OK, so we've got this verser, alright. Spent a long time in the verse, been around the block a few times. Super charismatic, general of a huge army; so he's taken advantage of the high bias here to find a way to form a complex personal relationship with each and every one of his soldiers, and they would follow him beyond the grave if it were possible -- he verses out, and 90% of his one hundred million of his men are his followers, so now he's in the verse with a ninety million man army. Alright, so he's a little suprised by this, but he makes the most of his situation and forms the Multiforce or what have you, travels around fighting the good fight, coming across other versers and telling them "join us or die"; few versers could take on an army of ninety million, and even if they're killed, they're the general's followers, so they'll just verse out and wait for him. Soldiers who don't age or fear death, a charismatic, fair general, this seems like a good plot device to throw a character into.
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(1037 posts) (14 voices)-
Jhiaxus
MemberI would say any supergroup like that is bound to break up as people evolve, they see the verser FORCING others to join. No Jhiaxus would do that, now he would spread his word about such a group, train people and if they wanted to come with him. He values personal freedom too highly to every force someone to do something like that. It takes a lot for him to violate someone who is evil's personal freedom, but it has happened at least once. Jhiaxus 2 has just such a problem, he knows the Nazi's are looking to conquer the Multiverse, and is doing what he can to organize a resistance.
Thu Oct 7 2010 12:32 pm # -
JohnA1nut
MemberHere's one for you. Do players ever find gear left behind by other versers? It would still have a scriff sense to it, right? So, the player verses out, finds all of his stuff, but there's another unexplained scriff sense. And he follows it and digs up something left behind by another verser who had previously been to that world. Maybe disowned, outside their weight limit, etc. That would be an interesting way to equip a player for the world.
(Doing Therapy)
Thu Oct 7 2010 5:57 pm # -
Regarding peppers, I don't care for the flavor. Regarding hot peppers, I don't care for the flavor, but I am also aware that that "hot" taste is the sensation of your taste buds dying from the assault of caustic chemicals in the peppers.
I note that you, John, are a heavy smoker. People who smoke dull their taste buds and so cannot enjoy subtle flavors, and are more likely to be drawn to strong flavors because they can taste them. I savor the taste of vanilla extract in a chocolate milkshake, of butterscotch in a chocolate malted milkshake. I'll add cinnamon and sugar to chili or stir fry. But I rarely eat hot foods; I like having taste buds.
he's taken advantage of the high bias here to find a way to form a complex personal relationship with each and every one of his soldiers....90% of his one hundred million of his men are his followers, so now he's in the verse with a ninety million man army.
While the concept is great, the application seems a bit stretched.
Let's suppose that he can manage to build those reputations by meeting with his men in groups of ten at a time. Let's suppose that he doesn't need sleep or time for rest, and he can eat while building relationships. Let's suppose that any actual fighting this army does can be done will not interfere with the time spent building these relationships. And let's suppose that in little units of perhaps ten minutes each he can accomplish this with half an hour per group.
That would require 5,000,000, that's five million, hours spent building those relationships. That's two hundred eight thousand three hundred thirty-three and a third days, which given three hundred sixty-five and a quarter days per year (we'll ignore the century variable) requires five hundred seventy years plus one hundred forty days plus twenty hours.
And be mindful that any soldier who predeceases the verser will not be an associate; he will be dead, transferred to the afterlife, whatever that involves. I think a smaller army is possible; I think my numbers were very generous as it is, so unless I made a mistake somewhere in my math--well, let's invert it. Ten men per half hour is twenty per hour, four hundred eighty per day. That's 175320 one hundred seventy-five thousand three hundred twenty per year, and if we allow that soldiers could start as young as sixteen and still be attached to the unit as old as fifty-six, that gives a forty-year spread in which to build this group, 7,012,800, an army of seven million twelve thousand eight hundred men, again if I did my math aright.
That's still impressive, and I don't think anyone other than a contingent of elder versers would stand a chance against it. But it's only ten percent of what you suggested.
And his charisma would have to be high indeed to take ninety percent of his men. Remember, for each of them he has to make a successful difficult personal attribute check (probably charisma in this case), so he has to have a 3@8 charisma because he will fail that difficult check 10% of the time--and his men each individually get will power checks. If they typically have 1@10 will powers (they are, after all, soldiers, they will make that check 30% of the time--which doesn't mean thirty percent won't come, but that thirty percent of the verser's rolls will be that score or less, and a tie goes against the associate status, so figure 30% of 30% will not go, which is 9% more. You're going to have to raise the verser's charisma to account for that--maybe a 3@9 or 3@10 would do it. Of course, you said he was highly charismatic, so maybe this fits. But you'll want to play him that way--and seriously, why does anyone with a 3@10 charisma need an army? He'd be the best grifter in the multiverse.
