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Dart World

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Started 2 years ago by M. J. Young
Latest reply from JohnA1nut

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M. J. Young
Moderator

This popped into my head last night, and I was going to put it forward today, but I got involved in trying to devise a good world for John 2 (and this is not that, I think) that I forgot it.

I was thinking originally in terms of rubber-tipped darts, but I decided these would need to be highly sophisticated, and it might be better to use paintballs instead.

The core of the idea is something like what Eric does in Starsong. In this conception, everyone is quite aware that real weapons kill, and so no one carries real guns and everyone accepts the convention that if the dart or paintball hits you, you're wounded, possibly incapacitated. The criminals all accept this, because they recognize that the police have the resources to use real weapons and real weapons kill; the police respect the rule, because it gives them a level playing field of sorts--the criminals won't use real guns if the police treat dart hits as incapacitating.

There are severe penalties for using real guns, but the most severe is that the police will respond with lethal force if the criminals use it first.

I'm trying to work out in my mind some of the details, particularly how to determine the severity of a wound when it's not a real wound. Can someone shot in the arm still run, someone shot in the leg return fire? Are head shots and center of mass shots automatically incapacitating?

Anyway, that's the start.

--M. J. Young

Wed Feb 3 2010 3:29 am #
johnosevens
Member

This strikes me as the kind of thing that would become silly very quickly, especially to Versers who are used to worlds that actually do try to kill you, seeing these people running around shooting each other with paintballs and treating it like Serious Business.

Wed Feb 3 2010 4:07 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

I'm trying to work out in my mind some of the details, particularly how to determine the severity of a wound when it's not a real wound. Can someone shot in the arm still run, someone shot in the leg return fire? Are head shots and center of mass shots automatically incapacitating?

What about a topical tranquilizing agent in the paint balls? Liquid Novocaine or something. You get shot in the arm, your arm goes numb for a couple of hours. Remember, "non-lethal" is in no way synonymous with "Painless". Getting shot in center mass or the head, you go unconscious for a little while. Or perhaps all of your limbs go numb? Effectively taking you out of the fight, even if you didn't believe in the honor system. Reminds me of that Star Trek episode where the computers were fighting the war between planets.

Wed Feb 3 2010 4:12 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

As I understand the rules to paintball gaming, a hit anywhere is an automatic kill. Doesn't matter if you got shot in the foot, you are dead. So no, the guy shot in the leg can't return fire, he's dead. The guy shot in the arm can't run, he's dead too. It would make the guns more effective than real ones, if everyone played by Da Rulez!!

The paint bullets themselves could be shot from a real gun. The police are engaging with paintballs, and the criminals start shooting bullets? Change the magazine and you are good to fire lethal rounds.

Wed Feb 3 2010 5:08 am #
Tadeusz
Member

I read in the Miles Vorkosigan stories about 'stunner tag', and about how stunners were the only weapon fairly safe to shoot first without being certain of your target.

I'll also point out the idea of 'counting coup' among Native American tribes. I've long felt this is a more civilized form of warfare than ours (at least in that regard...the whole 'give the prisoners to the women' thing is not remotely civilized.)

So, I can see 07's point, but...

One way to deal with things is to have an 'uber-civilized world' be threatened by some monster. In this case, perhaps another verser. Or perhaps as in the movie 'Surrogates' which I just watched today, somebody has figured out a way to turn 'stuns' into kills.

One way would be to shoot targets with a latent binary half of a drug which would be buried under John's Liquid Novocaine....(no make it some other ko, specialized for obvious soon to be apparent reasons) Later that week, they get shot again, and the latent binary combines with the Liquid Novocaine and turns it into a lethal cocktail that mimics an allergic reaction.

Someone has figured out how to turn police into unwilling executioners.

This could be a murder plot (I have a list of targets that annoy me sorta thing), or a pro assasin and this is his method, or it could be a way of turning the populace against the police as part of a revolution (creating martyrs by tagging popular or pity inducing targets).

Of course, its harder to have an uber-civilized world where the problems in that world are the civilized variety. But MJ's fairly good at running ordinary life in his games.

I could see people being a lot more willing to shoot to settle issues. Daughter invites in punk to meet the folks, Daddy goes and doubletaps punk in the head with a LN shot, and drags punk's KO'ed body down to the garbage pile, and strolls back in whistling to tell his appalled daughter and grinning wife "I just took out the trash"....

