Four
Magic bias flatlined? Certainly God would help His creation against that ungodly, soulless, mechanical creation of man, don't you think? Or not.
John 2 John
(497 posts) (4 voices)-
I don't know that you or your character know anything about the mag bias in this world as yet.
You continue practicing those few psi skills of which you are already confident, and trying to get as much bodily exercise as you can manage along the way, as well as working on trying to improve your diction so you will be able to speak the sooner.
--M. J. Young
Wed May 19 2010 3:19 am # -
JohnA1nut
MemberThe answer to most of your questions is "How would you know?"
I asked where we moved to. I think I would know that, unless I've been blindfolded the whole time. (That's supposed to be funny, BTW) You probably just missed it in the jumble.
Ya know, you're right, I don't know what the magic bias is. I've got prayers for calling an off-world informant, and another for an on-world warrior. I wonder what it would be for a soldier from the future? Is that on-world, or off world, informant or warrior, or something else entirely? Should we discuss that? Perhaps it would be better to use one of those, as opposed to making another up.
Pray for a soldier from the future. Derek Reese (Should be easy enough for you to remember, considering who was in my last world) Desired results: Derek Reese arrives, hopefully far enough away that his arrival will not be known to Sarah, but close enough for him to find us. The arrival would freak her out, she would run, and it's Kyle's brother. Kyle was 21, in the book, Derek was younger, in the TV show, he was 7 years older than Kyle. I'd prefer the older version.
"God, if you're there, bring me Derek Reese. We need a soldier from the future. Surely Kyle's only brother would be eager to check up on him. Can you send to us Derek Reese?"
Time would be silently praying to myself from the moment I wake up, to the moment I fall asleep, then stopping. If I can stay awake for hours, then that's how long I'm praying. Since I can't guarantee that I could stay in one spot with my head bowed or anything, might as well get the most out of the time bonus.
If this could be a new use on an existing prayer, I'd prefer that, as opposed to making another up.
A botch could be that a Terminator comes as well as Derek. That could be interesting. My fledgling psionics against that metal monster....
Oh and nothing dead will come through a time portal, but there are ways to bring objects back. Swallowing, insertion into a body cavity (I hope I don't need to explain further) cutting open a living being (dog, etc) and inserting the object in that, cauterizing the wound, and sending the animal alive. Kill it on the other side and remove the object. Other ways have been theorized, if you need more than that. (Since it's possible time travel might come up in a post or two, I thought I'd mention this)
So what do you say? Can Derek Reese come too?
Man, what would the stats be on him? He'd have some 3@ gun skills for sure. He was born into it, it's all he's ever known. Explosives and demolitions, computer hacking (and to him, everything here is 40 years old) Chemistry (Homemade explosives anyway) Mad driving skills, all kinds of stuff. He probably knows how to use those laser pistols too. Yeah, bring me Derek Reese.
(Doing Therapy)
Wed May 19 2010 5:23 am # -
JohnA1nut
MemberTwo
That invisibility cloak has a "Penetrate disguise" as one of its features. Would that mean that, if I was wearing it, I could see a Terminator for what it really was? That's probably a "How would you know?" Too bad I can't bring back a reprogrammed Terminator instead of a future soldier. Sarah would never trust it.
Just an aside, I have a feeling magic is flatlined and this won't work anyway, but on the off chance that it does, Derek Reese was played by Brian Austin Green in the TV show, so that's what he looks like.
Wed May 19 2010 5:03 pm # -
JohnA1nut
MemberThree
Just an anecdote, about the attitude of a future soldier. From the TV show the Sarah Connor Chronicles. Derek Reese and another future soldier are doing target practice shooting at apples. (This is set in the 1990s, John is a teenager in high school.)
Derek Reese "It's nice to be able to waste bullets shooting at apples."
Other soldier "No, it's nice to be able to waste apples."For some reason, I thought that might give you some insight on how to play Derek.
(Doing Therapy)
Wed May 19 2010 8:24 pm # -
Is it your intention to include in the summoning a magical means of transporting this person from the future, or are you relying on him to provide his own time travel?
You know that I will not accept "I pray for an unspecified period of time." My answer in this case is simple: you will make a simple stamina check every minute you continue praying until you fail one, at which point you will stop praying. If you don't like that answer, don't give me open-ended times, because I really, really, really, really, REALLY hate them.
So, how long are you planning to pray, given that you are about six months old and can barely do anything at all?
Apart from thinking the words, do you intend to do anything?
--M. J. Young
Wed May 19 2010 11:21 pm # -
JohnA1nut
MemberIs it your intention to include in the summoning a magical means of transporting this person from the future, or are you relying on him to provide his own time travel?
I wouldn't want to force him to come. How about this.
"God, would you please compel the future Derek Reese to voluntarily come to us via a future time portal? Arriving far enough away so as not to frighten Sarah, but close enough so that he can find us quickly. We need all of the protecting and help we can get."
That might be a willpower check for Derek to resist coming, might it? Why would he resist getting away from the war, and protecting John and Sarah? He might even know that I'm his nephew. In the book, John Connor revealed that Kyle was his father right after Kyle was sent. Kyle wouldn't have known, but Derek might.
You know that I will not accept "I pray for an unspecified period of time." My answer in this case is simple: you will make a simple stamina check every minute you continue praying until you fail one, at which point you will stop praying. If you don't like that answer, don't give me open-ended times, because I really, really, really, really, REALLY hate them.
