Can a portal lead to the deep supernatural?
What would happen if someone accidentally go through that portal?
Can a person take a peek of what is on the other side of the portal?
What is the alternate way to go to the deep supernatural?
Deep supernatural, portal and consequences
(21 posts) (8 voices)-
I haven't looked it up, but I believe the answers are no, not possible, no, and "could you please rephrase the question?", respectively.
John - that portion of the supernatural realms from which no return is possible.
Sat Apr 10 2010 8:25 pm # -
Yes.
Sat Apr 10 2010 9:00 pm # -
johnosevens
MemberThe Deep Supernatural is (among other things) the realm of gods. As I understand it, the ability to reach out of the Deep Supernatural and into the Multiverse is what defines the difference between absurdly powerful mortals/Versers and actual deities. I could be wrong, but I'm sure I've heard that somewhere.
Sun Apr 11 2010 5:12 am # -
Brock
MemberAs I understand it, a Do Anything spell could take you there, and I think there are ways to arrive there by going through the supernatural realms that are NOT Deep. I seem to recall MJ relating a story of a character visiting Narnia who had the4 opportunity to enter the Deep Supernatural.
Sun Apr 11 2010 6:02 pm # -
But no one can enter the Deep Supernatural unless permitted.
Sun Apr 11 2010 6:11 pm # -
Max
Memberno one can enter the Deep Supernatural unless permitted.
What kind of being is permitted to enter (good, neutral, evil, chaotic, lawful?) and how do you simulate this permission using the Multiverser rules?
Would that being have to ask permission first before entering or will the chance to enter be offered to that being?Sun Apr 11 2010 6:21 pm # -
I meant "permitted (by some entity)," on a case-by-case basis. Entities with the authority to extend such permission would be far enough beyond my comprehension that I would avoid trying to explain their motives and criteria whenever possible.
(This is basically code for "it doesn't happen unless the referee lets it.")
Asking and offering could occur, I suppose, but I imagine it's also possible for it be entirely unstated.
Sun Apr 11 2010 6:35 pm # -
Entering the deep supernatural is in essence the most certain way to cease to be a verser--and to be a player character, as the moment you enter it you have stepped outside time and space and "reality" so completely that there is no return and no way to communicate to the player what his character is experiencing.
In the end of The Chronicles of Narnia: The Last Battle, a door is opened, and those who pass through it find themselves in a "more real" version of Narnia; they then race each other to the next door, beyond which is a yet "more real" version. These are still border supernaturals, but they are moving toward the deep supernatural. Eventually there is no return, and no mortal comprehension of what is discovered.
The deep supernatural is neither spatial nor temporal in any way we could understand, and yet it is territorialized (by those who live within it) and its denizens interact and undergo change.
I would never tell a player that his character can't enter the deep supernatural, but I would never allow him to create a gate to it, even accidentally. Such gates are created by those entities Scott describes whom we could simply call "gods" to bring mortals to their final rest or reward or whatever awaits. I would try to warn the player that once his character steps through that gate, the game ends immediately.
Anyone who was able to look through such a gate (I would not think it possible to do without passing through it) would find himself viewing the end of Kubrick's 2001: A Space Odessey in twelve dimensions on steroids. It would be completely beyond his comprehension and might induce some form of insanity. That's assuming that the observing itself did not trap him irrevocably within the deep supernatural, which is the most likely result.
In short, the deep supernatural is off limits to players; any knowledge of it is entirely speculative.
--M. J. Young
Sun Apr 11 2010 8:09 pm # -
Tadeusz
MemberTry WAW Hermit.
I also stuck one of my less original ideas in the Tower of Rhodes setting. The Forever Door leads you into an awesomely beatiful garden which is guarded by archangels. There's another door on the far side of the garden. Step through it...
The locals don't really understand what the Forever Door is, they only know that if you step through it, you don't come back. And the Tower of Rhodes setting is an insanely magical setting (the sun is a giant candle...)
Mon Apr 12 2010 3:28 am # -
If you mean that the player would thereafter control a divine agent on behalf of a deity, I would say that it's a lot better for the player character to become that divine agent without crossing into the deep supernatural--there's no reason any player character can't become an agent of his deity, given the right opportunities and commitment to his faith. Several high-level player characters perceive themselves as such, in one form or another (the Architect and Tadeusz are obvious ones, but Michael di Vars would also count).
If I were to "grant the player an avatar" I would most likely tell him that the last thing he remembers is passing through the door that was supposed to lead to the deep supernatural, and now he's somewhere else (wherever he would be sent), but then I'd make major changes to his equipment based on what I think his deity wants him to have (a lot of stuff would be gone because it's not necessary, and there would be a few new items, and probably new skills granted for the use of these). I would also tell him outright at particular moments that he knows what he is expected to do, and what that is, and let him decide whether he'll do it (it won't always appear sane and it will often be dangerous). In any case, the player character would have a lot less autonomy at that point, because he's an agent of a deity whose expectations are a lot higher and more specific than they were when he was a verser.
--M. J. Young
Mon Apr 12 2010 11:25 pm # -
Tadeusz
MemberOne alternate method to get to the Deep Supernatural...
Change the universe to the DS or a Border Supernatural.
When MJ was in Starsong, Earth was largely out of contact with the surrounding universe. It was a generally accepted rule of thumb that creating a superintelligence was creating an insane creature with godlike powers. So, creating supers was highly frowned on, and this had been tried many times to bad effect. However, Earth aka Manhome, thought they had a way around this conundrum.
