Gaming Outpost Discussions » Tag: devices

Gaming Outpost Discussions » Tag: devices - Recent Posts http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/tags/devices Gaming Outpost Discussions » Tag: devices - Recent Posts en-US Thu, 24 May 2012 10:32:28 +0000 http://bbpress.org/?v=1.0.2 <![CDATA[Search]]> q http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/search.php M. J. Young on "Biasing out" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/biasing-out#post-8363 Tue, 02 Dec 2008 21:54:49 +0000 M. J. Young 8363@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ Some universes are divided into subuniverses; biases can be different in subuniverses. In fact, right now Graeme is in Roma in the Triverse, a universe in which Earth itself is split into three sub-universes with distinct biases, each bounded by geopolitical boundaries and stretched by political rules (e.g., a ship sailing from Roma carries Roman biases with it as long as it is on the high seas, but if it encounters a ship from Mongolchin, the Mongolchin ship is covered by Mongolchin biases). Similarly, there is one planet in the Blake's 7 universe on which the two indigenous ghosts weild great magical power, but magic does not work at all well outside there. But indeed, The Farmland (beta) in The Second Book of Worlds is exactly the kind of scenario you describe, in which human technology includes blacksmithing, but the aliens have interstellar travel and are intent on conquering these primitives among whom you find yourself. Just because the tech bias is high doesn't mean everyone knows it, as Harry says. Could you "feel" that the psi bias is low? I think so--but I think that the way you would feel it is by trying to do things and discovering that they don't work so well. Also, you would have to have a high psi bias yourself, or you really couldn't tell. Let's consider you, for example. You've got a 5@ bias at the moment; you were playing with your TK pulse. Your BRA is 2@2 and your SAL is 2@2, so that's 44% in a flatlined bias. If the bias is at least 5@, you get twice your bias level as a bonus, 54%. That's not a big deal, and if all you had to go on was that you tried the TK pulse five times and two of them worked, the statistics aren't going to tell you anything. But you as a player do have more than that: if one of those five rolls was 46 and it didn't work, you know that you're looking at a 0@ bias level, because if the bias level was 1@ you would have +2 for bias and the skill would work on a roll of 46. Also, if one of those rolls was 54 and it worked, you know that the bias level is at least 5@, because if it were lower than that that roll would have been a failure. You as a player know the roll; your character does not. Yet the player is permitted to know the rolls for his skill checks, and to make character decisions based on these, precisely because the character has that "feeling" that the player does not have. That "feeling" is apparent when your effort "should have worked" but didn't, when you did everything "right enough" that in that other world where the bias was higher it would have worked. So maybe you're not paying attention to the rolls. Maybe you, as a player, aren't really watching the fact that this number was a success in another universe but is a failure here. Maybe you're not adding your SAL and BRA to see what the minimum chance of success is, and comparing the roll to it to determine how far from that you were when it worked and when it didn't. But then, maybe your character isn't paying attention to that "feeling", either. Your "sense" of the successes and failures by the numbers on the dice convert directly to his "sense" of the ease or difficulty with which he is accomplishing things in his world. So, it's there. Oh, and the only time you benefit from a world bias that is above your own is when you are learning a new skill, and then the benefit is relatively minor (not more than +/-15 against a range of a couple hundred). If all the techology you know is the stone knife, you can't really sense that technology is high even if a flying saucer lands next to you--you don't understand enough technology to know that that's what that is. In the same way, a high psi bias means very little to you if you don't have it yourself. --M. J. Young JohnA1nut on "Biasing out" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/biasing-out#post-8347 Tue, 02 Dec 2008 05:00:06 +0000 JohnA1nut 8347@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ <blockquote>Besides, the Verser would know the Tech bias was high the instant all his Tech devices still worked.</blockquote> Well, there's always a few things that still work for the verser regardless of the bias. My first world was high psionic. My second world was flatlined for psionics. The way I tested to see if psionics worked was by throwing TK pulses. They still work in a flatline world, but not much else does. I assumed that the world was still high psionic. I could imagine a verser not realizing that the tech bias was high, based on similar circumstances. On a different note, wouldn't your character "feel" that psionics wasn't working as well? You go from a 15@10 psionic bias to a flatline bias. Wouldn't you "feel" that it was a lot more difficult? I could imagine an experienced verser getting to be able to tell the approximate psionic bias by how difficult his TK pulse was. johnosevens on "Biasing out" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/biasing-out#post-8346 Tue, 02 Dec 2008 03:13:30 +0000 johnosevens 8346@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ A1Nut - Just because the Tech bias is 15@10 doesn't mean everybody knows about it. Besides, the Verser would know the Tech bias was high the instant all his Tech devices still worked. In a world where scissors were considered high tech, even something like a wristwatch probably wouldn't - and certainly nothing with a computer in it. JohnA1nut on "Biasing out" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/biasing-out#post-8345 Tue, 02 Dec 2008 02:29:28 +0000 JohnA1nut 8345@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ I'm curious. The biases reflect the biases of the ENTIRE UNIVERSE right? So that means that, if you're on a world with a flatline tech bias, it's flatlined on EVERY SINGLE WORLD IN THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE, right? I was just thinking that could make an interesting scenario. The verser lands on a world where scissors haven't been invented yet, and thus believes that the tech bias is fairly low. However, it's actually 15@10, and the planet is invaded by Independence Day style aliens, and the verser is the only one with technology capable of defending the planet. M. J. Young on "Biasing out" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/biasing-out#post-8316 Sat, 29 Nov 2008 02:13:16 +0000 M. J. Young 8316@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ <blockquote>Is it possible to make a sub-universe with a characteristic that says it massively bonuses attempts to cast spells out from inside it? Like, the universe heavily favors outgoing magic? Or is that just silly?