Gaming Outpost Discussions

1. 

   WilliamTWodium
   Member

   It's too late at night for a full post, but I can hit a few points.

   Did you see the effect of how 1 participant could change the flow of events?

   Actually, I thought I made a merciful choice here. I saw two ways I could approach your invitation for others to participate:

   1) Additional participants, if they assist, assist under their own power - that is, they use skills of their own to boost your chance of success. Thus, you don't need them, but they could help if they succeed at their own skills checks. (Bonus Skill Checks is M1@4 - very simple magic, in bias terms.)

   2) Additional participants are expected, and the magic is more difficult to perform without them. They don't need to make skill checks to assist because their participation at your behest is part of your ritual, but you are relying on them joining in and so suffer a penalty if fewer than expected participate.

   Given that I thought it highly unlikely that any creature in range of your broadcast thought projection even had the ability to speak (or project thought), I thought it at least as unlikely that you would garner even a single participant. It would require a general effects roll to determine if anyone or anything on the other side of the portal was both (a) a valid potential participant and (b) decided to participate. Given my view of the situation, it would take a strongly positive roll to mean you got your participants, and making that roll, of course, would open you up to the possibility of negative results.

   Even with that in mind, the sit-mod would likely be something like -5, +2 per additional participant, or -10, +3 per additional participant, or something along those lines. A threshold would need to be reached before the bonus for the assistance began to outweigh the penalty for not actually needing the assistance.

   So as I said, I thought it more generous to assume (1). Perhaps I ought to have rolled a GE for if anything on the other side of the portal heard you, wanted to help, and was willing to invent a M1@4 Bonus Magic Skill Check spell based on joining in with another caster's chant. Perhaps I ought to have, or perhaps I know something you don't.

   I admit that I never considered whether your parents would join in or not. That is because I knew they were not in the immediate area, I understood you to be projecting thought to the immediate area only, and I didn't think you were also uttering the incantation across your private telepathic links with your parents. I was under the impression they never even knew you were casting.

   What kind of range were you expecting on your broadcast thought projection? Perhaps we ought to have explored that in more depth. I wasn't thinking anything more than a 30 meter radius.

   Ritual factor = 5+10+15+3-25 = 8

   Yeah, I added in the +10 for spirit form after the fact and neglected to update the math to reflect it. However:

   I just wanted to tell you that the ritual is actually a unison prayer which could be considered alliance magic considering the act of healing wound and I have "1@5 Religion, undisclosed alliance faith M1@0".

   Perhaps I should have asked whether this were holy or arcane, but I saw nothing in this spell to indicate that you were praying to God to close the rift for you. I'm not saying all holy magic has to include a direct appeal to a deity, but ultimately the distinction is this: with arcane magic, you manipulate the magic yourself. With holy magic, you petition some other entity to manipulate it on your behalf. Under that definition, do you still think was alliance holy magic you were attempting?

   (Also, if you try to do holy magic without disclosing the religion, you will irritate me. I'm not saying I won't let you, necessarily - hasn't happened, so I don't have to decide yet - but it would bother me. It's hard for me to run the game if I don't know what going on.)

   I will then concentrate for 8 minutes then try to stop material space/time.

   I'm about to fall unconscious, but I thought I'd warn you that I'll want to know more about this. I'm not even 100% sure it's psionic, much less willing to hazard a guess as to minor details like area of effect, "duration," whether you intend to affect both sides of the rift or just one, etc. ...

   Wed May 12 2010 8:48 am #
2. 

   Max
   Member

   Additional participants are expected, and the magic is more difficult to perform without them. They don't need to make skill checks to assist because their participation at your behest is part of your ritual, but you are relying on them joining in and so suffer a penalty if fewer than expected participate.

   I did expect some to join in so I think the above is more likely. If I expect at least one being to join then what would be the penalty and bonus then?

   I didn't think you were also uttering the incantation across your private telepathic links with your parents. I was under the impression they never even knew you were casting.

   In step (1) of the ritual, I did say that I will:

   ask anyone that have telepathy connection with me to chant with me in their own language if they wanted to.

   That proves that Morach intent to tell everyone that have telepathy connection with him about the ritual.

   What kind of range were you expecting on your broadcast thought projection?

   Probably RS multiplied by my current adult size.

   Under that definition, do you still think was alliance holy magic you were attempting?

   Yes, below is the response that shows that.

   Previously you wrote:
   Am I correct in thinking that the ritual will function regardless of whether or not entities in the area respond to your invitation to join the chant
   And I replied:
   Yes, but I believe that the Creator will hear me nonetheless.

   I also said that:

   As long it have the intended effects I do not mind which method you choose. I would leave that to your judgment.

   That shows that I do not intent to manipulate it myself.

   if you try to do holy magic without disclosing the religion, you will irritate me.

   I did tell about my religion previously but I just did not tell what is the name of the religion. The below is my answer when asked about it.

   Well, I study various religion and belief system.
   It is sufficient to say I believe in a power that governs all reality and simulation where each world are some sort of frequency.
   This collective frequency is like the mind of God or a part of it.

   If you want me to name it then "Panentheism" would probably be best to describe it.

   area of effect, "duration," whether you intend to affect both sides of the rift or just one

   If I think relatively that the spirit have infinity speed then the area of effect would be self relative to all. The "duration" would be the apparent duration of the skill that would be about RS minutes. If it is cast to self relative to all then both sides of the rift should be affected when viewed from the user.

   Wed May 12 2010 1:16 pm #
3. 

   WilliamTWodium
   Member

   I also said that:

   As long it have the intended effects I do not mind which method you choose. I would leave that to your judgment.

   That shows that I do not intent to manipulate it myself.

   This is perhaps the best example yet of how much we're failing to communicate. I understood the sentences you quoted to mean, "Scott, please stop dragging out this mechanical discussion. Just pick something that could accomplish my objectives and roll for it."

   So I did.

   In the process, I made several swift decisions in an effort to get the game moving again, and I was not prepared for an Inquisition afterward. Had I known we would still be discussing it now, I would have taken far more time discussing it before I rolled the dice.

   I have to go to work. When I get back, I'll probably make a separate thread for this discussion so we can continue the game in this one. [Edit: unless you'd like to start it yourself, of course, in my absence.]

   Wed May 12 2010 5:46 pm #
4. 

   Max
   Member

   This is perhaps the best example yet of how much we're failing to communicate.

   Sorry about that. I probably should have made my point clearer.

   Had I known we would still be discussing it now, I would have taken far more time discussing it before I rolled the dice.

   Well, I did not mind about it because to me it is still a botch. The discussion is done just in case I wanted to do the same thing in the future.

   When I get back, I'll probably make a separate thread for this discussion so we can continue the game in this one.

   That will be up to you. I am satisfied with your ruling. If you want to discuss it in another thread to ask for clarification just in case I would repeat the skill again then be my guest.

   Wed May 12 2010 11:58 pm #
5. 

   WilliamTWodium
   Member

   I will concentrate for a minute then try to make the spirit form travel independently as long as the body life function is preserved.

   I assume that this means "until death"; if you mean something else by this, tell me now. I can allow this at baseline (no bonus or penalty) on the following conditions: (1) a second successful skill check must be made to reunite your spirit with your body, and (2) your spirit must return to your body's location in order to do so. Is this acceptable? and, have I correctly understood your intent?

   If I think relatively that the spirit have infinity speed then the area of effect would be self relative to all. The "duration" would be the apparent duration of the skill that would be about RS minutes. If it is cast to self relative to all then both sides of the rift should be affected when viewed from the user.

   This sounds like you're not actually stopping time, but are instead accelerating your own speed to an incredible degree. Which is it? And, is this intended to be psionic, arcane magic, or holy magic?

   "Yes, I am alright."

   Your father's thoughts come across the link, seeming a little strained.
   ::Son, I need you to wake up now. You're upsetting your mother.::

   ____
   Again, holding off on running the actions until I know what they are.

   Fri May 14 2010 7:40 am #
6. 

   Max
   Member

   I wonder if the other side of the portal exploded too so I will take a peek to the other side of the portal.

   What happen to the other side of the portal?

   Son, I need you to wake up now. You're upsetting your mother.

   "I am sorry but I cannot wake up right now because I am in deep sleep state. I probably will wake up after a quarter day passes by. Please tell mom not to worry."
   If I am not mistaken, the telepathy connection to Morach's parents would probably be ending any minute soon.

   "Sorry, that does not exactly behave like I intended. You should check your nest on the other side to see if everything is intact."

   Does Oo-hii reply to my thoughts?
   If he does not reply then I will say, "Are you alright? Do you want me to tend to your wound or something? Please wait as long as the ritual time while I find a way to help you."

   I will then resume my next actions.

   *****

   I assume that this means "until death"

   Yes, that is right.

   (1) a second successful skill check must be made to reunite your spirit with your body

   I agree with this condition.