I understand that, but it's NOT open-ended. Out of character, I have no idea how long the infant me can stay awake. He knows, you know, I don't!!! He would be praying from the moment he wakes up until he falls asleep. You know how long he can stay awake without a check. I can't answer the question in this case. The stamina check I think is a misunderstanding of the task I'm proposing. It's not an open-ended time frame, it's for however long he is awake, which is a question I can't answer. So, how long can I stay awake? That's how long I'm praying. You're the only one who knows the answer. If you're still going with the stamina check every minute, then stop and let's talk about it some more. You're asking me a question that you already know the answer to, and I don't know the answer.
You could not persuade me that thinking a prayer in his mind would tire him out faster than just living a normal baby life. How long is he awake in his normal baby life? That's how long he's praying. You've told me that I could stay awake for hours. How many? Hours is more than one, so anywhere from 2 hours on up. Is it 4 hours he can stay awake? Is it 6? Can he stay awake for 12 hours under normal circumstances? I don't know the answer to that question.
Even I were to answer you, how long I say might be short of how long he can stay awake, or it might be way over. I have no idea. I'll accept that he started shortly after awakening, and stopped when he fell asleep. I don't know how long that would be. What does the scenario say for how long a 5 month old infant can stay awake?
So, how long are you planning to pray, given that you are about six months old and can barely do anything at all?
How long can I stay awake at a single stretch? You're the only one who can answer that.
Apart from thinking the words, do you intend to do anything?
Would remaining verbally silent and refusing to eat count for any kind of bonuses? I've been told that fasting is a religious thing. I could get away with that for 5 hours. If I didn't cry, mommy probably wouldn't feed me. Or do it whilst she's sleeping. I'll wake up at some time in the night to be fed, just don't cry. Remain verbally silent (no baby babble) and fast for the 4 or 5 hours. Does that add anything? And yes, I'd say 5 hours is fasting for an infant. Mom deserves a good night's sleep after everything I've put her through lately. I just won't cry when I wake up for my nighttime mommy is asleep feeding. Just hope I don't need changing..... Would all of that count for bonuses? Not eating, not getting a diaper changed, not speaking. Allowing mommy to sleep for a change. For an infant, that would be a huge sacrifice to bring someone here to protect him and his mother. Would that be a bonus?
If I pull this off, Uncle Derek is going to be in his late 30s/early 40s when the T-1000 comes back. Maybe he knows an easier way to kill it than melting it in a steel mill.....
And what I was saying about bringing back objects? He could swallow or "insert" a bag of diamonds or something. In the future, they're worthless. He could bring back millions of dollars in highest-grade diamonds and no one there would even argue with him about it.
Who better to train us how to battle these things? Beside, he would realize that my anomalous shields and whatnot are not SkyNet's doing. Maybe between us, we could persuade mommy that I am not normal. Would Derek know in the future that I am capable of doing that? I will certainly use that shield at least once in the future war. (I know you probably won't answer yet, I'm just thinking out loud)
(Doing Therapy)
Wed May 19 2010 11:38 pm # -
JohnA1nut
MemberTwo
If, for some reason, you still can't go with what I said, then four hours. Certainly he can stay awake longer than that. In fact, I just called my grandmother (She raised 6 five month old babies) She said that four or five hours is about right. So, four hours if not longer.
I'm just curious. Am I the first player to ever give you open-ended time frame prayers? The system doesn't seem to handle those very well.
(Doing Therapy)
Thu May 20 2010 12:10 am # -
God, would you please compel the future Derek Reese to voluntarily come to us via a future time portal?
I would ask how that does not "force him to come" but I don't want to get into that argument. It does appear, though, that you want this summoning to be compulsory, yes?
Why would he resist getting away from the war, and protecting John and Sarah?
That's not entirely the sense of the will power check. It's really a matter of whether he is going to do what you want him to do or what he would have done absent your intervention. Your argument can suggest that the will power check be made harder for him, based on the idea that he is less likely to resist the suggestion, but the point isn't that he is fighting against it but that we need some way to determine whether your suggestion overrides his will whatever it is.
As to whether he would want to leave the war to come help you, he knows that you got through this without his help in the original timeline and he does not know whether his friends will survive without his help in his future, so he might feel as if going back to give you help you don't actually need (from his perspective) is avoiding the real need of his time.
I will accept a four hour prayer, but you'll need to make a will power check to do that, given that you will be hungry and in need of a change, and you will also need to focus your attention for that time without the aid of any external movement. But I'll give you +10 for that.
Anyone who has ever told me they were praying for something has been asked how long they were intending to pray.
Might Sarah accidentally trigger that thing?
Perhaps unfortunately, no.
In its own world it worked by the rules of its own world, the "always works" rule for the magic items in that world. Once it leaves its own world, it works under Multiverser rules, which means that the person trying to use it must make a skill check to have it work, and therefore must expect the magic to happen in response to the stated actions. Sarah does not have the skill and does not have the necessary expectation to learn the skill.
You could teach her, once you are able to do so.
Was the cloak with you at the time you versed out?
You attempt to pray as you indicated, but you can't maintain focus on this for four hours and before you've finished you involuntarily start crying from the combination of hunger and a very sore and raw buttocks.
--M. J. Young
Thu May 20 2010 10:30 pm # -
JohnA1nut
MemberI would ask how that does not "force him to come" but I don't want to get into that argument. It does appear, though, that you want this summoning to be compulsory, yes?
By that, you're implying that God forces people to do ANYTHING. I've had God tell me to do things. It was still my choice to do them. What I would want is for God to tell Derek "Hey, I want for you to go back in time and help your family." It would still be Derek's choice to do so. (Hence, the willpower check) I don't think the willpower check would need to be made, because I see no reason for him to resist that. He would want to get away from the war and help Sarah. At least I think so.