</blockquote> I think we have to be careful here: can who create such a sub-universe? The referee can create any sub-universe he wants, as Eric observes. The question is, what purpose does it serve him? For a character to create a sub-universe is a tremendously difficult high-bias skill in any bias area. To then define the biases of that sub-universe makes it even more difficult, more challenging. And, what is being overlooked in this: a sub-universe is part of a universe. That means when you verse out, it does not go with you, and you will have to create it afresh in the new universe. That in turn means that the bias curve of whatever bias area you're using to create your sub-universe has to be high enough to allow you to do that in this universe. But by that point, it would seem that the bias curve, at least, is high enough in a bias area in which you have demonstrated very high skills (the skill to create a sub-universe) that you probably have sufficient skills to work powerfully within that universe without trying to do something else. If your concern is that the curve is high but the level is low, thus giving you low probabilities of success on all your powerful skills (no bias bonus), there are easier ways to boost your chance of success than to create a sub-universe around yourself. (From another perspective, it would also seem to be a way of saying to the referee that you don't want to play this game--that you'd rather play a game in which you can always do all your magic, or all your whatever skills, instead of one in which your abilities change as you move to a new universe. There are people who don't like Multiverser because they don't want to play in different kinds of universes or scenarios--who don't want to be in a fantasy world or a sci-fi world, who don't want to have something completely unexpected tossed at them. There are games for that. This is a game for being uncertain about what the rules of the new universe are until you've explored them for yourself.) --M. J. Young Tadeusz on "Biasing out" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/biasing-out#post-8308 Fri, 28 Nov 2008 03:06:57 +0000 Tadeusz 8308@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ I don't think so. "Tall Tales of Mythica", an American Folk Tales universe, has a +100% bonus anytime you try to do something legendary which fits in with the Paul Bunyan-Pecos Bill style of the universe. You could create a Hammer and Eggshell Universe where attack powers are massively bonused, and defense powers are correspondingly weakened. Such a universe would tend to produce 'fast draw artists'. WilliamTWodium on "Biasing out" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/biasing-out#post-8307 Fri, 28 Nov 2008 03:02:52 +0000 WilliamTWodium 8307@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ Well, sure, but once the magic leaves the universe the bonus wouldn't apply anymore, so I don't see that it would affect much of anything. johnosevens on "Biasing out" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/biasing-out#post-8306 Fri, 28 Nov 2008 02:32:45 +0000 johnosevens 8306@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ Is it possible to make a sub-universe with a characteristic that says it massively bonuses attempts to cast spells out from inside it? Like, the universe heavily favors outgoing magic? Or is that just silly? WilliamTWodium on "Biasing out" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/biasing-out#post-8305 Fri, 28 Nov 2008 01:51:29 +0000 WilliamTWodium 8305@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ Still, useful if what I want to do is shapechange or heal my own wounds or rid myself of a curse. Plus, any effect targeting me would need to cross a universe boundary to get there - a potent shield. Unless we're envisioning different skills, which is quite possible. I'm thinking that my flesh counts as its own subuniverse; anything I do that extends beyond my flesh is crossing a subuniverse boundary. Limiting, but advantageous in several respects. M. J. Young on "Biasing out" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/biasing-out#post-8289 Thu, 27 Nov 2008 21:31:22 +0000 M. J. Young 8289@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ Yeah, I was thinking that if it could be done it would be one of the non-corporeality skills. Probably a 15@8 Dual World Existence would do it; but I think that even in that case, the creature would be able to use the skills of the bias of that other universe (most commonly a border supernatural) within that other universe and be treated as a visitor in this one, so he couldn't really overcome the biases of the present world except by crossing the universe boundary between the two worlds of his existence. Easy enough to work magic in the border supernatural realm, but very difficult to get that magic to pass into the natural world. --M. J. Young WilliamTWodium on "Biasing out" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/biasing-out#post-8281 Thu, 27 Nov 2008 00:58:06 +0000 WilliamTWodium 8281@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ <blockquote>(I doubt there is a bod way to do this; bod skills tend to be limited to the self or those connected to the self.)