   (2) your spirit must return to your body's location in order to do so.

   This condition however is a little weird considering Morach does not know his current body location unless he deactivates the spirit form (or tries to use his other skills to search for his body). So I think the next best thing would be to include a remote presence skill which would penalize the learning of this skill if it is done remotely. I just hope that the concentration period bonus is high enough to cancel out the penalty of doing it from afar.

   This sounds like you're not actually stopping time, but are instead accelerating your own speed to an incredible degree. Which is it?

   That depends on how a person perceive space/time. Relative to Morach's perception, the space/time actually stops. The material world would probably be limited to certain speed (such as speed of light) but in spirit form, a being could achieve much greater speed. So I guess it would be the latter if viewed from the environment perspective.

   And, is this intended to be psionic, arcane magic, or holy magic?

   I intend it to be psionic.

   If I expect at least one being to join then what would be the penalty and bonus then?

   This question should be thought about (but preferably not answered until it matters) for reasons that will be obvious in the future. I wonder if the skill will be penalized if only one person is expected to participate in it. I also wonder what the bonus would be for additional participants.

   Fri May 14 2010 12:48 pm #
7. 

   WilliamTWodium
   Member

   Sorry, I was falling unconscious while posting so I only responded to half of your post; I figured half a response was better than none. I started off with mechanical roadblocks and then started tackling actions in what I perceived as chronological order until I ran out of steam. Yes, you check the other side of the portal, and yes, Oo-hii responds; I just didn't get to that last night. Post coming soon.

   Sat May 15 2010 2:26 am #
8. 

   WilliamTWodium
   Member

   "Sorry, that does not exactly behave like I intended. You should check your nest on the other side to see if everything is intact."

   ::Save your taunts for when I find you, liar! Perhaps they will comfort you as I wet my throat with your blood!::

   He takes off into the forest canopy, moving erratically, but headed away and vaguely northward.

   I wonder if the other side of the portal exploded too so I will take a peek to the other side of the portal.

   It is immediately obvious that the explosion hit here, too, but the plant life seems to be in better condition overall. Nothing is on fire; things are steaming, not smoking. The smell of ozone has intensified ten-fold, and small mammals, birds, and insects litter the forest floor, looking as though they've fallen from the trees. The insects you can see have been crisped. You can hear what sounds like something massive moving in the underbrush some distance away, but you don't see where it's coming from. A purple mist that wasn't there before hangs over one nearby bush.

   "I am sorry but I cannot wake up right now because I am in deep sleep state. I probably will wake up after a quarter day passes by. Please tell mom not to worry."

   You mother begins to plead with you to awaken, but you hear no reply from your father.

   ___
   

   (2) your spirit must return to your body's location in order to do so.

   Just to be clear, I meant you would need to find your body to end the effect. With the semi-permanent effect, you don't need to worry about maintaining your spirit form. Because it's semi-permanent, though, you can't just say, "I'm done" and pop back to your body; the semi-permanent spirit form needs to be actively undone, and your body's location needs to at least be known for that process to be possible.

   If you'd like to initiate the semi-permanent spirit form while away from your body, though, I see no reason to disallow that or to penalize it. Go right ahead.

   Does that clear things up, or did you already know that and I misunderstood your objection?

   That depends on how a person perceive space/time.

   No, it depends on what you're targeting. Are you psionically manipulating the universe such that time slows/stops materially, or are you psionically manipulating yourself such that, from your subjective point of view, time appears to have slowed or stopped? These are very different skills with different bias listings, and the choice has other consequences beyond that. It is not a matter of perspective.

   So I guess it would be the latter if viewed from the environment perspective.

   Does this mean the target is yourself, not the universe?

   If I am not mistaken, the telepathy connection to Morach's parents would probably be ending any minute soon.

   You are mistaken. You have a good twenty minutes left, not that you know it.

   Sat May 15 2010 5:38 am #
9. 

   Max
   Member

   Save your taunts for when I find you, liar

   Cannot blame Oo-hii for calling me a liar. Oh well, what is done is done.
   I wonder if "was" is more appropriate for that sentence but I think Morach do not have time to think about that.

   Perhaps they will comfort you as I wet my throat with your blood!

   "They?", I asked but not expecting any answer.

   He takes off into the forest canopy, moving erratically, but headed away and vaguely northward.

   Which way is that?
   If the rift is in between my spirit and the winter tree position (or what is left of it), then which way does Oo-hii moves to?

   You can hear what sounds like something massive moving in the underbrush some distance away, but you don't see where it's coming from. A purple mist that wasn't there before hangs over one nearby bush.

   Interesting. It looks like some dangerous things are coming.

   You mother begins to plead with you to awaken

   I will advise my father to take my mother away from the explosion source.

   After that, I will resume with my next actions.

   *****

   Just to be clear, I meant you would need to find your body to end the effect.

   That clears it up. I misunderstood it earlier. If that is the case then I agree.

   are you psionically manipulating yourself such that, from your subjective point of view, time appears to have slowed or stopped?

   Yes. For this skill, time appears to have stopped.

   Does this mean the target is yourself, not the universe?

   Yes because I did not think I have the power to target the universe psionically yet although that feat would be possible using alliance magic.

   You are mistaken. You have a good twenty minutes left, not that you know it.

   The below is the roll for it.

   Even without knowing if this is a skill learning attempt or skill performance, a 29 succeeds (and if it's two consecutive skill performances, a 44 would work for the second).

   That would mean that you take 44 as the RS. Subtracting the 14 minutes of ritual time and 10 minutes of perceive density and force field (including the 2 minutes failure) from 44 minutes would equal to 20 minutes. I did not know how long the spirit ejection, mind meld botch, telepathy, suggestion, travel, detect materials and others would take but I think they would probably be negligible if I really have 20 minutes left.

   Sat May 15 2010 1:17 pm #
10. 

    WilliamTWodium
    Member

    I wonder if "was" is more appropriate for that sentence

    No, it's "is." At the present time, the subject under discussion is in a state of completion: it is done, and it remains so.

    You are correct that I was mistaken concerning the telepathy duration; I was looking at the 51 you rolled for Oo-hii. However, that forty-four I rolled was a hypothetical, to cover all my bases until we figured out what you had done. It later turned out that you were learning a single skill (not attempting a known skill twice), so the 44 was discarded and the 29 became the only successful roll. You have approximately 0:00 remaining on the telepathy, unless you want to chain it.

    "They?", I asked but not expecting any answer.

    In this case, the antecedent of "they" is "your taunts"; perhaps [your taunts] will comfort you as I [murder you painfully].

    Which way is [north]?

    Pick a direction. It doesn't particularly matter, because once he's about fifteen or twenty meters out, he veers right, embarking on what is either a spiral or circular trajectory.

    I will advise my father to take my mother away from the explosion source.

    You can feel the telepathic connection fading as you send this message. Are you attempting to maintain it, or are you letting it go?

    I will concentrate for a minute then try to make the spirit form travel independently as long as the body life function is preserved.

    I will then concentrate for 8 minutes then try to stop material space/time.

    You achieve the more permanent severance of your spirit from your body.
    _____

    60 rolled means Maxx learns Controlled Out-of-Body P5@10 with a 1@2 SAL. Both his telepathy and his spirit form expire basically now, so this is good timing.

    I need to poll opinions on this time stop thing. I started a thread here.

    Sat May 15 2010 8:53 pm #
11. 

    Max
    Member

    Thanks for the language tips.

    In this case, the antecedent of "they" is "your taunts"; perhaps [your taunts] will comfort you as I [murder you painfully].

    I guess Morach and Oo-hii seems to have communication problems too.

    You can feel the telepathic connection fading as you send this message. Are you attempting to maintain it, or are you letting it go?

    I will say goodbye to both my parents before the connection fades. I will then let go of the connection to concentrate on my next action.

    You achieve the more permanent severance of your spirit from your body.

    According to my calculation the spirit form should expire a minute after mass telepathy.
    Did I feel anything change during this more permanent severance or did I just feel that the skill did not fade anymore?

    *****

    I need to poll opinions on this time stop thing.

    Interesting, is it not?

    Sat May 15 2010 9:26 pm #
12. 

    WilliamTWodium
    Member

    Did I feel anything change during this more permanent severance or did I just feel that the skill did not fade anymore?

    Yes, you did. Mostly, it feels like one less thing you have to keep your mind on; a distraction has been removed.

    I will then concentrate for 8 minutes then try to stop material space/time.

    Something large snuffles around the opening of the other side of the rift while you're concentrating, but you mostly ignore it, and it goes away. You are vaugely aware that Oo-hii's path of travel is a wide spiral, not a circle.

    When you feel you are finished, you cease to feel the breeze blowing through you; the tiny, lingering fires that litter the forest floor no longer flicker, their flames frozen in place (or perhaps oozing into new positions, almost imperceptibly slowly). You appear to have succeeded.