Wed Feb 3 2010 5:27 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

One way to deal with things is to have an 'uber-civilized world' be threatened by some monster. In this case, perhaps another verser.

Yeah, once the verser gets settled, bring Bob Thomas into the scenario. The indigs don't have a chance, neither would most versers, but at least the character verser has live ammo.

Wed Feb 3 2010 6:19 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

Ya know, I remember an episode of Thundercats which was similar in principle to this. The Robear Burbles were farmers, and they were being attacked by these lizard things intent on stealing their food. The Robear Burbles fired stun darts that knocked the lizard guys out for a few seconds, then they got back up like nothing happened. Lion-O of course jumped in to defend the Robear Burbles. That scared off the lizard creatures, who went back and told their boss.

It turned out that the stun darts and the fighting was actually a ceremony of sorts. The Robear Burbles had more than enough food, they were willing to share, but the lizard people insisted on taking it by force. The Robear Burbles didn't want to kill them, but by honor, they had to defend their food from thieves. Firing the practically useless stun darts met their obligation to defend the food, and of course, the lizard people got to take by force what would have been freely given. Nobody actually got hurt, and everyone's honor was satisfied. Lion-O ruined the peace treaty and the lizards attacked en mass with intent to do real harm. I thought this might be useful.

Wed Feb 3 2010 6:39 am #
M. J. Young
Moderator

Although I see how the anesthetic idea could work, I'm really more interested in the concept of an honor system. I can just see one of the indigs saying to the verser, "What are you doing? You can't shoot back--you've been hit!"

--M. J. Young

Thu Feb 4 2010 2:29 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

Yeah, the verser is looking for some guns, goes into the gun store, and finds "All the latest in NERF technology for your self-defense needs." I think it should at least leave a visual marker. You get hit with a standard NERF dart, you might not realize it. If there's a big red stain on your chest, it's kind of indisputable.

Thu Feb 4 2010 2:44 am #
johnosevens
Member

All water-soluble, of course. Can't have these things leaving 'scars'.

Thu Feb 4 2010 3:14 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

What about body armor? Cowboys and Indians with your little brother "I shot you, you're dead." "No, I'm wearing a bulletproof vest." I think it even talks about exactly that in the rulebook. Another thing, a rose bush would do little to nothing to stop a real bullet. It would stop a NERF dart with no problem though. So body armor consists of wearing wire mesh or chicken wire around you, with holes too small for the darts to get in? What are the "Rules" to this kind of combat? If the dart got stuck in the wire mesh and it kept the dart a half inch away from your skin, did the wire mesh save your life? Do they have a referee on call to officiate police/criminal gunfights? If the referee rules that the cop was killed, the criminal gets to walk away with an additional murder charge? What about warfare between countries? Same thing? These are just some questions you need to be asking, and I have no idea what the answers might be.

(Doing Therapy)

Thu Feb 4 2010 3:28 am #
johnosevens
Member

I'm picturing airplanes going overhead spraying finely-misted red paint instead of napalm.

Thu Feb 4 2010 3:34 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

You've made me laugh twice today Osevens. I always liked the concept of wars being fought by a single champion from each side. Then, someplace small like Belgium could reasonably conquer the United States, and it's a level playing field. That's not why we're here though. What if someone actually does get injured or killed in one of these gunfights? "You'll shoot your eye out Ralphie" What happens then?

(Doing Therapy)

Thu Feb 4 2010 3:41 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

What are the penalties for not obeying the honor code? If you're running, get shot in the back, and keep running, what happens if it could be proven in court? Yeah, cops would start using real guns, but what about individual punishment? I think the only appropriate punishment for breaking the honor code would be to go before an actual firing squad. Police or criminal. "You don't want to play dead when we shoot NERF darts at you? OK, you can learn first hand why we were asking you to." Public executions for that, broadcast on TV. It wouldn't matter if it was the president of the country. He would be publicly executed for not "dying" after a successful "assassination".

(Doing Therapy)

Thu Feb 4 2010 4:01 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

Three

Not a tranquilizer, a chemical tag of some kind. If you don't neutralize it within 72 hours (or whatever) it starts giving off a really foul stench. In order to get it neutralized, you have to report yourself as "killed in a gunfight."

(Doing Therapy)

Thu Feb 4 2010 4:30 am #
johnosevens
Member

That works. Have the simulated injury inflicted for real, to show people why you obey. It's a bit over-the-top in that pulp sci-fi sort of way, but it's not without precedent.

