An Unfamiliar Familiar Forest, John Oakmaster alone in a new world

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An Unfamiliar Familiar Forest, John Oakmaster alone in a new world

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Started 3 years ago by Oak
Latest reply from M. J. Young

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M. J. Young
Moderator

I'm walking a fine line here. I'm not really interested in prompting you to bad-mouth the Roman church on the forum. I do think that there is a way to "preach the gospel" that begins with "this is how it is different from what others teach"; there is also a way to completely antagonize someone by starting with "everything you know is wrong, and the people who taught you are trying to deceive you". So I'm hoping you can explain to me how you will be proceeding, without actually writing a polemic on the subject.

I'm also assuming that you're moving toward getting him to make a decision about faith, and I'd like to know, in the simple terms that he would grasp, what that decision entails. What would he understand you to be asking him to decide? That the Roman church is wrong? That your "new" religion is not really heresy? Or something else?

Thanks.

--M. J. Young

Sun Apr 19 2009 9:26 pm #
Oak
Member

I'm doing "this is how the gospel is different from what others teach". I'm moving toward first interesting him in, and then giving him reason to adopt, a "Five Solas" mindset toward faith and doctrine. I teach gently, offering as many thought-provoking questions as answers, using parables and illustrations as well as bald facts, and helping guide his thinking to reach these conclusions himself.

As I continue sharing, I realize in the back of my mind that there is one glaring lack that these people need provided, at least in the long term.

These people need English Bibles, and the ability to read them.

But in a world where natives can't look through binoculars, could I even successfully make a printing press? And even that might be easy compared to the challenges of making the overall population literate.

Wow.

It is a good thing that it is "Not by might, nor by power"...

And, even as these thoughts flash through my mind, I continue to faithfully share...

Mon Apr 20 2009 2:11 pm #
M. J. Young
Moderator

By the time you are emerging from the forest as the sun is setting, he wants to know why he has never heard any of this before, and how he can keep in touch with you to learn more. He can't offer you a place to stay because he doesn't have his own place, but he wants to keep in touch.

Overview of Nottingham

The "city" is home to perhaps two to two and a half thousand people.

There are two sections. The near section is the Saxon section, obviously the older village. Beyond is a new section, the French section, where the Norman wealthy live. Beyond that is the castle, a wooden fortification serving as home for the shire reeve and such troops as are stationed here.

There is a wooden bridge spanning the River Trent. There are also several water wheels powering mills that apparently process wool.

The entire town is surrounded by a trench and wooden wall as fortification. This was extended to incorporate the new section sometime within the past century or so, and parts of the old wall still exist between the French and Saxon sections.

Fields surrounding the town are devoted partly to crops and partly to sheepfarming.

Most of the standard medieval trades are represented here, including goldsmithing, fletchers, wagoneers, and more.

There is a synagogue in town in addition to a church. Nearly all buildings are made of wood.

Your hosts are headed for the French section, but your patient is in the Saxon village.

--M. J. Young

Wed Apr 22 2009 2:10 am #
Oak
Member

"These things were known long ago, but such knowledge has been repressed by the Romish church. They are more widely known in my homeland, but that is far from here. I may be the first of my people to reach these shores with such tidings."

"I move about as there is need and the LORD directs me, so it may be difficult to find me. But tell me well the path to find you, and I shall seek you out again, as the LORD wills."

I warmly thank him for the ride and the conversation, and ask the LORD's blessing upon him in benediction.

And as we pass through the near Saxon section, I depart with my guide to seek his ailing sister...

Wed Apr 22 2009 2:46 pm #
M. J. Young
Moderator

Someone is cleaning up after dinner as you reach the sister's home. They offer to get you some supper from the leftovers.

The sister is sitting in a chair, propped on one side by the wall. Her outside arm shakes as she moves it, and she seems to be drooling slightly. Your companion greets her by name, and she tries to speak in response, but her words are slurred.

--M. J. Young

Fri Apr 24 2009 8:30 am #
Oak
Member

My first suspicion is that the afflicted sister has suffered a stroke, but I am a PhD, not an MD. Thankfully, however, it is not I who needs to know, but the LORD God Almighty.

"'Peace be unto you.'"

I minister to her as to the other patients that I have visited, and pray to the LORD for her healing...

