Gaming Outpost Discussions

1. 

   WilliamTWodium
   Member

   These miscellaneous questions are mostly for MJ, having to do with a game I will presently run. If Paul or Graham read this thread, I trust they will keep certain details and implications firmly in the realm of player (rather than character) knowledge. The first two questions have to due with Bah Ke'Gehn, the second two with certain magical skills.

   First, what do the Bah do for water? Having studied the setting, it seems to me that all the water in the diet of all Bah beyond the Bah Dzen has its ultimate source in the fur of the worms (who in turn synthesized it directly from the magical energies of the grass) - which suggests succulent fur, indeed. Alternatively, the Bah have no need of water, which would suggest a very strange biology and raise questions about the necessity of the yellow liquid the Tingaladek produce. The answer to this seems like it would impact description of the worms and their fur.

   Second, what units of time do the Bah possess, and how might they be measured? I recall having the scholar Graham met mention measuring time in generations, but it seems reasonable that they might also break generations into smaller chunks, perhaps based on the durations of various parts of the life cycle. Then, too, the Tolo Bran sleep in shifts, so it seems likely they have concepts for units of time on a more immediate level as well - something between a moment and stage of life. Has this come up before, perhaps in games subsequent to publication? (Is it in the book in a section I've forgotten to re-read?)

   Third, magics which prevent healing are rarely available to fantasy players (despite their frequent occurrence as plot devices), but justly feared, and I find it likely that the baddies of Bah Ke'Gehn would favor them. However, I'm not sure where to place them in the bias grid. Are they subversions of M5@9 Shields Against Magic? Or would it be more appropriate to invent an entry in the M13@ Necromantics to cover them?

   Fourth, suppose a magical item has several functions which, if they were found in separate devices, would be of several disparate biases - one M1@2 Always, two M1@3 When Worn/Held (one when worn, one when held), one M1@5 On Condition, and perhaps others. How many skills does the device require to use, and how should the skill or skills be classed?

   Sun Jun 8 2008 1:51 am #
2. 

   M. J. Young
   Moderator

   All are excellent questions, and I do not know if I have definitive answers for all.

   1. Concerning water on Bah Ke'gehn
      

      ...it seems to me that all the water in the diet of all Bah beyond the Bah Dzen has its ultimate source in the fur of the worms (who in turn synthesized it directly from the magical energies of the grass) - which suggests succulent fur, indeed. Alternatively, the Bah have no need of water, which would suggest a very strange biology and raise questions about the necessity of the yellow liquid the Tingaladek produce. The answer to this seems like it would impact description of the worms and their fur.

      I never gave much consideration to "water" as part of the scenario. From the perspective of supporting versers there, it seems something of an oversight--on the other hand, I did give the five resident versers a magic device which produces "soup", very specifically a liquid-based food, and with that need in view. I have always assumed that one way or another the Bah get all their nutritional needs from the fur, or from the tofu and milk produced by the Tingaladek. I have never perceived the fur as particularly moist or succulent, though--not really much different from, say, cotton candy with the density of sheep's wool. Such water as it contains is well contained, released by the digestive system. I've also always maintained that humans can live on the same foods, thus the digestion must release the water into the system.

      Given that the world is all fire, it is evident that there is no free water on the surface, and it never rains. If someone were to ask about the humidity, I would use a GE roll to determine that, and allow that they could condense water from the air if the roll was not too negative (and also use the same roll to determine whether humidity fluctuated).

   2. Time on Bah Ke'gehn
      

      Second, what units of time do the Bah possess, and how might they be measured? I recall having the scholar Graham met mention measuring time in generations, but it seems reasonable that they might also break generations into smaller chunks, perhaps based on the durations of various parts of the life cycle. Then, too, the Tolo Bran sleep in shifts, so it seems likely they have concepts for units of time on a more immediate level as well....

