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Arcane versus Holy Magic

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Started 4 years ago by M. J. Young
Latest reply from M. J. Young

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M. J. Young
Moderator

In the Behind the Screens 2008 thread, Scott asked:

Is holy magic intended to be more effective than arcane magic? It is, in the main. The modifiers for affiliation are balanced - variable effectiveness of holy magic vs. unchanging effectiveness of arcane magic - but there's no arcane counterpart to the bonus for Religion SAL. In addition, there are explicit penalties on arcane magic built into the skill trees (-40 on new arcane curatives, -10 (I think) on all arcane creation ex nihlio), but no corresponding penalties on holy magic. All the penalties inherent in the skill descriptions specific to holy magic are also specific by affiliation and are balanced by bonuses for the opposite affiliation.

The only possible counterbalance to the Religion bonus that comes to mind is the possibility of deity-specific penalties for certain skill uses in certain circumstances - but isn't that already balanced by the potential for bonuses when the deity approves (either directly, as with the penalties, or through the questing bonuses)? I suppose I'm wondering why wizards bother if holy magic works better.
The immediate answer is yes, holy magic is supposed to be easier than arcane magic. More precisely, holy magic is supposed to be more reliable and less dangerous than arcane magic, and for exactly the reason that holy magic involves the petitioning of someone who knows what he's doing to do it for you.

At the same time, it is implicit (and mentioned, but not emphasized), that to perform holy magic you have to be on good terms with the deity you're petitioning. It is perfectly within the priorities of the referee to penalize a player who has acted in ways entirely at variance with his stated religion who then asks his deity for help. Pillage a city, burn it to the ground, steal the treasure, rape the women, and then petition Yahweh for a blessing? I think you'll find a very large penalty against any prayers you offer.

Consistent with this, deities are certainly permitted to call upon their supplicants for assistance. A player whose character who frequently uses holy magic cannot complain when the referee suddenly announces that a prophet or priest or angel or some other emmisary of his deity has come with a "request" that he accomplish something. This gives the referee some pretty solid hooks--since to refuse the mission is (potentially, at least) to refuse to do what the deity requests, and such a refusal is going to result in substantial penalties, and possibly against more than just holy magic skills.

Thus the wizard's magic is harder, less reliable, more dangerous--but it comes with no strings attached. He can do whatever he wants, and while deities can ask for his help, he can thumb his nose at them and say they can find someone else to do their dirty work. Sure, making enemies of a god is a bad idea; but then, if you don't owe the god anything, you're in a position to bargain or refuse, and he can't really say you're being unfair as long as you uphold your end of the bargain. If the deity has already given you something, you're in a much different position when he expects something from you.

Does that help?

We've avoided including bonuses for studies of magical schools for precisely this reason: so wizards can't get the edge over holy men.

Footnote: the referee is also quite free to detail what sorts of penalties (or bonuses) any particular god is likely to apply to particular skills. Some deities might automatically penalize any damaging spell against life forms, or particular life forms, or any skill that endangers particular beings. Some might penalize curatives. I can see Odin declining to grant a spell where single combat would be an adequate solution. Those sorts of specific variables are too considerable to fit in the main text (although if someone wanted to create/self-publish a compilation of deities, the tenets of their historic faiths, and the implications for modifications to holy magic, that would be a welcome addition to the Multiverser corpus which would be beyond anything I can envision doing myself at present).

So there are potential limitations to the holy magic side that shouldn't be overlooked. To date, most of my players have lived consistently with most of the tenets of their faith, so I've not penalized anyone too severely recently.

--M. J. Young

Mon Apr 21 2008 9:44 pm #
Tadeusz
Member

I'll include an article on this in Multiverse Magazine Vol. #2. It will not be extensive as the notion of writing up the personalities and styles of fifty deities for a deities specific book is enough to make me blanch, but five or so would be a good start.

A straightforward Alliance like my "Awe" who is rather distant, but has emmissaries, an Anarch death god like my "Entropy", a Neutral who is Fey like my "Bird of Paradise", a more personal alliance like the "Eye of Truth" who is Lilandra's deity, and the "Elementarii" who are more angelic than deific, more elemental than angelic, but Alliance, and in my Lovecraftian world.

This little exercise highlights several things. 1)I'd really like to write up the deities I've made up. 2) Five is not nearly enough, even if its barely a start. 3)There is lots and lots of room for other creators. I'm not sure what Multiverser's chief problem is, but lack of material surely rates up there near the top.

If anyone cares to, I'd be glad to include their article on deities as well, or even just a short write up of one or two.

I may still go with more famous deities than the ones I've created. We'll see.

Eric

Mon Apr 21 2008 10:49 pm #
johnosevens
Member

I would love to be able to undertake such a thing, as I have a great love for and interest in the gods and goddesses, but I don't know Multiverser mechanics that well. I could say "Odin grants bonuses to spells that involve prophecy, and doubles the bonus given from acts of self-sacrifice, but penalizes those that involve mind control and will not grant a spell cast as an act of cowardice" but I couldn't say what percentage chance those bonuses or penalties consisted of.