Do players ever find gear left behind by other versers? It would still have a scriff sense to it, right? So, the player verses out, finds all of his stuff, but there's another unexplained scriff sense. And he follows it and digs up something left behind by another verser who had previously been to that world. Maybe disowned, outside their weight limit, etc. That would be an interesting way to equip a player for the world.
Hmmm--wrong in several places.
- If a verser disowns equipment or loses it for being outside his weight limit, it no longer has any scriff sense to it. It is ordinary non-verser equipment thereafter, part of whatever world in which it was abandoned.
- The only exception to this would be contested equipment that got tossed loose somehow--that is, it sometimes happens that two versers think they own the same object, and they tie in their will power attempt to claim it, so the object is tossed randomly into the verse to be away from both of them until such time as one of them verses out again, at which time they make another will power check to see whether one of them gets it then. It would be possible for yet another verser to find such a piece of equipment on a world neither of those versers had visited, but he would then become a third party in the struggle for ownership of the object. Further--
- A verser does not sense the scriff in another verser's equipment. Nor does he sense "loose scriff". He senses scriff in his own equipment and in other versers themselves, and can distinguish the sense of his equipment from other versers, and can distinguish the sense of those versers who are his associates from all other versers, but that's the extent of the sense ability. (There is another limitation, in which the relationship/connection of the verser to the other verser limits distance. An associate can be sensed in the same universe, if I recall correctly, a verser on the same cycle within the same sub-universe, one that you've met before within maybe a hundred miles, one from your original universe less than that, one of the same species from a different universe less than that, and an alien verser previously unknown to you within maybe ten feet. Those numbers are from memory; check the chapter on Scriff rather than relying on my memory on this.)
So no, that wouldn't work.
--M. J. Young
Thu Oct 7 2010 10:49 pm # -
JohnA1nut
MemberA verser does not sense the scriff in another verser's equipment.
I didn't realize that. And there's no way around that? What if the verser who left it left it intentionally to be found by the next verser? I was just thinking that could be a really interesting plot device. Scriff sense on a piece of dropped equipment, which is the key to the whole story puzzle.
(Doing Therapy)
Fri Oct 8 2010 2:19 am # -
JohnA1nut
MemberTadeusz could take on this army. Easy peasy.
My character could too, now that I think about it. A great deal of them, anyway. At the end of TerraNova I developed a spell that turns my body into a bomb with an annihilating level blast. A last-ditch suicide weapon.
(Doing Therapy)
Fri Oct 8 2010 2:33 am # -
JohnA1nut
MemberEric, I don't think the problem is the army, the problem is being the army of versers
Yeah, and what happens when the army realizes that they are immortal and don't have to follow the leader anymore? I sure wouldn't want to be the leader if there was a rebellion!!!! How could he hope to get away from them? Whisp and Mother? How about 7 million of them?
(Doing Therapy)
Fri Oct 8 2010 2:46 am # -
JohnA1nut
MemberHere's an idea. About about a multidimensional civil war? The second in command gains 3@ whatever charisma, and gets half of the soldiers on his side. Now the two warring factions of soldiers jump around the Multiverse, on one anothers cycles, taking their war throughout the entire Multiverse. They gain associates, some of them willpower check or whatever, and leave, no longer associates, but still, millions of soldiers on two or more sides traversing the Multiverse, constantly at war? Thoughts?
(Doing Therapy)
Fri Oct 8 2010 2:52 am # -
JohnA1nut
MemberTwo
Think about this for a second. A battlefield full of heavily armed solders who are all associates of one another. War starts. A shot is fired, the guy verses to the next world. Another shot is fired, an enemy soldier verses out, and into the same world as the first. They arrive, sporadically like that on the world, to kill each other over and over and over. If they all landed in close proximity and at the same speed at which they died, they might jump through 10 or 15 worlds before they even realize it.
(Doing Therapy)
Fri Oct 8 2010 3:08 am # -
I didn't realize that. And there's no way around that? What if the verser who left it left it intentionally to be found by the next verser?
He would have to rig something that worked in that world. It would have to involve some sort of scriff detection (that's 15@ tech, but there are mag and psi ways to do it also) and some sort of signal or contingent summoning to bring him to the target object. It could be done, but not merely as a scriff sense object.