    What now?

    ____

    22 rolled learns the following skill (-27 character bias, +20 BRA, +40 SM, etc.):

    1@1 Time Stop (Hyperaccelration) P14@8 requires eight minutes high concentration to initiate, appears to stop time for all but the user by tremendously slowing his temporal experience, allowing him to take actions which do not involve his material aspects at a hyperaccelerated rate, lasts RS subjective minutes, strenuous chaining, +40 SM

    Incidentally, his psi bias rises to 14@8.

    Wed May 19 2010 7:38 am #
13. 

    Max
    Member

    Mostly, it feels like one less thing you have to keep your mind on; a distraction has been removed.

    That makes me wonder if I can return back to my body later. I probably can detect my body using detect materials by detecting my own hair/saliva or locate my family mind but I wonder if I can detect my body using easier methods (or if I happen to stumble on one).

    You are vaugely aware that Oo-hii's path of travel is a wide spiral, not a circle.

    That is a good way to search someone. I could calculate his detection range if I can see the pattern of the spiral but I guess I am too busy concentrating at that time.

    lingering fires that litter the forest floor no longer flicker, their flames frozen in place (or perhaps oozing into new positions, almost imperceptibly slowly).

    Did I notice the change of the flames if I only look at it for a while?
    I will remember the shape of the frozen flames for future reference.
    I will also look for a falling object (or smoke motion) for comparison purposes and if I can find it then I remember this instead of the frozen flames.
    If the environment still moves albeit slowly, this probably means that the acceleration still does not achieve light speed. If it achieves light speed, the environment would probably stop. If material things try to accelerate to light speed then probably their time would stop too (if they manage to) so I think only immaterial things could accelerate to light speed or over. The law of physics in Morach's verse could be different which I think would be interesting to experiment.

    What now?

    I wonder what would happen if I travel faster than light.
    Would I travel back in space/time or would I only perceive space act in reverse?
    Would I perceive it to move in reverse faster if I increase the speed further?
    I think I could see past events of one location if I travel faster than light but I have to see the event further away from the location. This probably would not change the fact that the event have already happened.
    To test the above notion, I will get away from the rift to see if I can see the past events of the rift from the perspective of light that came from it a fractions of second ago especially the shape of the frozen flames. After that I will go back to the rift to compare the shape of the frozen flames when view at close before (first viewing), when view at a distance, and when view at close after (second viewing). If I see a falling object (or smoke motion) near the rift then I will compare that instead.
    I will use about a minute (of apparent time) for the above purposes.

    If I found that the event would not change after I go away and back, I will go to the other side of the rift and check things out.
    I will go the the *bad place* and try to examine whatever substance that might trigger evolution to Oo-hii's brother if it is in a minute distance. If I did not know the direction to the *bad place* then I will look for a place that looks like one from Oo-hii memories.

    Wed May 19 2010 7:56 pm #
14. 

    WilliamTWodium
    Member

    Did I notice the change of the flames if I only look at it for a while?

    No; perhaps you were imagining it.

    To test the above notion . . .
    I will use about a minute (of apparent time) for the above purposes.

    If there is any difference in the scene from a distance of several meters away, you cannot detect it. There appears to be no danger of inadvertantly looking at the past rather than the present.

    You pass through the portal.

    One of the dangers of the *bad places*, as you'll recall, is that it can be difficult to tell when you are in one. Further, while you have some vague recollection of the general shape of Oo-hii's territory, you have no idea at all where the rift is located in that territory (if, indeed, it is located in his territory at all, though it seems unlikely that it would not be). If you knew where the rift was, you might be able to figure out an appropriate direction of travel, but you currently lack that knowledge.

    You don't have any visual memories that would allow you to identify a *bad place* by sight; in any case, *bad places* can cover quite a bit of ground, so a visual snapshot would be unhelpful in locating one.

    One thing you remember that could be helpful is that the flora and fauna in the *bad places* often differs somewhat from what's in Oo-hii's general territory. The changes aren't always obvious, but if (for example) while wandering around you suddenly notice that a particular pink fungus which had been common is suddenly nowhere to be seen, you might have wandered into a *bad place*. This knowledge would be more helpful if you were more familiar with the local wildlife, of course.

    Given all of this, do you have a plan for locating a *bad place* other than wandering around and hoping somewhere looks familiar? And, how long are you willing to spend searching before trying something else (if you don't find one, that is)?

    _____
    Even if every second of real time took one day of apparent time to elapse (that's roughly fifteen apparent minutes per real hundredth-second, slow enough that apparent time passes imperceptibly), light is still moving at an apparent rate of (very roughly) 3,300m/s, or 33m per hundredth-second. Even if perception in spirit form is affected by such material concerns as the speed of light (an open question), and even if the physical laws of this universe are essentially unchanged, that is far beyond Maxx's apparent speed, and he won't get to glimpse the past at the speeds and distances he'll be able to manage over the course of a minute's casual experimentation.

    The question of how he will find a *bad place* is more interesting to me. A difficult intellect check for recalling useful memories from the mind meld comes up 14, a success I was not expecting. However, success at this does not entail successful location of a *bad place*; it just means he recalls something helpful. We'll give him something and see what he does with it.

    Sat May 22 2010 7:52 am #
15. 

    Max
    Member

    There appears to be no danger of inadvertantly looking at the past rather than the present.

    Interesting, that means I am slower than light. Probably I should try a light pulse experiment later to see how fast I really am.

    You pass through the portal.

    That is the first time I pass through a portal. To commemorate this event, I will spin around the portal to look around this other world and examine the indigenous substance (situated close to the rift) that looks peculiar and I have not seen it anywhere before. I will take one apparent minute doing this.

    Given all of this, do you have a plan for locating a *bad place* other than wandering around and hoping somewhere looks familiar?

    That would take a lot of time and since I have more pressing matters at hand I will abort the plan to search for *bad place* for now.

    I wonder what would happen if a material (or spirit) falls over the edge of rift.
    Would that material (or spirit) be cut in half or something?
    To test this, I will go to the side of the rift and face its edge. I will concentrate for 4 minutes then try to create a light ball right in front of me.
    If I succeed, I will let it move to the edge of the rift and see what happens. If it is not cut in half when the ball is at the center of the rift, I will try to move the light ball to other side of the portal which would theoretically left half of ball on this side and the other half of the ball to the other side although it would be interesting to see what actually would happen.
    The light ball is a sphere (with diameter of Morach's palm) that emits light in an outward fashion to conserve energy although you could make it emit light inwardly too if Morach feels that adding this feat makes the skill easier to be done although I doubt expanding more energy would make it easier. It will last RS apparent minutes.

    *****

    "Walking Speeds" of two to seven miles per hour = 0.89408 m/s to 3.12928 m/s
    1 day = 86400 seconds
    1 apparent second = 1/86400 real second
    Hyper speed = 77248.512 m/s to 270369.792 m/s
    Light speed = 299 792 458 m/s or about 300 000 km/s
    Apparent light speed = 3470 m/s [viewed from spirit form if spirit can travel faster than light but if the perception is the same as material form then the speed of light would be the same because the perception would be made slower]
    Percentage to speed of light (PSL)= 0.026% to 0.09% [approximate value]
    PSL*(2^x)=100
    2^x=100/PSL
    x ln 2 = ln(100/PSL)
    x = ln(100/PSL)/ln 2
    x = ln(1109)/ln 2 to ln(3881)/ln 2
    x = 10.115 to 11.92
    Doubling to exceed speed of light from minimum walking speed = 12
    Haste that doubles speed eleven times would probably work too if the initial speed is the maximum of "walking speeds".
    The above is the calculation just in case that Morach attempt to exceed speed of light.

    Sat May 22 2010 8:38 pm #
16. 

    WilliamTWodium
    Member

    and examine the indigenous substance (situated close to the rift) that looks peculiar and I have not seen it anywhere before

    Saying "the substance" (as opposed to "a substance" or "any substance" or other similar phrase) implies a particular substance which we previously mentioned and which you expect me to recognize as being the substance you're referring to. Is this the case (and if so, what in particular do you refer to - the tree bark, perhaps?), or are you merely looking for unfamilar substances and examining any such substances that you find?

    To test this, I will go to the side of the rift and face its edge. I will concentrate for 4 minutes then try to create a light ball right in front of me.

    You concentrate, but you can't seem to figure out how to transform your inner power into something with material existence. After four apparent minutes, you have nothing to show for your efforts.

    _____
    A slight language hiccup and a skill learning roll: 91. That's probably just failure, but let's check: he's attempting a 15@2 Create Psuedo-Object with a character psi bias of 14@8, so -4 for the skill's bias; the world bias is at least P2@ thanks to Oo-hi's Mental Defense Shield, but could be as high as P15@, so adding the world bias level once gives us a total adjustment of anywhere from -2 to +11. His 1@10 BRA makes that 18 to 31, no teacher, instructor, or example, which only leaves inherent sit-mods. Those sit-mods won't be as low as -18 or as high as +60 (even including the +20 or +30 for time factor), the numbers needed to make 91 a botch or a success, so I needn't worry about it.