Tue Apr 22 2008 1:33 am #
Tadeusz
Member

John, that would be just fine.

Eric

Tue Apr 22 2008 3:00 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

Tad, actually, his name is Harry.

Tue Apr 22 2008 3:16 am #
johnosevens
Member

I go by John online, A1Nut. I hate my real name.

Tue Apr 22 2008 3:21 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

Yeah, I'm not too fond of John myself. I cannot count the number of times I've been walking around a mall or someplace, and heard someone yell "Hey John" and I turn around and they are talking to someone else. I hate having one of the most common names in the world. That's why I kind of envy some of MJ's sons. One is Kyler and one is Tristan. I bet they don't have that problem like I do.

Tue Apr 22 2008 3:28 am #
Oak
Member

Ironically, I usually go by "John" in RL. The "Oak" gets emphasized online because there were already other "John"s around , regardless of how much they are keen on the name... :p

And, in an amazing bid to steer things back on topic, I'll give my thumbs-up to the current preference for holy verses arcane, and for the reasoning behind it... :)

Tue Apr 22 2008 4:41 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

I still say that praying isn't magic, but for the purpose of the game mechanic, I can live with it being called that. Osevens, you're pretty familiar with the religions of the world, why don't you write something up about it? I bet Scott, Tad, and MJ could figure out how to apply what you write to the game. It's a group effort. Let's all put in our two cents, and see if we can make a dollar out of it.

Tue Apr 22 2008 4:45 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/310592/

This video has a rather unique view of world religions, for anyone who is interested.

Tue Apr 22 2008 4:51 am #
Oak
Member

I still say that praying isn't magic, but for the purpose of the game mechanic, I can live with it being called that.

Amen, brother! :)

MV is one of my favorite roleplaying games overall, but the use of the term "magic" for the results of prayer is one of my least favorite things about MV. :(

Tue Apr 22 2008 4:57 am #
johnosevens
Member

I actually want to talk to MJ about this in a serious way over the weekend, if I have the honor of meeting him again.

If new Multiverser books are still being written and published, I might like to try my hand at actually writing one. A whole book on this, covering all the major gods of a bunch of religions, including some modern ones. Doubly so if someone is willing to take a co-author credit with me and put crunch (game mechanics) to my fluff (backstory and qualitative bonus ideas).

Out of respect for the believes of those here, I will NOT be including anything on the God of Abraham, simply because my opinions of Him would probably run contrary to the philosophies of others. (Mostly I think He would give an array of bonuses and penalties much wider than other gods, but in much smaller amounts each.)

Wed Apr 23 2008 4:00 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

If new Multiverser books are still being written and published, I might like to try my hand at actually writing one....... (Mostly I think He would give an array of bonuses and penalties much wider than other gods, but in much smaller amounts each.)

Osevens, I just got a copy of the rulebook. I would love to work with you on something like this. It would give me incentive to read the rulebook. The thing is, that if we do work together, we will include the God of Abraham. We can discuss how to go about it but He will be included, if I work with you on it. What do you think?

Wed Apr 23 2008 4:26 am #
johnosevens
Member

If you're willing to accept my different perspective and not be offended by it, then yes I would be glad to have you work on the mechanics to go with my fluff, and we can absolutely include your God, provided we can work out a version of Him that seems universally acceptible and fair in terms of game rules (even though, be definition, He oughtn't necessarily have to be - it's just fair that way).

Wed Apr 23 2008 6:48 am #
WilliamTWodium
Member

There are bound to be dozens of Gods of (dozens of) Abraham, so there's no need to be shy about detailing just one or two of Them.

Wed Apr 23 2008 8:23 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

A1nut@insight.rr.com Osevens, email me, and let's get started.

Wed Apr 23 2008 9:04 am #
Tadeusz
Member

Some mathematicians who see the elegance and style of the Universe call Him the Great Mathematician; a doctor might call Jesus the Great Physician, and C.S. Lewis, professor of myth, said that God was a Mythopoeic God. In truth, they are all right. Anything that is good, is a reflection of God's nature. Truth, Justice, and Coooooool exist because they are part of God's nature.

And God uses those tools He has constrained by the asking of the petitioner, in His own will. Thus, nowadays, O7, is probably right about 'lots of small blessings' because thats mostly what Christians pray for. MJ's novel has a different take on things with quoting Bible verses and acting on faith. I just read Katherine Kurtz's and Deborah Harris's 'The Temple and the Stone', and as might be expected by those who had read the Deryni series, it has a different take on Christian 'magic' than MJ's (much more symbolic and ritualistic with, in addition, a 'well of grace' which is the Stone of Scone). And one might argue that Elijah has a different take on it than MJ's conception because I don't remember Elijah quoting Bible verses very often...Of course, Brother Andrew, who smuggled Bibles into the Soviet Union, did tend to act on the basis of Bible verses, and he had some fairly large effects (one common one was what MJ would call 'pseudoinvisibility' where the guards ignored the in plain sight material that could get you sent to Siberia.)

One of the weirder tales from that book was of a storefront preacher who felt assured of God that his store would be full for the service. No one came. He preached anyways. Then he went walking on the streets, and occasionally stopped someone, witnessed to them, won them to God...it was as if they had heard the sermon.