Drag an asteroid in to Earth orbit, and drop it on them. A couple hundred megatonnes of damage later, and there is a new, rather large lake where the army used to be....And the next year has snow until late July in the temperate zone, but really, what's more All-American than snowboarding on the Fourth of July? Edit: Down Wall Street that is?
Right--and I believe the stat quoted in WarGames was that no life form larger than five pounds survived. But hey, you know you're part of an elite group when you destroy entire worlds.
At the end of TerraNova I developed a spell that turns my body into a bomb with an annihilating level blast.
Off the top of your head, do you know the blast radius? It might not be large enough to take out an entire army, even though it split a spaceship.
Yeah, and what happens when the army realizes that they are immortal and don't have to follow the leader anymore? I sure wouldn't want to be the leader if there was a rebellion!!!! How could he hope to get away from them? Whisp and Mother? How about 7 million of them?
The army never "had to" follow the leader in the first place. The followed him because they wanted to follow him. If they decide they don't want to follow him, they cease to be followers and become independent versers on the same cycle--which does not mean they appear in every world, just once every ten worlds or so. They wouldn't have any animosity, because they really liked him and they probably still like him--he takes the concept of "likable guy" along with "politically savvy" and "charming" and makes Nick Caphries look like Quasimodo by comparison.
He would have to have done something really horrible to offend them that badly.
--M. J. Young
Fri Oct 8 2010 9:05 pm # -
Tadeusz
MemberWell, given how large the multiverse is, something like that has to exist. Its one of the problems the Nazi Multiverse Project has with their aim of conquering the Multiverse...they really have no conception of how enormous a project they've taken on.
And of course, we do need a Multiversal Enemy Group or two or three. MEGs.
I think the army thing you're talking about would be kind of like the cross-dimensional equivalent of a hurricane. You're living peacefully in some village, and then all of a sudden, there's two versers on either side of the village slinging high explosives and what not at each ohter with no concern for anyone else....or at least one of them has no concern.
It'd be a great way to verse out O7. Two soldiers go at it, and set a good chunk of the town on fire. O7 has to meet at least one of them because they think he's the enemey until they meet him, or even think he is after they meet him...and if that doesn't verse him out....there's a riot in a burning town.
Sat Oct 9 2010 4:28 am # -
Well, given how large the multiverse is, something like that has to exist.
You know, I think just the opposite: given how large the multiverse is, something like that couldn't exist.
The way I figure it, you've got an army of a hundred million men. That's pretty big, right? But I don't see how such an army can all be associates of one guy, so the best you've got is squads, and even then over time it degenerates into a hundred million independent versers.
So each time one is killed, he verses out, and he travels to another universe presumably at random. The number of verses is not infinite, but it's beyond the names of numbers. So a hundred million men is 10^8, if I'm counting right on my fingers. Let's make one hundred million and one men, just for convenience. If one hundred million of them versed out, and every one of them went to a different universe, that would be one each in a hundred million universes. Now the last man verses out. What are the odds that he will wind up in the same universe as any one of the other men in the army? They are one hundred million over the total number of universes. But if there are a googol of universes, that's 10^100, so that's actually 10^8/10@100, or 1/10^92, right? (You math wizards can correct me if I'm wrong.) That means you would have to roll one on a ten sided die ninety two times in a row for this man to wind up in the same universe as any one other soldier in his army--and that's not a specific one, that's any one at random.
And I think that 10^100 (a googol) is a very small estimate of how many universes there are. I think that a 1 with a googol zeroes after it is a very small estimate of how many universes there are out there. So I think the chances of two people who are not principle and associate landing in the same universe twice in a row are so infinitessimal that it is remarkable that people on the same cycle see each other every ten worlds or so--and further, extremely unlikely that any group larger than a dozen would ever be in the same universe together at the same time.
These notions of universes filled with versers in the present are so statistically improbable they're irksome. Verses are almost always individuals, rarely groups you can count on your fingers, extremely rarely teams like starship crews who have a very tight-knit family camaraderie in which every individual is as close as brother to every other individual, and they all know each other by name.
You can't really have an associate if you don't know him well individually. It doesn't matter that he wants to come with you if you don't have that intimate relationship. I think to gather an army of a hundred million associates you'd have to visit ten million worlds and pick up ten new people in each, carefully integrating them in with all you already have, and even that's stretching credibility.