    Six apparent minutes spent so far.

    Sun May 23 2010 10:28 pm #
17. 

    Max
    Member

    or are you merely looking for unfamilar substances and examining any such substances that you find?

    The above is what I meant although at first I did thought of the tree I saw earlier but I change my mind later because I am unsure that the tree survived the explosion.

    You concentrate, but you can't seem to figure out how to transform your inner power into something with material existence. After four apparent minutes, you have nothing to show for your efforts.

    I will go through the rift half way then I will face the edge of the rift. This way, half of my spirit is in the other world and I can view both world simultaneously. I will concentrate for 5 apparent minutes then try the skill again.
    If I succeed, I will try to move the light ball pass the edge and see if it will be cut in half.

    *****

    the world bias is at least P2@ thanks to Oo-hi's Mental Defense Shield, but could be as high as P15@

    I wonder how it will be calculated if I stand half way through the rift.

    a skill learning roll: 91

    A near botch indeed.

    Sun May 23 2010 11:43 pm #
18. 

    WilliamTWodium
    Member

    You regroup and try again once you've positioned yourself between the edges of the portal, centering one edge in your visual field such that one world is on the left and the other is on the right.

    Five minutes later you have your breakthrough, and you manage to create your ball of light. It is somewhat dimmer than you had wanted, but otherwise it is exactly as you imagined.

    The light ball passes "in" and "out" of the rift easily enough, but when you try to move it through the edge of the portal, it simply stops. Efforts to pass it through the boundry lines of the rift are unsuccessful; you get the impression you would have more success trying to pass it through a brick wall.

    _____
    You're either in one world or you're in the other. Since the learning roll is a 15, it doesn't matter which.

    1@1 Create Light-shedding Force Object P15@2 requires five minutes uninterrupted high concentration; creates a hollow pseudo-object from shaped force which radiates light outward, position manipulable by the skilled user until ignored, continues to exist for a reasonable period thereafter, +13 SM

    (Also, while I imagine that your subjective perceptions create the impression that your spirit takes up space, whether or not its position is represented in more than one of the three perceptible spatial dimensions is not yet a settled question in your game. That is, why suppose that your spirit has area or volume - i.e., exists along mutiple points - as would be necessary for your spirit's position to extend into multiple universes?)

    I gave thought to the question of how to treat the edges of the portal when it was first created, so no rolls are needed to settle the question of how they interact with the light ball.

    Mon May 24 2010 7:17 am #
19. 

    Max
    Member

    Did I examine any peculiar substance before I try to create the light ball?

    The light ball passes "in" and "out" of the rift easily enough, but when you try to move it through the edge of the portal, it simply stops.

    That actually confirms that my speed is lower than light. I am also surprised at the hardness of the light ball that it does not get cut in half although I try to ram it to the edge at a very high speed (at least at 0.026% speed of light). This raises the question of what would happen if a force greater than the material limit is applied to the edge of the rift. Would the object be split in two or would the rift have some sort of fail-safe mechanism that will absorb the force instead?
    That gives me some idea about manipulating the properties of rift.

    I will concentrate for four apparent minutes then try to make the rift reverse the space/time around it by making it absorb causality. The first limitation of this skill would be I have to be at the center of the rift at moment of initiating the skill and be one with the rift to avoid the causality of the skill itself be absorbed. This would mean that if the skill works, my spirit will be at the rift position regardless where my body or spirit is previously. The second limitation of the skill is it can only absorb causality up to the moment the rift is first created.
    I wonder if the skill is considered as Alter Reality.

    *****

    You're either in one world or you're in the other.

    How do you determine the above? Do you:
    1) Roll a dice to determine which world one is currently in?
    2) Consider that one is in the previous world until all spirit/body part have gone to the other side?
    3) Consider that one is in the next world when any spirit/body part have gone to the other side but will be back to the previous world if all spirit/body part are pull back?
    4) Thought of some other way to resolve this problem?

    The below calculation could also solve the problem.
    The part percentage could be allocated to useful parts that is included in the skill and if any of the useful parts are biased out then the skill would not work.
    Average world bias (AWB) = Sum of (Part percentage*World bias/100)
    Examples:
    1) 50% of P15@ world and 50% of P2@ world:
    AWB = (50*15/100) + (50*2/100) = 7.5+1 = 8.5
    2) 30% of P15@ world, 30% of P9@ world, 40% of P6@ world:
    AWB = (30*15/100) + (30*9/100) + (40*6/100)= 4.5+2.7+2.4 = 9.6

    +13 SM

    I wonder how you get that value. Does the skill get penalized for something?

    That is, why suppose that your spirit has area or volume - i.e., exists along mutiple points - as would be necessary for your spirit's position to extend into multiple universes?

    That is an excellent question. I also wonder if Oo-hii sense Morach as one point in space or a being with volume considering that Oo-hii tried to attack Morach. I wonder if Oo-hii would attack a being that only have that much existence. Even a speck of food would be more appetizing to Oo-hii if he view/sense Morach as a one point in space. However, a spirit could exist as one point in space that is wrap by the illusion of one's perception.

    Mon May 24 2010 8:21 pm #
20. 

    WilliamTWodium
    Member

    I will concentrate for four apparent minutes then try to make the rift reverse the space/time around it by making it absorb causality.

    I have no earthly idea what this means. I understand the words "reverse," "space/time," "absorb," and "causality," but when you string them together with other words in this order, I am baffled.

    What do you expect to happen if whatever-it-is-you're-trying-to-do succeeds?

    Also, I have made a major error. I wrote:

    The light ball passes "in" and "out" of the rift easily enough, but when you try to move it through the edge of the portal, it simply stops.

    When I wrote that, I ignored the fact that the light ball is a material object, and thus that your efforts to move it, while actually successful, result in no apparent motion. It would move at perhaps one meter per second, which is an apparent rate of about 0.1 mm per minute and a half. Please ignore and forget anything I posted which suggested that the light ball did anything other than shed light and hang apparently motionless in exactly the spot you created it.

    Did I examine any peculiar substance before I try to create the light ball?

    All substances in the immediate vicinity of the rift are organic (or mixed with organics, in the case of the soil). While nearly every organism nearby is potentially unknown to Earth's scientists (and thus potentially contains novel proteins; does that count?), the most obviously peculiar substance is the photovoltaic-looking bark of the nearest tree, much of which was blasted off in the explosion. The tree's sap glitters, time-frozen as it oozes from the wound to the tree's exterior.

    How are you examining the tree bark, and what do you hope to discover or commit to memory?

    ____
    

    You're either in one world or you're in the other.

    How do you determine the above?

    I haven't solved this problem yet because it is not yet a problem. When it becomes one, I'll pick a solution.

    (That's the answer in my game. If you'd like to discuss the matter in your role as a future referee, you are of course quite welcome to start a thread for that purpose.)

    I wonder how you get [+13]. Does the skill get penalized for something?

    Yes, I eventually decided to assess -10 for including two effects into one skill (15@1 Create Light and 15@2 Create Shaped Force). I considered simply including the light for free with the restriction that the skill was not capable of creating psuedo-objects which did not shed light. However, when I noticed that the created psuedo-object lasts, at baseline, much longer than most Create Light effects and generally requires less concentration to maintain, I decided that I would rather grant the combined skill the benefit of the better baselines and penalize it with a sit-mod than leave the sit-mod unchanged while restricting it to the duration and concentration baselines of a Create Light.

    Most of this sort of thing is left very much to referee's discretion. Your rulings may vary, once you're running games.

    That is an excellent question. I also wonder if Oo-hii sense Morach as one point in space or a being with volume considering that Oo-hii tried to attack Morach.

    Oo-hii's sixth sense informs him of the locations of nearby *easy-prey* - distance and direction. It provides no information whatever concerning size, shape, volume, or any other characteristic of the creature sensed aside from its location (save that it is capable of being sensed in the first place and thus is *easy-prey*).

    Tue May 25 2010 5:41 am #
21. 

    Max
    Member

    The tree's sap glitters, time-frozen as it oozes from the wound to the tree's exterior.
    How are you examining the tree bark, and what do you hope to discover or commit to memory?

    I examine the tree's sap so that I could detect it with my Detect Materials skill in the future.

    Please ignore and forget anything I posted which suggested that the light ball did anything other than shed light and hang apparently motionless in exactly the spot you created it.

    Forget about what? (Looks around to remember about the things that have been forgotten.) By the way, that is a good example of space/time reversal which I am the observer/target and you are the person who reverses space/time by absorbing causality. You know that there is something you wanted others to forget but the observer/target would not know about the things that you are talking about.
    That confirms that my light ball is actually a material object. It also confirms that I am slower than light because I can see the light from the light ball without moving to it.