Another tale. A pastor was having a very hard time with his church. They were being a bad congregation. He drove up to the church to have a meeting, and in the car, he wished for them all to be dead. He felt a clear message from God to the meaning of ...is that what you want? He changed his mind at that point.

Pastor Roloff was fairly famous in his circle (and wonderfully funny and dedicated). He was having difficulty due to some judges not liking how he ran his orphanage in Texas. Well, the ruling was bad enough that it looked like it would be overturned, but they hated to do that. So they were stuck. Either admit Roloff was right, or have a higher court do it for them. Humiliation either way. They all died relatively quickly at that point. I think that was six judges, btw.

I listened to one young man tell a small group of us how he healed a janitor's knee. He prayed over it with his hands on the knee, and was not sure anything happened. Next day, the janitor is quite happy as his knee doesn't hurt.

And there is the whole issue of Sign Gifts, special abilities granted by God as proof of His Word. Some, my brother of the almost three doctorates, would tell you this is only for the Early Church. I'm pretty sure MJ disagrees. I'm not learned enough to get into this arguement although I lean MJ's way.

Now myself, I have listed on my character sheet, something to the meaning of 'help me find things'. Its a thing with my parents and me. A number of times, we've prayed, turned around and found the lost item.

To sum up: God deals with you where you are at, and gives you what He thinks will help you (that last point is crucial. You might want to see a burning bush, but maybe a still, small voice is what you need. And you might want a still, small voice, but a burning bush is what you need.)

OK. I've rambled on enough.

Wed Apr 23 2008 4:32 pm #
JohnA1nut
Member

Can God work through someone that doesn't believe He exists? I have personally had 2 experiences with this. God worked through a 15 year old Atheist girl to save an 11 year old boy who was dying of cancer. Another time, an Atheist friend showed me the error of my thinking. I was lying about something that had happened to me, and I didn't realize it until my Atheist friend pointed it out to me. God can work even through people that don't believe He exists.

Wed Apr 23 2008 5:14 pm #
Tadeusz
Member

Certainly, He can. The Bible says that He can use evil nations. If it helps, think of it like Aikido. If I go up, and smack an Aikido master in the face, he's going to use my own muscle power of the strike to 'assist' me to a face-down position on the floor. And God's way more clever than an Aikido master.

Eric

Wed Apr 23 2008 5:21 pm #
Jhiaxus
Member

God does exist, he kept me from posting in this quagmire......DOH! I take it back there is no God, only Skittles.

Wed Apr 23 2008 7:11 pm #
JohnA1nut
Member

Adam, if you don't believe in God, that's OK. God still believes in you.

Wed Apr 23 2008 7:43 pm #
M. J. Young
Moderator

Thanks for the excellent posts, and particularly Eric's.

Harry, if you're wanting to publish such a book for profit, you need to talk to John Walker about a fair license to do so. Valdron is not publishing books that are not created in-house, for a host of difficult to explain reasons, but the current license gives the company president authority to license publication of outside materials.

I can help you figure out how/where to publish it.

Eric wrote:

Elijah has a different take on it than MJ's conception because I don't remember Elijah quoting Bible verses very often.
Actually, Elijah is one of my key examples in developing a lot of my thinking about Christian "magic". Also, it would be unfair to say that I have one particular take on Christian magic. Lauren Hastings has one particular take on it, because of when, where, and how she first learned her holy magic. It happens that that's the same place the Architect started his holy magic, and so there are close similarities there (except that he draws all his from the New Testament, and recites them in Koine Greek). His thinking has developed since then, but is not the same as mine.

In evidence, "my" view, in terms of my character here on the board, tends to use music for magic, because of having learned it originally in Haston, where music is magic. Very few of his magic skills are not musical, and even fewer of the songs he uses are scripture-based in a direct sense. I, as game designer, think "how" someone does holy magic depends very much on when, where, and how they first learn it, and what influences impact their choices thereafter. Adam's holy magic is mostly based on a confluence of Hackmaster/D&D and a respect for Norse religion.

As far as handling Christian magic in a book, I don't think that it would be much different from handling any other magic. One begins by disclaiming that this is the only way to handle magic in this religion but only an example of what the author thinks makes sense, and then one works from the beliefs of that religion to the implications mechanically that ought to flow from it assuming it is true.

If we start with the assumption (as Harry suggests) that the Christian God gives smaller bonuses over a much broader range of abilities, that in turn suggests that other deities give significantly larger bonuses in very focused areas. I might then suggest that part of the Christian beliefs, that God is greater than the gods, would mean that there would be some protection inherent in Christian faith that expresses itself as a sit-mod against non-Christian holy magic used against Christians. I would probably tie this to the religion score of the defender, but not as strongly as either the protection atheists get against all magic or the bonus that holy magic gets from the religion SAL. But that's just my initial thought here.