Sat Apr 25 2009 7:13 am #
M. J. Young
Moderator

You pray, and as you pray her arm steadies. When you are finished she fixes her gaze on you and says, "I did not get your name."

She stands with some difficulty. It is clear that she is still not entirely well, but significantly improved--the members of the household are marveling at her improvement.

The man who brought you here offers a bench by the fire and a spare blanket and pillow as the best accommodations he has. Food is brought from the dinner scraps, and the family expresses its gratitude.

--M. J. Young

Sun Apr 26 2009 8:02 pm #
Oak
Member

"I am John Oakmaster, though some call me 'Oak'. Well met, and praise be to the LORD for his gracious healing hand upon you."

"I did not wish to strain you with the effort of conversing earlier, but your speaking seems easier now. How long have you been afflected?"

I thankfully partake of the food, giving thanks to the LORD for it and for answering the healing petition. And I talk with them, getting to know them, and sharing to whatever degree they are interested, before eventually partaking of blanket and fire and sleep. Simple pleasures, but sometimes they are the most satisfying.

Mon Apr 27 2009 6:24 am #
M. J. Young
Moderator

The problem began about six weeks ago, when she had some sort of spell.

By morning her speech is notably improved, and she is moving around quite a bit better, helping with the chores. Breakfast is peas porridge, hot.

Word has not yet spread of this miracle, apparently. What are you plans next?

--M. J. Young

Tue Apr 28 2009 10:58 pm #
Oak
Member

If my hosts wish to talk any further, I am happy to share with them, and pray with/for them as desired.

When it is time, I take my leave, and stroll around Nottingham a bit, keeping my eyes open in particular for anyone who may be in need of healing. I also look to see if there are any craftsmen who make musical instruments, and window shop just a bit if there are.

Wed Apr 29 2009 12:42 am #
M. J. Young
Moderator

You find no such merchants in the Saxon section of the city. Saxon markets are focused on the necessities--simple clothing, food, basic ammenities such as pottery, pots, brooms, all-purpose soap.

Are you planning to wander into the Norman section of the city?

--M. J. Young

Thu May 7 2009 2:02 am #
Oak
Member

Yes, I may as well unobtrusively explore a bit while I am here. The language barrier is a concern, but the LORD knows where He wants me, and is perfectly capable of helping me overcome that barrier if He wishes. And the Normans have need of healing (both spiritual and physical) as much as anyone else.

I pray that the LORD will direct my steps toward wherever He wishes to use me, and proceed.

I also keep my eyes open to see if I can spot where my Saxon driver friend has taken his employer to.

And if nothing happens of note (someone who needs healing, etc.), then I set off on the return journey toward my lodgings with Robin's men...

Thu May 7 2009 3:05 pm #
M. J. Young
Moderator

I have a number of "guidance" prayers listed on your sheet, of which this is the best:

1@1 Request Divine Guidance M+7@7 10:00 TF requires extended reading aloud from a Bible, statement of need, both hands, answers what to do now, details in post 10 of An Unfamiliar Familiar Forest, +28SM.
I am guessing that you are not doing this, but something considerably briefer, perhaps a minute of quietly spoken prayer? I just want to be clear as to what you are doing in this regard before I determine the results.

You do recognize a clear break between the haves and the have nots, and there is little wonder that the Saxons in Robin's band complain that they are unfairly taxed. It has been nearly one and a half centuries since these people's ancestors conquered this country, but they still live like conquerors.

There are tradesmen here, including blacksmiths, carriage and wagon makers, carpenters, goldsmiths and jewelers, furriers, tailors, and other services to cater to the wealthy, including caterers. You don't at present spot any makers or dealers in musical instruments, but there is a lot to see.

--M. J. Young

Fri May 8 2009 4:07 am #
Oak
Member

I am guessing that you are not doing this, but something considerably briefer, perhaps a minute of quietly spoken prayer? I just want to be clear as to what you are doing in this regard before I determine the results.

Yes, that is a reasonable guess. :)

I proceed as described previously. If nothing happens of note (someone who needs healing, etc.), then I set off on the return journey toward my lodgings with Robin's men.

Fri May 8 2009 4:18 pm #
M. J. Young
Moderator

After you pray, you start down one of the streets. You walk a few blocks, and suddenly someone calls you from a side street. It is your driver friend; he wants to know how your prayer went.