</blockquote> Could a Bod skill redefine the volume occupied by one's body as a separate subuniverse? It would be classed under 15@ Non-Physicality, for lack of a better place, unless it was a B11@10 Immunity to Physical/Metaphysical Laws or some other such shenanigan. Time in thought will reveal advantages gained by doing this, but the mechanism by which it would be accomplished is difficult to imagine. M. J. Young on "Biasing out" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/biasing-out#post-8277 Thu, 27 Nov 2008 00:15:28 +0000 M. J. Young 8277@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ Hmmmm... Well, first, it is possible to operate a computer even in a flatlined bias. The chance of success is very low, and the computer is likely to error quite a bit, but since Operate Computer is an 11@0 skill when it's entirely user friendly, the computer has a chance of turning on and doing what is asked. Programming, too, is possible, as it is an 11@1 skill. Hacking (bypass security) is not. He can use the computer, but he can't know whether the results he gets are right, and it has a high probability of crashing--shutting down abruptly without damage to itself but without saving data. Second, there is no P15@10 Do Anything skill; there is a M15@10 Do Anything. It is the equivalent of a wish, really, but serves a secondary function: if a spell does something that does not fit under any other category no matter how broadly defined, this is the place for it. I'm also not entirely sure that you could raise the bias with such a skill. You could probably create a skill that temporarily raises the mag bias, but since you can only do the skill (even by device) in a world with a curve of 25, the only place it's going to be useful is going to be in 0@25 worlds, where the device itself is going to be less than fully reliable. However, you can't talk in terms of bias when you craft a skill. To the player, bias is a technical term that describes structures within the game. To the character "bias" is a word used to recognize that worlds favor or oppose skills. The character knows that sometimes some skills don't work, and sometimes skills are more difficult, but he can't put bias levels or intensities on anything. "bias level" and "bias intensity" to the character don't mean more than the degree to which things are possible in a given world. That tells me that any skill would have to be couched in terms that mean either "make the impossible possible" or "increase the chance of success". On the latter, that's a simple 1@ blessing, and if it works in that world it will sit-mod your chance of success--but it won't change the bias, only your chance of success. On the latter, well, we've already established that the skill will only work in a world with a 25 bias curve in magic, there is nothing in the mag bias are that won't work. Still, the point was to make it increase the bias in the tech, psi, and bod bias areas--and it won't do this, either, because of PLR. Yeah, you'll see that abbreviation from time to time. It stands for Path of Least Resistance, and it means that wishes will accomplish what is wished by the simplest means possible. The fact is, anything you can do as a tech, psi, or bod skill you can also do as a mag skill--hence the Do Anything listing. So you want to make your explosives work, and you set them despite the fact that you know that for some reason this type of explosive won't work in this world. You use your M15@10 do anything to "make the explosive work", but what you get is a magic explosion in the location of the technological explosive. The fact is, you're bringing supernatural power into the universe to make it do something, and it will do what you want done, but it will be done by supernatural power. There is no psionic equivalent of a wish because in order to "do anything" in psionics, you have to be specific. You can of course do anything by means of psionics in a world with a curve of 25, but again, you will be accomplishing the results psionically. Bias is not controlled by psionics; it is controlled by two distinct but related factors: 1) the level of knowledge among the indigs somewhere in the universe; 2) the decision of the god or gods that rule that universe. These come to the same thing: if the gods have decreed that the bias is low, then the indigs don't know more than they can know under the bias; if the indigs have learned more than the bias allows, then the gods must have allowed the bias to rise. If you want to change the bias, you must either increase the level of knowledge broadly among the indigs, or get the gods to change the rules. Gods do not change the rules casually or for brief periods of time or location; they change them for long periods of time, usually very gradually. Even terribly chaotic gods maintain that much order in their universes. Your psionic skill thus is going to work much as the mag skill: your fusion rifle "works" because of a psionic create energy ability. However, since psionics doesn't allow that nondescript equivalent of a wish, you will not be able to create one device that does everything. You can probably find a way to create a subuniverse. There's actually a technological method of doing so discussed under space travel in the tech chapter. There is probably a psionic way to do it that just is not coming to mind at the moment, and I'm sure it can be done by magic. (I doubt there is a bod way to do this; bod skills tend to be limited to the self or those connected to the self.) So you could in theory create a sub-universe around yourself, and you might be able to establish the biases you want. However, very few skills will cross a sub-universe boundary at less than a -50 sit-mod penalty, so it is questionable how much benefit that would give you. You're wrong about the symbiont. Your relationship to the symbiont is a bod skill, but its relationship to a mag or psi device would be, for it, a mag or psi skill as appropriate. You can't activate a mag or psi device as a bod skill, because the energy is what defines the nature of the skill, and therefore even if this appears to be done by physical movements (holding, staring into, shaking, twirling) those are support for the skill (ritual or technique), not the performance of the skill itself. You can't bypass the fact that to work magic you have to work magic, and to perform psionics you must perform psionics. Note, too, that psionic devices are limited in what they can do by the bias intensity at level 1. Although you could in theory make your mag device a M1@2 always active device, this would mean 1) that it would not work in any universe with a curve of 2 or less and 2) that in any world whose curve was at least 3 and not at least 25 it would be constantly