As to whether he would want to leave the war to come help you, he knows that you got through this without his help in the original timeline and he does not know whether his friends will survive without his help in his future, so he might feel as if going back to give you help you don't actually need (from his perspective) is avoiding the real need of his time.
Since they didn't have control over a time machine until the war was won (as stated by Kyle in the first movie) he would have no reason to stay there to help them. Now the humans of the future just need to clean up the mess that was made.
Was the cloak with you at the time you versed out?
Yeah, it was in the VSP.
You attempt to pray as you indicated, but you can't maintain focus on this for four hours and before you've finished you involuntarily start crying from the combination of hunger and a very sore and raw buttocks.
Try again tomorrow night.
Thu May 20 2010 11:15 pm # -
Again the next night you are unable to keep yourself from crying from the hunger and the soreness. Sarah scolds you for not letting her know sooner that you were dirty, because you've developed a serious diaper rash. The ointment helps, but it still stings, and is rather distracting particularly when you shift positions.
--M. J. Young
Fri May 21 2010 10:49 pm # -
JohnA1nut
MemberOK, is the being hungry and having a dirty diaper a required part of this prayer? If I drop that, will I have perhaps less of a bonus, but not have the willpower check? That would work too. Perhaps wake Sarah up crying, get fed, get the diaper changed, THEN stay up and pray. The problem with this prayer is that this is the only time it's ever going to work. I can't exactly be in Dancing Princess and call Derek Reese from the future, ya know?
(Doing Therapy)
Sat May 22 2010 4:00 am # -
Actually, the skill description readsThe problem with this prayer is that this is the only time it's ever going to work. I can't exactly be in Dancing Princess and call Derek Reese from the future, ya know?
1@1 Attract Off-world Sentient Fighter/Informer from Future M11@9 prayer is entirely by thought, appropriately requesting a specific individual to choose to travel from the future by his own means, thought prayer continuing for four hours, will power check required to maintain focus despite hunger of not eating or other discomforts, 4:00:00TF +33 SM
--which means you can substitute the name of any other person in that space, subject to the condition that this specific individual exists in the future of the world in question and that time travel is available to him to reach the past. It does not even specify that it must be technological time travel, and so it might work in a high-mag or high-psi world in which temporal effects are achievable.If that's not what you intended for the skill design, we can change it; but there's no difference between a skill that summons a specific individual versus a specific type of individual, so there's no advantage to adding that limitation.
I have trouble with the concept of a person in an infant's body focusing entirely on one thought for four hours, with or without starting clean and fed. You can lose the dependence on the will power check, and drop the bonus that comes from having it a necessary part of the skill, but then I will have to roll a general effects roll for whether you are actually undisturbed for four hours and can focus on the prayer for that period of time; probably a very good GE roll would mean that you succeed, a moderately good roll that you must make a simple will power check to succeed, a moderately bad one that you must make a difficult check, and a very bad one that you fail without a check. I don't know that that's better than your current situation, and I do know that if you tried to do it again as an adult I would interpret the GE roll more generously (much easier for a well-rested and fed adult alone in the wilderness to close his eyes and focus on one thought for four hours than for an infant whose mother is constantly checking on him to do so).
I can create the new skill if you want, or you can try the old one again. I think, though, that the not eating and not getting changed part was secondary; you can be fed and changed and still have to make the will power check to stay focused on task.
--M. J. Young
Sun May 23 2010 8:02 pm # -
JohnA1nut
MemberAfter reading Behind The Screens, you're right. This isn't worth playing with. Time travel is too dangerous. Pray for 4 hours for God to raise my body to the age of 18. I will have the physical body of an 18 year old man. Then, suicide out of the world. It's not worth messing with. I really hope you weren't looking forward to playing this world as much as I was, because this has now become a major disappointment. Time travel is too dangerous to mess with, and I will not be responsible for sending this world into an infinity loop. I'd rather the machines win. With my death, the time trips won't be confirmed, and the world will continue to snap, with the world led by the John Connor who was originally supposed to be here. At least I know his timeline resolved. Mine might not. In this leg, the machines have an easy victory, John Connor leads the humans to victory next. I can live with that. I will not be responsible for causing an infinity loop, especially one I will be trapped in. This can't be the start of an infinity loop, since I will never be here in another timeline. I'm setting up a sawtooth snap that started long before I got here. I can live with that.
"God, please raise my physical body to that of a man of the age of 18, so that I might leave, and spare this world the temporal disasters I am certain to cause. In your infinite wisdom, I trust that you will save mankind from its creation, the machine, without my help."
That last is not asking for God to help the humans. It's just a statement of trust in God.
Same circumstances as the other 4 hour prayer, except after a feeding and changing. I'm doing this at night, after my nighttime feeding and changing. Sarah will be asleep when I turn into an adult. I am reclaiming possession of everything I own which had been loaned to Sarah. It all verses with me. Since none of it ever belonged to Sarah, it should all come with me. Hell, I might even disown everything else. It's 10,000 miles away at least. As long as the contents of the VSP come, I'll be fine in the next world.
I'm sure this is going to need further discussion, but this is my action. And no, it's not based on out of character knowledge. This has been in the back of my mind ever since I realized where I was. You just brought it forward. The fun of the scenario blinded me to the dangers of it. I will not be responsible for an infinity loop, even to play a Terminator scenario.
Yes, I'm serious. I bet you never expected that, did you?
(Doing Therapy)
Sun May 23 2010 8:16 pm # -
JohnA1nut
MemberTwo
Just trying to break down the time travel elements of this.
AB timeline, John Connor born to Sarah and unknown father
CD timeline, Sarah Connor attacked by Terminator
EF timeline, (Which is this one, at least) Reese comes back. I versed in. Now I'm versing out. Machines win the war. There will never be another John Connor who uses magic to age 18 years in one night and get shot by Sarah, so this can't be an infinity loop setup.