--M. J. Young

Mon May 11 2009 6:57 pm #
Oak
Member

I smile in greeting, and walk over to meet him.

"She is much improved, thanks be to God."

"Where are you staying now? And how long will you be here?"

Tue May 12 2009 6:59 am #
M. J. Young
Moderator

"Oh, my masters have indicated that they'll be here at least a month, maybe longer. They are guests of business associates here, and the servant's quarters are comfortable enough, not too crowded even with me added. I don't have many duties, other than caring for the carriage and horses and moving their luggage, unless they need errands run, but I have to stay where they can find me most of the time. And yourself?"

--M. J. Young

Tue May 12 2009 7:33 pm #
Oak
Member

"My errand here was successful by the LORD's grace, and I have not seen anyone else in such need here."

"So I shall continue to travel from place to place as the LORD leads me, and minister to the physical and spiritual needs He puts before me."

"LORD willing, I will try to return here within the month, and have the opportunity to see you again. I enjoyed our talk during the journey here very much."

Wed May 13 2009 7:55 am #
M. J. Young
Moderator

"As did I. You have very strange ideas about God and church, John. I'd like to hear more, to see if I can understand it all."

I gather then that you are heading back into Sherwood Forest. What is your plan?

--M. J. Young

Thu May 14 2009 9:35 pm #
Oak
Member

"I would like that. Until then, fare thee well, and may the LORD bless thee, and keep thee."

I take my leave of Nottingham, and set off into Sherwood Forest once again. After walking for a time, and checking to ensure I am not being followed, I move into the forest, following the vector of my belongings left behind in Robin's camp.

As I walk, I am struck with the beauty of the forest, and grow reflective.

I begin to consider all of the extraordinary experiences I have had since beginning my journey through the multiverse. Mythic monsters and space aliens and psionic powers in my previous universe, miracles and mythic legends in this one...

And, in such a legendary English forest of olden times, I muse upon other stories passed down in my home world, of faeries and pixies, of elves and dwarves and gnomes and the like. In such a forest, I could well see how such stories could begin, and spring to life.

And, after pondering that thought for several long moments, I attempt to stretch out my telepathic senses, to discern if there are any nearby with sentient thoughts. And I pray for discernment, that the LORD would guard and guide my steps as He wills...

Fri May 15 2009 6:58 am #
M. J. Young
Moderator

By sentient thought, I'm guessing you mean that of an intelligent creature--that is, the curiosity or wariness of a deer would not count.

That being the case, your effort to detect such a creature returns no sense of such.

It is not difficult to follow the vector back toward the camp. It is not possible, however, to know the distance based on a straight line vector. The sky is darkening above the trees before you see any signs of Robin and his men.

--M. J. Young

Sat May 16 2009 3:25 am #
Oak
Member

Actually, I'll try first to detect any thought at all. If successful, then I'll skim through what I detect to see if there is anything sentient. It would be interesting in its own right to detect the thoughts of the woodland creatures, even if there are no faeries to be found.

-=-

As the daylight begins to fade, I stop and pray for an extended period of time. I recall the previous time I was alone in Sherwood Forest, seeking the way to Robin's camp, as I pray, and sing, and read Scriptures. And then I pray to once again be transported directly to Robin's camp...

Sat May 16 2009 6:13 am #
M. J. Young
Moderator

You are not able to open your mind to detect the thoughts of other creatures around you.

You pray and sing and then make your request, and as if passing through a door you suddenly step into the midst of the camp.

There is a shout of alarm, and the camp is quickly in an uproar.

--M. J. Young

Mon May 18 2009 1:56 am #
Oak
Member

I stand quietly, looking around to see if any familiar faces are nearby, while praying silently for guidance, and that the LORD would bless my interactions...

Mon May 18 2009 7:24 am #
M. J. Young
Moderator

Tuck comes lumbering over to you. "John," he says, a bit breathlessly, "better get under cover. Apparently someone--we seem to have been found."

--M. J. Young

Tue May 19 2009 4:09 am #
Oak
Member

"Would I seek to simply save myself if others are in danger? I'll stay with you, and do what can be done to help. And may the LORD be with us..."

