Scott, you have spoken of the Discordian religion several times. I would like to hear more about it, if that's OK with you. I'm assuming that it is not a Bible-based religion, from what you have said about it, and I was wondering exactly what it was based on. If there are no objections, I'd be fine talking about it here on the forum, or we can take it to email if you would prefer. My email is A1nut@insight.rr.com, I'd like to hear from you.
For Scott
(26 posts) (5 voices)-
Insofar as there is a book for Discordianism, it is the Principia Discordia (available for free online here); however, it's not "based on" the book in way that many Christian religions are based on the Bible. For one thing, we know who wrote the Principia (Malaclypse the Younger and Omar Khayyam Ravenhurst), and we're reasonably certain they didn't do it as the result of direct divine inspiration or dictation (as I've heard some Christians say about the Bible). There's also the Apocrypha Discordia, plus tons and tons of other fragments of Discordian writing littering the internet. As with anything on the internet, though, some of it is good, but most of it is very, very bad. A lot of the good stuff is here - Hyperdiscordia, the site that gave me my first exposure to whole thing. Does anyone here remember hypertext? These folks do. It's perfectly suited to the religion.
I realize I've just given you links to further reading instead of actually answering your question. Well, anyone else who's interested now has those links too, I guess. If you want to learn about Discordianism the same way that I did, start by doing a Google or Yahoo! search for "Emperor Joshua Norton I", then spend a few hours or days surfing Hyperdiscordia before you finally give in and read the Principia (taking time to look at the pictures and read all the notes scribbled in the margins). If you want a shortcut, a sort of Cliff's Notes for the layman, there's an excellent ten-page paper written by one of my brother's former classmates that does a good job of framing the whole thing in a way that non-Discordians can understand; both my brother and I were interviewed for it, and I can email it to you if you like (or to anyone else who asks).
Apologies for not trying to explain any concepts or theology upfront, but it's a rather daunting task - explaining a religion to someone. If I knew nothing about Christianity - nothing - and I asked you about it, where would you start?
Tue Nov 6 2007 6:54 am # -
Just as an incidental, Scott, we do know who wrote most of the Bible, in terms of human authorship. Some of that authorship was challenged in the late nineteenth century, but most of those challenges have been resolved to the satisfaction of most serious scholars.
--M. J. Young
Tue Nov 6 2007 10:50 pm # -
Tadeusz
MemberNot that hard Scott. Christianity is a logical religion.
Discordianism (he says from the fount of his ignorance) seems to be about pretending to be a joke in order to teach people not to take themselves or their ideas too seriously. It seems to be in the nature of a koan....what is the sound of one hand clapping, and such.
Tue Nov 6 2007 10:59 pm # -
Tadeusz
MemberLast convention I was at, I got slapped (verbally) for being too much in thrall to Aristotellian logic. Eventually, I figured out what the guy meant--I was too logical.
Hmmmmm.
I say if you can't explain your project logically to a fair-minded audience there is good reason to be suspicious of said project.
Before I went, I was happily enthused with Quantum Mechanics. Now, I see that its not logical....makes me think that the scientists don't really have a clue what they're doing, and they're trying to disguise it by tossing logic out the window.
Which is a big mistake.
It also heightens my support for my theses that without Christianity there would be no Science.
Eric
Tue Nov 6 2007 11:04 pm # -
JohnA1nut
MemberScott Wrote:
"Apologies for not trying to explain any concepts or theology upfront, but it's a rather daunting task - explaining a religion to someone. If I knew nothing about Christianity - nothing - and I asked you about it, where would you start?"I know exactly what you mean, as I have had to explain Christianity to someone that knew nothing and I mean nothing about it. It took me over a year and a half, but I did convert the lady I was explaining it to. I had some very unique experiences with it, as well. So yes, I know what a daunting task it is.
Tue Nov 6 2007 11:16 pm # -
Don't worry, John, I have absolutely no expectation of converting you. (Although, according to some, you're Discordian already.)
Discordianism (he says from the fount of his ignorance) seems to be about pretending to be a joke in order to teach people not to take themselves or their ideas too seriously. It seems to be in the nature of a koan....what is the sound of one hand clapping, and such.
This is true in some sense. After all, it has been said that Discordianism is a religion disguised as a joke disguised as a religion. You can see though one layer of disguise, which is an excellent start.