Thu Feb 4 2010 4:36 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

Well, there has to be a way to enforce it. How about 1 in every 100 darts has a chemical tag in it? If not neutralized, you die the most excruciating death you could imagine within a week. Yeah, it's a 99% chance the dart that hit you won't really kill you, and it's OK to keep running, but that 1% isn't worth the risk. Everyone who reports as being killed gets the neutralizing agent, just to be on the safe side.

(Doing Therapy)

Thu Feb 4 2010 5:18 am #
Tadeusz
Member

In Starsong, the penalty for murder with a ranged weapon is outlawry. In other words, you have no legal protection against anything anyone does to you. Typically, you get chopped to pieces in the street, but you could legally be tortured to death.

I think the sim injury for real works better for this tho'.

Thu Feb 4 2010 5:20 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

In Starsong, the penalty for murder with a ranged weapon is outlawry. In other words, you have no legal protection against anything anyone does to you.

That was an episode of The Twilight Zone. Criminals were given a tattoo on their forehead, and as long as they had that tattoo, they didn't exist. No one would speak to them, or even acknowledge their existence, not even others with the same tattoo. You couldn't even get medical attention. It was cool though because you could steal anything you wanted, and no one would stop you. You didn't exist, after all.

I think the sim injury for real works best too, but I was just throwing out some ideas.

Thu Feb 4 2010 6:14 am #
Max
Member

How to simulate injury:

1) Hypnotic bullets (psi world)
2) Curse bullets (magic world)
3) Virtual or augmented reality through the use of forced brain transplant or other non-invasive technology (tech world)
4) A symbiote that sticks to any living things that acts like a judge or something (bod world)
5) Paralyzing poison or nano-bots

How to penalize the use of firearm:

1) Make the environment highly explosive or flammable
2) Make a curse that destroys any firearm after its use
3) Jamming device of some sort for high tech weapons

How to calculate damage:

Use multiplier for aiming and calculating damage of specific parts.
A GE roll can be used to choose the part.
Multiplier to head is equal to that person health thus representing death.

Thu Feb 4 2010 4:37 pm #
M. J. Young
Moderator

Yeah, cops would start using real guns, but what about individual punishment?

No that is individual punishment: you fail to drop when hit with the paintball/dart, and they shoot you with the real gun instead. Do you feel lucky, punk? They just proved they could hit you.

Of course, a lot of the ideas here complicate things. How do the police know if the thief is wearing body armor under his clothes such that 1) the shot in the back would not stop him and 2) he didn't feel it anyway?

The ideas for ways to force the effects of injury are all interesting, but the entire point is that the compulsion comes completely from the honor of the thing. As Ryan reported explaining to Kyler, think of it as Britain. Or think of it like the end of Pirates of Penzance, where after the massive Keystone Cops chase scene the head constable shouts, "We charge you yield in Queen Victoria's name," and the pirates all surrender, "because with all our faults, we love our Queen."

Yes there is a genuine comic element in all of it, but the real comedy comes, as Will Smith said of Men in Black, because Tommy Lee Jones--and in this case, everyone else, too--played it as if it were serious. Thus they observe Queensbury rules even in back alley fights. (The big problem with Downey's portrayal of Sherlock Holmes is that he fights like an Irishman, not an Englishman.)

And thus we have the image of the man shot in the arm by a paintball gun, continuing without the use of that arm, or the man dragging his paint-spattered leg as he attempts to escape, everyone "playing fair".

I suppose body armor is excluded because armor piercing bullets could be used, and thus other than that you might want to wear some protective gear to reduce the sting you can't claim you weren't injured by the shot. The problem remains if you don't know you've been hit, but "Stop, you in the blue, you've been hit!" is a fair warning before using real bullets, and probably anyone who was hit with a real bullet would recognize that he'd broken the rules, and would stop immediately, possibly saving his own life.

Of course, I don't think I could put John Cross in this world, but it has possibilities.

--M. J. Young

Thu Feb 4 2010 9:46 pm #
JohnA1nut
Member

No that is individual punishment: you fail to drop when hit with the paintball/dart, and they shoot you with the real gun instead. Do you feel lucky, punk? They just proved they could hit you.

Oh so the cops carry a paintball gun AND a real gun? I didn't realize that. I thought it was just paintballs, and they would only bring the big boys out if lots of people started defying the rules. I think that latter would probably work better for your scenario, if you really want it to be an honor-based system.