Tue May 19 2009 4:24 pm #
M. J. Young
Moderator

You are interrupted as two of the men rush toward you, knives drawn, and one shouts, "Don't move! How did you get here?"

Tuck looks flustered. "What are you talking about? This is John, the healer the Good Lord sent to us."

The man looks a bit abashed, but does not lower his knife. "Beggin' your pardon, Friar, but he suddenly appeared, right there in our midst. How was I to know who he was? In fact, how do you know this is a man at all, and not some demon?"

"Or some angel? Did you think of that? I'm sure it's much simpler. You were probably imbibing of nature's finest, and suddenly realized he'd snuck up on you! John, I'm very sorry for all this. Apparently your woodcraft has gotten much better, if our sentries didn't spot you."

"But Friar, I was staring right there, and he suddenly appeared!"

"Aye, Friar, I saw it, too."

--M. J. Young

Wed May 20 2009 1:30 am #
Oak
Member

I smile reassuringly, and speak soothingly and peacefully.

"Nay, lads, I am not a demon, nor an angel. It is indeed quite simple. I prayed to the LORD, and the LORD brought me back to you all, by His mighty arm, to His glory alone."

"Have you not read the Holy Scripture, how Philip baptized the Ethopian eunuch, then was caught away by the Spirit of the LORD, and brought elsewhere?"

"So the LORD has done to me, both just now when I appeared before you from afar, and also the very first night I appeared here at the campfire."

Wed May 20 2009 7:25 am #
M. J. Young
Moderator

They stare at you, confused.

One of them says, "Does it really say that in the Bible, Friar?"

"Indeed it does, my boy, indeed it does. We seem to have come into an age of miracles; who would have hoped? God may have sent Robin some seriously needed help."

It can't exactly be said that they relax, but they do lower their weapons and apologize. Tuck assures them that it was quite understandable that they would be startled. "After all, no one really expects miracles, do we?"

--M. J. Young

Wed May 20 2009 11:11 pm #
Oak
Member

I smile a bit sadly, and nod thoughtfully.

"Perhaps that is one reason why they are so rare."

Thu May 21 2009 5:06 am #
M. J. Young
Moderator

"What's that? How do you mean, brother John? We don't often have saints in our midst, you know--Peter and Paul have been gone a long time. Ordinary Catholics like ourselves are hardly fit vessels for God's power, now, are we? I mean, the good Lord is kind enough to grant a few of my prayers in the care of my flock, but I would never expect him to work the sort of wonders I find in the scriptures."

--M. J. Young

Fri May 22 2009 4:12 am #
Oak
Member

"'As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.'"

"My friend, none of us at all are fit vessels for God's power. Who was Peter, but a fisherman who denied the LORD thrice? Who was Paul, but a persecutor of His church, and an accessory to the murder of Stephen?"

"It is not our own righteousness, but God's grace alone, given through His Son's atoning sacrifice alone, that makes us fit vessels in His sight for His power."

"What could be more 'ordinary' than the apostles, before the LORD chose them?"

"It is true that I am from afar, and less ordinary than some. And it is true that I am hardly Catholic, since I hold to the LORD alone, revealed through His Holy Scripture alone, and not to pope or priest."

"But when the LORD talked of faith that could move mountains, he spoke to ordinary, unfit vessels... except for His grace."

Sun Jan 31 2010 3:30 pm #
M. J. Young
Moderator

"Your modesty is all quite appropriate for a saint; but is it not true that the miracles accompanying you are not those common even among saints? You speak truly that Philip was carried from place to place by the Lord's hand, but Paul walked far more miles than that, and the Good Lord did not simply lift Peter out of prison but had the angel walk him out. Peter and Paul certainly healed many, but there is no record that Philip did so. I have seen the Lord save a few lives when I thought sure they would die, heal a few wounds which were very serious, and give strength to weary men who needed it. I have never seen the fevered arise from the bed of sickness as Peter's mother-in-law did when Jesus came to her. Is this then my fault, that I do not believe? I would rather think that it is because God has chosen special people and given them unique gifts, and my gifts are more humble than this."

--M. J. Young

Mon Feb 1 2010 12:45 am #
Oak
Member

I nod thoughtfully.

"You touch upon a mystery, which we may not fully understand in this life. For these things are both correct, are they not?"

"What saith the Scriptures?"

