Gaming Outpost Discussions

1. 

   Glantri
   Member

   As the title says I got bored. I decided to do a little excel project to calculate the average damage on a ranged attack for each damage category.

   It has 5 tabs, one for each damage category and a column on the right to enter SAL, BRa, World bias level, Personal bias level, hand/eye, intuition, targets density, agility, intuition, will power, resistance, and stamina.

   With that information it calculates the % chance to hit, the avg damage on an attack (it ignores damage category bumps, you have to click the right tab), your RSV and the opponents TV and DV. I made it so that when making an NPC I can figure out how deadly I want to make it.

   I posted it here:
   https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ap6ZkjMZe6UCdDFYQV9yN0hnY3c0ZkNPTHZHVkIzaHc&hl=en&authkey=CL-PyqUP

   Just download it to an excel sheet and let me know what you think.

   I like working with excel, if anyone wants me to do something similar on something else I'm willing to give it a go. I think I'm going to try and create a martial arts one now.

   Sun Oct 31 2010 4:16 pm #
2. 

   JohnA1nut
   Member

   Are you supposed to be able to change the numbers? I can't seem to figure out how to do that. Is this supposed to be used so that you could enter in the stats and dice rolls and it would do all of the math for you?

   Sun Oct 31 2010 4:23 pm #
3. 

   Glantri
   Member

   Did you download it first? download it from google to an excel sheet and open it, then you can change the numbers.

   It's designed that it'll calculate the % hit for you, and you can look down on the chart it makes to find what that % does in damage. The primary purpose is that it gives you a rough estimate of how long the verser can stand against someone dishing out a certain amount of hurt.

   Sun Oct 31 2010 4:24 pm #
4. 

   M. J. Young
   Moderator

   I haven't looked at it (too much to do tonight to download and examine a spreadsheet), but I thought I'd mention a few points.

   In ranged combat, range matters--you've got +20 on the chance of success if you are at the weapon's "point blank" range. "Point blank" range does not exist for weapons that have a martial function (hand ax, spear) because there would be an inconsistency in the concept that you get +20 if you let go of the weapon as opposed to holding on to it. There is also -10 at medium range and -25 at long range.

   Beyond long range you have extreme range, where you have:

   • -25 as for long range;
   • -1 per 1% of the maximum long range beyond long range, e.g., if long range is 75'-100' at 101' it's -1, at 150' it's -50; if long range is 150'-200' then from it's -1 to 202', -2 to 204', and so forth;
   • a damage category penalty for exceeding normal maximum range.

   That doesn't make your spreadsheet useless, but it does raise questions about its effectiveness in determining how long the verser can last.

   There are also adjustments for size, cover, and movement, but I'll leave those out unless you want me to go into them.

   As a footnote, I'm pleased and impressed. I did something very like that with Advanced Dungeons & Dragons (my ADR's and Survs), but found the complexity of Multiverser numbers prevented much in the way of a useful baseline--that is, it was easy to talk in AD&D about hitting AC5; it was a lot tougher to talk about average damage in a system as complex as ours.

   --M. J. Young

   Mon Nov 1 2010 2:22 am #
5. 

   WilliamTWodium
   Member

   All in all, quite nice.

   Mathematical flaw: from my admittedly cursory inspection, it appears that your creation rounds the damage roll to the nearest intensity, whereas in Multiverser the roll is rounded up - that is, to the higher intensity. Thus, for damage categories below Fatal, your tool will lowball the average damage: an attacker with a Dangerous weapon and a final to-hit chance of 15% averages 20 intensities over 100 attacks, not 15 (ignoring botches, which we might as well).

   Also, it might be relatively simple (don't know, as I don't do much work with Excel) to add a field for Non-TV Defensive Values, which would simply be subtracted from the final to-hit chance. That would allow the referee to quickly account for things like cover (including armor) or martial arts style, and he wanted to play with permutations of those factors he would only need manipulate a single field.

   Mon Nov 1 2010 11:08 am #
6. 

   JTM
   Member

   I tried fixing it with the ceil function, but I can't figure out what each cell stands for. Could you add some labeling?

   Mon Nov 1 2010 12:38 pm #
7. 

   JohnA1nut
   Member

   Do you know how many people got rich by inventing something when they were bored? Well, neither do I, but I bet it was a lot. Good luck

   (Doing Therapy)

   Mon Nov 1 2010 6:16 pm #
8. 

   kyler
   Member

   Do you know how many people didn't get rich by inventing something when they were bored?

   =P

   Mon Nov 1 2010 6:27 pm #
9. 

   M. J. Young
   Moderator

   Just another note that Scott brought to mind about the way things work in Multiverser: 2@ and 3@ damage values are more difficult to kill than simply calculating the number of points no matter how you calculate them.

   That is, up through 1@10 the decimalized damage value is the number of intensities (points) of damage it takes to bring the character to the threshold of death. However, at 2@1 you divide the damage done by the level and discard fractions.