--M. J. Young

Wed Apr 23 2008 9:05 pm #
johnosevens
Member

MJ - The only reason I would disagree with you on this:

I might then suggest that part of the Christian beliefs, that God is greater than the gods, would mean that there would be some protection inherent in Christian faith that expresses itself as a sit-mod against non-Christian holy magic used against Christians.

is that it implies one Christian can call upon God to smite another (whether he realizes his victim is of similar faith or not) and NOT suffer that penalty.

As for talking to Valderon, I think I will but I want to talk to you first.

Thu Apr 24 2008 7:14 am #
M. J. Young
Moderator

Harry, there's a problem with this that you would not have recognized because you don't have the rules, but I think it resolves your issues significantly. You wrote,

...it implies one Christian can call upon God to smite another (whether he realizes his victim is of similar faith or not) and NOT suffer that penalty.
There is a penalty in such situations already. In fact, it's a broader penalty than that.

You've probably brushed up against the word "affiliation" in our discussions; it's something like alignment, but has slightly less to do with moral and ethical positions generally and more to do with which side you're on. Alliance means those supernatural beings that would ally themselves with The Creator and with His intentions for the world; Anarch means those which oppose the Creator and seek something other than His intentions; Neutral means those not committed to either side.

I should specify that "The Creator" is not specifically the Christian God, but generally the One God of any ethical monotheistic faith.

The thing is, deities are reluctant to work their power against other deities of the same affiliation. If two alliance priests go against each other, their deities (whether the same God or separate gods) are not as likely to provide the power for this; similarly if two anarch priests get into a feud their deities do not want this to escalate into a war between them, and so will be less apt to provide the answers to their prayers.

Thus in the scenario you portray, where one Christian is calling on God for power against another Christian (or even when the sides are Christian/Jew or Mormon/Muslim) there is already a penalty, because God is really unlikely to work against Himself.

Now, that doesn't mean such prayers never work. God can use one group of His people to discipline another. He can give power to someone knowing it will be misused. It's a fine line God walks in such situations--whether to allow His people to attack each other until they knock some sense into each other or whether to withhold power to force them to try something else. Thus it comes to a penalty in such situations, and the dice decide what God does.

--M. J. Young

Thu Apr 24 2008 7:23 pm #
KellyKeck
Member

The book on different gods and goddesses and the game mechanics related to each sounds fascinating. http://www.godchecker.com is a good reference on various cultures' mythologies. It would be neat to include both the major deities of the commonly known pantheons (Norse, Egyptian, Greek/Roman--maybe Aztec and a few others) as well as a few strange or lesser known ones. It would also be useful to toss in the deities that have already been mentioned in the Multiverser books of worlds (Tiaknojee is the only one who comes immediately to mind).

If you guys *do* get that project off the ground, let me know if you want a hand with it. This stuff fascinates me, and I could certainly do a write-up for a deity or six.

Tue Apr 29 2008 6:57 pm #
johnosevens
Member

I am undertaking this project personally, with the intention of publishing through CafePress as I discussed with MJ and Pharoah over the weekend.

Kelly, thanks for that site! I'm sure it will come in great handy. If you do personally know of any multiverser-specific deities, I'll be more than happy to have them (and give credit appropriately).

I'm also planning to include a chapter on Patron Saints, for our Catholic versers (inspired by my Catholic cousin), as well as some of the lesser-known deities from each pantheon I cover.

Tue Apr 29 2008 8:21 pm #
M. J. Young
Moderator

Although there are hints of religions in various worlds, Tiaknojee is the only named deity I remember at the moment from the worlds--oh, and Wahstee, of course, from that same world, to whom the sacrifices are made of all that cannot be used. They would be particularly tricky to detail, but I'm sure Harry's up to the task. I think he'd get a kick out of them.

Otherwise I think most of the religions are either familiar (the Roman Catholicism of Sherwood Forest and Prisoner of Zenda) or sketchy (the country churches of The Farmland).

Of course, I might be forgetting one somewhere.

--M. J. Young

Tue Apr 29 2008 10:09 pm #
johnosevens
Member

As I don't have the Book of Worlds, I'd greatly appreciate anything anyone could email me regarding either or both of those.
The more I can get on gods and religions farther off the mainstream, the better.
Anybody can tell you how to follow Odin or Zeus, but if I can tell you what sorts of bonuses you get by praying to Sigyn (Wife of Loki and Norse goddess of orphans and loyalty), that's something unique.

Tue Apr 29 2008 11:28 pm #
Tadeusz
Member

There is another angle or two on this.

In my games, and my worlds I've used 'alien created electrofield archetypes such as the Shepherd' in Doom of the Mech Empire. He would be regarded as a protective spirit, but he's more of an AI based on an archetype of an alien race, created by another alien race.

Then, in a World A Week, there is 'Rodina' which is the national spirit of Russia in a magical universe. She is 'Mother Russia', and is a timebound spirit created by the belief of the Russian people. But, at least in this case, it was not a spirit from outside that took up the job, but more like a 15@10 Create Spirit Entity spell cast by the belief of the Russian people.

Plantations, Past, Present, Perilous had Entropy, possibly.

MJ faced off against a Snake God, and something named Mr. Shadow, I'm guessing. The Snake God was actually fairly weak which highlights one aspect of this--you can have deities which a powerful verser might have a chance of taking on himself.