GH timeline, identical to AB timeline, except I will never be in the scenario again. The original John Connor will be in every timeline which follows.Sawtooth snap, no infinity loop. SkyNet wins the war in this timeline, but in the next timeline, John Connor leads the world to victory. That's a safe place to leave it. No infinity loops. I can live with that.
You successfully talked me into it. I'm not even going to play a scenario with time travel. Not even one based on my favorite movie series of all time. You convinced me to not even play this world.
And in regards to the prayers, Garth Brooks is right. You should thank God for unanswered prayers.
I'm betting this is absolutely the LAST thing you would have expected.
(Doing Therapy)
Mon May 24 2010 12:16 am # -
JohnA1nut
MemberThree
If I can't raise my physical age to 18, I'll figure out a way to verse myself out in the infant's body. It will only be a matter of verses before I can fix that problem, as you have so clearly stated in regards to versing out injured from Pearl Harbor. Small price to pay to keep this place from looping.
So, let's see here. I'm losing all of my bod skills, (like walking and talking) possibly disowning most of my gear, and I might even lose the VSP in a contested willpower check to Sarah. Not to mention all of the training I would have gotten here, as well as the thrill of playing the world in the first place. I might land in the next world completely naked with no possessions at all, and in the body of an infant. At least there won't be an infinity loop because of my actions. Congratulations MJ. You found what will motivate me to stay completely uninvolved.
Mon May 24 2010 7:34 am # -
JohnA1nut
MemberMore than one
If the TX kills one of its targets, the world loops. If the T-1000 kills Sarah, or she dies by some other means, (Like, a psionic botch) the world loops. If I can't save Reese in the future, the world loops. If I verse out now, none of that will matter, because the Terminator/Reese trips won't be confirmed in the next timeline, and the world will Sawtooth Snap. That's the best outcome I can offer this world. John Connor will fix everything in the timeline after this, no loop, and it's completely safe for all involved. And at least if it does loop, it won't be my fault. Let the machines win. In the next timeline, that won't matter anymore.
Mon May 24 2010 10:34 am # -
JohnA1nut
MemberFive
If, and only if, I am the ONLY TARGET SkyNet is seeking will I play this world. My death won't cause an infinity loop. What else would cause one? Either we figure out a way to make infinity loops impossible to happen, or I figure out that "Age to 18" prayer, and you figure out a new world. It's as simple as that. I won't be responsible for an infinity loop.
Yeah, it's a lot of posts. However, you try sitting at home alone all day with this in your head and it won't get out!!!!!! And I actually just cut out a lot of it.
(Doing Therapy)
Tue May 25 2010 12:39 am # -
I don't have a lot of time to reply, but let me start a new thread on Terminator Timelines, and see if you decide you really hate me.
--M. J. Young
Tue May 25 2010 3:14 am # -
JohnA1nut
MemberDespite 5 posts on the subject, you still didn't say a word about the idea of versing myself out. Starting an infinity loop is not acceptable. It could be done completely beyond my control. One bad dice roll. That's all it would take. Then I'm stuck in that world forever. Unacceptable. If I verse out now, the Terminator will never be sent back, and the timeline continues. You wanted to ensure that I would take action to avoid an infinity loop. That would do it. Or did you want to ensure that I would get involved in the scenario? I think your trap backfired. If you wanted me to get involved in the scenario, just say "John, you're in Terminator". I'll get involved.
The trap was put there to make sure that I would take action to avoid an infinity loop. Versing out now avoids an infinity loop, so actually, your trap will work perfectly. Just not the way you expected. And it's a lot more certain to work than hoping I don't botch at a critical moment and accidentally getting Kyle Reese killed. If all you want is for me to take action to avoid an infinity loop, I can do that right now. Or did you want to ensure that I would get involved in the scenario? If you want to ensure that I'll get involved in the scenario, take out the trap.
As you keep pointing out, I follow the path of least resistance. Versing out now is the path of least resistance, so this actually shouldn't surprise you in the slightest.
Tue May 25 2010 4:56 am # -
JohnA1nut
MemberTwo
After sleeping on it, the idea of versing myself out doesn't sound as good as it did last night. So, I'm asking you, either guarantee me that I cannot cause an infinity loop, or guarantee me a way out of it. Perhaps, if I get that One Bad Dice Roll, The Architect shows up immediately to get me out. Before this, I was fully intending to get involved. Your efforts to ensure my involvement is what's making me not want to.
Can I pray for that? That if I get caught in an infinity loop, The Architect shows up to get me out? Kind of an insurance policy prayer? I can't call future soldiers, but I can call versers to my heart's content. That sounds like a really good idea.
Tue May 25 2010 3:17 pm # -
The "trap" wasn't put there for any particular reason. It was put there because I thought it would be fun for you to recognize the dangers of the potential temporal anomalies and find a way around them.
Can I pray for that? That if I get caught in an infinity loop, The Architect shows up to get me out? Kind of an insurance policy prayer? I can't call future soldiers, but I can call versers to my heart's content. That sounds like a really good idea.
I'm intrigued and impressed by the notion of praying for contingency help: that someone will arrive if you get caught in an infinity loop. The real cleverness of it, from one perspective, is that if you summon someone into this before it becomes an infinity loop they might get trapped in the loop with you, but if you make it contingent then you will pray it whether or not it's a loop, and it will be answered by having no one arrive if you're not trapped and someone arrive if you are.
That's assuming it works, but you've done enough summonings that there's a good chance it will.
Of course, if you summon a verser now, he's not going to recognize you and you're not going to be able to explain it to him, so you might want to wait a bit before you do this.