botching. I think I covered everything. Did I miss anything? --M. J. Young johnosevens on "Biasing out" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/biasing-out#post-8270 Wed, 26 Nov 2008 14:36:36 +0000 johnosevens 8270@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ First let me thank MJ and Scott for helping me figure out about biases and devices. At least now I know that Ric cannot turn on his laptop in a world where the Tech bias is in the mid 5@'s. He can push the button, but the machine has forgotten how to work. OK, that said, I think I've come up with something. I'm not sure whether this is brilliant, or would unmake creation, or wouldn't work at all, so let's see... Is it possible to use a Psi 15@10 Do Anything ability to - either actually or functionally - raise either the Psi or the Mag bias? That is, either actually raise it in a limited area, or functionally raise it ("treat this 10' circle as though the Mag bias were 15@10 for all purposes")? Even through the creation of a portable demi-universe with fully permeable (i.e. shoot-through friendly) barriers? Tack that Alter Reality or Create Demiplane onto a psionic device. Then bond a symbiont into your hand. Its only function is to send the signal that activates that device as a Bod ability, shaping the electrical impulse with its body in the same way that an electric eel can be electric, on a much more precise and limited scale, simulating a thought pattern using something other than actual brain matter. Now you can create your own over-the-top bubble-universe anywhere you like, so long as the Bod bias is high enough to support our little friend (remember he's activating the psionic device as a Bod ability not as a Psi 1@). Would this work? Or have I just gone silly? Or is this one of those things where, yes it would work, but your referee would slap you upside the head if you actually did it? Come to think of it, if this sort of thing were possible, Adam probably would've spotted it years ago, but I figure it's worth a shot. WilliamTWodium on "Biasing out" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/biasing-out#post-8252 Tue, 25 Nov 2008 04:00:10 +0000 WilliamTWodium 8252@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ This isn't that, though. This is more like using a hammer to make a specialized tool that you then use to build a gun. johnosevens on "Biasing out" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/biasing-out#post-8251 Tue, 25 Nov 2008 03:42:48 +0000 johnosevens 8251@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ Machines building other machines that build more of themselves give me a headache. >.> WilliamTWodium on "Biasing out" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/biasing-out#post-8242 Tue, 25 Nov 2008 02:24:50 +0000 WilliamTWodium 8242@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ This is why in Men of Psience I was very careful to place the psi bias such that devices capable of creating other devices were not possible; if they were, the Psientists could create a device with which to create a teleportative device, and the whole arms-race angle would cease to have anything to do with the verser. . . . that post would make a lot more sense if anyone were familiar with the scenario I was running in that world. M. J. Young on "Biasing out" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/biasing-out#post-8241 Tue, 25 Nov 2008 02:05:12 +0000 M. J. Young 8241@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ Backwards on the Psi devices: it may be possible to do by device what you cannot do directly. If the activation skill works, the device works. It is also possible that you cannot do by device what you can do directly, if the skill is within the curve but the activation skill for the device is not. I don't have a specific example of either--but give me a minute, I'm sure I can come up with one. Actually it's relatively simple. If you have a P1@1 Operate Psionic Detection Device skill, you would be able to operate a device that performs any psionic detection (not clairvoyant) skill. That would include for example a P3@2 detect location or detect direction--a sort of psionic Garmin, I suppose. If the curve is not at least 5, you could not do those detects directly; but the device could still do them. Let's imagine a different device, the telekinetic lifter of NagaWorld. This performs effectively a P4@3 Heavy Object TK. The skill to operate the device is a P1@7 Operate Psionic Telekinetic Device. The skill itself requires a curve of 7, but the operate device skill only works under a curve of 8 or better. Thus there will be worlds in which the skill can be done but the device will not work. If the psi device will not work because of bias, it is inert. You can detect that it is psionically attuned (if you have skill that will do so under the biases of that world), but you cannot make it do anything. If the device will work, then it will perform the skill even if such a skill is otherwise above the bias curve. The reasoning is that psionic devices manage mental energy differently from brains. They are almost technological in their logic, relating to molecular alignments of some sort akin to magnetism. In a low bias world it isn't that mental energy itself won't work, but that brains cannot produce the type of energy needed. As long as brains can still produce the type of telepathic energy needed to operate the device, the device can convert it into the type of energy necessary to perform the skill in the world. (A powerblock will prevent this, but powerblocks should be used judiciously--they need to be considered very carefully for their repercussions beyond their intended effects.) There is a separate "game" logic behind it, which is that we wanted the devices of each bias area to be distinct in ways that were appropriate to their bias area. In the psi bias area, if you can't work a device it's because you can't generate the necessary energy to power it; if you can, then you can, and the device works. Similarly, if you can't perform a skill it's because you can't generate the necessary energy to perform that skill--but a device might be able to do so. If neither you nor the device will work, then the energy cannot be created in that universe; but it is more because neither method will work than because it can't be done at all. --M. J. Young johnosevens on "Biasing out" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/biasing-out#post-8218 Sun, 23 Nov 2008 20:40:00 +0000 johnosevens 8218@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ So... Tech devices can be sabotaged before they can be repaired, repaired before they can be designed, and designed before they can be used. Psi devices either work or don't - if the skill the device is trying to do doesn't work, it doesn't matter whether your "activate device" skill works or not, the device simply can't respond. Mag devices have their freaky auto-botch range. And Symbionts ... which I increasingly want ... work halfway between psi and magic, in that you roll to activate, they roll to do, but there is no auto-botch. M. J. Young on "Biasing out" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/biasing-out#post-8217 Sun, 23 Nov 2008 19:25:45 +0000 M. J. Young 8217@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ The problem with giving you a concise answer is that devices work differently in different bias areas. In the Tech bias area, generally, but not always, the listing for a skill includes the design of any device that performs that skill. Thus for example a Tech 9@8 photoelectric generator (uses photovoltaic cells to produce electrical power, too crude to use for electronic applications such as cameras) can be designed under a curve of 17 or better. Tech devices usually follow what's called the "Standard Repair Rule", which reduces the intensity of the skill by one for each step toward "simpler" on that scale. You will find it on p82 and also on p436. Following that rule, if you have or know the design of such a photovoltaic system you can build one as a T9@7 skill; you do not need the T9@8 design skill to be able to build from the design, and you can build it in any universe with a curve of at least 16. If the curve is 15, you cannot design or build such a device, but if you have one you can modify it with a T9@6 modify skill. You can repair it with a T9@5 repair skill given a curve of 14. T9@4 is the level for sabotage, the ability to break the device intelligently. (It should be noted that smashing it might or might not disable it, but sabotaging it successfully will always do so without necessarily causing it to appear damaged.) The lowest level skill is operate, which in this case is a T9@3 skill, and enables you to use the device. Two caveats apply. The first is that it is possible to have an @0 operate skill. If you've got a solar powered calculator, the solar array is not something you operate yourself--it works simply because you have it in the light and you activate the calculator. (We'll set aside the question of whether the calculator works for this purpose.) Things like "push this button" or "turn this knob" or "open this" are all simple @0 operation systems, requiring absolutely no understanding of how the thing works or what it does to use it. Because these are @0 operation skills, they aren't biased out; that means the power supply on the calculator works (assuming a successful roll somewhere that covers it) because you don't have to have any understanding of the system to work it. Almost any technological device can have @0 operation skill, but a lot of them--such as most weapons--do not, but require some understanding of how the device does what it does in order to use it, and thus are at least @1 skills. The other caveat is that the standard repair rule itself does not drop any skill below @1. Hydraulics are a T7@2 skill, and given the available equipment you can design a hydraulic system under a curve of 9 and build it in any world where a 7@1 skill is possible; but you cannot sabotage it at less than a 7@1 skill because you must understand it to sabotage it, and unless it is specifically designed for idiot operation you must have 7@1 skill to operate it. In Psi, devices all operate as 1@ skills with there intensity connected the psionic forces they control. The logic here is that a psionic device converts the simplest of psionic energy (telepathic thought) into more complex psionic energies. Because every psionic device functions in one of those categories, whatever is within the curve will work and whatever is not within the curve will not work. If a device appears to fall into two such categories (e.g., the telekinetic force field lifter of NagaWorld is both a 1@7 telekinetic and a 1@8 force generative) it always operates at the higher bias level even if the functions can be discriminated and used separately. Mag devices are the most dangerous, because there is the double bias problem. The logic to this lies in the fact that the energy comes from outside the natural realm and so a magic device is actually doing two things: it is responding to the skill to use the device by performing the skill the device performs. Operation skills for mag devices are again all level one skills, but their intensity is based not on the power released but on the ritual required to release it. The lowest of these are foci and holy symbols, devices that are magical in the sense that they are attuned to supernatural power and can be used to channel such power more reliably; how they work does not much matter, because they do not perform specific skills but only assist in performing skills. Above that are the "always active" devices at M1@2--the intelligent sword, the oracle. Rolls are made for these to see if they are working, based on the skill of the owner/user and the bias of the world; they shut down only in flatlined worlds. The most complex are called piggyback devices, which in essence are magic devices designed to activate on the activation of some other magic device--as for example a magic belt of protection that will activate if you successfully activate a magic weapon. This is where magic is tricky, though. When you use a mag device, you perform the skill of activating the device, and your roll against your SAL determines whether the device activates, assuming it is within the bias curve of the world. However, once you have done that, the magic device itself performs the skill that does what you wanted to do. It does not need to roll; your roll determines whether it successfully releases the magic. So let's say you have a wand of fireballs. This would be a M1@8 Instant Use Activation device--point, say the word or make the movement or whatever, and the fire comes out immediately (usually RF1). It will work under a curve of 9--except that under a curve of 9, it is not possible for magic to produce controlled fire in this world, because the creation of fire is a M9@2 skill, requiring a curve of at least 11. Thus if the curve is at least 9 but not at least 11, you have successfully released magic into the world which your device cannot control--an automatic botch. The magic will do whatever the referee decides the magic will do. It might create an uncontrolled fire; it might create a cone of cold, or a magic anomaly. It might fire flower petals to cover all the ground for a hundred yards. It might explode. It is magic without control; it can do anything at all. Finally, bod devices really confuse people. The other name for bod devices is symbionts; they are creatures that become attached to other creatures and provide abilities to those host creatures through that attachment. Here there is a double skill check, but no automatic botch. The first skill check determines whether the symbiont connection skill is working--can the host get the symbiont to attempt what he wants. The second skill check is made by the symbiont--a creature in its own right who uses its own skills for its own purposes as well as to serve the host. It is also governed by the bias curve, and is something like a cross between an associate verser and a piece of equipment, and so it can do what it can do under the bias just as the verser can. Thus for example you might have a B4@3 Genus-Specific Natural Symbiont with a B8@6 skill at flying at traffic speeds (it would probably manifest itself as wings appearing to be attached to your back, the degree to which it is able to hide itself part of its skill set). You want to fly across the chasm in front of you. You roll your 4@3 symbiont skill to determine whether you can persuade the symbiont to carry you across the chasm by flying. If you are successful, it rolls its 8@6 fly at traffic speeds skill. If the curve is at least 7, your symbiont skill is possible; if it is not at least 14, the flight skill is not possible. Presumably that means the symbiont tries and fails to fly--but it's not a botch, because it's simply not possible. For what it's worth in that example, most creatures with a B8@6 Fly at Traffic Speeds skill probably also have an 8@1 Slowed Descent skill, so you have a good chance that you won't fall to your death. Of course, you might have to roll your symbiont skill again to get the symbiont to use this slowed descent skill--but if the symbiont has the ability to be aware of your situation, it might decide to do that entirely on its own, particularly given that it just failed to fly. I hope this clarifies things. I also wonder whether while I've been composing this Scott has hopped in and given a real clear simple explanation that I entirely overlooked. --M. J. Young JohnA1nut on "Biasing out" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/biasing-out#post-8213 Sun, 23 Nov 2008 18:40:43 +0000 JohnA1nut 8213@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ <blockquote>what happens if I try to use it where those conditions aren't met? </blockquote> This I can answer. Absolutely Nothing. No botch, no success, just nothing. If I put on the invisibility cloak and the bias doesn't support it, I'm just wearing a red cape. johnosevens on "Biasing out" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/biasing-out#post-8209 Sun, 23 Nov 2008 17:50:13 +0000 johnosevens 8209@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ Mostly this is a question for Scott, as I need one of his amazingly perfect and concise "I wish I had seen it before he said it" answers. How does biasing out tech devices actually work? In fact, how does biasing out anything actually work? I get that I can't cast a Possession spell in a world with a 2@5 Mag bias, but in a 2@18 I can - I understand the concept of bias curve. What I'm not clear on is how bias level and bias curve interact with devices. If the Tech bias is 5@3, can you turn on a computer? If I have one of those invisibility cloaks from Dancing Princess (I don't, but that would be cool) what conditions must exist in order for me to use it, and what happens if I try to use it where those conditions aren't met? M. J. Young on "Professional and Expert Use of Magic Devices" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/professional-and-expert-use-of-magic-devices#post-3018 Sun, 30 Dec 2007 20:20:46 +0000 M. J. Young 3018@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ Generally I look for whatever can be doubled or tripled effectively. There are quite a lot of devices for which repeat factor (wands) or duration (potions) can be doubled or tripled. If that's not possible, I look elsewhere. And I think that the skill ability level increase in the device creation is independent of the skill ability increase for the device user, in the same way that martial arts maneuvers pay a price for increased damage but the skill ability level and strike values can still increase the damage. (Note that weapons are specifically excluded from this, receiving damage category bonuses instead of increased base damage levels--but even so, the damage category bonuses for SAL still apply, being converted to points if not countered by damage category penalties.) Thus if I've created a wand of fire missiles which works as if a third level SAL cast the spell, that means effectively that the rate maybe the range have been tripled and I'm at +2DC; but if I learn to use it with a 3@ SAL, I triple that rate and range again and get +DC+points (because I'm targeting, so my other +DC has to come from my strike value). I think the point on the magic device creation is that one way to spend the points accrued in the ritual is to increase the power of the device as if it were the same skill used by a higher level user. Since you can achieve faster rate, greater damage, longer range, and any other such affect directly by spending points, this amounts to a shortcut for doing the same, which might get more results (possibly with some limitations, e.g., the damage category bonus limitation) more cheaply. Also, in general I work with players to decide what is doubled or tripled when they reach the next level on a skill. --M. J. Young WilliamTWodium on "Professional and Expert Use of Magic