      Units of time seem necessary to us because we have to be places at times, and because we have a day/night cycle and so have in the past had to accomplish things in the day and sleep at night. The Bah do not have any of these restrictions. It's not like the walkers have something else to do--they rest when they are tired, and work when they are awake. They are, in a sense, caring for their children; they aren't going to go take in a movie on a day off. Nor do they have much in the way of places--just the homes of the higher forms. Since they are telepathic, they don't have to know whether you are home before visiting you, because they can contact you to find out where you are. I think this is part of the alien nature of the Bah: why would you need to know something like how long this person has been asleep? If he has slept enough he will awaken. Why do you need to know how long it has been since you have eaten? If you are hungry, you eat. There is nothing to inspire a need for units of time, really, so they probably don't have them.

      Now, your mileage may vary. If you see some reason for them to need units of time, use whatever units you like. I created a system of time for the Dar Koni on NagaWorld based on their needs and the environment in which they live (it divides their days into logical units). It would, I think, be completely useless to the Bah, but of some value in helping grasp what matters in a time system--in short, that the design of the time units will be consistent with the needs of the users and the confines of the environment. The latter are virtually non-existent, so the units will be designed to meet the needs of whatever Bah have a need for such units.

   3. Anti-healing magic
      

      ...magics which prevent healing are rarely available to fantasy players (despite their frequent occurrence as plot devices), but justly feared, and I find it likely that the baddies of Bah Ke'Gehn would favor them....

      This is an excellent idea, and I wish I'd thought of it. As to where on the bias charts it ought to go, the question is, how does it work?
      • Your first suggestion, 5@9 Shields Against Magic, would mean that the patient is "protected" against curatives. This would not block Psionic healing abilities (which if I recall correctly are within the Bah Psi bias) but would block a broad range of magical abilities. The character would still heal normally. As a shield, it would probably create a sit-mod against the magic, probably something like RS=SM.
      • As a necromantic, I would think that 13@4 Cause Disease would be the best bet. Penalties against the performance would convert to penalties against efforts to cure the disease, and the primary symptom of the disease is that the afflicted is immune to any curative applications other than the one targeting the disease. Since the disease has no debilitating effect, but this distinct effect, it would be close to baseline (bonused for not having the debilitating effects, penalized for having this other effect, a wash). It would also be effective against other forms of curatives, including technological ones.
      • I think, though, that we're overlooking the obvious:
        

        (B) Curse/Remove Curse
        Mag 1@8

        ...The most common use of curses in Multiverser™ is to make the character immune to skills used by others which would be beneficial to the character, such as damage curatives or disease curatives. Although such a power could be construed as a 1@9 protection from magic, it is also reasonable to place it here if it is an undesired effect, especially if it blocks skill use from other bias areas....

        That would seem on the surface to answer the question pretty directly.
      • To make it more interesting, though, and in recognition of the fact that the Mu Tahk and their ilk are constantly researching everything and particularly magic, it might make sense to have skills of all four types (including the mentioned protection from magic), because each will require a different counter--shields against magic and protection from magic would require a dispel magic, cause disease a cure disease, and curse a remove curse. That would mean that the condition would have to be diagnosed before it could be cured, and that the good guys couldn't just keep "the cure" in their arsenal.
   4. Then we have magic item operation skills.
      

      suppose a magical item has several functions which, if they were found in separate devices, would be of several disparate biases - one M1@2 Always, two M1@3 When Worn/Held (one when worn, one when held), one M1@5 On Condition, and perhaps others. How many skills does the device require to use, and how should the skill or skills be classed?

      Again the definitive answer is, it depends.

      In this case, it depends on how you perceive the device functioning. On a guess (given the specific points you have identified), it would require at least one skill for the always active function, another for the worn/held function (which could be one or two), and at least one for the on condition functions (which could again be one or more).