If they succeeded in creating a planetfull of people who could in Vinge's words...'any logically coherent wish is possible to every person', aka The Singularity, that might pass as turning part of a material universe into the Border Supernatural.
When Oak confronted something of the same problem on the moon Avalon??, the solution was to turn the universe into a Border Supernatural with guardian spirits to look after the humans who had just been gifted with godlike powers.
A similar situation arises in the Emerald Dukes universe where they are having a magical singularity, a snowballing race forward in bias and magical power. At some point, the likely result is the physical rules of the universe cannot contain the people inside it.
Tue Apr 13 2010 1:34 am # -
Max
Memberit's a lot better for the player character to become that divine agent without crossing into the deep supernatural
There are a lot of reasons that a mortal does not know. The deity might let the verser to go to the deep supernatural to be closer to the verser as a reward. The deity might also do it to cleanse the soul of the verser then give the verser an avatar to control later on. The reason to give the verser an avatar to control could be anything such as being an agent or just trying to observe the action of the verser after getting an avatar.
In any case, the player character would have a lot less autonomy at that point, because he's an agent of a deity whose expectations are a lot higher and more specific than they were when he was a verser.
Interesting concept. I would like to meet such avatar in the verse.
Wed Apr 14 2010 3:53 pm # -
Just to put it simply, the rules make it clear that no player character has ever been inside the deep supernatural, and the only characters you can meet who come from there are native residents of that realm.
This prevents any religious issues from arising as to the nature of the real heaven or the real hell, who really is God, and anything of that sort. The residents of the deep supernatural won't reveal it (or if they do, there's no way of verifying what they say), and mortals cannot go get the answers and bring them back. In essence, it prevents both the game creators and the game referees from imposing particular religious views beyond the essence of ethical monotheism with innumerable lesser god-like spirit beings on the game situation. It is an essential part of the cosmology that it cannot be explored.
--M. J. Young
Thu Apr 15 2010 1:03 am # -
Max
MemberHow do you calculate skill success rate if the person is standing in between the portal?
Does the calculation depends on the nature of the portal?
Does the portal have a bias on its own for the people currently crossing it?
If this is the case, what would happen if the person is passing through two portals which means that the person in currently in three worlds?Tue May 25 2010 5:25 pm # -
Portals, in themselves, do not have internal space, and thus you cannot really be "in" the portal. Portals which appear to have internal space do so because they are really two portals connected through another universe, which might be as small as the connection between the two portals. In these cases, the interior space of the portal is its own universe with its own biases, as determined by the referee; the creation of the portal need not be possible within that portal universe, because the portal was created from outside it.
The problem arises because so many portals (at least in fiction) are like doors, in that you can stick part of yourself through them and be "on both sides". Usually that's not a problem, because characters tend simply to "step through" them to the other side, or at least don't do anything while passing through the portal other than move through it. Max, though, has attempted to perform skills within the portal. There are three ways I can see handling this.
- My preference would be to ask the player character on which side of the portal he presently considers himself to be, and use the biases of that universe, as long as a relevant part of the character is on that side of the portal. I might require that all relevant parts be on that side. That is, if you are casting a spell that requires that you say something and that you manipulate an object with your hands, then your mouth must be within the universe sufficiently that this is where the words are produced and your hands and the object must be within that universe the entire time. If you cast part of the spell in one universe and part of the spell in another, then either
- you did not cast the spell completely in either universe and therefore you did not cast the spell, or
- you moved from one universe to the other while casting the spell, and the biases which apply are those of the universe in which you completed the casting.
- A character who insists that he is in the portal passing between the universes would be ruled as being not in any universe, and thus in a nowhere where the biases are all 0@0. This incidentally would suggest that a character might be stuck in that position--if he has managed to stop his movement through the portal in such a way that he is "in" the portal, it can be argued that he cannot continue that movement except by the successful use of an @1 or @0 skill that will give him the necessary momentum to do so. It would also eliminate most skill use and make the remaining skill use extremely difficult, which solves a lot of my problems about why a character might want to be there.
- If there is any suggestion that the interior of the portal is an actual space--not simply a zero-thickness boundary between two worlds--I would rule that the character is in that universe, and give it whatever biases seem appropriate to me for whatever kind of portal it is. Magical portals pass through the border supernatural, so I would look to the conceptions of the border supernatural that are consistent with the major religion(s) of the world in which the gate was created. Psionic portals are much more random, and suggest the sorts of referee fiat considered already. Technological dimensional portals are very specific to the science and equipment being used, and so have to be considered on a case-by-case basis; they generally are limited to related universes, but biases might still vary according to where you are. Probably, though, there is no "space" within a technological portal and you'll be treated as being on one side or the other. Body-based interdimensional travel does not use portals, and thus the body is on one side or the other.
In short, for practical purposes there is no skill use "in" the portal; the referee decides on which side you are located, and uses the biases of that world, or else envisions a third universe serving as the passage between the two and places you in it.
--M. J. Young
Tue May 25 2010 10:06 pm # - My preference would be to ask the player character on which side of the portal he presently considers himself to be, and use the biases of that universe, as long as a relevant part of the character is on that side of the portal. I might require that all relevant parts be on that side. That is, if you are casting a spell that requires that you say something and that you manipulate an object with your hands, then your mouth must be within the universe sufficiently that this is where the words are produced and your hands and the object must be within that universe the entire time. If you cast part of the spell in one universe and part of the spell in another, then either
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