Devices" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/professional-and-expert-use-of-magic-devices#post-3013 Sun, 30 Dec 2007 03:57:43 +0000 WilliamTWodium 3013@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ I'm in seasonal internet quasi-hermitdom, but I'm peeking out to ask this question: what doubles or triples when a character's skill in operating a magical device exceeds level one? Two things prompt me to ask this question. Firstly, the time factors of many devices are either instant or non-existent (i.e., the skill check is merely a game mechanic for bias purposes), and the durations are sometimes dictated strictly by device type ("always active," "when worn/held," etc.). Those are usually the top two candidates for doubling and tripling. It's easy enough to turn to area or whatever RS controls, but that brings me to the second sticky point: Device creation rules specify sit-mods that allow the creator to create a device that will "operate at a skill level of two or three." If the device creator controls the potency of the spell effect, what's left for the device user? Two answers occur to me. The first is that there is no bonus for the character who achieves a 2@ or 3@ SAL in operating an Always Active or When Worn/Held device beyond the increased percentage chance of its operation in low-bias worlds. That's consistent with the printed rules and justifies the efforts of powerful device creators, but it seems poor compensation for the player who devised a double-doubled or triple-tripled training program for such a skill. The second answer is, perhaps the potency of the skill effect is controlled by the higher of either the user's skill or the potency inherent in the device from its creation. This rewards the efforts of the training player, but it saps some of the value from creating inherently powerful devices. A third answer is to allow both creator and user to contribute multiples, but surely that's imbalanced. Isn't it? M. J. Young on "A couple of questions on Magic" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/a-couple-of-questions-on-magic#post-858 Wed, 10 Oct 2007 16:52:21 +0000 M. J. Young 858@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ Sounds good. The distinctions between "sub-universes" and "related universes" are actually intentionally vague. The former tends to refer to lines which are crossed pretty regularly and often without recognition; the latter to distinct worlds in which a few indigs from one or the other make trips between them. The rules are otherwise much the same. Some examples of sub-universes: <ul> <li>In Blake's 7, there is one episode in which an entire planet is populated by two ghosts who have incredible magical powers within their planet and the immediate orbit around it, to the point that they can override technology, teleport others at will, and create an environment in which to place them.  Nowhere else in the entire universe (fifty-two episodes, if I recall correctly) is there any trace of magic, the world otherwise being strong in tech, psi, and bod, and the powers of these incredibly potent beings do not extend beyond that boundary. The simplest way to handle it is to make that planet its own sub-universe in which the bias rules are different.</li> <li>Graeme is currently in a world divided into three sub-universes, each ruled by different gods and having different biases, at war with each other. He has already noticed one effect of this, that the Roman technological weapons do not function as well once they are out of Roman territory.</li> <li>I think Rifts is in this group, as it has different rules in different universes, but anyone can wander between universes.</li> </ul> Examples of related universes: <ul> <li>Sliders is almost certainly a related universes story: the characters can travel to universes even that have different biases (although never to one where their operate sliding control timer device skill fails), but all of them have an earth similar enough to our own that California is geographically present.</li> <li>Narnia might be like this, if you get as far as The Magician's Nephew and discover the Wood Between the Worlds; from that border supernatural-like realm you can travel to uncounted universes, but probably not to every universe. That's a debatable point, particularly since if the wood between the worlds is a border supernatural, it makes perfect sense that all universes could be reached from it, and this analysis breaks down. However, Earth and Narnia, at least, are related universes, with a very few people very rarely traveling between them.</li> </ul> However, the distinction is minor. Whether your vision of gates here and there makes them sub-universes or related universes doesn't matter, because the rules would be the same either way. Yeah, that probably has nothing helpful in it at all, but maybe it will at least explain that the distinction I'm inclined to make doesn't matter. --M. J. Young WilliamTWodium on "A couple of questions on Magic" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/a-couple-of-questions-on-magic#post-837 Wed, 10 Oct 2007 03:11:34 +0000 WilliamTWodium 837@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ So when I see "within the bias," that means within-level&curve for indigs and within-curve for versers, and when I see "within the curve," that ignores the level regardless of who I'm talking about. Thanks a lot. The question of piggyback devices becomes a lot less important if I can have an indig in a 1@15 world use a magic book to contact an off-world magic-user. (The piggy-back scheme involved a magic device in the 1@x world whose sole purpose was to activate a piggyback device in a related 14@x sub-universe, said device having a variety of 7@ information powers regarding the location and user of the off-world triggering device. The whole set-up would have been reminiscent of a trans-universe magical pager. I'm rather proud of the idea, actually.) If we assume that the sub-universes are connected at a few points by naturally-occurring permanent gates (similar to the way layers of Hell were connected in 1st Ed. AD&D), a curve of 16 would be sufficient to allow off-world beings to visit without having to maintain gates by which to return; a 12@4 Teleport Self Out could be used to get to one of the gates (whose location would have been memorized and/or tagged in advance), and the same skill could be re-used to return home