Of course, I don't think I could put John Cross in this world, but it has possibilities.

Cops who just have paintball guns, and I've got assault rifles?? COME ON MAN!!! LET'S DO IT!!!!!! They wouldn't know the difference, the assault rifle will still leave a red stain.....

Thu Feb 4 2010 10:27 pm #
JohnA1nut
Member

Two

Ya know MJ, if you REALLY want this to be a completely alien-to-the-verser, honor-based system, make it so real guns haven't even been invented. All throughout history, wars were fought with Counting Coup sticks. The paintball gun was a new invention. They never even tried to kill anyone. The society is so ingrained against real violence that the ONLY person who wouldn't obey the rules IS the verser. It's so deep into their culture and into their minds that even the concept of killing someone with a ranged weapon is completely foreign to them. You get shot with a paintball gun, you drop, no questions asked. You would get the occasional person who loaded marbles into their paintball gun, but that's about as dangerous as it would ever become.

I could imagine the verser being the one who introduces the concept of killing. Perhaps, like me, he has blacksmithing skills and starts building and selling muskets on the black market. This rise in death is unexplained. The person was found with a red stain. The person who found them thought they were playing dead, until they took a closer look, and recoiled in horror at what they had just seen. Something so alien to them that they never even considered it.

Thu Feb 4 2010 10:48 pm #
M. J. Young
Moderator

I had really sort of imagined the "real guns" being in the cars, locked up like some modern police cars keep shotguns--not so close that the cops would be able simply to change clips, but close enough that they didn't have to bring them to the scene from somewhere else.

I got some thoughts delivered by e-mail from someone who reads our forum faithfully but as far as I know never posts:

On the dart/paintball world:

You’ll need to think about how the system affects people who are neither police nor criminals. If criminals hold up a convenience store, do they paintball everyone or merely threaten to do so? I’m guessing that anyone shot must, by law, lie still or avoid using the painted limb until the police complete their investigation (meaning that if the police lose, they have to wait for more police). This would mean the cashiers might turn over the money to avoid losing business while playing dead, or they might fire back to force at least some of the robbers to surrender. (Could the other robbers legally drag their fellows away? Could they drag their victims away and demand ransom?)

Part of the incentive for the criminals to accept this is the possibility of defeating the police and getting away; this may set upper bounds on the technology level or lower bounds on legal privacy protection. (If there are cameras everywhere, getting one set of police to give up won’t help for long.)

If you do go with paintballs, color matters; wearing clothes which disguise the marks is a serious crime. (When I envision this, I imagine that only blood red counts as a hit, but people practice shooting with other colors so that stray shots won’t matter. You could have the police use a special color to mark criminals, though, or you could outlaw blood color entirely so real wounds are unmistakable.)

Is it a crime to paint someone except in law enforcement or self-defense? On one hand, citizens shouldn’t be punished too harshly when they stay within the rules; on the other, being shot is a serious inconvenience and may require a police investigation, so people shouldn’t be allowed to do it out of simple hatred unless wounds automatically stop counting after five minutes or something.

Does the honor system require that people pretend to fear guns or just that they acknowledge injuries? If someone tried to rob a bank with a paintball gun, would people act like the lives of hostages were at stake, or would they laugh because incapacitating everyone in the bank won’t open the vault and everything will be normal in twenty minutes?

I hope some of this helps.

Indeed it does. Just to touch on a few points:

I would say that civilians all respect the paintball system as well, and for similar reasons: they know that criminals could use lethal weapons and don't because they're willing to accept the honor system as long as everyone else does. I would also say that actually darting someone comes down as a criminal act, something on the order of assault with a deadly weapon, and not a mere inconvenience.

And yes, it would have to be a criminal offense to ignore a paintball marker if you were shot.

I would say that victims who had been darted could be moved by others legally. Obviously people would not take risks to drag injured persons out of the line of fire (in fact, an injured person makes a viable shield), but since darted criminals aren't dead there would be questions about whether they can be taken into custody and questioned--and the answer is probably yes, they can.

Probably the penalties for kidnapping someone who had been darted would have to be more severe than merely kidnapping someone, precisely because the victim is compromised: fleeing or resisting might be illegal.

The system disincentivizes shooting the witnesses, because that won't prevent them from testifying later and will be an additional crime.