   So the division means that a 2@1 is more like a 42; but because of the fractions rule, if you do one intensity of damage you did none, and if you do two or three you did one.

   And when you get to 3@1, that means that it's like a 63, except that you have to do at least 3 intensities on a single hit to have any impact at all (one intensity).

   It reduces the ability for worthless mooks to nickel-and-dime heroes and monsters to death.

   I don't know whether you can account for that in your system; it's one of the other problems that I think kept me from tackling the project in earnest.

   --M. J. Young

   Mon Nov 1 2010 8:11 pm #
10. 

    M. J. Young
    Moderator

    And forgive the seeming nit-picking. It's really very impressive work, even if I find fault with it.

    --M. J. Young

    Mon Nov 1 2010 8:11 pm #
11. 

    Nikolaj
    Member

    Do you know how many people didn't get rich by inventing something when they were bored?

    =P

    Now, Kyler, that's pessimistic! ;) Good encouragement John, nice to see it between the nit-picking. Like Mark says, impressive work Glantri. (Mike, it was, right?)

    Mon Nov 1 2010 9:03 pm #
12. 

    Glantri
    Member

    MJ:
    I had actually had that in mind when I was doing the spreadsheet. I know how to handle it but it's a little equation intensive so I didn't bother with my first draft. I also didn't know the exact way it worked, and didn't want to put work in to doing something incorrectly. Excel has a round down function, which discards fractions like you're mentioning, so it'll be nice and easy.

    I've already added titles to my spreadsheet as per JTM's suggestion and fixed it so that the system always rounds up. I also put in a catch all positive and negative SM area, to account for a wide variety of things that were brought up like range/size/etc. I'll be posting the new and improved one after I tackle the different damage values.

    Also nit-picking is welcomed, I want to make this as precise as possible. Also thank you for the compliments on it, and yeah my name is Mike. :)

    Mon Nov 1 2010 9:06 pm #
13. 

    Glantri
    Member

    I'm in the process of compensating for the damage value and realized I was unsure on one of the principles. MJ explained you divide by 2 for 2@ and 3 for 3@ DV, but is a 2@ density or a 3@ density important? I know it contributes to the DV but I remember for some reason thinking that a 2@ density provided a defensive bonus.

    Tue Nov 2 2010 1:02 am #
14. 

    Glantri
    Member

    I finished the version with positive and negative SM, DV calculation and labels.

    My next step is probably going to be to polish it up slightly, make some of the raw calculation numbers hidden so that the user only has to see all the data they entered and are free to change, percent chance to hit at the top left and below that would be:

    Low number of range | High number of range | Damage done if between numbers

    and then an avg damage report at the bottom of the sheet.

    Comments, corrections, things you wish it did that it doesn't yet?

    Edit: Forgot to post the link for people to check it out

    https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B56ZkjMZe6UCNzBjNGIyNmEtODE0YS00YWI0LWEwMTktNjIyZGQ3M2UxMzM2&hl=en&authkey=CN-8tuQN

    Tue Nov 2 2010 1:23 am #
15. 

    kyler
    Member

    Density is the least likely of the four attributes associated with damage value to rise and arguably the most difficult to bring up naturally (how do you create a doubled doubled regimen to increase your density?); thus by the time you get a 2@ density, if you don't already have one you will almost certainly get the 2@ damage value.

    Tue Nov 2 2010 3:15 pm #
16. 

    JohnA1nut
    Member

    (how do you create a doubled doubled regimen to increase your density?);

    Isn't there a psionic Transmute Metals? Use that to change your bones into adamantium.....

    Tue Nov 2 2010 3:36 pm #
17. 

    kyler
    Member

    1. The question wasn't "how do you increase your density without using a training program."

    2. I'm not entirely sure how good that would be... the detriments could be quite terrible, painful to say the least.

    Tue Nov 2 2010 3:51 pm #
18. 

    Glantri
    Member

    I made a bunch of changes that I thought were worthwhile, so I've got a new edition (I've been sick, and I tend to do small tasks while sick to make myself feel better. This was one of them.)

    Link: https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B56ZkjMZe6UCOWMxMDdiZmItZjFkNi00NjliLTkzNzMtYTU1YmJmZmE1NjY5&hl=en&authkey=CNG8kIEI

    Changes:
    *Added capability to handling damage roll modifiers, such as +10 to effective damage roll. I didn't know the realistic range of what these vary between so I set it up to go up to 100. I think it also handles the negative side of it but I haven't double checked yet.
    *Added a location to enter the roll, and an output giving the damage done based on that roll, your attributes, your enemies attributes, sit mods and damage mods.
    *Addition of an extra page "Overview" to make comparison easier.
    -Overview allows for input of attributes on one sheet that is then transferred to the rest
    -Location to enter roll that will set all pages to having the correct die roll
    -Display of % chance to hit
    -Table of Avg Damage and Damage on die roll for each damage category.
    -Damage on roll will give the damage if the roll is successful, a 0 output if failed attack but not a botch, and a -100 if it's a botch.