Mr. Red Drake, web site designer, and red dragon, used to worship the Six Beasts Who Sit in Shadow and Gnaw at the Roots of Heaven.

Lilandra, chosen paladin of the Eye of Truth, who slew Mr. Drake the first time, and made him a verser in the process....

One infrequently done idea is to have a deity of a local place. It could be a city, or even just a spring.

MJ is perhaps forgetting the deities of "Orc Rising". There is Gaia for the Elves, Dwarves, and Humans, and about ten tribal deities for the Orcs with one of them explicitly evil.

Jhiaxus has had dealings with Odin run by MJ, and with another character with Odin run by moi. He considered MJ's Odin to be Alliance, and mine to be Neutral (mine sent a raven to 'make a deal'...in exchange for your life here, help unspecified in the future. Jhiaxus ended up nuking Sydney at the behest of Odin. And Sydney was the world capital of the Games Board. Imagine the movie 'The Running Man' with the Board of Directors running things being demon possessed infernal sorcerers...which leads to the suggestion of 'Brotherhood of the Abyss' which is a group of demons.

You can make up a variety of demons, and demon sub-groups. And you can have different varieties of Odin ranging from a rather kindly and noble sort of awesome power to the Odin in a book I read who was defeated by an American Special Forces soldier who had a grudge against him.

Enough rambling, I need to write up a few deities for you to look at...

Wed Apr 30 2008 2:48 am #
johnosevens
Member

I think this also raises the question of Avatars versus actual Deities. Odin himself is of course an enduring ideal, not necessarily an anthropomorphic person. You might find it within your capacity to defeat a physical incarnation of Odin, but to fully destroy an actual god completely would require snuffing out the ideal he embodies, which is significantly harder.

There's also the issue of false gods. Powerful spirits, strong adventurers, or warped Versers pretending to be gods when they're not. It's perfectly possible to pose as Odin or Set or the Squid King of Nightmares, but it doesn't mean you are.

Wed Apr 30 2008 4:29 am #
johnosevens
Member

What I wonder now is, what qualifies one as a god?

I know this is a weird thing to have to ask, but one time I was talking with MJ about the concept of 3@10, and he said something to the effect of Thor would have a 3@10 Strength along with a speciality in lifting and breaking things, and so on. So, if it's possible to put stats to the gods - even if those stats are just pages of 3@10's - that means that, given time, a Verser could conceivably go to to toe with Thor with a reasonable chance of winning, at least in terms of the dice.

So, if stats alone are not enough, what qualifies someone to be an actual deity, as opposed to just a poser who happens to have power?
Can the gods defy the bias curve of their world?
Is there a level of true immortality that is the qualification?
At what point can an indig cleric call upon someone to power his spells? Is that cleric's own faith enough to make it work, or is there some quality of the would-be god that enables it?
At what point can a Verser call on you to empower their spells between worlds? Thor answers my prayers as solidly in one world as another. How?

Or is it, as I said in my previous post, that Thor's avatar has 3@10 strength, while the strength of the actual immutable god of strength cannot actually be expressed, or is truly infinite? Is that the hallmark of a true god? To have completely transcended even the notation that immortal Versers use? Is this something that really and truly cannot be achieved?

Wed Apr 30 2008 6:54 am #
M. J. Young
Moderator

I seem to have a lot to answer here.

Eric is right--I forgot the gods in Orc Rising. Shame on me, as I've probably done more with them than with any other game world I've written. Gaia is a bit too big to define easily; the orc gods are simpler, but some of them left vague intentionally.

What I wonder now is, what qualifies one as a god?

I think the first and foremost qualification is this: gods exist in the deep supernatural realm as their homes. Their appearances in universes, and even in the border supernatural, are limited by the rules of those realms, but since no one understands the rules of the deep supernatural (you cannot enter and return, and no being from there can or will explain it) no one can say what the gods are truly like in their own realm. Thus if you visit Gladsheim, you have not actually entered the deep supernatural but a border supernatural designed as a place for mortals and immortals to interact; in such a place, the gods are limited to 3@10 scores, because that's as high as anything can be. (This is also because it must be possible for gods who are not The God to fail, because when they go against each other the conflict must be real.)

...a Verser could conceivably go to to toe with Thor with a reasonable chance of winning, at least in terms of the dice.
Sure. I know a verser who beat Cthulu and stole the Necronomicon from him. He used subterfuge and allowed getting himself killed to be an escape tactic, but that means he outsmarted a god.

Can the gods defy the bias curve of their world?Gods live outside "their world"; they establish the bias curves of those worlds in which they are given authority. They are bound by their own decisions in those matters, but they can change their minds. Doing so at whim makes for terribly chaotic and unpredictable worlds, and so doesn't usually happen--and besides, "at whim" for a god might be a millennium or two. They are also limited by the bias decisions of the ruling gods of other worlds when they interfere in those worlds. This is a decision of the Creator, and cannot be overridden even by the Creator: whatever gods are appointed to rule a universe, they get to decide the biases, and they must live with their decisions.