      To help clarify the matter of whether one skill or multiple skills of the same bias level are needed, consider a device akin to a wand which has multiple functions. You need to ask yourself whether the various functions--say the flame thrower, ice thrower, and wind generator--are all "use the wand" in different ways, or are really distinct device uses. I would look to your vision of the device. If for example all the functions are activated the "same way", that is, variations on a theme, then activating the individual functions involves better understanding of the same skill. For example, if the device has buttons and pushing different buttons gives different effects, then skill at using the device is one skill, learning the various effects part of mastering that skill. A Mythadventures D-Hopper which enables the user to travel the dimensions involves setting the device by twisting it for the desired dimension and then activating it; there is a single skill to use it, but familiarity with the dimensions is part of the process of learning to use it better. On the other hand, if the diversity of applications also involves different ways of using it--point and speak a command word for this one, twist the center for that one, push the buttons for the third--then you probably have multiple device functions (and thus multiple device use skills) in the one device. The first (bad) example which comes to mind on this is a Moog synthesizer: you have to learn how to use the oscilator circuits to create pitch and timbre, and you have to learn to use the packaging circuits to create attack, sustain, decay, and release, really two distinct skills on the same device, plus you have to learn the keyboarding skills to actually play the music, a third skill. (It's a bad example because in that case I would tie them together in a single skill since the objective is achieving a single outcome; but it's not an entirely bad example since I would permit a piano player to use his keyboarding skills to master the playing of the music and a computer programmer to use his programming skills for the oscillators and packaging controls in lieu of skill with the specific device. I would similarly permit characters to specialize, for one to be particularly good at oscillators and another at packaging and another at keyboarding, if it were appropriate.)

      As to the worn/held distinction, again it seems like you have to decide whether these are really distinct uses or two applications of the same use. The easiest example of the latter I can imagine is a device which is a force generative which can be used as a club if held in the hand or as a breastplate if donned over the shoulders. The more disparate the skills, the more likely it is that you've got multiple activation skills.

      The nature of the device itself also should be considered. After all, if it works like a djinn in a bottle, then there's really only one activation ritual, that of calling upon the djinn, which is done in various ways. That, though, would probably preclude the Always Active category, unless I'm missing something.

   Does that cover everything adequately?

   --M. J. Young

   Sun Jun 8 2008 5:47 pm #
3. 

   WilliamTWodium
   Member

   Superlative answers. They were quite useful this week. Here are more questions, plus maybe some follow-ups.

   5. The scenario anticipates that a player may wish to become a Bah, and then suggests that any spell that would make him so would transform him into the highest stage for which he meets the "attribute minimums." I assume this means "the attributes which the previous form attains immediately prior to the morph check for the form in question," but I'm not sure if these minimums include both physical and mental attributes or if only the mental ones matter. If the physical ones count as well, then what to do about the many players who don't have Flexibility scores of at least 2@3? Are they forced to begin as Toromak? If they don't count, are the player's low scores raised to meet the minimums, just as their high scores are lowered to the maximums? And just what are the "maximums" - the highest scores attained before the next morph check, or the highest scores attained by those who fail the next check and live an additional 10,000 days in the form?

   6. Followers of Bah Tor value all life. However, the only life those followers are aware of consists of other Bah. Yet, the scenario explicitly states that their reverence for life extends to the verser, who is obviously an evil demon of technology. My question is, how far does this reverence for life extend once a follower leaves Bah Ke'Gehn and arrives somewhere with more diverse life? Is he prohibited from eating carrots, subsisting instead on milk, bread, and nuts?

   4 revisited. Suppose the item in question has no activation rituals at all, but instead performs all of its functions automatically - "skill use" is strictly a mechanic, required for purposes of bias and, for some functions, relative success. Should this push me toward a genie's-lamp model, under the assumption that it's best to have a single roll that says "it works in this universe" or "it doesn't work in this universe"? Or, would it be a more faithful portrayal of the intended magic-bias/magical-device interaction to split each function into a separate skill, introducing more randomness into the determination and allowing some functions to be curved out before others? It seems as though the latter option leads to more auto-botches - if the M1@5 Device: On Condition is curved out, you can bet the M1@3 When Worn's M7@2 Detect Lie function is, also - but I'm not sure that's necessarily something to avoid.