So, have you decided what you're doing yet?
--M. J. Young
Tue May 25 2010 10:55 pm # -
JohnA1nut
MemberSo, have you decided what you're doing yet?
First, I wanted to apologize. That was freaking me out, the idea of an infinity loop. It was in the back of my mind, I've been thinking about it "On the back burner" ever since I got here. The first world I really wanted to play, and you just scared me out of it. Thank you for not taking that "Age to 18" action seriously. I'm sure some referees would have. Oh, and just so you know, I can tell you right now this won't freak me out the way Pearl Harbor did. I think I've done all the freaking out I'm going to do.
Secondly, from my skill sheet:
1@1 Call Angelic Messenger M+11@7 20:00TF kneeling in established base camp with appropriate words, calls specific angel messenger to answer questions +57SM
Like I said, I've had this on the back burner since I got here, so I'm sure it's within the realm of possibility that he's had a similar revelation.
I'm assuming God and the angel will be able to understand me. Whilst Sarah is asleep. Wherever I am, that's the established home, as designated by Sarah, so this works anywhere. I can get into a position that resembles kneeling with hands folded, at least. I hope God won't hold that against me. Sarah shouldn't even be able to see or hear the angel, so it won't wake her up. With a plus 57 sit-mod, this is almost guaranteed to work, if I'm understanding the math correctly.
New use?
When the angel arrives:
"What happens if I die in this world? Under normal circumstances, my death would cause an infinity loop. I'm a verser though. I would verse out, right? I wouldn't be stuck in the infinity loop, would I?" (You can't tell me, but an angel CAN tell my character.) <wink>
I do stay in the infinity loop, don't I? That's why you wouldn't tell me. I'm not a verser. I AM John Connor. If I verse out, it's the same as if he died. Oh man MJ, what in the hell have you done to me???? (That's said with a laugh, BTW)
"How would I go about summoning the "Contingency Verser"? The Architect. I trust him, and I know he knows time travel. He wrote the theory I studied, in another lifetime."
"Could you speak to Sarah for me? Tell her what I can't."
Might be more questions later.
I'm intrigued and impressed by the notion of praying for contingency help
Really? To me, that seemed blatantly obvious.
Now I have to ask. Would you have ever expected that I would rather verse out than risk an infinity loop?
NOTES:
Ya know what would be interesting? Summon both Whisp and Mother into the middle of a Terminator encampment. In the course of them killing each other, they would be certain to take out some machines. If Mother wins, she verses herself out, if Whisp wins, he will try to seduce a female Terminator. Either way, I no longer have to worry about them.
Call Bob Thomas in. He wouldn't be able to tell Terminators from people. Just drop him into the middle of a T-800 encampment. He probably wouldn't last very long, but even taking out a handful of them would help us. He would probably enjoy himself.
(Doing Therapy)
Tue May 25 2010 11:07 pm # -
How old are you?
You can't raise your body under your own power; you can only stay upright once placed that way. Also, you've never been on your knees--babies don't crawl until they are nine months old, and even then it's a four-point stance (although they can stand with support of an outside object at eight months). Kneeling unsupported isn't possible until fifteen months old. I suppose you will be able to develop the skill to kneel while leaning against an object at least as tall as your shoulders while kneeling when you are eight months old; but you're not there yet.
The skill specifies kneeling, and lying either prone or supine will not work for that. (I know you want to argue the point, but the very point is that the specifications of the skill are designed so that if anything prevents you from doing it as written you can't do the skill. That's why they're called limitations.)
You can't do the summoning because you can't kneel.
You can try to design a similar skill that does not require you to kneel, and we'll work out the numbers for that.
--M. J. Young
Thu May 27 2010 6:11 am # -
JohnA1nut
Member(I know you want to argue the point, but the very point is that the specifications of the skill are designed so that if anything prevents you from doing it as written you can't do the skill. That's why they're called limitations.)
Actually I don't want to argue. I was kind of worried about that. I thought perhaps laying face down with my knees bent would qualify. I didn't realize "God" was so strict on such things.
Using that skill as a template, change the kneeling to laying prostrate, which I know I can accomplish. I really wish I could make that a new use instead of an new skill, but oh well. I really REALLY wish I could keep that +57 sit-mod, but maybe I'll get one better. Everything about that prayer is exactly the same, except that I'm laying prostrate instead of kneeling.
Dumb question. Instead of two prayers exactly the same except for one component, why not make it one prayer, the needed component "Position of humility before God"? Kneeling, laying prostrate, whatever else would qualify for that. Can I make that this prayer? Instead of kneeling or laying prostrate "Position of humility" or some such? And since I'm laying prostrate instead of kneeling, it would be a new use. It just seems to be easier to me. Can we change the existing prayer to "Position of humility" rather than "kneeling"? If not, it's fine, I'd just really like to keep that sit-mod, ya know?
1@1 Call Angelic Messenger M+11@7 20:00TF kneeling in established base camp with appropriate words, calls specific angel messenger to answer questions +57SM
That's the template I'm using. Laying prostrate instead of kneeling.
How old are you?
I'm 33. I think my character is 5 or 6 months. You probably meant my character.
My questions:
When the angel arrives:
"What happens if I die in this world? Under normal circumstances, my death would cause an infinity loop. I'm a verser though. I would verse out, right? I wouldn't be stuck in the infinity loop, would I?" (You can't tell me, but an angel CAN tell my character.) <wink>
I do stay in the infinity loop, don't I? That's why you wouldn't tell me. I'm not a verser. I AM John Connor. If I verse out, it's the same as if he died. Oh man MJ, what in the hell have you done to me???? (That's said with a laugh, BTW)
"How would I go about summoning the "Contingency Verser"? The Architect. I trust him, and I know he knows time travel. He wrote the theory I studied, in another lifetime."