    I'm pretty happy with how it turned out. I'm not sure if I should make a second workbook for martial strikes, just add pages to this workbook, or just add it to the overview page.

    Tue Nov 2 2010 7:44 pm #
19. 

    M. J. Young
    Moderator

    MJ explained you divide by 2 for 2@ and 3 for 3@ DV, but is a 2@ density or a 3@ density important? I know it contributes to the DV but I remember for some reason thinking that a 2@ density provided a defensive bonus.

    Kyler is correct. Density is one third of target value and one quarter of damage value of a living target, and since it almost always starts low and is extremely difficult to raise, a 2@ density in a living character or creature is going to mean formidable defensive combat numbers.

    Density also is the damage value of 36 cubic inches of any inanimate object attacked, such as a wall. That's for different applications.

    --M. J. Young

    Wed Nov 3 2010 12:30 am #
20. 

    Glantri
    Member

    So I did another small project, primarily because it's helping me keep numbers straight for the game I'm running Kyler in, and it gives me a number to check against when I crunch numbers.

    https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B56ZkjMZe6UCYmZjNjg3N2UtYmI0Zi00YTFkLWE0YWEtMTA1NTZiZGFiYWU5&hl=en&authkey=CM_ZyP4E

    It's a Character sheet in excel with 5 pages.
    Attributes
    Tech
    Psi
    Mag
    Bod

    Attributes and world bias are input on the first page, from which RSV, MSV, TV, DV and all the BRA's are calculated.

    Then each of the four other tabs allow input of of SAL | Skill Name | SitMod | Bias and since excel has a nice sort function you can sort a long list to be in order.

    So long as the list is in order, which is easy in excel as I mentioned just above, the sheet will calculate your Bias and input it on the first page. Then using the world bias input and the bias you entered the skill at the left hand side will return either a 1 or 0, a 1 to indicate the skill is usable in that world and a 0 to indicate it is not usable.

    On the right hand side excel calculates the % chance of success for the skill.

    It's not very pretty or polished as it's primarily so I'm less likely to make math errors while running a game, and so I'm more confident with the numbers I come up with, but I figured as long as I'd made it I might as well share it.

    Wed Nov 10 2010 5:24 pm #
21. 

    M. J. Young
    Moderator

    Kewl.

    You might consider (given its purpose of getting the math right) adding a few entries. I do these longhand on NPC sheets I'm going to be using for a lot of situations, but you can do it quickly with the sheet, I expect.

    • Add a space for the world area bias in each of the bias areas.
    • I'm assuming you can separate level from intensity; if so, create a column that combines the SAL, BRA, and 2xBias Level, based on which is the lower of the two bias entries for that bias area, for base chance of success. (You've got Sit-mod, so include that, too.)
    • Add two more columns for any skill which can be used as a ranged and/or martial attack, to include the appropriate strike values. I would make it two columns, because some skills can be ranged or martial (e.g., daggers, spears).

    That gives you more finished calculations.

    --M. J. Young

    Thu Nov 11 2010 8:20 am #
22. 

    Glantri
    Member

    I actually have a space for the world area bias's included already and columns which convert the level and intensity to a decimal number for calculation. They're just used for calculations, so I have them hidden as they confuse the overall view.

    If you look at the top lettering system you'll note that some letters are skipped, these are the hidden columns with calculations in them.

    As to including the strike value while that's not difficult, I'd also have to include the TV for it to be of any value, which I fear would start making it look cluttered. I'm going to investigate how to combine the previous workbooks I made with this one, before I start adding a random TV entry.

    Thu Nov 11 2010 4:09 pm #
23. 

    M. J. Young
    Moderator

    As to including the strike value while that's not difficult, I'd also have to include the TV for it to be of any value, which I fear would start making it look cluttered.

    Bzzt. Wrong answer.

    It was a steep learning curve, perhaps, but now when I create indigs I usually include, in separate entries,

    • The SAL;
    • The chance of success including bias in their native world;
    • The sum of all standard combat bonuses for the use of any attack.

    That gives me a number from which I need subtract the defender's defensive numbers to get the chance to hit. That is, for a standard martial weapon, I've got:

    BRA
    SAL
    2xBias Level
    MSV

    from which I will subtract TV and sometimes Cover Value, in the simplest combats. Sure, there might also be range modifiers if it's ranged combat (which would be RSV), other offensive or defensive mods--but ultimately, I've saved myself quite a bit of math if I can look at the sheet and say, "Everything this guy has in his favor equals 104, so now let's subtract what the player character puts against that."

    Anyway, that's how I handle combatant NPCs most of the time anymore. Quicker that way.

    --M. J. Young

    Fri Nov 12 2010 3:54 am #

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