   Wed Jun 18 2008 6:31 am #
4. 

   M. J. Young
   Moderator

   O.K., let's pick up again. Apparently the forum software does not allow the use of the "start=" function in an ordered list tag, so we'll have to do it this way.

   4. Returning to the mag device, you suggest:
      

      Suppose the item in question has no activation rituals at all, but instead performs all of its functions automatically - "skill use" is strictly a mechanic, required for purposes of bias and, for some functions, relative success.

      In this case, it strikes me that it's probably an always active device with multiple functions.

      I'm guessing that you distinguished the "worn/held" and "active on condition" skills based on the assumption that this would only do what it does when in the situation in which it can do that. I'm going to toss up a few examples.

      • In The Tuxedo, Jackie Chan is wearing a suit that automatically does certain things. If it were magical (I'm assuming that we're supposed to think it technological in the film), it would be active when worn. One of the functions is that when someone puts a cigarette in his mouth, the wearer will suddenly produce a lit lighter in one hand to light it. If this were all the device did, it would be an active on condition device; however, taking it as part of the overall function of the suit, it is one of the functions of the active when worn device, and would be rolled on that basis.
      • A magic sword which hits better than an ordinary sword is active when held. If that sword also glows if enemies are around, but only if held, it is still active when worn/held. If it glows around enemies even if not held, then it is probably always active, and it is certainly always active if it is also an intelligent sword. In that case, using it in combat is part of the same function, but is rolled for each attack for relative success purposes.

      Part of the point of having the activation skills on a bias scale is to prevent devices from working in low bias worlds--and thus also to prevent automatic botches. Certainly there is a sense in which using an active when worn/held device requires a slightly higher concept of how to use devices than using an always active device, and I can imagine a device (such as the aforementioned Tuxedo) in which the activation skill is that of the highest biased activation skill: to use this device, you must understand how to use an active on condition device, so you can use the active on condition features; that same skill covers all functions of the device. However, the device you've described seems to be totally self-operating; it runs whether or not you want it to, and it controls its own functions in response to circumstances. You're not really using it in the sense of controling what it does, but only in the sense that you are the person whose skill determines whether it works as an always active device.

   5. Oops--shame on me, I overlooked flexibility.
      The point of the rule was to prevent the verser from gaining unearned attribute increases in the morph, and to prevent him from morphing to a physically superior specimen of any bias level. I would thus say that you should ignore the flexibility score and base the form on the rest of the scores, and then have flexibility increase at the same rate as other physical attributes until it reaches 2@3 and levels off there.

      And yes, it means that the verser must have at minimum all the attribute scores that a bah would have at the moment he would morph to that form, and that any higher scores are reduced to the value they would have when he would be ready to morph to the next form. That applies to physical attributes, not non-physical ones; the verser remains just as intelligent, educated, and personable as he was. The point is that he will morph to a form for which he is not below the minimum values for any attribute, and thus is not deficient as that form of Bah, but also to a form for which he does not exceed the maximum values for any physical attribute. You can be too smart for a worm and be a worm, but you can't be too stupid to be a worm and be a worm. You can't be either too strong or too weak, though; you must be the appropriate strength for a worm.

   6. I'm assuming that this serious moral/ethical question will only arise in one of two cases: either there is a Bah associate traveling with the verser, or the verser has embraced the Bah religion. I don't see that the question would arise if you had a Bah non-player verser wandering around; he would eat what he eats.
      I would then suggest that since this is something that will confront the character in play, it is something which the character will have to consider in play, and the referee similarly will have to consider in the process of the debate. Can a Bah live on sheep's wool? How much wool would be needed for a regular diet? Certainly milk and cheese and yogurt would be considered viable choices (provided the Bah doesn't get too detailed a description of how cheese and yogurt are made). Beyond that, you're going to have an interesting basis for long discussions of the morality of eating various kinds of food.