--M. J. Young
Sun Oct 10 2010 4:08 am # -
JohnA1nut
MemberMJ, about have the hundred million associates. What if all of the soldiers vowed to follow their leader "To death and beyond"? I could imagine something like that drilled into the minds of soldiers. They all swore an oath to follow him "To death and beyond" not fully realizing that he meant exactly that. Or would they have to fully realize it?
(Doing Therapy)
Sun Oct 10 2010 4:27 am # -
Tadeusz
MemberMJ,
If you wanted to create such a thing as this army as the Alchemist how would you go about doing it?
There is a way to do it. You're the guy who explained why the author of Cold Equations was wrong. If you want, I can come up with one or two.
I think you're looking at this the wrong way around. Not sure why you're doing this.
There are going to be a LOT of versers in the Verse. If only one in a hundred universes through its history has one verser, that means...well, we're getting into scientific notation for number of versers...and versers are contagious. Not only do they pick up associates, but they create enemies. WAW Taduesz created two versers, and one as Tadeusz. The rabbit, the Russian trollraiser soldier from the world in which Stalin is a lich of steel, and the Vampire from Philly 2117 when he makes th emistake.
And there has to be thousands of similar attempts (okay, thousands is considerable understatement) to the Nazi Multiverse Project. So there's going to be trillions of versers. And you can get, with even a minor attractive effect, tossed into such a large mix, rather big clumps of versers. Its actually worse than that, but I don't want to go there.
But, from a story perspective, you may not want to go there. Reasonable enough. OTOH, the opposite decision is reasonable too.
And something like a gathering will probably attract versers to ones own self as scriff theoretically attracts scriff so you're probably far more likely to meet other versers than simple random distribution would suggest (and this is not counting those on your cycle.) Thats the 'scriff puddle' idea which is a good one.
Now, I'm aware you're annoyed at me for having so many other versers show up in my universes. I've put too many now that I think about it. But I think you've put too few.
The Multiverse should, IMO, have a number of NPC versers, and many of them should not be terribly extraordinary. People like Jeff the Sailor who sure is a good sailor and is superstrong and a good artist, but Whisp would clean his clock. People who visited a half dozen worlds to a dozen and have picked up a few tricks and useful items on the way.
As to my world with the thirty versers...well Bellerophon was behind the scenes manipulating things because he wanted to drag as many versers to that world as he could for his lineup to find his Enemy, the Sorceror. Add in a group of associates (the Canadian Frat Boys) who verse in, and then you get a Gathering Effect going on to boost Bellerophon's subtle magic. Toss in that Bellerophon is affecting people's minds, and that the leadership is supportiing the idea with lethal force behind them, and the whole bit of thirty versers pretending to be gods is not unbelievable (if you don't believe that, check out the pschy tests where people 'electrocute' strangers at the insistence of authority figures.)
Sun Oct 10 2010 5:01 am # -
JohnA1nut
MemberI always liked the idea of an entire planet populated by versers. Something in it (Unusually large scriff deposits, perhaps?) attracts versers. It used to be an untamed jungle, but versers arrived who fixed the place up, and it because a verser's trading post. Populated entirely by versers. If you're lucky enough to land there, you can get equipment from all across the Multiverse. And there will be someone who will trade. You've got a flintlock with a busted spring? There's someone there who is sick of his Mark 15 neutrino blaster being biased out, and will gladly trade you for the flintlock. A verser's flea market kind of world.
(Doing Therapy)
Sun Oct 10 2010 5:52 am # -
O.K., Eric, I know how I would do it--but I think in all honesty not even the Architect knows what needs to be known.
However, the Kraal had built an army that traveled many universes trying to conquer planets. It's what ultimately destroyed the Kraal (although they aren't actually dead, they're just disabled to the point that they're unrecognizable for what they were).
- Every soldier would have to have reached level 6, because it will be necessary for them to be able to retain consciousness in the scriff. I've never had a player character reach this level in play, but I'd wager that the elder versers have done so by now, and probably Tadeusz and a few others.
- Every soldier would have to have learned skills in multiple bias areas that enable him to control movement through the scriff, so he can target his destination. I've never had a player character develop such a skill in any bias area, although it's part of Whisp's backstory that someone working for the Dar Koni Merc Project developed a scriff transport device that would carry people into other universes. (They frequently got stranded.)
- The Architect would have befriended them in many different universes, and told them to rendezvous in the one universe from which this is possible. Of course, the Architect is rather a loner, never having even picked up a wife (although he has looked a few times).
- The rendezvous point is a universe many versers have visited in which there is a device not one of them has ever recognized that is perfect for the purpose of sending large numbers of verses to targeted universes together. However, the device is well protected and difficult to operate, so it might take some effort to get control of it.
