An Unfamiliar Familiar Forest, John Oakmaster alone in a new world

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An Unfamiliar Familiar Forest, John Oakmaster alone in a new world

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Started 2 years ago by Oak
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Oak
Member

I was assuming that my Perfect Memory would do the job. If not, then I will read them to Tuck from my Bible. :)

"I am satisfied with the doctrine of the Trinity from Scripture. To take two examples, from the first chapter of Genesis and the last chapter of Matthew respectively:"

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost...

"However, I can indeed think of a few Catholic Church teachings that I do not see from Holy Scripture."

"For example... let us examine the Virgin Mary, and the Saints. How would you describe the Catholic Church teachings concerning them? Do you think this doctrine is supported by Holy Scripture?"

Mon Feb 8 2010 4:02 pm #
M. J. Young
Moderator

Ah! Perfect Memory is a skill, and if you're using it we have to roll it. You've got a 1@3 SAL+20 SM for self-referential mind reading+2x6@ psi bias+2@1 BRA=66% chance that it will work, and I can bonus for things you got almost right by your own memory, but at least until you reach professional level with it we can't "assume" it works."

"The church teaches many things concerning the Mary, Mother of God. Certainly that's in scripture--she gave birth to Jesus, who is God incarnate. She was said to be full of grace, and what is grace but the gift God would share with all of us? What is it that you think is untrue about the church's teaching concerning Mary?

"As to the saints, which particular saints did you have in mind? We know that Peter and Paul and John and the other writers of the New Testament were inspired by God, that their words were the very message of God to us. It teaches us that holy men of God can deliver God's message to us, God-breathed, I think it says. What about the church's teaching about the saints do you question?"

--M. J. Young

Tue Feb 9 2010 12:23 am #
Oak
Member

OOC: I am definitely quite familiar with the passages I am quoting, but without successful Perfect Memory I would be paraphrasing a bit more rather than giving exact quotes, and I would not always be as precise as to exactly which book and chapter a given passage was from. So I would probably be eligible for some bonuses... :)

I consider his questions thoughtfully, knowing that theological expertise was not a given in this day and age, and wondering what his state of knowledge is.

"How would you describe church teaching about them, and the roles they have in a believer's life today?"

Tue Feb 9 2010 5:51 pm #
M. J. Young
Moderator

For the present, then, so as not to bog down the game with the rolls (it would be different at the table, where you could try to quote the passage and then decide whether it was close enough, or you wanted to pull out your Bible or roll for perfect memory) we'll assume that your quotations are close enough.

"The roles Mary and the Apostles play in our lives today? Well, for one thing, they have given us the truth, the scriptures, and founded the church through which we have preserved our tradition, including the tradition of which books are genuinely those of our Apostles. They also are there to help us, just as you and I are here to help Robin's men and their families and the people of England, not to say each other; they can pray for us just as we pray for each other. But then, they are also to be revered--I wouldn't expect to have a casual conversation, or even a discussion like ours, with Paul. If he spoke to me, I would take notes; I certainly wouldn't argue."

--M. J. Young

Thu Feb 11 2010 2:17 am #
Oak
Member

I listen thoughtfully.

"I am aware that the seventh chapter of Hebrews speaks of the role of Jesus Christ as our high priest, including:"

Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

"And I am aware that the eighth chapter of Romans speaks of the Spirit and of the Son in making intercession for us:"

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

"But I am not aware of Holy Scripture saying that we are to petition dead believers to intercede for us with the Father, or with the Son, or with the Spirit. For Jesus Christ is already our Intercessor, is He not?"

