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Started 2 years ago by JohnA1nut
Latest reply from M. J. Young

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JohnA1nut
Member

There was a Saturday morning cartoon called Dungeons and Dragons on when I was a kid. I just got in on DVD from NetFlix. Gary Gygax was a producer of the show. One of the characters was a neophyte wizard with a magic hat. He would botch on his magic more often than not. The thing was, he ONLY botched in practice. Tried to pull out hamburgers for instance, and pulled out a live cow. Another that he had is he tried to conjure up a torch, and ended up with a birthday cake with about 100 candles on it. Would that be a success or a botch? I'm not certain. He DID end up with a fiery light source, which is what he was after. However, if it was important to the show, his magic always worked like a charm. Either that or the unexpected botch would get them out of the jam they were in anyway. Pretty much backwards to this. I just thought it interesting. The show is pretty cool too, for an 80s Saturday morning cartoon, that is.

(Doing Therapy)

Mon Apr 5 2010 2:51 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

Two

Another botch-but-not was he produces a Civil War style artillery cannon. Whilst searching for a cannonball, he starts pulling out ball bearings by the handful. Those would make acceptable cannon fodder. He throws them on the ground and the bad guy slips on them. (An example of the botch getting them out of the jam anyway) It was a cool show.

(Doing Therapy)

Mon Apr 5 2010 4:53 am #
Brock
Member

Yep. I'd heard of that show. never saw it, but heard of it. I play the game the show is based on, though. as to your question...

sounds to me like he has skills that Do Anything (15@10), but that they are holy magic and the god he is asking help from takes every request extremely literally. So sometimes he does botch, but most of the stuff he does is the manifestation of the god's sense of humor.

It could also be an arcane skill that simply does anything but literally follows what he says. Or they could all be separate skills (conjure light source, conjure cannon type weapon) that are literal to what he says. I doubt very much that all of those situations are botches.

Mon Apr 5 2010 6:47 pm #
JohnA1nut
Member

Brock, it was probably on before you were alive. (And I feel so old saying that) It's a cool show. If you have NetFlix, I recommend checking it out.

Mon Apr 5 2010 7:34 pm #
M. J. Young
Moderator

I watched a few episodes. It was rather unlike the game. The central characters were not natives of the world in which they adventured but had fallen into it from a world like ours. The "Dungeon Master" was a character who appeared from time to time to give advice but did not seem to be in control of anything. The ranger's bow was magical such that it created a force object arrow when drawn, the thief's only real talent was an invisibility cloak, the paladin was probably the least likely candidate for the calling.

As to the hat, it was probably an Active by Caprice device, which when used did "something" loosely related to the users expectations.

The adventurers did not have skills but that they could use their bequeathed magic items. I suspect that Gary had his tongue planted firmly in his cheek on this one, making fun of the perceptions people had of the game while taking away a lot of the public suspicion of it.

--M. J. Young

Tue Apr 6 2010 12:01 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

The ranger's bow was magical such that it created a force object arrow when drawn, the thief's only real talent was an invisibility cloak, the paladin was probably the least likely candidate for the calling.

I think you mean the Cavalier. (Eric, the guy with the magic shield?) I'm surprised you remember it at all.

It was
Cavalier, (Magic Shield)
Ranger, (Energy Bow)
Acrobat, (Magic pole vaulting staff)
Barbarian, (Magic club)
Magician (Magic hat)
Thief. (Invisibility cloak)

In what ways is this similar to the real D&D?

(Doing Therapy)

Tue Apr 6 2010 5:28 am #
WilliamTWodium
Member

All I know is that players of D&D tend not to like to talk about the show.

Tue Apr 6 2010 5:54 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

You never played D&D Scott? I was wondering if you could tell me the significance of those characters to D&D. Are those different character choices to take as your character? I'd probably want the Barbarian or the Thief.

(Doing Therapy)

Tue Apr 6 2010 6:01 am #
WilliamTWodium
Member

John, I've played D&D since I was seven years old. I've never seen the show, though.

(Edit: That doesn't mean I couldn't talk about the character choices, but I'm on my way to work at the moment . . .)

Tue Apr 6 2010 5:28 pm #
Brock
Member

Most of the classes exist in some supplement or another, if not in the main book. their similarity to the show, though, is debatable.

The main book has a variety, depending on edition. 2nd edition had Wizards, priests, warriors, rogues, and specialties of those base classes if you had a high enough statistic in some areas.