I had been thinking about the color problem, and I'm actually inclined to go with something like hot pink or fluorescent lime green--something that would not be a usual color to wear, that would be distinct from real blood (for reasons already hinted in the thread), and would be visible to everyone.

I don't think it would be criminal to shoot each other with paint balls of other colors, provided everyone consents. There might be a problem, though, if criminals used wrong-color paint balls and shot victims in the back, hoping to escape criminal prosecution because they did not "shoot" anyone "legally" while still getting victims to believe they had been shot (feeling the impact but not being able to see the paint).

The honor system does not require that people pretend to fear guns, but I think that they would have some fear of them simply for the inconvenience factors raised. If I'm robbing the bank and you try to walk out the door, I can shoot you, and that means not only would it be a crime for you to leave the building now, you're going to be detained longer after the robbery is over, simply because you are a victim of the crime and no longer just a witness. But the problem of people not taking the threat seriously is a complicated one. I'm not sure how that would play out over time.

--M. J. Young

Fri Feb 5 2010 11:37 pm #
WilliamTWodium
Member

Also, the punishment for using deadly force must be worse than the punishments for the crimes we hope these criminals will commit with paintballs. If the penalty for bank robbery (for example) is death, why should I not use a real gun to rob the bank? For that matter, why should I allow myself to be arrested, tried, and executed on the strength of having been hit with a paintball?

Sat Feb 6 2010 5:26 am #
Max
Member

There could be a rumor or urban myth that said that anyone who disobeys the rule will be zap by a satellite from the sky which could be true or just a myth.
If it is just a myth then maybe the government will take action to quell the disbelievers.

A weapon with a homing tag could also be used.
This will reduce the need for two or more weapons.
The paint ball contains homing element which when hit the skin will activate armed mode on nearby weapons if the person sends a signal to move that part.

Sat Feb 6 2010 11:07 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

Ya know, I'm really starting to dislike this world a lot. MJ, you wanted an HONOR BASED SYSTEM (emphasizing, not yelling) What good is an HONOR BASED SYSTEM if there is on-the-spot punishment for disobedience? I would really be in favor of no real weapons at all. There is no one who does not obey the rule. Period. That's how deep into their culture it is. I really think that would work really well. The verser potentially introduces the concept of violence to an otherwise peaceful, loving group of people. A career criminal (killed in two gunfights, recently paroled) runs into the verser. The criminal is on the right track, he just knows it. He's got an idea in the back of his mind, that he just can't get to come forward. A serious advantage he could have, if he could just wrap his head around how to do it. Then the verser arrives and shows him a 357 magnum revolver. The criminal cries "Eureka!!! THAT'S IT!!!!!!" and builds the world's first explosive-driven slug thrower. No more will he play dead for paintballs when he can cause actual death. The world is in horror. What does the verser do? Does he encourage it or try to stop it? As I just described it, this would be an awesome world for me. I'd probably go into business with the guy, and use my metalworking skills and gun knowledge to help him build more. I mean, tell me you've never once secretly dreamed of being an unstoppable criminal with a superweapon.

(Doing Therapy)

Sat Feb 6 2010 11:19 am #
johnosevens
Member

I'm with A1Nut on this one. I like that. Kinda like how the Native Americans were horrified by people who did actual war instead of counting coup, it just isn't done any other way. People would be scandalized at the very suggestion.

Sat Feb 6 2010 2:21 pm #
JohnA1nut
Member

I'm with A1Nut on this one.

I was kind of looking forward to your reply, actually. I figured you of all people would really like that idea.

(Doing Therapy)

Sat Feb 6 2010 2:24 pm #
JohnA1nut
Member

Two

I just had this vision in my head of the verser or my imagined criminal walking through a barrage of police-fired paintballs, shooting bullets back at the police. It would look to them as miraculous as when the Terminator took the SWAT team fire in T2.

Sat Feb 6 2010 8:25 pm #
JohnA1nut
Member

Three

I can even tell you how it happens. The criminal was a chemistry major in college. Chemistry was kind of looked down upon though, and there were very few places where you could learn it, or even try it at all. Thus, synthetics are practically non-existent. Unable to find work, he turns to a life of crime. Good kid turned bad, you could say. He's heard rumors of a compound called "Black Powder", and another called "Mercury fulminate". These were deemed far too hazardous for any kind of application, and the research was buried. Anybody who might have considered using them to push a slug down a barrel is long dead. Through a great deal of leg work and perseverance, he finds the recipes to these substances. His brother, a machinist, has just perfected a rotary system to control the timing mechanism for a new kind of car engine. They've got all the makings of a revolver right there. They just haven't figured out how to put them together yet.

