 JohnA1nut 5773@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ Oh yeah, and just to be clear, a motor takes its power from a source outside itself (IE a battery, or some other power source) an engine generates its own power through (typically) combustion of fuel. If it is externally powered, it is a motor, if it is self-powered, it is an engine. JohnA1nut on "Curving out electrical applications" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/curving-out-electrical-applications#post-5772 Mon, 23 Jun 2008 07:53:21 +0000 JohnA1nut 5772@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ T9@4 Sound and Pressure Electrical Generation You know a push button cigarette lighter? It uses something called a (sp) Piezo electric crystal to generate the spark the lights the lighter. The crystal is pressure sensitive and generates a spark of electricity when placed under pressure. So your Zippo will still work, but your push button lighter won't. Anything which generates electricity through sound or pressure. Think of a microphone as being an electric generator that is run by the sound of your voice. T9@4 Sound Transmission and Reproduction Telephones, speakers, anything which plays sound. T9@4 Electric Motors The starter in most modern cars is an electric motor. That is powered by the battery to start the gasoline engine, and disengages itself once it does so. The gasoline engine might still work (I haven't read that far yet) but the starter wouldn't. You would have to light up the gasoline engine by some other means. Does any of this help? JohnA1nut on "Curving out electrical applications" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/curving-out-electrical-applications#post-5771 Mon, 23 Jun 2008 07:42:27 +0000 JohnA1nut 5771@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ I just woke up, that might not be too clear, let me try again. Microphones change sound into electrical impulses. Speakers change electrical impulses into sound. Indeed, you can hook a light bulb up to a speaker wire and the light bulb will flash in time with the sound the speaker is making. It's a pretty cool parlor trick if done properly. Electric motors, I would think that would be obvious. The tape deck you were using to record and listen to nature sounds in your last world? It uses all of these components, and if they are curved out, is now junk. JohnA1nut on "Curving out electrical applications" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/curving-out-electrical-applications#post-5770 Mon, 23 Jun 2008 07:28:05 +0000 JohnA1nut 5770@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ Two year technical degree in electronics. T9@4 Sound and Pressure Electrical Generation T9@4 Sound Transmission and Reproduction T9@4 Electric Motors This would be, in order, microphones, speakers, and motors. So, if you cannot do these, you could not electrically record, electrically play, or use any electric motor systems. Basically, your tape deck is now a paperweight. WilliamTWodium on "Curving out electrical applications" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/curving-out-electrical-applications#post-5769 Mon, 23 Jun 2008 05:42:28 +0000 WilliamTWodium 5769@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ I know next to nothing about electrical and electronic technology, and when I try to read over the skill descriptions for Tech levels nine and ten I find myself crossing my eyes to make the words form interesting designs. I can understand what each skill is, while I'm looking at it, but I absolutely fail at trying to extrapolate from what it is to what can be done with it. Is there any way, aside from biting the bullet and doing the research, that I can tell with reasonable expedience which electrical applications and devices are possible under a bias of, say, T9@4 and which are not?