    What do you expect to happen if whatever-it-is-you're-trying-to-do succeeds?

    Space/time would reverse which would make me look like a time traveler that came from the future or something to the observer.

    *****

    You're either in one world or you're in the other.
    If you'd like to discuss the matter in your role as a future referee, you are of course quite welcome to start a thread for that purpose

    I think it will have something to do with the nature of portal so probably different portal would have different feature and the solution will depend on them. I will probably add the question to the portal thread I started about a month ago if I have more information about the nature of the portal.

    Most of this sort of thing is left very much to referee's discretion. Your rulings may vary, once you're running games.

    After reading your ruling a couple of times, I feel that being a good referee is tough job considering there are a lot of factors that have to be considered before making decisions. I wonder if an AI could simulate such referee and how it will interpret the players request. That is also one of the reason that I ask why the referee choose what they choose for future references. By the way, keep up the good work.

    distance and direction
    any other characteristic of the creature sensed aside from its location

    Does it detect the center of the mass or something?
    If the prey is big enough, would Oo-hii still sense it as one point in space or multiple points in space when it exceed certain angle or something?

    Tue May 25 2010 5:02 pm #
22. 

    WilliamTWodium
    Member

    I examine the tree's sap so that I could detect it with my Detect Materials skill in the future.

    Noted.

    Space/time would reverse which would make me look like a time traveler that came from the future or something to the observer.

    Said observer possibly including the you of x-units-of-time ago? That is, do you expect two versions of you to exist (in two different places) at the same time once this skill is successful?

    Also, it sounds like you're using the rift as necessary component in the skill and that you are attempting to affect both "sides" of the rift equally. Correct me if these assumptions are wrong.

    In the context of Multiverser, I understand time travel. There's a whole appendix devoted to it. If this is a version of time travel, I can handle that. If it's not, we're still miscommunicating.

    __
    
    

    If the prey is big enough, would Oo-hii still sense it as one point in space or multiple points in space when it exceed certain angle or something?

    "No." He would sense a distance, and a direction. Neither the distance nor the direction would be so precise as to indicate a single point in space, no matter how big or small the organism happened to be. If you recall, before he attacked you he spent a little time scurrying up and down the tree - triangulating to get a better read on your position.

    Fri May 28 2010 8:01 am #
23. 

    Max
    Member

    Noted.

    Do I have to add anything to my character sheet as well such as "alien world tree sap" or something?

    Said observer possibly including the you of x-units-of-time ago? That is, do you expect two versions of you to exist (in two different places) at the same time once this skill is successful?

    The observer does not include Morach's spirit x-units-of-time ago but will include Morach's body because Morach's body is not at the rift location when the skill is initiated. This would mean only one version of Morach will exist in which the spirit form will be at the rift position and the body would be at the location of x-units-of-time ago.

    Also, it sounds like you're using the rift as necessary component in the skill and that you are attempting to affect both "sides" of the rift equally. Correct me if these assumptions are wrong.

    Yes, that is right.

    If this is a version of time travel, I can handle that. If it's not, we're still miscommunicating.

    It would probably qualify as a version of time travel. From Morach point of view, the space seems to reverse itself excluding the one that is currently at the rift position at the moment the skill is initiated.

    *****

    He would sense a distance, and a direction. Neither the distance nor the direction would be so precise as to indicate a single point in space, no matter how big or small the organism happened to be.

    Interesting. So the sense would probably have some kind of accuracy range which would probably depend on current situation.

    Fri May 28 2010 11:33 am #
24. 

    WilliamTWodium
    Member

    The observer does not include Morach's spirit x-units-of-time ago but will include Morach's body because Morach's body is not at the rift location when the skill is initiated. This would mean only one version of Morach will exist in which the spirit form will be at the rift position and the body would be at the location of x-units-of-time ago.

    Huh.

    So, suppose x-units-of-time ago Ooh-hii was on his tree, sensing your presence; when you did WIIYD ("whatever-it-is-you're-doing"), you're saying that to Oo-hii, you would appear to have teleported? Your "old" spirit form would vanish, for no apparent reason, and the you-who-used-the-skill would appear inside the rift?

    I'm having difficulty understanding why that would happen.

    Sat May 29 2010 8:15 pm #
25. 

    Max
    Member

    So, suppose x-units-of-time ago Ooh-hii was on his tree, sensing your presence; when you did WIIYD ("whatever-it-is-you're-doing"), you're saying that to Oo-hii, you would appear to have teleported? Your "old" spirit form would vanish, for no apparent reason, and the you-who-used-the-skill would appear inside the rift?

    Yes, that would happen. The reason would not be apparent for the observer but would be apparent for Morach. Also Morach is still in hyper-accelerated state which means that he could get back in his previous position if he need to.

    I'm having difficulty understanding why that would happen.

    That is because the things at the rift position when the skill is initiated will keep their causality but the others causality will be absorbed by the rift. That would mean that Morach's spirit will not be at his previous position but at current position which is the rift. The rift stability will probably collapse if the rift try to absorb causality that caused it which is why the maximum unit that could be absorbed by the rift is only up to when the rift first existed. This would mean that if the skill succeeds, there are probability that the rift destabilizes then closes.

    Sat May 29 2010 10:31 pm #
26. 

    WilliamTWodium
    Member

    I will concentrate for four apparent minutes then try to make the rift reverse the space/time around it by making it absorb causality.

    Four minutes later, you are no closer to discovering a way to cause the rift to absorb causality than when you began. You're attempting to wrap your mind around two universes' worth of cause and effect, and it's a daunting task; you're not sure if you're even capable of it at present.

    ____

    Maxx answered my post here in the affirmative, so after a bit of research I'm ready to roll. The dice come up 08, which is failure.

    Do I have to add anything to my character sheet as well such as "alien world tree sap" or something?

    Sure, why not? I'll put it down in the list of materials (included in the listing for the skill) as "W1b blacktree sap," where W1b stands for World One, Subworld B (that is, the location on the 'other side' of the rift, with point of verse-in located in Subworld A).

    Fifteen apparent minutes have elapsed. Morach might know that number, approximately, but he certainly does not know the apparent time remaining to him.

    Mon May 31 2010 6:51 am #
27. 

    Max
    Member

    You're attempting to wrap your mind around two universes' worth of cause and effect, and it's a daunting task; you're not sure if you're even capable of it at present.

    I am sure that I do not have that kind of energy. However, by altering the properties of the rift which connects two worlds (which makes the rift my only target), this could be done by making the rift do all the work. The causality absorbed will be recycled to absorb more causality. This is like how my Time Stop works which actually targets self for hyper-acceleration. The ripple of causality absorption also does not have to include all part of the universe to work, it just targets the area surrounding rift. This ripple of causality absorption will reverse the verses gradually according to the speed that it propagates which must be faster than any material of related universe. A rift have the ability to connect two space together which would make travel faster than light possible. This rift property is used to make the ripple of causality absorption possible.

    *****

    The dice come up 08, which is failure.

    Did you calculate Morach targeting all part of related universes or do you calculate Morach as targeting only the rift for that roll?
    If Morach is only targeting the rift, would that roll succeed?

    If for example Morach targets two universes, would the skill be penalized at -210 for that attempt?

    Mon May 31 2010 3:28 pm #
28. 

    WilliamTWodium
    Member

    In which case, it's the prospect of making such a complex process happen automatically which daunts you. You're stumped as to how you might make such a chain reaction begin, much less how to ensure that it will continue and remain stable.

    _____
    If you were targeting the rift, that would actually add another layer of complexity, because you would in essence be attempting to create a device which would, itself, target two universes. I assumed you were using the rift as a focus for your own powers, which is far simpler than attempting to transform an interdimensional portal into a freestanding phenomenon which, left to itself, will undo everything everywhere.

    The effects you want (which require at least ten* separate bias listings, for -45) are all targeted or area effects, and none of them are universe-spanning at baseline. There is no question of whether you could have succeeded; the was only the question of whether or not it was possible for you to avoid a botch. It turns out there was, and you were lucky enough to roll low enough to merely fail. I did the math one way, and the chance to botch came to 43%; done another way, the chance was closer to 70%. I was leaning toward the latter, but the low die roll spared from having to decide.

    If you like, I can do the math on a skill which creates ten devices at once (each of which targets two universes when activated), but I'm not sure the numbers will come out any more favorable. I was under the impression that I was being merciful by doing any math at all.

    I applaud your ingenuity, and I assure you this idea is possible. However, game balance dictates that it simply cannot be that easy.