In a sense it would be foolish to ask whether the ruling gods of a world can violate the mag bias--they are the ones who most matter in terms of magic in a world. If Zeus says no one can heal in his world, but then Zeus is allowed to heal, everyone prays to Zeus, and healing is common. It is also unfair for Zeus to make such a rule, and so such an unfair rule is forbidden: either all gods can heal, or none can.

At what point can an indig cleric call upon someone to power his spells? Is that cleric's own faith enough to make it work, or is there some quality of the would-be god that enables it?
Anyone can call on the gods for power at any time.

You do have to believe that there are gods, and that they will hear you, and that means you have at least a 1@1 Religion score--and that means at least some faith (faith=knowing something is true that you do not know from your own experience or observation). The higher your religion score, the more likely you will get your request answered.

The gods hear because they are in the supernatural, and all border supernaturals border on all universes--that's just the way it is. Their ability to respond is controlled by bias, which means in this context the decision of the ruling deities of the world concerning what supernatural power will be made available to those in the world.

There is also the nuance of difference between the bias level and the bias curve.

If the bias level of a world is 7@5, the curve is 7+8=12. Between them they create two distinct limitations.

The limitation of the curve is the one most versers recognize; to them, the level is primarily a number that determines how big a bonus they get on their magic skills. What the curve means is that unless a skill is @1 or @0, it can only be performed in this world if the level+intensity is not greater than the curve. Thus in our hypothetical 7@5 world, curve of 12, you can perform skills up to 2@10, 3@9, 4@8, 5@7, and so on, up to 10@2, and above that you can only perform @1 or @0 skills. That rule applies to any being visiting this universe from elsewhere--versers, other dimensional travelers, angels, demons, gods, whatever.

However, the level is the absolute ceiling for indigs. If the bias is 7@5, the indig cannot perform a level eight skill--it is biased out, above the bias level of the world. Thus you can perform an 8@4 illusion in that world, but the indig cannot. The god can perform it if he can appear in person, and his angel or djinni or other spirit minion can perform it, or he can recruit a verser to do it for him, but he cannot allow his cleric to do so directly. This is what makes low-level high-intensity worlds interesting: skills are difficult, but the verser can do things the indigs simply cannot. Thus if the bias is 0@, the indigs cannot do anything. If it is flatlined 0@1, the verser is limited to @1 and @0 skills with no bonus; if it is 0@25, the verser can do anything, with difficulty, but the indigs can do nothing.

At what point can a Verser call on you to empower their spells between worlds? Thor answers my prayers as solidly in one world as another. How?
As mentioned, this is because the border supernatural realms all border on all universes, and the gods are limited only by the bias decisions made by the ruling gods of that universe. Gods must respect each others' rights to deal with their own followers, no matter where they are. If Zeus doesn't want Odin talking to Odin's worshipper's in Zeus' world, then the only way Zeus can prevent it is by taking the same restriction on himself.

This is in part a "fairness to the players" rule: we can't take your holy magic away from you by changing which gods rule this world. We can make it so that this world is ruled by an opposing camp, and so penalize you--alliance, neutral, and anarch holy magic all works better in worlds in which the rulers are of the same affiliation and worse in worlds where they are opposed--but we cannot prevent you from reaching your god entirely. It is even allowed that all arcane magic can be power blocked (the gods can decide that no one uses magic that is not from a god), but holy magic cannot be powerblocked en masse, but only in targeted specifics (all healings, or all material creations, or some similar definable category) which apply equally to arcane skills.

Hope this helps. Let me dig up what I have on the gods in the books.

--M. J. Young

Wed Apr 30 2008 10:54 pm #
M. J. Young
Moderator

I also forgot Bah Tor, ruling deity of Bah Ke'gehn. There's a lot on him.

Bah Tor

The Religion of Bah Ke’gehn

It should be apparent to the referee that the world is overwhelmingly in the control of the alliance.

Only a few Bah are opposed to the alliance, and they are therefore all anarch. (Note that in any world inwhich the alliance has such a high level of control, neutrality is difficult for the indigs, as not to be alliancerequires a specific rejection definitive of the anarchs.) It is a nearly unspoiled world, with so little evil atlarge as to be nearly negligible.