      As I observe in my book About the Fruit, fruit-bearing plants produce fruit for the specific purpose of having animals eat it. The reason an apple tree has apples is so that some creature, like a horse or a man, will take the apple, eat it, and spread the seeds far from the tree hopefully to grow another tree. I can see this being part of the argument put forth in such a discussion. Beyond that, it may be debated as to whether trees produce more leaves than they need in much the same way that worms produce more fur than they need--that is, if eating part of this creature does not kill it, can we understand that that part is intended for us to eat?

      I'll also mention honey/nectar, and also tree sap, which leaks from some maples in the winter whether or not it is tapped.

      But I don't think Mark and Scott can provide a definitive answer between them for what any given Bah or devotee of the Bah faith would or would not be willing to eat. I think that that character will have to struggle to reach those conclusions on his own, as to just what his reverence for life includes. Remember, in his world, all life forms are forms of the same type of creature. Part of why they extend the same respect to human life is undoubtedly because they haven't really thought about it in depth. The Kwak Bran is one of their children, a Bah like them. They do not have a word for life that is not the same kind of life as they are, because there is no such thing in their world. The verser is an anomaly, a life form that is not connected to all other life forms. When the anomaly becomes the norm, the Bah will have to deal with the issue of whether his respect for life extends genuinely to carnivorous life forms, unintelligent species, and the many other creatures he will encounter, or whether it is limited to those who are of the same kind of life as himself, or something between the two.

      It could be an interesting crisis of faith. Let me know if it happens.

   I think I covered them. Are we good?

   --M. J. Young

   Thu Jun 19 2008 3:43 am #
5. 

   WilliamTWodium
   Member

   It could be an interesting crisis of faith. Let me know if it happens.

   It almost already has. It's been a busy week, and a player recently asked me - informally, but I think with the intention of passing along the question to the learned Tau Mu'Tahk of his acquaintance - what he would be able to eat once he left Bah Ke'Gehn. We were both still wrapping our heads around his recent conversion (something neither of us really expected), and I didn't know the answer to his question. I was certain, however, that the Tau Mu'Tahk (with a 3@1 SAL in his religion!) would have at the very least a thought-provoking response, and I was equally certain that I couldn't come up with something suitable on the spot. So, I did what any good referee would do: I distracted my player and continued the game with his question unanswered. I have a feeling it will come up again, though, and since I'm the final arbiter of the size of the penalties Bah Tor imposes on Graham's skills, I thought I'd bounce the question off of you.

   I think I covered them. Are we good?

   We are indeed good. In fact, we're ready for more questions! (Should I start new threads? This one seems to be working fine, but I could be overlooking good reasons in favor of fresh threads.) Cycling back to number 1 for the sake of your list code:

   1. An indig clones a verser. Is the clone an indig?

   2. A character with a professional-level General Science attempts to learn a practical (read: @1) skill for which the science is extremely relevant. To what extent would this character be justified in asking for a bonus to his learning roll based on his skill in the @0 science? It doesn't affect his bias, but should I go so far as to allow it as an example? That's a hefty boost; perhaps instead a bonus of one-half his SAL, similar to the mechanic for religion?

   3. Back to the Bah morphing thing. Let's say our verser is transformed into a walker, with his 2@ Resistance appropriately reduced to 1@4. He morphs to flyer and then to feeder, but fails the morph to scholar; his Resistance is now capped at 1@8. Eventually, after 15,000 days in his final form (an unnatural span for the Bah), he realizes he's making the indigs uncomfortable and reverses the magical transformation, regaining his human form. I understand that he retains his skill and attribute increases, but is his level two Resistance restored to him upon the change back to his original form?

   Fri Jun 20 2008 4:32 am #
6. 