I'm envisioning 20th century comparable technology. However, because of this aversion to chemistry, and technology as a whole, it took them a millennium to get as far as we got between 1900 and 1980. The pneumatic paintball gun was deemed safe technology, due too its low power and range. However, they never invented lethal ranged weapons, and any research which might have led to the invention of one was buried and shunned.

(Doing Therapy)

Sun Feb 7 2010 1:41 am #
M. J. Young
Moderator

Well, there are a lot of problems with some of these ideas. For one thing, paintball guns only make sense (at least to me) as a substitute that replaced the real thing at some point.

The tracking idea is bad, because once you've hit someone with tracking compound they really can't escape (they could dump their clothes, of course, but that opens other possibilities for forensics).

I'm not uncomfortable with "honor system, but the police have real weapons available locked in the car." If you used real bullets, you might escape while they're getting their real guns. But I think it's still an honor system, because both the criminals and the police will treat the paintball shots as genuinely incapacitating, and no one will "pretend I didn't get hit" or even "pretend I didn't know I was hit". There's an honor system in most major graduate schools, but there are very tough penalties for breaking the honor code.

There's a secondary problem to all this: what about other kinds of weapons? Most crimes are not committed with real guns, but with real knives and other dangerous weapons.

The tertiary problem is criminals are going to have to buy paintball guns and the correct type of paintballs. Citizens would only need these for self-defense, specifically defense from other humans. It's not like you can use a hunting rifle for this. Weapons to shoot people would be different from weapons used for hunting.

But then, all really strange world ideas have gaps in them at some point that have to be figured out, right? Finding the problems is the first step toward fixing them.

--M. J. Young

Sun Feb 7 2010 4:37 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

It's not like you can use a hunting rifle for this.

On this world, a "hunting rifle" is flipping the pages of a phone book quickly, or searching through a drawer frantically looking for something. They've never heard of guns.

Well, there are a lot of problems with some of these ideas. For one thing, paintball guns only make sense (at least to me) as a substitute that replaced the real thing at some point.

Yeah, a REEEEAAALLLLLY long time ago. The devastation wrought was so horrific that the knowledge was destroyed, and, except for some highly educated people, lost to history forever. No one now really knows or cares why they use paintball guns. All they do know is that they are happy and no one ever really gets hurt, aside from some bruises. Why ask a bunch of stupid questions when you've got so much peace and happiness? The paintball guns aren't really all that common in use anyway. There isn't much crime, and the little that does happen is almost always committed with these weapons. Life is happy. Then, suddenly, a hold up at the bank. The police respond. The criminal comes outside, and opens fire with a paintball gun. He gets hit a few times, and goes down. Then sits back up, smiles, and opens fire with a 357 magnum, killing 4 police officers. The first recorded unnatural death in centuries. A stunned silence ripples throughout the world, and terror stalks the street. A new era of crime has just unfolded.

But I think it's still an honor system, because both the criminals and the police will treat the paintball shots as genuinely incapacitating, and no one will "pretend I didn't get hit" or even "pretend I didn't know I was hit".

MJ, I don't think you're seeing The Big Picture here. The guy in my illustration not only committed the first recorded murder he defied the honor system. Maybe the next criminal might decide to defy the honor system as well. The verser will almost certainly defy the honor system. The criminals might or might not have an explosive driven slug thrower, but still, the system is falling apart. Just like it did the last time, when the paintball guns were introduced in the first place. Only a hand full of historians are even aware of this deep, dark chapter in their history.

That IS a cool idea, you can't deny me that.

(Doing Therapy)

Sun Feb 7 2010 4:45 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

Two

MJ, I think your version of the story, with cops who have guns in the car, would be the early stages of my version. Perhaps an alpha and beta versions. In your version, the idea of an honor-based system is still new to everybody. There are still a few who think it stupid. Most people obey it. Things are getting better.