My memory may not serve too well, but I recall warriors could be rangers or paladins, priests could be druids, rogues could be bards and...acrobats?, and wizards could be a specialist in any of the schools of magic-evocation, illusion, enchantment, divination, necromancy, conjuration, or a generalist with no specialty (did I forget a school?).

3rd edition made each specialty it's own class instead of a specialty class. They added Barbarians and sorcerers (different from the wizard, innate magic rather than learned), the bard and paladin and druid and rangers and specialist wizards returned, and there are TONS of other classes you can find in supplemental books (or even make some yourself). (did I forget a class here?)

I haven't messed with 4th edition.

Tue Apr 6 2010 7:33 pm #
johnosevens
Member

You forgot Transmutation, and in 3rd thre are also Fighters who don't 'become' anything, they're just a pile of feats with a sword sticking out. Other than that, spot on.

Wed Apr 7 2010 1:09 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

You should check out the cartoon. NetFlix is awesome. I would recommend it to anyone.

(Doing Therapy)

Wed Apr 7 2010 1:12 am #
WilliamTWodium
Member

Also Abjuration, concerned primarily with wards and counterspells.

Wed Apr 7 2010 4:10 am #
M. J. Young
Moderator
Ah, Cavalier. Yes, that was where I made my mistake, but it's easy to see why. Cavaliers (and Barbarians and Acrobats) were not in the original rules, but added in Unearthed Arcana. Paladins were originally a subclass of Fighters, but became a subclass of Cavaliers when the Cavalier class was introduced, and the Paladin class revamped accordingly.

I don't have a lot of time on my hands tonight to talk about how it the cartoon or is not like D&D, but I can point you in what might be a helpful direction. First, in D&D players are not themselves as characters, but are "roleplaying" someone else who has none of their knowledge or skills but instead has the knowledge and skills appropriate to race and class.

You can find out about those specific classes by following these links:
I think if you read the class descriptions, you'll probably see why the characters in the cartoon were so unlike those in the game.

--M. J. Young
Wed Apr 7 2010 6:20 am #
Brock
Member

Ahh, i always forget transmutation. I can't believe i forgot abjuration, though. Speaking of transmutation, one wizard in one of my games used a very impressive spell combination.

It was against a dragon, I forget which type, in his cave. First, the transmuter PC used Stop Time. Then he used Transmute Rock to Mud on the ceiling directly above the dragon, covering it's back in mud. Then he used Transmute Mud to Rock on the mud on the dragon's back, making it slam into the ground due to the weight. Stop Time wore off here, I think. Then he used Reverse Gravity to make him slam into the ceiling. Then his companion cleric used that spell that opens a crevice in the ground (Earthquake?), and the wizard canceled his reverse gravity to drop the dragon neatly in the hole. Then he used Transmute Rock to Lava on the rock that was STILL on top of him, and the cleric closed the ground and sealed it in, squishing it while it melted.

I couldn't stop laughing for the next 10 minutes. Ah, the joys of an intelligent player playing a transmuter.

Wed Apr 7 2010 9:20 pm #
WilliamTWodium
Member

It would never work in my game; time-stopped mud does not fall. For that matter, time-stopped rock upon which Transmute Rock to Mud has been cast does not transmute until time is no longer stopped. The trick could be preserved (and improved) with a few minor changes, though.

Tangentially-related story:

In the underdark, my surface-dwelling companions and I were charged by over a dozen duegar mounted on giant spiders; while my companions readied themselves for a difficult fight, I cast Wall of Force (10' by 100', invisible). Next round, the duegar's charge is broken rather abruptly against the wall, and I follow up with Transmute Rock to Mud (10' deep by 20' by 100') along the wall's length. The duegar began to sink, but it was apparent that a few might swim to safety - so I used my Stone of Summoning Earth Elementals. The servant thus called had no trouble pushing the remaining foes deep into the muck.

My companions put away their weapons unused. In hindsight, it seems unsporting, but I was only trying to be as effective as I could under the circumstances.

Thu Apr 8 2010 5:01 pm #
M. J. Young
Moderator

Yeah, I had the same questions regarding whether things could change during stopped time; but since no one ever used the spell in any of my OAD&D games I am not familiar with its parameters and would have to have looked it up to be certain.

And it is never unsporting to use whatever skills you have against an enemy aggressor, as long as you are not already guilty of some wrong which they are justly avenging, and even then it's arguable.