    (* Here they are:
    P8@2 Block Memories (with a -50 sit-mod for actual erasure)
    P11@10 Perceive Pasts
    P14@2 Curatives
    P14@2 Energy controls
    P14@4 Age Variation
    P14@5 Cause Movement
    P14@6 Reshape Objects
    P14@7 Transmute Matter
    P14@8 Alter Weather
    P14@10 Reanimation)

    Mon May 31 2010 8:31 pm #
29. 

    Max
    Member

    You're stumped as to how you might make such a chain reaction begin

    Probably a movement that exceed the speed of light such as trying to spin the rift around (beings that would be protected from causality absorption) at such speed.

    much less how to ensure that it will continue and remain stable.

    That is the main problem which means that there is a high probability that the rift will destabilize and closes. The ripple of causality absorption will also destabilizes at certain point which would mean that the point further than that would not be reversed. Thus the ripple of causality absorption will depend on the stability of the rift itself. So, as long as the rift is stable, the ripple of causality absorption will expand.

    Would the skill botch instead?

    *****

    attempting to transform an interdimensional portal into a freestanding phenomenon which, left to itself, will undo everything everywhere.

    Except the beings at the rift position. It will also have the limit that it can only undo things up to the point of the rift creation.

    The effects you want (which require at least ten* separate bias listings, for -45) are all targeted or area effects, and none of them are universe-spanning at baseline.

    I think it will probably use every bias listing possible. If that is the case, the skill should be a botch instead right?
    Is there a reason why you do not use Alter Reality bias for the skill?
    Is Alter Reality biased out or something?

    If you like, I can do the math on a skill which creates ten devices at once (each of which targets two universes when activated), but I'm not sure the numbers will come out any more favorable. I was under the impression that I was being merciful by doing any math at all.

    I think if you calculate it, you will probably find that the skill will botch because the skill may create more than 10 effects at once if you do not group it as altering reality. I would be grateful if you would do the calculation for future references.

    I applaud your ingenuity, and I assure you this idea is possible.

    I think I have seen similar ideas before but anyways thank you for believing that it is possible.

    However, game balance dictates that it simply cannot be that easy.

    I think that would depend on the bias such as trying to hyper-accelerate in a world with possible Haste bias listing but impossible Time Stop bias listing would make a Haste skill that matches the Time Stop skill (that uses hyper-acceleration) be much harder but not impossible. If the botch percentage is 100% or over, would you rule the skill as impossible or do you still roll for the skill?

    Mon May 31 2010 11:59 pm #
30. 

    WilliamTWodium
    Member

    
    

    I think it will probably use every bias listing possible. If that is the case, the skill should be a botch instead right?
    Is there a reason why you do not use Alter Reality bias for the skill?
    Is Alter Reality biased out or something?

    There is no single listing for Alter Reality; the entire fourteenth bias level is dedicated to Alter Reality skills (marked with an A in the rule book) and Temporal Manipulatives (marked with a T). Psionics differs from magic in how it deals with reality alteration. With magic, there is a listing for Do Anything; it's M15@10. Magic makes provisions for supernatural entities stepping in and simply changing the nature of the world to suit their whim, like the wish-granting genies from Arabian Nights. By contrast, psionics conceives of 14@ alter realities as skills which cause the state of the world to conform to the imagination of the skilled user. You take what is, and by force of will you cause it to become what you wish it to be. Thus, there is no P14@10 Do Anything; you pick out what you're attempting to do from the (very broad) Alter Reality listings and create a skill for doing that type of thing.

    To do this psionically, there needs to be an intelligence guiding every change. Some sentience or quasi-sentience must first know, intimately, the nature of the past leading up to the present moment; and second, it must then cure every creature wounded, resurrect every creature killed, relocate every object moved, reallocate all transferred energy, reverse all decay and degradation, etc. - and finally it must erase the memories from all minds of all the events and actions it has undone. This cannot be done automatically or by fiat: because it is psionic, there must be awareness and conscious (or subconscious) control.

    I said "or quasi-sentience" because it is possible that you could design a device that would perform some of this work for you. The only psionic devices covered in the rulebook are physical objects crafted from psychoactive materials, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the rift could not be transformed into such a device (possibly through the use of P15@ creation variants coupled with P9@ device crafting skills). That's just deferring the problem, though, because ultimately the device would have to be able to perform the tasks described above - reversing events "by hand," so to speak.

    To be clear, what you are attempting is vastly different from time travel. This is a monumental undertaking. Time travel involves temporally displacing one entity (or a small collection of things or entities), with the result that in the subjective perceptions of the travelers the world appears to have reverted to a prior state of being. You are attempting to actually cause the world to revert to a prior state of being. There is not a bias listing in existence which will make that a simple task, achievable by a lone psionicist in under five minutes.

    There are distinct advantages to your approach, of course - no risk of temporal anomalies being chief among those advantages - but ease of execution is not among them. By the way, if you ever got this to work, you would still have to contend with the psionic defenses and ordinary willpower checks for all affected sentient creatures. (The whole skill would not be prevented by a successful resister; the world would change around the resisting creature. I would probably also allow that a creature could be affected by some some aspects of the skill but resist others.

    If the botch percentage is 100% or over, would you rule the skill as impossible or do you still roll for the skill?

    At the table, I would ask you to roll, but no matter what the dice came up it would be a botch. On the forum, I would skip the roll and go straight to the botch table

    Heh, with an unlimited amount of time I would be tempted to put together a botch list one hundred options long, arranged in ascending order of horridness, and allow the skill roll to determine which botch the player inflicted on himself. Unfortunately, my time is rarely unlimited.

    If the skill were actually impossible - that is, no amount of help could possibly allow you to succeed, whether or not you were capable of succeeding this time (as for example when a skill is curved out) - then there would be no roll and there would be no botch. You can't screw up something you can't attempt.

    I think if you calculate it, you will probably find that the skill will botch because the skill may create more than 10 effects at once if you do not group it as altering reality. I would be grateful if you would do the calculation for future references.

    Apologies, but I'll address this in the next post; I'm turning my attention elsewhere for the moment. I'm posting what I have so far because my internet connection is not guaranteed to remain adequate.

    Tue Jun 1 2010 3:50 am #
31. 

    M. J. Young
    Moderator

    A rift have the ability to connect two space together which would make travel faster than light possible.

    That's misstated. A rift has the ability to connect two points in space together such that faster than light travel appears possible, but it does not involve any object traveling faster than light.

    Let's suppose we have a rift that connects a point on the surface of the Earth to a point on the surface of Mars. Someone stepping into the portal on Earth emerges on Mars. That's probably several light minutes distance (depending on their relative positions in their orbits at the moment), and so you perceive that the traveler moved from Earth to Mars instantly, and you conclude that he traveled faster than light because to move that distance in that time one would have to travel faster than light.

    That, though, is not how the rift works. The rift does not move you instantly from one side of the rift to the other. Rather, it connects two points in space. At the location of the rift, there is zero distance between the Earth side of the portal and the Mars side of the portal. Thus someone stepping through the rift does not move at light speed from one end to the other, but simply travels the distance of that single step, which is as far apart as those two points are through the rift.

    So it isn't about speed; it's about a spatial distortion that causes to locations to be adjacent to each other at one point in a way that is inconsistent with the rest of space.

    And Scott is correct to treat an alter reality as affecting only one aspect of reality. Thus he could treat this as individual skills or as individual applications of the alter reality, but he still has to define what those individual aspects are and it probably doesn't help your math any to make them all that skill.

    --M. J. Young

    Tue Jun 1 2010 6:35 am #
32. 

    Max
    Member

    P14@2 Curatives
    P14@10 Reanimation

    The above effects are the top priorities for the skill.

    There is no single listing for Alter Reality; the entire fourteenth bias level is dedicated to Alter Reality skills (marked with an A in the rule book) and Temporal Manipulatives (marked with a T).

    Interesting. What is the Temporal Manipulatives that is associated with normal time travel?

    Some sentience or quasi-sentience must first know, intimately, the nature of the past leading up to the present moment

    The light from a second ago could view from a position is a light second away. The rift then would take this information to recreate the same effects. This would probably add remote sense to the prerequisite of the skill.

    cure every creature wounded, resurrect every creature killed, relocate every object moved, reallocate all transferred energy, reverse all decay and degradation, etc. - and finally it must erase the memories from all minds of all the events and actions it has undone.

    It might also have to create energy or light from the explosion if the space is reversed at the time of explosion, create force field if the space is reversed before the explosion, read minds to see what each creature thinks first to know what to block, suggestion to suggest what each creature should think during that time, telepathy for the telepathy connection between Morach's parents, mental protection for Oo-hii, and I could go on but for now that is the effect that I think would probably have to be added to the rift causality absorption. If this skill affects all parts of the universe, the skill would have to recreate the event of each parts of the universe and it may evolve itself accordingly. This would add additional alter psi ability to the rift to accommodate the change that might happen. It might also have to learn the ability to stop time (or hyper-accelerate) then try to pierce (or make a back door connection through) mental defenses or will power by trying countless times (with slightly different technique each time) to achieve that purpose.