Thu Feb 11 2010 8:28 am #
M. J. Young
Moderator

"Well, brother, first of all, I'm not sure I like your suggestion that the saints are 'dead'. Is it not our hope that as Christ lives, so they too live with Him? And I think that the scripture does tell us that we ought to pray for each other. If you asked me to pray for you, I certainly would, and I know you have been making intercession on behalf of the sick throughout Nottinghamshire, and would no doubt do so on my behalf as well. I assure you, were the Apostle Peter to ask me to pray for him (not that I can imagine or would suggest that he where he now lives would ever need my intercession) I would do so in an instant. Do you think he would be so self-important that he would not similarly do so for me? Or do you think he truly is dead, and unable to pray on our behalves, and that the hope of the resurrection is--well, I know you don't believe that, brother; I won't even say such a blasphemous thing."

--M. J. Young

Fri Feb 12 2010 12:40 am #
Oak
Member

I nod humbly.

"Ah, please forgive my slow tongue in this land."

"When I say that the saints are dead, I speak not against the hope of their resurrection and their eternal life through Christ, or against ours."

"But at this moment, do they still walk the earth? I think not. For do not the Holy Scriptures speak of Christ as the judge of 'the quick and the dead'?"

"And even when Paul writes of our hope in the resurrection, how does he describe it? We read in the fifteenth chapter of First Corinthians:"

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

"If he says the dead shall be raised, then I trust I do no violence to Holy Scripture, nor disrespect to the apostles, nor denial of our hope of the resurrection, when I say that the apostles are currently not among the living on this earth, but are currently among the dead."

"If then the bodies of the apostles are not currently alive and walking among us, how then do you seek to present a petition to them for their intercession upon your behalf?"

"The Scriptures indeed encourage us to pray for one another. But you asking me to pray prayers of intercession for you, or me asking you to pray such prayers for me, is an entirely different thing than supposing we can communicate with those whose bodies have already perished from this earth."

"Jesus Christ indeed spoke with Moses and Elijah, but He is God."

"Now, does Holy Scripture ever speak of the living, other than the Son of God, speaking with the dead? Indeed it does, when King Saul sought to speak with Samuel. But Saul sought to do so through sinful divination, which Holy Scripture speaks quite clearly against."

"And, without warrant from Holy Scripture, do we dare suppose that those who have died in the LORD before us are somehow able to hear our petitions, and intercede for us with God? Do we dare say that their presence or knowledge is so wide as to hear whatever petitions are made from wherever they are made?"

"The Holy Scripture speaks very clearly, for there is only One who has such power, and presence, and knowledge. He is a jealous God, and there is none else. He will not share His glory with another. And, apart from fellow believers living still upon this earth, what intercessors does Holy Scripture speak of, except the Son alone, and the Spirit alone?"

As I listen to his response, I silently pray for the LORD to open his heart to receive the truth of Holy Scripture...

Fri Feb 12 2010 6:47 am #
M. J. Young
Moderator

As I listen to his response, I silently pray for the LORD to open his heart to receive the truth of Holy Scripture...
This being a prayer requires me to do the numbers on it. I'm assuming that you are not praying aloud, that your prayer probably is not extending past a minute, that you are not folding hands or bowing head or doing any other body-involved indicators of prayer; but I'm going to delay running numbers on it until I give you the chance to put such form to this prayer as you think it has--unless it is, as one of John Cross' recent prayers, just that you are hoping and don't really mean it as a prayer per se.

Tuck is very uncertain, but he thinks for a moment. "Doesn't Paul also say," he begins hesitantly, "that he looks forward to being absent from the body because that would mean he is at home with the Lord?" Gaining a bit of confidence, he continues, "Yes, and somewhere, too, that if our earthly tabernacles are destroyed we move into the heavenly buildings. That sounds like we have an immediate hope, that life does not end but continues with God from the moment of death. Do you think it is not like that?"

--M. J. Young

Mon Feb 15 2010 3:30 am #
Oak
Member

Your summation of my prayer mechanics seems reasonable...

"No, dear Tuck, I agree. Were not Moses and Elijah able to converse with Jesus Christ? And forget not also His words on the cross to the dying thief:"

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

"If Jesus Christ assured that dying thief that he would be with Him 'today', then what could be clearer? That assurance is our assurance as well."