--M. J. Young

Thu Apr 8 2010 10:37 pm #
WilliamTWodium
Member

Oh, I meant toward my companions. I might ought at least to have let one fire an arrow or something.

Fri Apr 9 2010 4:03 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

And it is never unsporting to use whatever skills you have against an enemy aggressor, as long as you are not already guilty of some wrong which they are justly avenging, and even then it's arguable.

I just had a thought here. Verne Troyer. Played Mini Me in Austin Powers. If he were to break into the home of bodybuilder Lou Ferrigno, who played The Incredible Hulk, it would not be unsporting for Lou to use whatever talents he has against the enemy aggressor? This is why you should never say never. Don't speak in absolute terms. There's ALWAYS an exception to EVERY rule.

And I'm using and emphasizing absolutes, aren't I? Oh well. There's got to be a little wiggle room somewhere.

(Doing Therapy)

Fri Apr 9 2010 4:29 am #
Max
Member

I also wonder about time stop. If the time is stopped then what can be changed?
Can the caster choose what kind of time still runs such as the caster, the surrounding such as air to breathe, and the things that the caster wanted to manipulate?
Would the above sound more like stopping space rather than stopping time?

I also remembered a skill called "Overdrive" that gives the user infinity speed (which probably cannot be done in normal physics world considering the light speed limit) which will make the user perceive the others time to stop. Would this be considered as a "time stop"/"infinity speed" relative to "the user"/"the others"?

Would stopping material world from moving but would let spirit realm free to move be considered as time stop or is this material plane stop?

If a person have the ability to stop space of an area, the area inside the space would probably appear black because the light is stopped. If there are additional radius to slow the movement of things before reaching the stopped space, the things thrown to the stopped place would probably be compressed more when trying to get to the stopped space. When the stopped space is resumed, the things that are thrown to the stopped space would probably decompress if it can and this will probably lunge the thing to the space with greater speed. If it cannot decompress then it will probably just falls down. If air is compressed to the limit near stopped space, it would probably cause an explosion when it decompressed.

Fri Apr 9 2010 6:51 pm #
M. J. Young
Moderator

If a person have the ability to stop space of an area, the area inside the space would probably appear black because the light is stopped.
I'm not sure of this. After all, the light is stopped, but is still where it was. Thus if you move you should be able to see the light that is where you go.

The physics of eyesight would then be called into question, but you've got to allow some things to work in unexpected ways (which is one reason why Multiverser does not tie bod skills to the tech bias even when it appears it should, unless tech objects are involved).

--M. J. Young

Sat Apr 10 2010 12:00 am #
JTM
Member

It wouldn't interact properly with the lens while immobile.

Sat Apr 10 2010 1:40 am #
Max
Member

the area inside the space would probably appear black because the light is stopped.

I mean when viewed from outside of stopped area. When viewed inside the area, that person would not notice anything because their space is stopped. If a spirit can move freely within that space then the spirit would probably see the event viewed from before the space is stopped. If the spirit have the ability to manipulate reality of stopped space, the spirit will probably still see the event viewed from before the space is stopped unless the spirit changed the light that is on the spirit eye position to match the manipulated reality.

Sat Apr 10 2010 2:32 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

What's the point in stopping time if you can't do anything with it when you do? Didn't you ever see Clockstoppers? They would pull pranks on people when they stopped time. THAT would be fun!!!

(Doing Therapy)

Sat Apr 10 2010 2:36 am #
WilliamTWodium
Member

James - if you're willing to ignore that the caster moves around and casts other spells while time is stopped, why draw the line at allowing him to see?

Maxx - if the spell in question had an area of effect, your points might be valid, but I believe D&D's Time Stop is defined in terms of (apparent) duration rather than area of effect. Time stops for everyone but the caster. He can move and affect objects in his possession (and take possession of objects not in the possession of other creatures), and he can cast spells whose durations will begin to take effect once time restarts, but he cannot harm or otherwise affect other creatures for the duration of Time Stop.

Sat Apr 10 2010 4:21 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

So he can't do the Bugs Bunny thing and put an anvil right above the guy's head so it falls when time restarts? That wouldn't be fun at all.

(Doing Therapy)

Sat Apr 10 2010 4:30 am #
Max
Member

put an anvil right above the guy's head so it falls when time restarts?