    The only psionic devices covered in the rulebook are physical objects crafted from psychoactive materials, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the rift could not be transformed into such a device (possibly through the use of P15@ creation variants coupled with P9@ device crafting skills).

    How much time is needed to build an automatic activation device that does all that with reliable rate of success?
    That also adds to the penalty of the skill right?
    How much is the skill penalized for that?

    To be clear, what you are attempting is vastly different from time travel.

    That is why I did not say that Morach attempt time travel in the first place but only said that it look like time travel. I also am not sure if the skill would qualify as time travel which is why I said "probably".

    Time travel involves temporally displacing one entity (or a small collection of things or entities), with the result that in the subjective perceptions of the travelers the world appears to have reverted to a prior state of being.

    I have to try that some time if I understand the nature of time of that particular world and deem "travel" to any particular point of time in that particular world to be possible. I may have to experiment on that soon such as creating light x minutes ago for example (which probably what cause the explosion). I also wonder what would happen if I have a telepathy connection to myself in the past (which probably what cause the delusion). Changing the past would probably be a really bad idea but if I can anticipate my action in the future then I probably can communicate with myself in the past without producing any anomalies provided that I anticipate it correctly.

    Heh, with an unlimited amount of time I would be tempted to put together a botch list one hundred options long, arranged in ascending order of horridness

    That is a good idea. You could use the below formula to choose from your botch table:
    Botch chosen = Round up[(Roll)*(Number of botch)/100]

    Apologies, but I'll address this in the next post; I'm turning my attention elsewhere for the moment.

    Do not worry about it. Take your time.

    *****

    A rift has the ability to connect two points in space together such that faster than light travel appears possible, but it does not involve any object traveling faster than light.

    Yes, that would probably be the correct term for it but I could be wrong.

    At the location of the rift, there is zero distance between the Earth side of the portal and the Mars side of the portal.

    Could you be absolutely sure that any rift does not accelerate the being to the other side of the rift faster than the speed of light when that being pass through the rift?
    How would you came to that conclusion?

    So it isn't about speed; it's about a spatial distortion that causes to locations to be adjacent to each other at one point in a way that is inconsistent with the rest of space.

    What should I call the travel then?
    Should I call it "Arrive faster than light on non-distorted space travel" or something?

    Thus he could treat this as individual skills or as individual applications of the alter reality, but he still has to define what those individual aspects are and it probably doesn't help your math any to make them all that skill.

    So the individual aspects of the skill would probably depend on the past and would work according to the past. If for example the skill only works by reversing space a nanosecond, then there would probably be less things to cover.

    Tue Jun 1 2010 9:13 pm #
33. 

    M. J. Young
    Moderator

    First I want to note that I cross-posted with Scott this morning, as improbable as it appears. I hope that did not create any confusion.

    What is the Temporal Manipulatives that is associated with normal time travel?

    This is an inappropriate question for a player to ask in a game thread. The character is forbidden under the rules to ask questions in terms of game mechanics, and the player is supposed to get most of his information about reality through the character; the player's knowledge of game mechanics is only a convenience for his understanding of the reality the character experiences directly (e.g., that a P4@10 Telekinetic Flight is a more difficult and less reliable skill than a P4@1 Telekinetic Pulse) and for communication about the character's actions and circumstances. This question, though, seems to be asking, "What can I do and what skill listings in the book cover what I can do?" The answer is that you really can do anything, some things are harder than others, and the degree to which skills are discriminated or generalized is not really part of character knowledge and thus only discoverable by players through character experimentation.

    Suffice it that there are six skill listings specifically marked as time manipulatives and one skill in level 14 that is not marked because it could be considered both an alteration and a time manipulative, and that it doesn't really matter how it's marked since such markings are primarily to help the referee find listings in the book, and don't define or limit the nature of the skill otherwise.

    How much time is needed to build an automatic activation device that does all that with reliable rate of success?

    How would you know? That's the appropriate answer for a referee to give to that sort of question from a player in a game setting. As for the answer that you would get as one referee to another, I'd have to give it a lot of thought and consideration and do a bit of research and number crunching, and advise you that the time it takes is directly proportional to the chance it would succeed--that is, you might be able to create a psionic device in six seconds, but it's more likely to work if you take six days.

    Could you be absolutely sure that any rift does not accelerate the being to the other side of the rift faster than the speed of light when that being pass through the rift?
    How would you came to that conclusion?

    My answer to the first question is no, I can imagine something that resembled a "rift" actually being a faster than light transport conduit within which the laws of relativity do not apply. My answer to the second question is a matter of fiat and default: if I state that there is a "rift", it follows the default definition of a "rift" unless I have already decided it is something that is not a rift but looks like it. As to your present in-game situation, I am 99% certain that your "rift" connects to another universe (not, e.g., to another planet in this universe), and thus that it is nonsense to speak of how fast you have to travel to reach that other universe. You have to walk out the back of the wardrobe, or fall into the painting, or get yanked off the railway platform, or jump into the appropriate pond; Narnia is only a few steps away while the portal is open. When the portal is closed, it would be a low estimate of distance to say that it was "infinite". You truly can't get there from here, no matter how fast nor how far you traveled.

    So the question of whether a rift could be an acceleration tube is entirely theoretical: we know that this one is not.

    What should I call the travel then?
    Should I call it "Arrive faster than light on non-distorted space travel" or something?

    We usually just call it "passing through the portal" or something like that. Or if you mean what you should call the version of faster than light travel you've imagined, I suppose you can give it any name that won't be confused with something else--non-relativity travel, FTL Tube Travel.

    If for example the skill only works by reversing space a nanosecond, then there would probably be less things to cover.

    Too many variables for me to address that, really. I would probably handle it by using relative success for how long the skill could be maintained and then have the baseline skill reverse causality at one second per second, and tie the area affected to the relative success rate. A reasonable suggestion would be that you can reverse causality in a field one thousand cubic feet in volume for RS minutes, and then if you double the volume you halve the duration (2000 cubic feet for RS/2 minutes, 4000 cubic feet for RS/4 minutes). The volume of two universes is probably prohibitive. I don't know that I would penalize for allowing you to define the volume of the affected space, though, so you could in theory develop the skill using a much smaller volume and as you improve increase the volume.

    Also, while I'm thinking of it, I would certainly penalize for doubling the speed at which "time" plays backwards, but I would also penalize for halving it, since having run at other than normal speed would be the basis for the penalty.

    --M. J. Young

    Tue Jun 1 2010 11:59 pm #
34. 

    Max
    Member

    This is an inappropriate question for a player to ask in a game thread.
    Suffice it that there are six skill listings specifically marked as time manipulatives and one skill in level 14 that is not marked because it could be considered both an alteration and a time manipulative

    I just ask out of curiosity but fortunately you already answered the question anyway.

    How would you know? That's the appropriate answer for a referee to give to that sort of question from a player in a game setting.

    The answer do not have to be told to me but the calculation would need to use those numbers.

    "passing through the portal"
    non-relativity travel, FTL Tube Travel.

    Thank you for the terms.

    I would probably handle it by using relative success for how long the skill could be maintained and then have the baseline skill reverse causality at one second per second, and tie the area affected to the relative success rate. A reasonable suggestion would be that you can reverse causality in a field one thousand cubic feet in volume for RS minutes, and then if you double the volume you halve the duration (2000 cubic feet for RS/2 minutes, 4000 cubic feet for RS/4 minutes).
    Six miles diamater meaningfully impacted.

    1 mile = 5280 feet
    3 miles = 15840 feet
    V=(4/3)*pi*r^3
    Two universes so,
    V=2*(4/3)*pi*15840^3
    V=254358061056000*pi cubic feet = 799089415994874 cubic feet
    1000*(2^x)=799089415994874
    x=ln(799089415994874/1000)/ln 2
    x=39.5 so take x=40
    1099511627776000 cubic feet for RS/1099511627776 minutes
    If RS=8, "time" plays backward at 60/137438953472 seconds = 15/8589934592 seconds
    Light movement when space is reversed = 0.52 meter [approximate value]
    Since the above would only play at a fraction of a time, Morach would probably not notice the effect even if the skill succeeds.

    Wed Jun 2 2010 1:32 am #
35. 

    WilliamTWodium
    Member

    You attempt to cause the causality of the surroundings to be absorbed by the rift, but you appear instead to have transmuted the matter in your surroundings. Approximately one molecule out of every three has been transformed into a particular volatile substance, and another molecule out of every three has become another volatile substance which does not play well with the first one.

    Everything in your immediate area has turned gray and glittery, but nothing appears to be exploding - yet.