In my version, it's 1,000 years later. A Utopian society. Nobody really knows nor cares why the paintball guns are used, much like most people don't really know or care what "It's a piece of cake" really means (I don't, do you?) Life is good. Some people have turned the paintballing into a recreational sport which is watched on television. The police carry them, people buy them for self-defense. There's probably an NPBA (National Paintball Association) and talks of litigation and control. Just like it is now. The Honor System is what makes all that possible, and if someone were to defy The Honor System..... Oh what would we do then? Especially if that someone had a weapon a little bigger than a paintball gun. Releasing the demon onto the world of helpless children, so to speak. But fortunately, it hasn't happened in as long as anyone can remember, and everyone just accepts it as rule of law.

If the person shot doesn't realize they're hit, a verbal command "You've been shot" will cause them to look for a paintball hit, and upon seeing one, will drop to the ground, no questions asked.

Which, now that I think about it, is it's own Honor System. You don't call out "You've been shot" unless you actually scored a hit. Imagine a huge gunfight stopping abruptly after a command of "You've been shot" so everyone can check for hits, only to resume again once the "dead" shooter is identified.

(Doing Therapy)

Sun Feb 7 2010 6:17 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

Three

There are rules to The Honor System. You must stop shooting and surrender after being shot, but only if doing so would not cause a safety concern for yourself or others. (IE, if shot in the middle of a busy street, you stop shooting immediately, and drop to the ground as soon as you are safely across) If you are not a participant in the activities, you must drop to the ground for an appointed time, until cleared to leave. You're listed as an innocent victim. Children are taught The Honor System at school, and run simulated drills to show them what to do if shot. It's gently pounded into their heads from birth. To defy The Honor System would be a crime against humanity, and affront to everything this country stands for. You might as well sell your soul to the evil deity of your belief system. That's how much it is ingrained into them.

This criminal comes along. He builds an explosive driven slug thrower. He marches directly against a barrage of police paintball fire. It's not natural!! How can he do that? Forget the fact that he's shooting at us, He didn't fall down when he got shot!!!! Now drop Bob Thomas into the scenario. The verser, although no match for Bob Thomas, is the only hope anyone has of stopping him. Perhaps the verser inspires a criminal to build the superweapon. Perhaps the verser joins him. Perhaps the verser tries to stop him. This has a ton of potential to it, I think.

The verser meeting the criminal, could go down something like this. Verser has just arrived, he's getting his things together, and somebody shoots him with a paintball gun out of nowhere. The verser pulls his 357 and looks for the shooter.

Criminal "You've been shot" (expecting the verser to drop)
Verser "Yeah, and you're about to get shot."
Criminal "I SAID YOU'VE BEEN SHOT!!!!"
Verser "Do YOU want to get shot? Show yourself."

So the extremely confused criminal shows himself. In the course of their small talk, the criminal demonstrates the use of his weapon. Then the verser demonstrates the use of his..... The verser just introduced death, violence and inspired an already dangerous criminal and didn't even realize it.

I mean tell me this isn't COOL!!!!!!

(Doing Therapy)

Sun Feb 7 2010 8:05 am #
Tadeusz
Member

John,
Verrrry nice pun. It is a pun, right?

You seem to be describing a Contingency World.

I'd play it like so...Verser arrives in Dart J World, and sees how splendid it is. Two other worlds (random choices). Verser arrives in Dart MJ World. Verser unleashes genie. Verser then has Grand Realization..."I realize this is a thousand years in the past of Splendid World because of paintballs and because the king is Rochester Knickerbocker and in Splendid World the king was Rochester Knickerbocker the 17th. OH NO! I've just messed up a wonderful future. What can I do to stuff the genie back into the bottle?"

Sun Feb 7 2010 4:28 pm #
JohnA1nut
Member

Verrrry nice pun. It is a pun, right?

What pun?

Oh "Hunting Rifle" yeah, I was thinking what other meanings does "rifle" have, and what would you be doing if you were doing a "hunting rifle"?

Sun Feb 7 2010 4:36 pm #
JohnA1nut
Member

Eric, Splendid world would be the world where the genie is unleashed. Did you ever see Demolition Man? I'm envisioning a future like that one. And just as they were completely helpless and unequipped to deal with Simon Phoenix, so too this world is completely helpless and unequipped to deal with a criminal with a gun. It's also a not-too-subtle nod to why guns are needed in society. The verser of course is the only one who could deal with the threat. Making him "That Guy." Or he could decide to escalate the threat, which is probably what I would do. Being an unstoppable criminal with a superweapon does sound like a fun story. In that case, eventually, the indigs would need to develop the means to stop you, but even then, you would still be going against police who had (at most) 1@3 gun skill. I think this could be really cool.

