I have 2@2 proficiency with my 9mm. It is a Ruger P89 9mm. The thing though is that it is one of a line of at least 14 different handguns. To my knowledge, the pistols are all exactly the same, to the extent that they can be. All of the 9mm pistols in that group take the same magazine, all the 45 pistols do, etc. Also, they are all built more or less the same. Some have shorter barrels, some have smaller grips, but they are all mechanically exactly the same in how they operate. They also field strip in exactly the same fashion. (I know the P89 and the P90 did) I know that having 2@2 with one pistol gives you 1@10 with all pistols, but what if the pistol was a Ruger P series? Maybe the 45 caliber P 90 (one of which I owned) which is exactly the same, except for the larger caliber? Would there be any kind of bonuses for that?
Bonuses and such
(6 posts) (5 voices)-
It's a judgment call for the referee. I would be inclined to say that you have the 2@2 SAL with all substantially identical 9mm pistols.
To use the comparison of long swords, the amateur ability is such that a long sword, short sword, rapier, claymore, scimitar, katana, or pretty much any other sort of sword is going to be about the same in the hands of the user, because the differences that make one sword better for specific uses and another better for different applications are nuances that the amateur is not going to be able to use adequately. The professional specializes in a particular kind of sword, that is, long sword. It doesn't matter whether it is a French longsword or an English longsword or a Melnibonean longsword, it is a description of the design that involves a three to four foot straight length with a double edged and pointed blade and a solid hilt with a guard protecting the grip. It is the nuances of that kind of weapon that matter. It is not until expert level that it matters more significantly than that, at which point the fact that you are familiar with this sword, the nuances of its balance, the exact length from hilt to tip, the breadth and thickness of the blade, all become part of your ability to use it. It is that intimate familiarity with his own weapon that makes Etienne de Navarre so formiddable--even when it is in the hands of his opponent, he is able to know exactly where he has to be to avoid the tip and then roll over the blade, grab the handle, and pierce the enemy with it.
Applying this to guns is much more difficult. It is clear that the amateur level, what we formally call "small hand-carried explosive-driven slug throwers" or informally "pistols", covers everything from a matchlock to a fully automatic pistol, as long as the caliber does not make it "heavy" (Desert Eagle?) and the size does not make it "large" (AK-7?). It is equally clear that the expert level is your personal pistol, the weapon you carry. The professional level, though, must be something narrower than all pistols and broader than this exact gun, and where that falls is more a judgment call than anything else.
I've not had it arise in play, but I think that if, for example, someone skilled with a Ruger P-89 took a 9mm Beretta off an opponent, I would extend the professional level of ability to the similar weapon, possibly with a minor penalty on the first couple of rolls and maybe the first reload or jam repair.
--M. J. Young
Sun Aug 24 2008 10:00 pm # -
johnosevens
MemberMJ, you've mentioned an interesting thing in the above post, and it raises a question for me.
The professional specializes in a particular kind of sword, that is, long sword. It doesn't matter whether it is a French longsword or an English longsword or a Melnibonean longsword ... It is not until expert level that it matters more significantly than that, at which point the fact that you are familiar with this sword...
It seems like you go from "all longswords regardless of style or origin" to "this particular named unique weapon." Is there really no level of specialization wherein the difference between the English style (which arose primarily as a secondary side-arm) and the Melnibonean style (which was intended to be a footman's primary weapon) actually matters? Or is that the sort of thing that was glossed over in the interest of smooth mechanics?
Mon Aug 25 2008 10:23 pm # -
Harry, that professional level limitation is left to the referee's discretion for a couple of practical reasons.
One, there are thousands of skills in which a descending limitation is a necessary corrolary, from weapons to vehicles to artisan's tools, and it would not have been practical to provide specific detailed stepdowns for each one of these.
Two, no referee can be expert enough in every such area to know just how much different a Melnibonean longsword is from an English longsword, and a Formula One Racer from a Stock Car, and a 707 from a DC10, and an X-acto knife from a Swiss carving set--and then we complicate that by including all the innumerable imaginary versions of everything, for which no one really knows anything but what the referee decides about them.
In my games, "longsword" means "longsword", and if you have reached the professional level of ability with "longsword", that's what you need. If you want more definition than that, you can state that in your world the professional is limited to "Melnibonean Longsword"--or "Chevrolet Stock Cars" or "Smith and Wesson .45 Revolvers" or "Boeing Jumbo Jets".
We recommend that with reusable weapons, expert applies to one weapon. (Obviously with grenades and similar bombs, it can't, so you become expert in the very specific type.) This is because of the image of the fighter who really is best with his own sword, who in game terms must suffer some disadvantage if he is using some other sword.
With many other areas, such as vehicles, we recommend that the expert be so in a very narrow type, but not a specific instance--trucks, heavy equipment, race cars, stunt cars, motorcycles, tools, aircraft, time machines, whatever device is connected to the skill, the expertise goes to a very narrow application, but not necessarily a singular example, depending on how the use feels in play.
--M. J. Young
Tue Aug 26 2008 1:28 am # -
If you as the referee personally feel that there should be a level between all longswords and this longsword, I recommend that you look to this earlier suggestion by MJ:
I've not had it arise in play, but I think that if, for example, someone skilled with a Ruger P-89 took a 9mm Beretta off an opponent, I would extend the professional level of ability to the similar weapon, possibly with a minor penalty on the first couple of rolls and maybe the first reload or jam repair.
The penalty represents that the professional user is employing a weapon with significant differences from those to which he is accustomed, but it still allows him the benefit of his 2@ skill with longswords (as opposed to knocking him down to 1@10 as he would be for a rapier or a gladius). With time and use, this penalty would disappear, and the new type of longsword would be added to a familiarity list so he is never assessed the same penalty in the future.
All of the above is discretion, but it allows you to draw finer distinctions in those areas where you are knowledgeable (swords) without forcing you to make guesses in those areas where you are not (WWII fighter planes).
Tue Aug 26 2008 11:21 pm # -
Tadeusz
MemberI think one solution to the lack of referee specialized knowledge is Tables, Lists, and Articles detailing things. Add in specialized charts for Devices as well.
Its interesting that a fair number of gamers like this kind of stuff. I've seen Tech Manuals, and books that wholly deal with different types of Mechs, and so forth. In this field, there is room for literally dozens of books.
Forex, it'd be neat to see the stats on the Steampunk Cross-Atlantic steam train next to the stats on the Roanoke train from Mythica next to the stats on the nuclear-powered Siberian train with the shade tree mechanic add-ons of tank cannons next to....
And I'm not even a real stats junkie like a lot of gamers are. I'm actually on the left side of the bell curve on that issue, I'd say.
Wed Aug 27 2008 1:46 am #
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