    ____
    You've convinced me. I'll draw up a botch table.

    1. Travel back in time
    2. Close rift
    3. Brain burn
    4. Neural breakdown
    5. Explosion
    6. Psionic shockwave
    7. Travel forward in time
    8. No apparent effect

    And the roll is 5, another lovely and talented explosion. I rolled the GEs for damage and area, but I'll wait to reveal them until the explosion actually happens. Explosions are quick, but they're not over in milliseconds; he won't be able to observe the explosion until his time stop expires.

    Sun Jun 6 2010 10:16 pm #
36. 

    Max
    Member

    Everything in your immediate area has turned gray and glittery, but nothing appears to be exploding - yet.

    That seems to be the prequel of an explosion. It looks like if my hyper-acceleration expire, an explosion might occur.

    That gives me an idea. Why not I use this new explosion potential energy and the rift to send me back into the past. If I can convert one equivalent unit of the explosion potential energy to travel back 1 second in time, I wonder how how far back into the past I will travel. I will concentrate for two apparent minutes then try to displace my soul temporally to the past by using the potential energy of the explosion as a fuel and the rift as the transporter. That means that both the explosion and the rift are the components for the skill but you can rule otherwise.

    *****

    You've convinced me. I'll draw up a botch table.

    Have you seen other 100% botch skill before?

    I rolled the GEs for damage and area, but I'll wait to reveal them until the explosion actually happens.

    An interesting botch situation. I also wonder what would happen if the new skill succeeded. One equivalent unit of explosion might depend on the skill roll (which will probably affect the conversion rate), and GEs for damage and area (which will probably be multiplied to calculate the potential energy).

    Sun Jun 6 2010 11:31 pm #
37. 

    WilliamTWodium
    Member

    Right now it's all chemical energy. Nothing has started exploding yet, and by the time it starts you won't be hyper-accelerated anymore. You would need to remain hyper-accelerated for probably at least an hour before you could manipulate this explosion as it happens.

    Are you attempting to preemptively transmute the volatile matter into inert matter as part of your time-travel skill?

    Mon Jun 7 2010 12:02 am #
38. 

    Max
    Member

    Right now it's all chemical energy.

    I will use that as the energy source.

    Are you attempting to preemptively transmute the volatile matter into inert matter as part of your time-travel skill?

    I think not. I will use it as fuel in its current form. If I try to make it into inert matter then I will be spending energy instead of using it.

    Mon Jun 7 2010 2:21 pm #
39. 

    WilliamTWodium
    Member

    I see I have been unclear. For convenience and ease of reference, I've quoted the following from Wikipedia:

    Chemical energy is the potential of a chemical substance to undergo a transformation through a chemical reaction or to transform other chemical substances. Breaking or making of chemical bonds involves energy, which may be either absorbed or evolved from a chemical system.

    If you are "using" the chemical energy here in any meaningful way, the volatile substances must be chemically different when you're finished.

    This presents you with a problem, namely that you are currently hyper accelerated and the matter around you is not. In order to access the potential energy of this impending explosion, you must either

    1) Wait for the explosion to begin and harness the kinetic/thermal/whatever energy as it is released,
    or
    2) Alter the chemicals yourself such that (a) they end up in a state of lower potential energy, and (b) you have control of the energy which is no longer bound up as chemical energy.

    Approach number 1 involves allowing the hyper-acceleration to expire, giving you exactly one shot at diminishing the explosion and traveling back in time. Approach number 2 involves attempting to cause matter to change while said matter is aging one second per apparent day.

    Which of these more closely resembles your intent? Or, is there a third alternative I'm not considering?

    Tue Jun 8 2010 4:55 am #
40. 

    Max
    Member

    Approach number 1 involves allowing the hyper-acceleration to expire, giving you exactly one shot at diminishing the explosion and traveling back in time.

    Which is not what I intent.

    Approach number 2 involves attempting to cause matter to change while said matter is aging one second per apparent day.

    Which would not work as well because the matter would need to be accelerated which need me to spend more energy to alter them.

    Or, is there a third alternative I'm not considering?

    Temporal displacement will probably allow the explosion potential energy to "blast into the past". Instead of the blast of energy going to the future, the blast will go into the past because the future might not exist for the blast to happen in the first place. This blast energy will probably enable me to rewrite history by displacing time instead of space.

    *****

    I think the explosion potential energy would not be converted into inert matter at least. The potential energy might be used by exotic matter (or the rift) which could help to displace Morach's spirit into the past. This exotic matter could be called the causality chain which probably would have a maximum elasticity in which it will snap when all the potential energy have been used. When time still does not stabilize when the snap happens, the snap will probably cause a temporal loop. This is of course just a theory and probably does not reflect the nature of time of Morach's universe.

    Tue Jun 8 2010 2:30 pm #
41. 

    WilliamTWodium
    Member

    I am going to attempt to convey my confusion by paraphrasing this conversation as I perceive it. One change: I have substituted potential kinetic energy (a ball on top of a very tall hill) for chemical potential energy.

    . . . . . . . . . . . .

    Me: You have accidentally placed a very heavy ball on the top of a tall hill. Very soon it will start rolling down, possibly flattening something.

    Maxx: I will attempt to use the ball's potential energy to travel back in time.

    Me: The ball's potential energy comes from the fact that it is very high. Will the ball end up at the bottom of the hill once you do this?

    Maxx: No, I will use its height as the energy source. If I moved the ball to the bottom of the hill, that would be spending more energy.

    Me: Uh, but if the ball stays at the top of the hill, how are you "using" its potential kinetic energy at all?

    Maxx: The ball's height will move into the past, because there might not be a future.

    Me: ??

    . . . . . . . . . . . .

    This is the only way I could think of to express my confusion. Help?

    Thu Jun 10 2010 7:08 am #
42. 

    Max
    Member

    Me: The ball's potential energy comes from the fact that it is very high. Will the ball end up at the bottom of the hill once you do this?

    Yes, but not to that side of hill (the future), it will be rolling on the other side (the past). This would mean that the potential energy will of course turn into something else during the travel to the past but I am not sure what it will turn into but I think it will probably turn into causal chain elasticity potential energy.

    Me: Uh, but if the ball stays at the top of the hill, how are you "using" its potential kinetic energy at all?

    The ball does not stay at the top of the hill, it will roll down the hill to the other side (the past). That analogy might not completely clear the confusion because the situation depends on temporal displacement. You could also imagine that the future is the top of hill and the bottom is the past. You could probably substitute the rift as a very elastic ball which will bounce back to the future or the top of the hill.

    This is the only way I could think of to express my confusion. Help?

    If the above still does not help, try to imagine that the explosion happens normally but the other space is reversed instead. Imagine also that this explosion happens at temporal dimension and not in normal space. Imagine again that the rift is have been using this energy to displace Morach's spirit into the past. This energy would probably could not remain in temporal dimension thus converted to some other form such as elastic energy of causal chain. This however is just an illustration and might not represent the true events. If that still does not help then the mass of explosion itself could be converted into energy through the formula E=mc^2.

    Thu Jun 10 2010 4:09 pm #
43. 

    WilliamTWodium
    Member

    Let's try this. Assume you succeed, and further assume that you successfully avoid temporal anomalies. Once in the past, you go elsewhere, and do not interfere with events in this area.

    Describe what you expect this area around the rift to look like two seconds after the point from which you traveled.

    Fri Jun 11 2010 4:09 am #
44. 

    Max
    Member

    Describe what you expect this area around the rift to look like two seconds after the point from which you traveled.

    There are some assumptions of what will happen.

    The first assumption is the explosive mass will travel with me to the past which will then be an inert mass when I arrived in the past. This will mean that the area around the rift after the point of departure will be some sort of vacuum. The inert mass could arrive simultaneously (more energy needed) or gradually (less energy needed) as time moves to the future. I would think it would arrive simultaneously because temporal dimension would not keep any mass within it unless the temporal dimension would leak the inert mass as I rewrite history.

    The second assumption is the explosive mass will use the temporal dimension to change into inert mass while I travel to the past but this inert mass would not be transported to the past thus will be bounce back to the future. This will mean that the area around the rift after the point of departure will be turned into inert mass. My intention for the skill is to displace only me into the past so I think this would be the correct assumption.

    Fri Jun 11 2010 12:00 pm #
45. 

    M. J. Young
    Moderator

    Scott, if I'm reading him aright, it sounds to me like he wants to use the chemical energy like rocket fuel to power his temporal journey to the past, but power it remotely such that the energy is all directed into the time travel trip but the waste product remains in its location in what will then be the future.

    I think he would need to pull off some kind of P7@8 Redefine energy, or possibly a P7@9 Store Energy with redefine and redirect components incorporated. What I find more difficult is the notion of using the energy for time travel, since psionic time travel doesn't use much energy at all and he is not attempting technological time travel.

    But that's just me thinking aloud as I try to wrap my head around what he's trying to do.

    --M. J. Young

    Fri Jun 11 2010 11:54 pm #

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