"But note that being home with the LORD indeed means that the saints, including the apostles and Mary, are absent from the body. Therefore, we are unable to petition them, and they are unable to hear us. So they cannot serve as our intercessors, regardless of what Rome teaches. Apart from those fellow believers who are still present in the body, Holy Scripture clearly teaches that our only intercessors are the Son and the Spirit."

I consider thoughtfully.

"Since we are on the subject, my friend, what does Rome teach concerning what happens after we die?"

Mon Feb 15 2010 6:30 am #
M. J. Young
Moderator

"Well, I'm not sure you're right, and that means I'm not sure the Church is wrong, and I think in such a case it's safer, spiritually speaking, to give the benefit of the doubt to the church. I seem to recall mention in John's Apocalypse something about the saints under the altar watching us, but I could have it wrong. I can't know everything, and you can't know everything, and at some point we have to trust the people who should know."

"Well, it's obvious that when we die we face the judgment seat of Christ. After that, well, that's up to Him, isn't it?"

--M. J. Young

Tue Feb 16 2010 12:35 am #
Oak
Member

"If we are given a choice between the commandment of the LORD and the commandment of men, and choose the latter, do we not worship the LORD in vain? For this is what that Scripture we have already discussed plainly states."

"And how would you put your trust in the people of the church 'who should know', rather than in the Word of God? Who were those who were chief in opposing our Lord and Savior upon this earth, and in seeking His crucifixion, if not the leaders of the church, the very ones who should know? Who were those who were chief in opposing Peter, and Paul, if not the leaders of the church?"

"We cannot know everything, but the LORD does. So it is to the Word of God alone that we must seek confirmation of what is right and what is wrong. As it is written in the eight chapter of the prophet Isaiah:"

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

"Think well, as the noble minded Bereans from the seventeenth chapter of Acts, who 'received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.'"

"Should we not do the same, friend Tuck?"

Fri Feb 26 2010 11:11 pm #
M. J. Young
Moderator

"I certainly agree that we should examine the scriptures to come to the truth; but I am not so confident of my own intellect as to say that I would know better than, say, our own recent archbishop Anselm, may he rest in peace. There have been some great minds even in this century--Abelard, Bernard, Peter Lombard. I don't pretend that I can understand everything they wrote; I won't even pretend I've read it all. But if I think that my understanding of the Bible is better than Will Scarlet's or John Little's, should I not also see that the church has men whose understanding is superior to mine? Or would you suggest that the beliefs these common men have from what they have heard read from the Bible, who are apt to begin praying to you if you continue working miracles, should be considered just as close to the truth as those of these scholars who have dedicated their lives to trying to understand scripture?"

--M. J. Young

Mon Mar 1 2010 2:39 am #
Oak
Member

My response is still pending, but this is a thread bump for Ky to find it more easily... :)

Tue Jun 29 2010 3:38 pm #
Oak
Member

"Did the Bereans leave their searching of the Scriptures daily for others to do? Or did they do it themselves? And so should we not follow their Scriptural example?"

I consider thoughtfully as the full force of his latter words sink in, and frown in concern.

"Do you really think that these folk would fall into such error as to pray to me in response to these miracles, rather than giving glory to the LORD alone? And if so, how would you advise me to proceed, so that I may continue ministering where there is need while avoiding such a snare?"

Wed Jun 30 2010 7:13 am #
kyler
Member

Just a bit of an out of character aside... I really don't have as much knowledge of theological matters as MJ, or you, or even Friar Tuck, who I assume without actually checking to be a high level amateur or low level professional. However, I have looked over the conversation, and am hard pressed to determine your goal in the conversation, thus hard pressed to settle it with a roll. Are you attempting to persuade him more towards your way of thinking? With most things I would use a persuasion check, but in this case I feel a religion skill check for both parties involving relative success, success for both meaning that the target convert is not swayed, failure for the player meaning that the target convert is not swayed, and failure for the convert and success for the player meaning that the convert has been swayed to the character's line of thinking. Or are you attempting to further educate him in his religion, trying to help him raise his religion skill level as well as your own? Or is it idle banter?