(Doing Therapy)

Mon Feb 8 2010 8:08 am #
kyler
Member

... just another reason why skill with martial arts is better than skill with a firearm....

Mon Feb 8 2010 3:00 pm #
Nikolaj
Member

I think what Mark was trying to do was have this method of 'killing' as a accepted system. It has a power of authority of it's own behind it. The law, and police men as well.

Compare it to the traffic regulations. You do not run a red light, because the cars would run you over. If you cross at a pedestrian crossing, the cars have to stop for you, how-ever small and week you are compared to that SUV or bus. People don't just run you over. It's a system, and it works. It protects.

Am I right Mark?

Mon Feb 8 2010 10:24 pm #
M. J. Young
Moderator

That's a good analogy, Nikolaj. Of course, some people do run red lights, sometimes just because they think they can get away with it. But yes, the idea here is that the social contract of this society says that when you're hit with a paintball you play dead, and people would no more ignore that than they would--well, I was going to say "urinate on a city street", but I understand people do that, too.

--M. J. Young

Mon Feb 8 2010 11:38 pm #
Brock
Member

no more than they would purposefully urinate on themselves while completely sober. That's much less likely than doing so on the street, if you ask me.

I really like this idea. I follow a strong code of honor myself, particularly in relation to honesty. I think I could get to like that world, and in John's iteration, would work to preserve the system, rather than let it be destroyed. In other words, I'd "Play By Da Rulez".

Wed Feb 10 2010 11:23 pm #
JohnA1nut
Member

Ya know, I had a thought. What if the paintballs WERE lethal at some point? Maybe they were poisonous or the people weren't strong enough to take a hit from a paintball, and it had the same effect as a bullet. After a while, the people developed the necessary bod skills that it didn't kill them anymore, or the police stopped using poisoned paintballs. However, the people still went down when shot. That could be how it got into their culture to begin with. The people don't want the police to go back to poisoned ammo or something.

(Doing Therapy)

Sun Feb 14 2010 2:48 pm #
johnosevens
Member

Maybe not poisonous paintballs, but a tradition of blowgun darts? Maybe compressed-air weapons developed in their culture to replace blowguns, rather like the crossbow and then the rifle replacing the longbow in ours?

Mon Feb 15 2010 1:46 am #
kyler
Member

I think it's really a more a question of what is acceptable on society's terms and what isn't. All crimes are against the law by nature, but some crimes are also taboo enough that when a person is arrested for them, they could be killed while they're incarcerated. In our world, someone who urinates on the street and then fails to pay their fines will be laughed at, someone who kills another person will be feared and respected, and someone who is arrested for a sexually based crime possibly won't see the light of day again. I would propose a shift in this world to where an individual who kills ignites society to the degree that the vast majority of people have no mercy for the person who has broken the honor code in that regard.

I prefer the idea of firearms existing and being relatively attainable for the purpose of hunting, but it being taboo to use them against people over the idea of firearms never being invented -- I think it isn't the letter but the spirit of the idea that matters most. I would even like to see it go a step further, from anyone who uses an explosive-driven slug thrower instead of a paintball gun is in deep trouble to anyone who purposefully kills another person with intent is going to have to deal with not only the national authorities of the world mobilizing to neutralize the threat but also the great majority of the populace trying to kill them in lynch mobs and the sort.

How about this idea... you kill someone without knowing the laws of the world, and you're later captured. You're put on trial, and although you try to explain that you didn't realize that the criminal didn't have a real gun, there's no precedent for this kind of defense since it's common knowledge that no one intends to kill another person. Thus, it is the order of the court that you're ... what? Executed? I prefer the idea of enslaving the verser, or forcing them to act as a gladiator in a government-sanctioned event. A world which detests violence to the degree that they outlaw killing people would probably pay a lot of money to watch violent events, especially if they're watching killers kill each other.

I've probably gotten off topic, but I still think that killing in this world should be the highest level of taboo and ignite such hatred that the murderer should stand little or no chance of getting away with it. I would even go so far as to try to come up with a way, magical, psionic, or techonological by which all people are supervised and marked if they kill another person with intent. That could even make for a good plot, if someone were to act against the law and the law were to dub them a "killer" and mark them in order to have them eliminated.

Ky

Mon Feb 15 2010 6:31 pm #

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