"On the one hand, we are all at fault before the LORD when we fall short of His holy and righteous standard for us. As we read in the first chapter of James:"

Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

"Yet the Scriptures also clearly teach that it is only through His grace that we have any ability whatsoever to follow Him. As we read in the second chapter of Ephesians:"

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

"And further, in the ninth chapter of Romans:"

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion...

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

"So the LORD does indeed choose people, but not from any fitness or righteousness or goodness they themselves possess. It is by His grace. But we are all responsible to follow His commands."

"And as we read in the second chapter of Philippians:"

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Mon Feb 1 2010 4:08 pm #
M. J. Young
Moderator

"Ah, Wycliff has done wonders for biblical literacy in England. Is that his translation?"

"But ultimately, Brother John, this matters in the practical. Should I expect God to work miracles, to heal and to deliver in those same dramatic ways that He did centuries ago? Should I expect Him to work other wonders, as He has done for you? Or would that be presumption, expecting God to do my bidding instead of submitting to His will in all things?"

--M. J. Young

Tue Feb 2 2010 12:11 am #
Oak
Member

I consider thoughtfully.

"It is indeed presumption to expect God to do our bidding. But I do not believe that it is presumption to ask God to enable us to do His bidding."

"What saith the Scriptures? In the twelfth chapter of First Corinthians, Paul tells us that the Holy Spirit gives various gifts to various members of the body, such as wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, miracles, prophecy, etc."

"'But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.'"

"The LORD does not make every part of His body a foot, or hand, or ear, or eye, but gives the parts of His body different functions according to His will."

"Now the Scriptures do record many promises and assurances that the LORD graciously gives us, and commandments He wishes us to obey. So I do not think that it is presumption to reverently claim such promises, and ask for His aid to enable us to do His will according to those promises."

"But in what manner will the LORD answer such requests? According to His will. And for different members of His body, His will may well be different."

"As for me, I believe that the LORD has brought me here as a vessel to turn hearts from the darkness of the traditions of men to the light of His Holy Scripture. 'Let he who has ears to hear, let him hear.'"

"But in answer to your practical question... I do not think it presumption to ask... but with the realization that He may well have a different role in His body for you to play than for me."

Tue Feb 2 2010 4:52 pm #
M. J. Young
Moderator

--Oops, I've got Wycliffe out of place. He follows Magna Carta by a century, and we're still a bit before that. Ignore him.

"You have much wisdom, brother.

"But when you speak of turning away from traditions, is there not also a danger in this? We have the great work of the great minds--Augustine, Athanasius, Jerome, Justin Martyr, and so many others. I would not presume to understand scripture better than they. They lived while the languages in which the scripture is written were still spoken, and the lands in which the gospel was first preached were still Roman. Should I think my meager intellectual abilities will bring me a truer answer than that taught by such great minds so close to the time of our Lord? Tradition keeps us from inventing new religions, from wandering into the errors of Arius or Marcion or Montanus. Is not tradition a good and valuable part of our faith?"

--M. J. Young

Tue Feb 2 2010 11:29 pm #
Oak
Member

Sigh. Too bad about Wycliffe. I thought I had unearthed an extremely interesting and relevant divergence point from our own history to follow up on later. ;)

"Did not the LORD Jesus Christ Himself speak of tradition? Indeed he did, as the seventh chapter of Mark tells us..."

And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

"Therefore, we are instructed in what we must keep, which is the commandment of God. And we are also instructed in what we must reject, which is any tradition which conflicts with the commandment of God."

"And how do we know the commandment of God? Through the Holy Scripture. As Paul writes in the third chapter of the second letter to Timothy:"

Thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

"Therefore, the Holy Scriptures alone contain the commandments of God. So any teaching or tradition must be examined to ensure that it follows Holy Scripture. And any that does not, whether from ancient tradition, or from priest, or from pope, must be rejected, lest we turn away from following God's commandment."

Wed Feb 3 2010 5:00 am #
M. J. Young
Moderator

"Well, I'm not sure Rome would agree with that; but then, maybe the Waldensians have something we should consider. Are you with them?"

--M. J. Young

Thu Feb 4 2010 3:44 am #
Oak
Member

"Sadly, I also doubt that Rome would agree with that. But for those who would elevate tradition over the commandment of God, the teaching of the LORD Jesus Christ is quite clear:"

He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men...