"Could you speak to Sarah for me? Tell her what I can't."
Darn, I was kind of looking forward to telling you how I was planning to use the infinity loop to my advantage. It's almost as good as time travel if you know how to use it. And you're not really time traveling, so no anomalies.
(Doing Therapy)
Thu May 27 2010 6:23 am # -
Instead of two prayers exactly the same except for one component, why not make it one prayer, the needed component "Position of humility before God"? Kneeling, laying prostrate, whatever else would qualify for that.
Well, I have two problems with that. The first is that not having the magic skills worksheet used to calculate the sit-mod in this prayer I don't know exactly what value I gave for "kneeling" as a component, so I can't say whether the body position matters to the sit-mod. That could be remedied, presumably, by digging through the threads to find the behind the screens posts in which the calculations were done, but not by me today, at least. That means you'll have to design the skill afresh, and I'll have to calculate it afresh, and we'll see where it lands.
The more immediate problem, though, is that lying prone is not a "position of humility before God" for a baby. It's the default position. To illustrate, it might make sense for a winged seraph (an angel) to place itself in "a position of humility before God" by standing on his feet instead of flying in the air, but for a man flying is not usually regarded a possibility and thus standing is not a "position of humility" by comparison. Similarly, a female sprite might consider flying on her back a "position of humility", but male sprites can't fly on their backs (and humans can't normally fly at all) so it would be nonsense to speak of them flying on their backs as a "position of humility". Such a position is such a position because it inherently involves moving from the normal position of strength and dignity to the abnormal position of weakness and vulnerability. Lying, either prone or supine, is certainly a vulnerable position even for a baby, but a baby doesn't have the ability to get into a less vulnerable position, so it can't be said to be humbling itself by lying in its normal position.
Sorry, but unless you can figure out what position a baby can adopt that would be a physical expression of humility not part of its normal daily positions, you don't have the ability to include that as a component in the skill.
And Michael is right: any bonus you would get would be based on what the skill requires of you in all circumstances. Since "position of humility" can be as vague as bowing your head or removing your hat or (in a different culture) covering your head, it really means nothing and receives no bonus. It does not restrict your ability to perform the skill, so it does not bonus doing so.
--M. J. Young
Thu May 27 2010 10:41 pm # -
JohnA1nut
MemberBut yet, you still didn't roll the dice for the prayer. I could argue that being a baby ALWAYS put me in a position of humility before God. Anyway, change kneeling to laying down. I won't always be a baby, and there may come a time when I will need to lay down as an adult to do this. Better to have it.
And why did you ask how old I was? Did you mean me or my character?
Fri May 28 2010 12:02 am # -
On the age, it was the character.
I would rather not include the "lying down" aspect in the skill description because it's misleading. It would be inappropriate for me to give you a bonus now for the requirement that you cast the spell from what is your most normal position; it would be inappropriate for you not to have the bonus when "lying down" is a position you have to assume. But when I figure out the sit-mod now there will be no bonus for that, and I will not recalculate it later based on the fact that when designed it required you to assume a position that had no meaning at the time and gained meaning later.
I haven't rolled precisely because we have not really agreed concerning the terms of the skill, so we can't determine the probability of success.
--M. J. Young
Sat May 29 2010 6:01 am # -
JohnA1nut
MemberOK, whatever, we're wasting time. If this is the only time I do it, then it's the only time I do it. Just figure it out and roll for it. I have a world to play. I would have thought "God" would have given me bonus points just for being a baby. If not, that's fine. Whatever. Just roll for it. Either it's bonused or it isn't.
(Doing Therapy)
Sat May 29 2010 6:03 am # -
JohnA1nut
MemberTwo
A baby probably can't not bow his head, either. If I say "Speak loudly and forcefully" Sarah will think I'm crying and shove a bottle in my mouth. I can't kneel, laying down is what I do anyway, looks like bonuses are impossible here.
I realize that in this instance, you are "God" but I also refuse to believe that the actual God would hold something as trivial as an inability to kneel against the person praying. Isn't there a clause for special circumstances? If I can't get it bonused through some extra action that I can't take, I'll do it without the bonus. I still refuse to believe that God would hold that against me, but whatever. Just roll the dice already. At night whilst Sarah is sleeping.
Sat May 29 2010 5:39 pm # -
If I can't get it bonused through some extra action that I can't take, I'll do it without the bonus. I still refuse to believe that God would hold that against me, but whatever. Just roll the dice already.
John, you lack imagination. There are many things you can do--you can roll from your stomach to your back (although not yet from your back to your stomach). You can raise your hands and your feet and flail with them. You can put your hands in your mouth; using your hands you can put your feet in your mouth. You can suck on objects in your mouth. You can grab things with either hand or both at once (but not separate things), including your body parts, your clothing, your bedding. You could ask whether there are any toys in your bed--it's likely that there might be a stuffed animal or a rattle or some object there to entertain a baby, and you might have a pacifier given to you to suck on for comfort when you are put to bed. I doubt there would be a mobile hanging over the bed, but it's not impossible.
If you're going to create prayers as an infant, you're going to have to think of yourself being an infant, and work within the parameters of what infants can do.
Now, if you don't want to put yourself in that mindset but just want to think the prayer and see whether it works (-25 for a prayer that has no spoken, acted, or object components) I'll crunch the numbers and roll. But don't tell me that there is nothing you can do and that "God" is holding that against you. Shamans shake rattles as part of their ritual prayers; why can't babies? O.K., that might be more noise than you want to make--but the fact is, you have options.