The ruling power of this world is a single alliance power known to the indigs as Bah Tor, the LifeGiver. Although he is not the Creator God, he is the creator of this world and all that is in it. His is anorderly world in which several principles are maintained. Chief of these is that life is sacred. All adherentsdo all that they can to protect life, and will only take life by the gentlest of means when it has becomenecessary to defend other life. There is a written language, but the books and scrolls on which it is writtenare produced and inscribed by magic; their value lies in the information contained within them, and not inthe books themselves. Otherwise, there is no real property, as all things are shared, and nothing is produced(there are no real “things”) except for the various shared foods, unless it is by magic. Thus there is noconcept of ownership, and there is a respect for the space and place of each other.The strong must protect the weak, and the wise must teach the unlearned. All must do their partwithin society to make society work.Technology is shunned by Bah Tor, because he perceives that those who find technologicalexplanations for the world will eventually decide that there is no supernatural. Even though within hisworld the most powerful are in direct communion with him, he would not risk having them forget him, andso be trapped by evil.In the modern world, there are several theological debates. One or more of these form the basis forthose Dol Mu-tahk and Dol Nor who reject Bah Tor. A character who becomes immersed in the world ofthe Mu-tahk will certainly be exposed to these, and it is possible for a character connected to a lower stageindig to encounter the arguments or the explanations.The problem of evil is greatly debated among the scholars. Although botches take a very smallpercentage of the population, the fact remains that some Toromak become Kek-toromak, and some BahDzen become Dak Sin, and some Tolo Sin become Kwak Bran. Although to the verser, this may seem asmall evil, it is important that the referee grasp that to the indigs, these are the worst evils they haveencountered, and therefore the worst evils many of them can imagine. That there is such evil in their worldcauses some to question whether Bah Tor is truly good, or truly powerful, or truly existent. The standardanswer (and in this world the correct one) is that it is not possible to make a creature which has the truepower of moral self-determination which is also perfect, that is, it is intrinsic in the power of moral choicethat the chooser may be able to turn to evil, and is therefore not perfect. Since the Bah are thus not perfect,it is not surprising that some of them do not grow correctly and take aberrant forms, even where there is noindication of any moral error. Since such moral self-determination is necessary for the expression of love(how is it love if it cannot be otherwise?), it was necessary for Bah Tor to create imperfect creatures, and tosuffer the failure of some due to those imperfections.

A lesser and more recent debate regards technology. Although there are legends of technologyhaving existed in the past, it does not exist in the present (and any devices which may have been createdhave been consumed by the grass over time). Such technology may have been carried into Bah Ke’gehn byhumanoid versers, used for good and evil, and then carried away; some of the ancients are said to havelearned the secrets of technology from these visitors. But technology did them great harm, and little good.Bah Tor dropped the tech bias thereafter to block such use in the present. The legends, even those reliablywritten, are thought by many to have been misunderstandings of the situation. The humanoid “demons”themselves have been doubted, and the idea of technology frequently ridiculed. However, the more recentpresence of new versers has rekindled old ideas, and the debate again rages. Some say these creatures arean unrecorded mutation of the Bah, and that their alleged technology is merely magic performed a differentway, while others claim that these are the genuine demons from the legends come back in the present totaunt and cause trouble with their evil technology. Debunkers such as the Dol Mu-tahk Randy “theScientific” Jamis repeatedly demonstrate that they can perform by magic and psionics all of the tricks whichare reportedly done by the demons with their technology.The idea of alternate realities and parallel worlds has never occurred to them, and would not becredible if suggested. Bah Tor prefers that they not consider the possibility that what is truth to them is nottruth everywhere, so there is a strong tendency for indigs to view alternate views as more than false,heretical and therefore dangerous. However, it is the nature of the Mu-tahk to be open minded, viewing allthings as possible and worthy of consideration, and the Dol Mu-tahk and Dol Nor will eagerly embrace anyidea which will free them of responsibility to their creator.Of course, the Dol Mu-tahk maintain that the existence of Bah Tor and any other personality in thesupernatural realm is illusory, at best the projected best hopes of the worshippers, and at worst the deceitfulcontrolling mythology of the priests and rulers. In contradiction to this, the Dol Nor by and large maintainthat Bah Tor is not the greatest power in the supernatural, nor the creator of all things. Both of these thingsare true, but the Dol Nor are yet deceived by other powers of anarch association into believing that theseanarch powers are the ultimate power in the supernatural. Bah Tor is, of course, the controlling power inhis own world and the creator of all things not brought from across the scriff or delivered by othersupernatural powers. The Tau Mu-tahk have this clear and correct (except that they do not understand thatthere might be greater powers in the supernatural related to other worlds), and the Lanatak accept theirconclusions in the matter. The Bah Tau have a more personal and direct relationship with Bah Tor, and soknow many truths in a more direct and less intellectual way (as one knows a friend, not in definedintellectualized descriptions but in a relational understanding of the person he is), but they are notquestioned, revealing only what they are given to reveal, and only in ways which the others mightunderstand.The existence and nature of the Tolo Dzen, the non-corporeal beings, is also debated to somedegree. The correct answer is that life on Bah Ke’gehn begins as a non-corporeal life form (the grass)rising up from the realm of light and life below, and in its highest state becomes another non-corporeal lifeform which is in ultimate and permanent communion with Bah Tor in the realm of light and life below.
Sorry for the formatting--it's copied from a PDF, and portable document format is not really user friendly when it comes to copying text to other formats.