"'He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.'"

"As for the Waldensians, I have not yet had the honour of meeting with them. But from what I have heard of them and their faithfulness in following God's commandments, I am indeed with them."

Thu Feb 4 2010 6:05 am #
M. J. Young
Moderator

"Indeed, I haven't met them myself, being here in England with my own flock to tend. But word is they are all laymen, most uneducated, who teach the Bible, but they don't always get it right, and so the Church wants them to be guided and directed by the more educated priests wherever they go. After all, it does say that the Lord gave some to be the preachers--apostles like Peter and Paul, prophets like Ananais, evangelists like Philip, and in our own time pastors in our churches and teachers in our universities. You obviously are an educated man; but if the Waldensians want to preach and teach, shouldn't they seek the education needed to serve in one of these holy offices?"

--M. J. Young

Thu Feb 4 2010 10:25 pm #
Oak
Member

"Only if those providing the education faithfully instruct according to Holy Scripture as the sole authority of sound doctrine."

"But if the teachers and priests, or even the very Church itself, chooses to elevate any commandment of man over the commandment of God, as indeed they do, then these Waldensians do well to reject such 'education'."

"Indeed, that passage in second Timothy just mentioned is most eloquent as to the sufficiency of Holy Scripture."

"And what is it that is able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith? What is given by inspiration of God? What is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness? What enables the man of God to be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works?"

"Not tradition. Not ancients. Not priest. Not pope. Not Rome. Not Church. Not any commandment of men. But the commandment of God alone, passed onto us today through the Holy Scriptures alone."

Thu Feb 4 2010 11:58 pm #
M. J. Young
Moderator

"You make a good argument, brother. But then, my own Greek and Hebrew are not so good; I would not trust myself to know the meaning of the text without the aid of my teachers. Perhaps the Lord has given you light into the Holy Scriptures to help you find the true meaning, but it is not easy come to the truth without the help of another. Indeed, even you have helped me understand these scriptures--but does that not then make you a teacher alongside these others? No, brother, we need teachers who can correctly interpret the scripture to us; and what are the traditions but the records of those teachers who have done so in the generations before us?"

--M. J. Young

Sat Feb 6 2010 1:43 am #
Oak
Member

"Indeed, my friend, we do indeed need teachers who can correctly interpret the Holy Scripture to us. Paul agrees as well, as he writes in the fourth chapter of Ephesians:"

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ...

"But the Holy Scriptures also make clear that there are those who forsake the commandments of God for the commandments of men."

"And what saith the Holy Scriptures of such? 'Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.'"

"So then, the Holy Scriptures teach that we do need teachers who can correctly interpret the Holy Scripture to us, as you say."

"And how can we tell whether a teaching correctly interprets the Holy Scripture? By comparing Holy Scripture with Holy Scripture to ensure that it is indeed a correct interpretation."

"But it is still the Holy Scripture that is the sole authority."

I pause, looking kindly yet curiously at him.

"Let me ask you a question, my dear friend Tuck."

"As you look at the teachings of the Romish church, do you truly see all of them as coming from the LORD? Can you find all of them as commandments of God in the Holy Scripture? Or are any of them merely commandments of men?"

"Please think well, and tell me truly, and yourself also. Have you ever pondered such a question, and wondered?"

Sat Feb 6 2010 5:32 am #
M. J. Young
Moderator

Just as an aside, your bible quotes have the look of being cut-and-paste. Are you typing them from memory, or are you remembering them correctly and then copying them for convenience/speed, or are you in character reading them to Tuck from your bible?

"Well--" he hems a bit.

"Take the Trinity. Do I see in the Bible where it says that God is three persons of one substance, or whatever the formula is? I can't say that I do. What I see is some confusing texts that make be believe that Jesus and the Father and the Spirit are all God, but there is only one God, but they aren't all really the same person. So the great doctors of the church have put this together into something called the Trinity, which is not really stated in the Bible but seems to be the truth that the Bible teaches, doesn't it? There might be many truths like that, things that the more learned have come to understand as being taught by the Bible which are beyond my grasp. Can you honestly tell me that any of the teachings of the Catholic Church are not taught in scripture? I don't think I'm educated enough to be certain of that."

--M. J. Young

Mon Feb 8 2010 1:59 am #

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