--M. J. Young
Sun May 30 2010 11:49 pm # -
JohnA1nut
MemberWe've wasted a week on this. OK, fine, I'll raise my hands and face towards Heaven when I pray for 20 minutes. Will you please roll the dice now?
1@1 Call Angelic Messenger M+11@7 20:00TF kneeling in established base camp with appropriate words, calls specific angel messenger to answer questions +57SM
This is the template. Hands and face raised to Heaven instead of kneeling, otherwise the same.
When the angel arrives:
"What happens if I die in this world? Under normal circumstances, my death would cause an infinity loop. I'm a verser though. I would verse out, right? I wouldn't be stuck in the infinity loop, would I?" (You can't tell me, but an angel CAN tell my character.) <wink>
I do stay in the infinity loop, don't I? That's why you wouldn't tell me. I'm not a verser. I AM John Connor. If I verse out, it's the same as if he died. Oh man MJ, what in the hell have you done to me???? (That's said with a laugh, BTW)
"How would I go about summoning the "Contingency Verser"? The Architect. I trust him, and I know he knows time travel. He wrote the theory I studied, in another lifetime."
"Could you speak to Sarah for me? Tell her what I can't."
Mon May 31 2010 12:00 am # -
JohnA1nut
MemberTwo
Do me a favor. Erase that prayer for calling a soldier from the future. I didn't even write it down. I didn't realize how dangerous that was. It's not something I'm ever going to do again, I didn't write it down, so you might as well just erase it from my sheet. Seriously.
Mon May 31 2010 8:52 am # -
JohnA1nut
MemberThree
After rereading, that first sounds a might testy. I understand that it's game mechanics and all of that, but really, seriously, God wouldn't hold it against me that I can't kneel in this body. Shouldn't there be exceptions made? I was planning to lay on my stomach with my knees bent as much as possible. As close to actual kneeling as my current physical limitations would allow. I'd actually think that would be, if anything, more difficult. Would you perhaps allow that on a bonused willpower check to maintain the position? Just thought I'd ask, ya know. I'd just really like to keep that +57 sit-mod. If a player became a paraplegic and couldn't kneel, would you still make them redo all of their prayers? Yeah, I see why you would, but I still think it stinks. I agree with the reasoning, but not with the action. The wrong thing for the right reason. God would allow exceptions.
Do I get any bonuses for having multiple summoning skills? What about being a baby? I'd think there would be an "Innocence" sit-mod applied to zygoted versers, but that's just my two cents. No matter what they may have done in the past, that is, in a sense, no longer part of them.
(Doing Therapy)
Mon May 31 2010 11:54 am # -
I know you're frustrated that I haven't rolled, and my really big excuse for not rolling tonight is that it is already incredibly late and I have had a rough day and need to get through this without getting bogged down in crunching spell numbers right now.
But I am very curious in regard to what you're planning to do if the prayer works. You're going to talk to the angel, according to your statement. You're going to say
Waappa ziffa dondis wir. der noma sirstes, maethud cawn finnyoop. Amma berser dough. aud berse ow, twite? wun be tuckin de finnyoop, wuldeye?"
and
ow udda gobow summmmming de kingessy versa? Darktec. trussim, annoienoz time taba. e wote diteewy I tudied, inodda wyfime."
and maybe
"Cu you peak t Sar forme? Tell her what I cant."
Now I want to know what you're thinking here. It could be
- Angels can understand this gibberish because they have the magic powers to know what I meant to say.
- The angel will read my mind because it's his job to find out what I want to ask and tell me, so it's up to him to get the questions from me.
- I will telepathically convey my thoughts to the angel.
- I will be enabled to speak clearly while I am communicating with the angel.
- This will all happen in a spiritual dimension where my adult spirit will be able to talk to the angelic spirit without the limitations of my infant body.
- Something else that the referee has apparently not realized.
--M. J. Young
Tue Jun 1 2010 7:35 am # -
JohnA1nut
MemberAngels can understand this gibberish because they have the magic powers to know what I meant to say.
I'd hope God would have the foresight to send an angel who was fluent in baby talk.
OR
I will be enabled to speak clearly while I am communicating with the angel.
Did God not enable a donkey to speak?
Whichever one of those requires the least amount of dice rolls.
Tue Jun 1 2010 7:38 am # -
Whichever one of those requires the least amount of dice rolls.
I'm sorry. This is an invalid character statement. It involves a character making a decision based on a game mechanic.
I may be splitting hairs here, but I think it's perfectly reasonable for you as a player to use your knowledge of game mechanics to determine which approach you think is more likely to succeed and make the character decision based on "I think this way is more likely to work"; but it is invalid for you to use my knowledge of mechanics to make that decision, and it is invalid for the character to make a choice on the basis of mechanics--which is what that statement does.
I'm not removing the other skill from the sheet, by the way. I don't care if you never use it; it matters to me that it's there.
You roll on your back and start praying, hands raised. It is difficult to keep them raised like that, but you focus on doing so while calling on God to send a messenger angel to answer your question.
You've been doing this for a while when suddenly Sarah scoops you out of your portable bed.
"What are you babbling about now?" she asks, part teasing, part groggy. "You should be asleep, you know. Are you hungry? You're not crying. Hey, what's going on in that head of yours?" she shakes her head.
--M. J. Young
Wed Jun 2 2010 1:54 am # -
JohnA1nut
MemberWhichever one of those requires the least amount of dice rolls.
I'm sorry. This is an invalid character statement. It involves a character making a decision based on a game mechanic.
I was kind of afraid you would say that. I'd think the angel would be able to understand me regardless of how I was talking. Even if I didn't have a mouth at all, so let's go with the angel can understand baby talk.