If the anvil is in his possession (or by taking the possession of it if it is not in the possession of other creatures), then giving the possession away such that the object will suspend in space, that could be done.

The caster would also have to take the possession of light of the object that the caster wants to see so that the light can be seen by the caster.
That raises several questions.
Could the caster see a light spell cast by the others in the dark cave?
(I think the caster would see the surrounding like before the time had stopped but only instantly because any light that hit the caster eye would resume. The light spell is not cast by the time stop caster so I do not think that the time stop caster can take the possession of light unless the referee ruled otherwise. The time stop caster could continue to see albeit instantly if the time stop caster moves from the original position.)
If an opponent cast a light blast that may injure the time stop caster, would taking the possession of light injure the time stop caster?
(I think that the light blast would not injure the time stop caster unless the time stop caster gets into the area of the light blast when the time is stopped. The time stop caster could probably see other light which is not in the possession of the other.)

Sat Apr 10 2010 1:42 pm #
WilliamTWodium
Member

The caster would also have to take the possession of light of the object that the caster wants to see so that the light can be seen by the caster.

Not true. Since the caster is not stopped in time, he can see normally. He doesn't have to "take possession" of the air around him in order to move, either; since time flows normally for him, he is not affected by these things. It is only when his actions would infringe on other creatures* that he is restricted.

Magic cares much more about the rights of beings than about trivial physical technicalities.

*'creature': anything with at least one D&D ability score

Sat Apr 10 2010 6:26 pm #
Max
Member

What about if there is a creature made from light that lives in dark caves?
Can the caster see that creature when the time is stopped?
If the caster wants the light to move normally, would the light creature be able to move during the time stop?

Sat Apr 10 2010 8:48 pm #
WilliamTWodium
Member

If there is a creature made of light, time stops for it and not for the caster. If the caster would be able to see the creature under normal circumstances, he would still be able to see the creature during the effect of Time Stop.

The caster of Time Stop has no control over the parameters of the spell. It does what it does.

Sat Apr 10 2010 9:00 pm #
johnosevens
Member

You're all missing something incredibly basic. D&D's Time Stop spell does not actually literally stop time. It's basically Haste on steroids. That's why you can't have them both active at the same time - not because you can't speed yourself up while time is stopped, but because you have already sped yourself up to the point where 'speed' is arbitrary - there simply is no faster to go. They don't really explain that very clearly any more, but as I recall that's how it is - Time Stop is closer to an advanced Haste effect than it is to actual temporal manipulation.

Sun Apr 11 2010 5:16 am #
Max
Member

D&D's Time Stop spell does not actually literally stop time. It's basically Haste on steroids.

That sounds very much like the "Overdrive" skill that I mention earlier.

Sun Apr 11 2010 12:32 pm #
WilliamTWodium
Member

O'Sevens, I was ignoring that on purpose because I can't stand it. It's a coward's way out of having to explain to your players that magic breaks physical rules. The spell is called Time Stop, it should bloody well stop time.

Besides, that's a recent change. In 2nd Edition AD&D (which is what I grew up on), it really does stop time. So there. (*sticks out tongue at O'Sevens*)

Sun Apr 11 2010 4:59 pm #
JohnA1nut
Member

Scott, I'm forced to wonder, what difference does it make? If time is stopped, or if you're moving so fast you could spend an hour in only a millisecond, what difference does it make? You're moving and they aren't. It's semantics really.

Sun Apr 11 2010 5:18 pm #
WilliamTWodium
Member

If it's an enhanced version of Haste, why can't the mage hit his enemies with his sword like a Hasted warrior can?

Also, stopping time is way cooler. It's a ninth level spell (the highest level there is), I've worked hard to get it; I want time to actually stop.

Sun Apr 11 2010 5:36 pm #
Max
Member

If it's an enhanced version of Haste, why can't the mage hit his enemies with his sword like a Hasted warrior can?

An interesting question. If time stop does not have that kind of limitations, killing an enemy would probably be too easy.
I do wonder what will happen if a mage try to hit the enemy with his sword during time stop.
Would the sword break?
Would the enemy be able to move when it is being hit by the sword?

Sun Apr 11 2010 5:54 pm #
Brock
Member

Hmm. Why not have Time Stop do as advertised, and then make an advanced Haste spell which gives extra physical actions each turn (without increasing the wizard's accuracy, so other accuracy spells are needed for maximum effectiveness).