Wed Nov 7 2007 2:31 am # -
Graham
MemberDiscordianism is one step above the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and pastafarianism* but is not a "hard-core" religion. However, to explain in one (comprehendable) post would be phenomenal; like explaining chaos itself almost (but not quite). I personally am fascinated just by the perfect number: Five. Five is the most powerful number, because of this so is twenty-three (2+3=5). I find many examples of the number in my daily life, sometimes without looking.
*probably not spelled right, although the followers are called pastafarians. Pastafanism? I don't know. If you search google for Flying Spaghetti Monster or just FSM then you should get the website. It's quite... interesting.
Wed Nov 7 2007 3:13 am # -
Graham refers to the Law of Fives, and perhaps unintentionally references Ravenhurst's corollary.
Eris (or Discordia) is the Goddess of confusion and disorder, She What Done It All, "a universal, all-pervading, eternal sense of humor," and the divine entity behind the revelation to Omar and Mal-2 in that bowling alley back in '59. This Pope also maintains that she is one Maritza Campos, creator of popular webcomic CRFH!!!, and most everyone agrees that Emperor Joshua Norton I was her only begotten son.
Wed Nov 7 2007 3:29 am # -
I found Discordianism by investigating Norton (he appeared in a Sandman story, by Neil Gaiman) and discovering that he was a Discordian Saint Second Class. (This is the lowest of five levels, the upper four being reserved for saints who do not actually exist.)
Wed Nov 7 2007 3:44 am # -
John, it is primarily an existentialist religion, in the nature of Camus: it does not matter what you believe, only that you use it, in a very pragmatic sense, to give meaning to the meaninglessness of life.
As such, Christian concerns for truth do not impact it. Discordians are not really interested in whether what they believe is true, only in whether it provides meaning for their lives in a helpful way. It is part of the faith that truth is probably unknowable anyway, so there's no point arguing about it. The Christian response that truth has been revealed faces the question, how do you know? The answer to that question, God made it known, faces the same question, and so back to your own existence.
I would probably at that point cite Descartes and build forward, but not everyone will accept Descartes' single fact, and fewer will follow him through the ontological argument through the existence of God to the existence of reality and meaning--otherwise, Camus would never have written Myth of Sisyphus, and Discordianism probably wouldn't exist.
At least, that's my sense of the thing. Scott might find that offensive; I'm sure he knows I mean no offense.
--M. J. Young
Thu Nov 8 2007 7:09 pm # -
I find it difficult to imagine being offended by anyone's opinion of Discordianism, much less those who are mostly accurate (MJ) or ask very good questions (John).
I might disagree about life being meaningless in the first place, but at some point I would probably reference something Discordian and thereby provide evidence for your original assertion, so I don't think I will. You're close enough for a layman. (I love saying that. It's like my status as adherent gives me immunity from having to explain myself.)
I hadn't heard of Camus or a written work by him called Myth of Sisyphus (though I dropped by Wikipedia just now to correct that), but I have heard of Sisyphus. As soon as I figure out a workaround for posting an image here, I'll say more on him.
Fri Nov 9 2007 12:16 am # -
Graham
MemberYou'll probably learn more from Wikipedia than I could tell you, but I love what little Camus (pronounced Kay-muu) we read in my English 10 class. The Myth of Sisyphus is an amazing piece, focusing on how Sisyphus is the perfect absurd hero, but not because of the reasons we might assume.
I cannot do Camus and the Myth of Sisyphus justice, therefore I implore anyone with access to Camus's The Stranger and the Myth to pick them up and read them, they are quite good.
Fri Nov 9 2007 1:04 am # -
The afterlife isn't a concern for me, nor for many Discordians. There is a myth somewhere; lemme see if I can dig it up.
I don't think that answers your question about the point of Discordianism, but at least it answers the question about the afterlife.
Fri Nov 9 2007 4:33 am # -
Well, yes. But if you ask the question, "What's the point of Discordianism," the answer should have nothing to do with the afterlife. I can tell you about Discordian thoughts on that subject, but I was trying to stress the idea that Discordianism is much less concerned about death and/or what might come after than many of your popular religions.