Tiaknojee and Wastee

The humans, so totally isolated from their own world (they are physically cut off from the surfaceand intellectually cut off from their technology) raised generations of descendants who at first did notunderstand the stories of their world, then embellished these and changed them, with their childrenbelieving the stories. No one alive today has any notion of the truth of the matter. However, the storiesgenerally reflect some aspect of the history of the world. There are tales of the great light, long gone fromthe world, whom the ancients captured and placed in glass tubes to light the world; in fact, the sun is stillthere, and its power is used to illuminate the complexes. Other stories tell how the ancients, guided by thegreat god Tiaknojee, gave life and form to the gods and to the Pair Robah (the repair robots) who are theministers of Tiaknojee to the gods (the factories).In this view, the factory machines themselves are the gods of the pantheon headed by Tiaknojee. Itshould not surprise the referee that the ruling power of this universe has always been a neutral technophile,a god of technology, who wished for his creatures to have technology and the things it can provide.Tiaknojee is the name which has become attached to him in this universe (by linguistic deterioration), and itis he who hears the prayers of worshippers, regardless of to which machine they are directed. The robots,actually dispatched by the computer monitoring systems, are seen as Tiaknojee's healing ministers to thesick gods. In all, Tiaknojee need do little to get credit for his work; the machines do it all.As society deteriorated, social order was to some degree maintained. Individuals with higherleadership qualities emerged as leaders of small groups which became formalized into tribes. Men withsome understanding of the systems became tribal priests (shamans). In most tribes, these offices becamelargely hereditary, with sons learning from their fathers less about the old ways and more about the newview of the world. The shaman today knows nothing of the operation of machines, but he knows thelegends, a few @0 button-pushing skills, and a small amount of tribal magic reluctantly provided byTiaknojee to keep humanity alive until he can restore technological knowledge.Note that Tiaknojee, as a god of technology, disdains magic, and so will not rebuild thetechnological and scientific knowledge base by direct revelation. Such a rebuild would be essentiallymagical in nature, and would not foster the kind of detached naturalistic attitude so important in advancedscientific inquiry. Tiaknojee wishes to restore that attitude, and therefore attempts to maintain a low profile.He would prefer to intervene by acting to bring the petitioner in contact with the technology which willmeet his needs than to provide directly. Holy neutral curative magic, for example, should be penalized -15throughout this world, but on any failed cure attempt which is not a botch, the character should within ashort time come upon curative technology within his own ability to operate. For indigs, this would includecoming to automated clinics or encountering displaced medical robots; a verser could find operable medicalequipment for which he must make a skill check to use, but which is within his ability to use or to learn touse under the current bias and conditions. Indigs will rightly see these events as the intervention of the godin response to their prayers, although they are easily explained away as coincidence and good luck.

The mag bias remains. 7@9 gives the indigs full access to informations not related to the future,and everything below them. However, the referee should expect the use of magic to be extremely limited.Tiaknojee disdains magic, and would not have it overly used by his people. All magic which is not to savea life directly or meet the immediate needs of people takes a -15 penalty (for both learning and doing); thisis in addition to any penalties for affiliation (-5 for all alliance and anarch mages) or mag type (such as thepenalties particular sources face for curatives). These penalties apply to indigs and versers alike.

There are many words which have lost their meaning and become names of gods in the commonparlance. These words tend to have lost some linguistic form. Chief of these are the name of thetechnology god himself, Tiaknojee (tyak-NO-jee), and his most visible servants, Valkyries of the pantheon,the repair robots called Pair Robah (PAIR RO-bah). There are similar deteriorations giving us Fadreez(factories), and the Troll Pan (control panel) where the shaman performs his magic. These words have incommon that they are often repeated by the common people, have no meaning to them outside of theirreligious significance, and are never seen in print.In the same way, the shaman is called a “Ner”. Their ancestors were computer “nerds” who coulddo much with the systems, and the name stuck. The chieftain, once given the military title Commander, iscalled the “Manner”. In tribes with a warrior class, he may also have a “Tennen”, from “lieutenant”,possibly two.Print gives us a different problem. The people of this world speak English, but they don’t read it.The Ners have kept reading alive, but dissociated it from common speech. They can decipher the meaningsof words written on control panels and appearing on some screens; but in doing so they give each letter itsown unique sound. “G” is always hard, as in “go”; “C” as in “cat”. There are no diphthongs; each vowel ispronounced, and always as a long vowel—thus “cat” sounds to us like “Kate”, but “Kate” like “Katie”.There are no consonantal blends, the “h” following c, g, p, s, t, and w having a breath sound as if it were thebeginning of a word, “that” most nearly sounding like “t’hate”. Doubled vowels such as in “look” are splitby a glottal stop (cutting the sound off in the throat), so as to sound like “low oak”. Doubled consonants arepronounced twice, so that “kitten” would sound like “kite, teen”. Any similarity between the words the nersread from the holy writings and English is regarded as coincidence.The most significant of these deteriorations is the name of the god Waste, WAY-stee, to whom alluseless materials are sacrificed. It is through these “sacrifices” in the myriad of small altars scatteredthroughout the complex that near total recycling is achieved.

The player may early on become aware that there are certain areas of the underground complexwhich are marked off by red floors (some kind of polyurethane or plastic coating). If he is with indigs, theywill insist that he not enter these areas, which they regard as sacred to the gods. If the character ignoresthese warnings or for other reasons enters the red zones, the hazards will increase. This is the machine areaof the factory, the area in which machines do not watch out for people.

I note that Orc Rising is actually not yet published; I'm going to forestall posting that information for the moment, more because I've much to do than for some other reason. Nag me again later.

--M. J. Young

Wed Apr 30 2008 11:14 pm #

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