after passing through the gate. In this way we can have a 1@15 world where the mortals can use very little magic themselves - but those unwary folk who stumble across artifacts of power may find themselves calling up more than they can put down. I imagine that 1@10 Torture Spirit Power might be a valuable skill for an indig to cultivate. A curve of sixteen allows a off-world visitor a great many options that, perhaps, you would rather he not have. Edit: Oh, and I forgot to mention - one advantage of having your "summoning" (7@7) device be a book is that you can pen a very complicated and powerful M1@4 Bonus Skill Checks of In-Bound Off-World Teleporters spell for the edification of your would-be summoners. M. J. Young on "A couple of questions on Magic" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/a-couple-of-questions-on-magic#post-834 Wed, 10 Oct 2007 02:39:53 +0000 M. J. Young 834@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ Wow. The entire point of having mag device use skills at level one is to make it possible for indigs to do by magic device (e.g., gifts from the gods, secrets of the ancients) what they cannot do directly; thus what matters is that the use skill is within the bias but the effect is within the curve. So yes, anyone can use the potion, and no one can use the ring without botching. I would say that rules about magic crossing universe or sub-universe boundaries first face the same limitations as psionic skills: a severe penalty sit-mod against chance of success. Thus a piggyback device can only function in response to a contingency in another universe/sub-universe if the piggyback can function where it is and the skill roll beats the penalty. On whether a skill used in one universe/sub-universe can have its effect in another, you need to be thinking in terms of the origination point of the magic. That is, if I am standing in a magical sub-universe and I create fire and throw it across the boundary into a universe where I cannot create or control magic, it continues to exist and do its damage because it is now fire, not magic. However, if I from the same position attempt to call fire down from directly above my target, that is attempting to work magic in the other universe where it will not work. And yes, you can teleport between two universes if the originating gate is in one that can support such a gate. In theory, you could open a gate from a magical universe to a non-magical one and leave it open, so that you could pass through and pass back again, but of course anyone else could do so as well. This is a sticky point, of course, because when you are talking about working magic in the border supernatural, supernatural beings are bound by the curve of the world they are targeting; thus there would be something of a violation of the rules to create such a gate to a world where gates are impossible, at least if you were leaving it open. However, given that a botch can create such a gate in a world in which such a gate cannot be created intentionally, it is not impossible for such a gate to exist. Clairsentience also faces the universe crossing penalty. I want to say it's -50, but I use it so rarely that I can't be certain (and my dinner is sitting atop my rule book, so I can't look it up right this minute). If you give yourself a curve of 14, you can have devices which communicate off-world (M7@7), and so create the possibility not so much of summoning as of requesting the assistance of an off-world being. That would also make it worthwhile for those beings to try to assist, since they (being off-world) would be bound by the curve but not the level, and would have a lot more options than the summoner. You still would have the concern about whether they would be trapped here if a gate closed behind them, but the answer to that is that they make only the briefest of appearances and never move any significant distance from the opening of their gate. --M. J. Young WilliamTWodium on "A couple of questions on Magic" http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/topic/a-couple-of-questions-on-magic#post-821 Tue, 09 Oct 2007 03:13:41 +0000 WilliamTWodium 821@http://gamingoutpost.com/discussions/ I've got two colors of question for this thread. One is "bias & mag devices across sub-universe boundaries," and the other is "which way shall we run a werecoyote." Edit: I'm saving the werecoyote for another thread, like I always seem to do. With magic devices: I understand that while magic device operation is under level one, a device which is operated successfully while the skill it performs is above the bias curve automatically botches. I have questions concerning indigs vs. versers. Consider two devices, a Potion of Healing (performs M2@1 Limited Damage Repair) and Aladdin's Ring (performs a high-intensity 11@ summoning). Let us say that the bias is 1@11 - high enough to support any device, low enough to curve out all summonings above @1, and leaving all healing above the level but within the curve. Now, if anyone successfully uses the Ring, he botches. But can the verser use the potion? I think he can, because he'd be capable of a healing spell of that caliber. Next the bigger question: can the indig use the potion without botching? I believe he cannot - but then again, its effect is within the curve, and the only skill the indig himself is performing is within both the level and the curve. The wording in the rules doesn't resolve this directly, so I'm asking here. The questions I'm more interested in have to do with sub-universe boundaries and how they interact with these restrictions. In brief: *Can a 1@10 Piggyback Device activate contingent on the operation of a device in another sub-universe? *Can a device activated in one sub-universe take its effect in another in which that effect is above the curve? *I know it's possible to travel by time machine to a time in which the bias does not support the return trip; is it possible perform a similar feat with magical teleportation? (Technological teleportation?) To spy on an area with magical clairsentience where the bias is too low to support clairsentience (given that the location from which the spell is cast does support it)? I'm exploring methods by which beings from adjacent sub-universes can be "summoned" into locales with very low (but positive) magic bias, and answers to these questions will help immensely.