Wed Jun 30 2010 3:14 pm #
Oak
Member

My goals are to persuade him more towards my way of thinking, and to help him raise his religion skill level as well as my own. :)

Wed Jun 30 2010 10:26 pm #
M. J. Young
Moderator

Let me inject something of my understanding of the situation.

We're a couple centuries before the Reformation. We're before Wycliff, who is before Hus, who is before Luther. By the time we get to Luther, the Roman Catholic Church will be a lot of the horrible things the Protestants protested. Oak is of a very anti-Catholic persuasion, who sees a lack of significant correction in the Roman church. He is trying to win Tuck over to an understanding of the Christian faith that shows the flaws in Reformation-era and post-Reformation Catholicism. Those flaws are not yet fully formed, though--he's dealing with a pre-Reformation Medieval Catholicism in which those flaws are incipient but most have not yet crossed the line. The Pope is seen as being in charge, and indeed we're right in the middle of the decaying period in which politics becomes such a huge factor in the church; but there's still a reasonable basis for the notion that someone has to be trusted to have the last word in all theological debates. People do "pray" to "saints", but still in the way of asking a friend to pray on their behalves, not yet as perceiving the saints themselves as answering prayers. The concept of tradition is strong, but the Catholic church perceives it as explaining scripture and Oak sees it as replacing scripture.

So there is a degree to which Oak is trying to correct errors in Tuck's thinking that aren't quite what Oak thinks they are. What Tuck believes is still within the boundaries of Christian faith, but tinged with some of the thinking of the age (Divine Right of Kings, for example) and holding the potential for the kind of misunderstanding that will lead to the errors Oak rejects.

I've been rolling persuasion versus will power on these (Tuck's got a 2@6 Will Power, 2@5 religion, and a stack of holy magic skills in the upper amateur to mid professional level he would object to calling magic--highest is a 2@8 protection against magic (self)). My recollection is that Tuck usually holds his ground in close contests (higher successful roll wins, but a close loss is not a severe loss). He's shifted a bit in his thinking, because Oak has good arguments (and I've bonused his persuasion a couple times for good arguments).

I think over time what will happen is that Tuck's understanding of Catholicism will be supplemented by Oak's input. Depending on which way Oak handles things, though, he's likely to become Saint John of Nottinghamshire, and to have a significant impact on the theological development of the Roman Catholic Church in England and its participation in the Reformation in the years ahead. I don't expect he'll be around long enough to see that.

The real interesting question, though, is how he handles the potential adulation. He has been healing the sick more and more, and the church would probably have no trouble already connecting three miracles to him. Catholics in England (and there are some Jews, but no one else) are going to start perceiving him as a saint (some undoubtedly already do), and "praying him for his prayers on their behalf" pretty soon. It's going to give him a very different perspective on the matter--on the one hand, if someone asks him to pray that God would heal, he's not going to want to refuse; on the other hand, that puts him in the position of "saint", exactly as the Roman church presently (in 1195) treats it: asking someone who appears to have a closer connection to God than you do to pray for you.

I can probably lend you Paul Tillich's book on the development of Christian thought from the second through early twentieth centuries; it overlooks some important ones after Calvin because Tillich is a bit of a liberal himself and ignores conservative church threads in favor of those with a strong philosophical progressivist bent. But if you want it, add it to the list of things I should send with your brother, if you're going to connect. It does have summaries of those people Tuck named above--Abelard, Anselm--although you could probably track them down through Wikipedia if you want.

--M. J. Young

Wed Jun 30 2010 10:43 pm #
Oak
Member

Little did poor Ky suspect what he was getting himself into... :o

Wed Jun 30 2010 11:27 pm #

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