Fri Nov 9 2007 5:12 am # -
JohnA1nut
MemberI still have not read those pages yet. I'll let you know when I do. When I ask "What's the point of a religion" I mean what do you get out of it? What's the purpose of doing it? What do you gain by believing in that? When people ask me what the point is of Christianity, I answer "Just trust in Him, and a trumpet will sound, and all God's children will be Heav-Heav-Heavenbound" (Quoting a DC Talk song, called Heavenbound)
Fri Nov 9 2007 5:35 am # -
I want to say it doesn't matter what I gain; it matters what I believe. If I can just believe what I like because it benefits me without reference to reality, where's the meaning in that belief?
Then I remember that my religion was founded in a bowling alley in 1959 by two men who were more than likely under the influence of something much more potent than marijuana (said religion including a book with five fundamental commandments, the fifth being "a Discordian is forbidden from believing what he reads") and that I can't make that argument anymore. It's too bad, too; I like that argument.
Still, it's not a calculated decision. I didn't go to a supermarket and walk up and down the religion aisle, comparing price per ounce and extrapolating probable flavor by examining the color and texture of various theologies. When I encountered Discordianism, in the dead of night in my father's study in early January almost five years ago, I was struck with an overpowering sensation of truth. It resonated with me. If I had to paraphrase my mental state with words, I would write, "Yes! That is exactly it - someone has already written it, and I've found it." Every page I read contained revelation; every paragraph was confirmation and reaffirmation of things I knew to be true, by their own sheer and simple self-evidence. I had found a way to behave and to move on, a way to think about the world and to spread liberty to my friends and my family and strangers. I was able to discard my dreary and humorless agnosticism and the empty dissatisfaction that came with it and embrace a happy world of mythical saints, ubiquitous Popes, and positive chaos, where all puns are divinely inspired and the proper way to deal with an overbearing and overly bureaucratic professor is to sneak wingnuts onto her desk one or two at a time over a period of several months. When things go wrong, I laugh at the absurdity of everything. When things go right, I laugh then, too.
I've always been a little strange, and I've always known that was okay. Only as a Discordian is my strangeness Official.
Fri Nov 9 2007 7:06 am # -
JohnA1nut
MemberSCOTT WROTE:
"I've always been a little strange, and I've always known that was okay. Only as a Discordian is my strangeness Official."I like that. I've always been a little strange myself. Being born mildly psychotic made me strange the minute I popped out of my mom. Sometimes I really like being strange. Sometimes I cannot stand it. As you can probably deduce from my writing on here, I'm very outspoken about things that I believe in. This has gotten me into trouble more than quite a few times. I envy the shy, quiet people who can sit back and listen and not be noticed. Then I realize that the world will not be changed by the shy quiet ones who go unnoticed. It will be the outspoken, opinionated person who changes the world. I just hope I have what it takes to do that.
From what I have been told by you, and what I have read that you've provided, Discordianism sounds like a fun religion. I often wonder if I am doing "Good Enough" in my faith in God to go to Heaven if I die. You don't seem to worry about such things. Although I despise Atheists, and attempt to convert them every chance I get, I also envy them to an extent. They don't worry about Heaven or Hell, but just live for the moment.
Fri Nov 9 2007 8:10 am # -
Briefly on Sisyphus:
- I do not recall the reasons, but Sisyphus was condemned by the gods. His sentence required him to roll a boulder up to the top of a mountain. However, whenever it reached the top of the mountain, it would roll down to the bottom, and he would start over. Since he was cursed with eternal life, he would have to keep doing this perpetually.
Thus far, we have the meaninglessness of existentialism as expounded by Jean-Paul Sartre. The entire image reflects the meaninglessness of life, that you are condemned to labor toward goals that are all undone eventually, and you cannot really make a difference. Albert Camus then diverges from this, however, as his Sisyphus rails against the gods, doing what he is condemned to do in defiance of the meaninglessness, and finding meaning in his rebellion. He has meaning because he refuses to accept meaninglessness. Thus for Camus, the answer to the meaning of life is we make meaning by refusing to accept meaninglessness.
On "good enough":
- Anyone who speaks in terms of being good enough as a Christian has failed to grasp the essence of Christianity. It's a bit like asking whether Prince William still deserves to be a prince, or whether his conduct has caused him to cease to be a member of the royal family. It doesn't matter what he does, he's still a member of the family. Birth, adoption, and marriage are the ways into a family, and the three metaphors used in the New Testament for becoming a Christian.
Sure, we expect royals to act like royals, and we expect children of God to act like children of God, but we also understand that failure to act the part is not relevant to being the person.
Hope that helps.
--M. J. Young
Sat Nov 10 2007 3:05 am #
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