I'm not removing the other skill from the sheet, by the way. I don't care if you never use it; it matters to me that it's there.
Well, I never wrote it down. After I realized how suicidal that was, I don't even want to pretend that I know that. Why does it matter to you? Just curious.
After reading Behind the Screens, we seem to have miscommunicated. I thought that prayer was silent. I thought you were going to tell me that I rolled a failure, failure being that Sarah interrupted me. Is it required for me to babble baby talk? If it's a bonus or required, then I'm at the mercy of the GE roll, if not, I thought it was silent. If I can't make it silent, at least as quiet as possible.
"What are you babbling about now?" she asks, part teasing, part groggy. "You should be asleep, you know. Are you hungry? You're not crying. Hey, what's going on in that head of yours?" she shakes her head.
Part of me wants to keep praying. Keep my hands raised, keep babbling. If I was certain the angel could explain itself and stop Sarah from taking any negative action, I would do it in a heartbeat. Should we discuss a modification to the prayer to tell the angel to do that? Perhaps add that to the prayer on the spot, right here and now? If I can get that angel to talk to her, that would be perfect.
Keep praying, and add that to the prayer on the spot. "Angel, please, stop her and explain yourself when you arrive. Explain me. Please Angel, I need your help."
Keep my hands raised when she picks me up. Putting my arms around her neck would keep them raised above my head.
I don't know if that really changes the prayer. That's more just hoping that the angel can hear it. I'm not certain. Maybe it does. I want the angel to do that when it gets here, so maybe it does change the prayer.
If it works like I'm hoping, I'll have the angel repeat to Sarah what I'm saying.
My hope is that there isn't much time remaining, so that I can finish this before she silences me. Keep it up even if I get a pacifier shoved in my mouth. The babbling would still sound the same, I guess. A bottle would silence me. I don't want to choke. Try to resist anything if I can. Keep babbling, shaking my head. I need this angel to talk to her.
(Doing Therapy)
Wed Jun 2 2010 2:23 am # -
JohnA1nut
MemberTwo
Like I said, I thought the prayer was silent. If the babbling isn't a bonus or required, then I didn't just wake Sarah up. We may need to rewind time.
If the babbling is required, and this doesn't work, try again tomorrow night, and try to be more quiet.
(Doing Therapy)
Wed Jun 2 2010 10:18 pm # -
Well, I never wrote it down. After I realized how suicidal that was, I don't even want to pretend that I know that. Why does it matter to you? Just curious.
Have you ever heard of Chris and the Teleporting Spaceships? It was on DiceTales when that site was still around (along with Eric and the Gazebo, which you can still find on the Web under that name). In any case, once you've taught yourself a skill, you know it. Maybe you'll use it as a pattern to teach yourself another skill. Maybe you'll teach it to someone else you think could use it. Maybe one day you'll use it by mistake. It's learned; it's part of you now.
Is it required for me to babble baby talk?
No, it is not required that you say anything. If you do not say anything, there are no words; if there are no words, there being nothing else that is appropriate to the specific request, there is no bonus for appropriateness. You have managed to avoid the major penalty for having no words, no objects, and no actions, and if you want the spell to be completely silent with you lying on your back with your arms raised for twenty minutes thinking your request, that's fine; I'll do the math based on that, and Sarah won't hear you babbling.
And if that's what you intended, I'll erase the previous attempt and do it over without the disruption.
(Honestly, I looked back over several posts looking for the place where you said you were going to think those thoughts, but I couldn't find it; and the template you gave had you speaking aloud, so I followed that.)
--M. J. Young
Thu Jun 3 2010 12:34 am # -
JohnA1nut
Member1@1 Call Angelic Messenger M+11@7 20:00TF kneeling in established base camp with appropriate words, calls specific angel messenger to answer questions +57SM
(Honestly, I looked back over several posts looking for the place where you said you were going to think those thoughts, but I couldn't find it; and the template you gave had you speaking aloud, so I followed that.)
Oh I didn't realize that "Appropriate words" meant speaking aloud. I guess neither of us was completely clear. Yeah, roll em. Twenty minutes silent praying.
When the angel arrives (hopefully) I'm probably going to ask it to awaken Sarah. (It, for an angel?) I need to communicate with her. Certainly an angel would have 3@ charisma and could charm her into calming down and hearing him out.
(Doing Therapy)
Thu Jun 3 2010 12:39 am # -
JohnA1nut
MemberTwo
Curious. If I was to summon Lauren back into the scenario, she could have gone through a thousand verses between the last time I saw her. It also could be a divergent verser Lauren that never met me at all. This is true, isn't it? That could be interesting.
Is it within my ability to nod (yes) and shake my head (no)? After the angel talks to Sarah, and she knows my mind is functioning, even asking me yes or no questions would be a great communication.
(Doing Therapy)
Thu Jun 3 2010 2:47 am # -
I think the answer is sort of but not reliably. You'd have to roll for it each time.Is it within my ability to nod (yes) and shake my head (no)?
I don't have any particular reason to think that angels have high charisma. They do have high persuasion, mostly because people are terrified of them on sight.
You pray for twenty minutes, and an angel appears.
You babble, trying to say "What happens if I die in this world? Under normal circumstances, my death would cause an infinity loop. I'm a verser though. I would verse out, right? I wouldn't be stuck in the infinity loop, would I?"
He looks puzzled for a moment, and then he seems to understand. In a deep voice, he answers, "You are asking me how time works. I do not know how time works; we do not have time of the same kind in our realm. However, I will find out for you."
He vanishes.
--M. J. Young
Fri Jun 4 2010 5:07 am #
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