   M. J. Young
   Moderator

   O.K., new questions--and the same thread is fine.

   1. An indig clones a verser. Is the clone an indig?

      My first question is, is this a technological clone or some other type?

      I am inclined to think that if someone were to take genetic material from a verser and use to create a clone--well, there is a problem. It is inherent to the concept of versing that there is scriff in the genome and it won't "age"; it is inherent to the concept of cloning that if you isolate the genome and treat it appropriately it will "age" into another specimen, a twin of the original. Thus there is at least the possibility that the cloning process will simply fail, because the scriff-infected genes will not reproduce properly to create the clone.

      Of course, that might not be the answer you want, and that doesn't have to be the answer. You can follow the pattern of the Zygote Experience, and assume that this is a scriff-infected being who will grow and age just like an indig until the moment he dies, at which time he will activate the scriff within him and enter the verse.

      Then again, you can conclude that since scriff is likely to prevent the cloning process, if the cloning process works then somehow the technique of harvesting and preparing the genome for the clone has cleansed it of scriff, and the creature is an indig.

      If the question concerns whether the clone is controlled by the bias level or only by the bias curve, I would follow the rules according to what I think the clone is--if a verser or a verser zygote, the curve, but if stripped of scriff, an level.

   2. A character with a professional-level General Science attempts to learn a practical (read: @1) skill for which the science is extremely relevant. To what extent would this character be justified in asking for a bonus to his learning roll based on his skill in the @0 science?

      That has admittedly been an unanswered question, left to the discretion of the referee. I would say that the answer is itself a question: to what degree does the general scientific knowledge support the learning of the new skill?

      Let me off the cuff suggest a simple solution. General Science means you have an understanding of how things work in a very broad and general way. My scientific knowledge, for example, means that I can describe for you the fundamentals of how to build a nuclear bomb, even though I seriously doubt I could actually build one. I know, for example, that you need to surround the core fissionable material with a primary explosive such as C4 packed in a fashion that will cause an explosion with pressure inward--but I don't actually know how to pack C4 in a way that will cause such an explosion, so I don't really know how to build the bomb. Similarly, I know that a rocket engine requires a propellant and an oxydizer, but I don't know how to select or combine these in practice. On the other hand, my understanding of a jet engine is woefully inadequate (it has something to do with intaking air and causing it to expand by superheating it, but I don't understand how it manages to use this in a directed fashion as a drive). I obviously have different levels of understanding of different specific areas of my general science.

      Let me, then, roll a skill check against my general science skill. If it succeeds at a very high level (over 80) then perhaps I already "have" the skill in the way people can learn how to do something without ever having done it, at a 1@1 SAL. If it is a successful roll over 50, I don't have the skill but I do have an example of it at the level of my skill ability level. If it is a successful roll but not that high, I get a simple +10 bonus for my science. A failed roll would mean that my science is of no help at all, and a botch would mean that I misunderstand some critical aspect of the science in a way that is going to penalize me on skill checks in this area, maybe by an amount equal to a GE roll, unless and until I either succeed in learning the skill or improve my general science SAL sufficiently to fix the mistake.

      That's just an idea consistent with the game system. Your ideas are all workable, particularly the notion of treating it like a religion bonus, so don't take mine as gospel.

   3. Let's say our verser is transformed into a walker, with his 2@ Resistance appropriately reduced to 1@4. He morphs to flyer and then to feeder, but fails the morph to scholar; his Resistance is now capped at 1@8. Eventually, after 15,000 days in his final form (an unnatural span for the Bah), he realizes he's making the indigs uncomfortable and reverses the magical transformation, regaining his human form. I understand that he retains his skill and attribute increases, but is his level two Resistance restored to him upon the change back to his original form?

      Correct. He has not lost his original attributes, only sublimated them while he was in Bah form.

   --M. J. Young

   Fri Jun 20 2008 9:23 pm #

RSS feed for this topic

Reply

You must log in to post.