Sun Apr 11 2010 6:06 pm #
WilliamTWodium
Member

I do wonder what will happen if a mage try to hit the enemy with his sword during time stop.

During Time Stop, the sword would simply halt when it contacted the enemy, with no deleterious effect to the enemy, the sword, or the caster.

Sun Apr 11 2010 6:10 pm #
Max
Member

During Time Stop, the sword would simply halt when it contacted the enemy, with no deleterious effect to the enemy, the sword, or the caster.

Would this apply to projectile weapons such as arrows and bullets such that when the time is resumed the projectiles will hit the enemy or would the projectiles drop to the ground when the time is resumed?

Sun Apr 11 2010 6:26 pm #
WilliamTWodium
Member

That's a good question. I suspect if anyone tried it in my game, I'd have the arrows stop when they hit the enemy and then fall to the ground, but all before the duration expired. Once time resumed, there would be arrows on the ground that hadn't been there before, with no indication that the mage had tried to shoot the enemy.

Sun Apr 11 2010 6:32 pm #
JohnA1nut
Member

I think I would prefer the Haste spell. Moving really fast would be better. Then, if you shot them with the arrow, not only would it kill them, no one else would even notice until after it happened.

(Doing Therapy)

Sun Apr 11 2010 6:54 pm #
M. J. Young
Moderator

One has to remember that D&D is a strongly magical world, and there are a lot of little differences in the physics because of the magic. My favorite example is that cold and dark are not the absence of light and heat, but their energized opposites. A spellcaster bringing darkness or cold does not take away the light or the heat, but draws negative energy from the negative material plane which is itself darkness or cold.

Looking at the eyesight problem, in Multiverser terms eyesight is a body skill, and thus it continues to function normally despite the magic time stop. The physics of light does not apply.

The difference between stopping time for an object and moving extremely fast relative to that object lies in the fact that for any object for which time is stopped no change can occur. That's why you can't cut or stab such a person: he exists in a changeless state as long as the time stop is effected. You probably also couldn't dig a hole anywhere, because the floor can't be changed. A physicist would argue that the air is being moved by your motion, but the air is not "real" in that sense--it's not solid and we pass through it without being disturbed by it, so the fact that it is now "still" (in the sense that the breezes stop) does not prevent us from passing through it.

As to the missile problem, I never had to address it, but I believe that one approach is that when the missile leaves the control of the caster (e.g., the arrow leaves the bow, the bullet leaves the sling, or the dart leaves the hand) it becomes subject to the timestop and remains stationary in the air, and when time resumes it continues on its trajectory. Yes, this makes it possible to launch several missiles at point blank range at one target and have them seem to appear from nothing when the spell ends, but that's in essence intelligent use of the spell.

John, you also have to understand that with very rare exceptions you can't cast a time stop and use a bow--magic users are extremely limited in weapons available to them, multi-classed characters cannot advance to the highest levels to obtain such powerful spells, and a character with two classes (which is different from a multi-classed character) would take a long time to get there and have better ways to kill someone that that.

--M. J. Young

Mon Apr 12 2010 12:44 am #
JTM
Member

Apparently, however, the caster can cast delayed blast fireballs and set all of them to go off when the spell ends.

Mon Apr 12 2010 8:17 pm #
JohnA1nut
Member

I realize this probably wouldn't exist in true D&D, but could you throw a stick of dynamite into the fire during TimeStop? No one would notice it was in there, and it wouldn't explode until the spell wore off. Could you do that?

(Doing Therapy)

Mon Apr 12 2010 8:24 pm #
Max
Member

I find the quoted statements below interesting coincidences even if there are in different threads. The below could probably help someone to decide what would happen to projectile weapons in such circumstances.

He can move and affect objects in his possession

one approach is that when the missile leaves the control of the caster (e.g., the arrow leaves the bow, the bullet leaves the sling, or the dart leaves the hand) it becomes subject to the time stop and remains stationary in the air, and when time resumes it continues on its trajectory.

he's going to have equipment sense tracers to all those bullets and casings wherever they are

Does that amount to disowning the bullets as she fires them?

*****

Another interesting feature of actually stopping time with magic is what would happen if there is someone who have activated anti-magic field or something.
Would that person see the things outside the anti-magic field stopping or would the person see the things outside the anti-magic field normally move but the person who have cast time stop could not enter the field?

Mon Apr 12 2010 9:39 pm #

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