So the whole thing is pretty tricky, but yes, I can see an nearly impossible way to accomplish it.
--M. J. Young
Sun Oct 10 2010 10:49 pm # -
Tadeusz
MemberNow moving on, there is the question of 'how do we use this?'?
Considering that most versers, even experienced ones, would be overwhelmed by one of these soldiers, let alone a whole army of them....
I'd suggest one of two ways....
In D&D, your first level character 'meets' a dragon. But not really. He sure can't fight the beast. And if the creature decides to use the character as lunch, again, problems. No, the 1st level character is riding his horse down the road, and far overhead, a dragon flies on its way to something totally unrelated to the character. Our hero's horse, spooked by dragonfear bolts, and the hero has to keep from falling off.
The other way...
Our hero is in a tavern, and hears from a bard of the giant war going on in the big country on the other side of the orc infested mountain range. It does not directly effect him, but its adds some back story, and perhaps motivates a few actions in the spotlight of the campaign.Its kinda like seeing a blue whale breach in the distance. Lets you know that there are huge things going on Out There.
Mon Oct 11 2010 2:58 am # -
JohnA1nut
MemberTwo
I tried taking out botches, but could you cast a spell to soften them? So that no botch could ever be harmful, or, at the very least, so that it would only harm the person who botched? MJ was talking about a verser world, that a botch would wipe them out quickly. I'm just trying to think about a way around that.
(Doing Therapy)
Mon Oct 11 2010 4:28 am # -
I tried taking out botches, but could you cast a spell to soften them? So that no botch could ever be harmful, or, at the very least, so that it would only harm the person who botched? MJ was talking about a verser world, that a botch would wipe them out quickly. I'm just trying to think about a way around that.
You can't because "botch" is really two different things, depending on which level you're on.
That is, from the character perspective, botch means, "I just made a mistake, and something bad is likely to happen from it." So a spell that would eliminate "botches" would mean one that prevents you from ever making a mistake.
From the player perspective, "botch" is a mechanic. It means "I just rolled a bad roll that means my character made a mistake and something bad is going to happen." Because it is a mechanic, the character cannot know it exists and cannot talk about it or do anything about it. Mechanics do not exist within the game multiverse.
But you want to soften the impact of botches. The problem is, you can't address the results of mistakes with some kind of blanket protection. That is, you can reduce the probability that anyone would make a mistake by casting spells that increase the chance of success and so reduce the chance of failure and the accompanying chance to botch, but such an effort on a global scale invites botches of its own. But the botch might be a kinetic blast, or a release of fire, or a sudden freeze, or the destruction of the atmosphere, or the release of poison, or a psychic shockwave, or a magic anomaly, or, or, or, or--and if you want to mitigate the effects of botches, you have to target every possible harmful effect that exists. You have to cast a temperature control that keeps temperatures within livable conditions (and that's going to prevent fires and freezers). You have to cast kinetic dampeners (and that will make it terribly difficult to drive a nail). You have to build psionic static (which will make it difficult for people to think in words).
You're asking for some way of saying, "If anyone makes a mistake that might result in a harmful or dangerous outcome, such outcome would be reduced."
You'd have to be one of the ruling gods of the universe to do that. If you were, though, you wouldn't be a verser.
--M. J. Young
Tue Oct 12 2010 2:46 am # -
Of course, if you're the referee, you can always choose not so terrible botches; personally I like to follow the rule of 7 bad botch options and 1 good one; unfortunately, in most of my on the fly applications I come up with 6, at least one of which will almost definitely be fatal and some of which will be nuisances and generally one good or neutral one.
Tue Oct 12 2010 3:03 am # -
John doesn't want a situation in which the referee is keeping the botches limited. He wants a situation in which the characters have found a way to prevent botches from being a serious problem. You know--get five million versers together, and they're going to start playing with magic and psionics and incredibly high technology, and botches are going to start taking out the population. He wants a way for the characters themselves to prevent the botches from being severe.
--M. J. Young
Tue Oct 12 2010 3:51 am # -
Tadeusz
MemberAnd today is Vacation Day. Yippee! The Ladyfaire is following Ver. 1.2 in the bus off to Holiday Farms for a school field trip, and on the same day, Ver. 1.1 has the annual Parents Eat Lunch At School thing, so with one car, I am condemned to spend the morning at the Emporium (a very nice and huge coffee shoppe with a New Orleans theme) and fast Internet. After which I have a burger lunch with my cool kid (hopefully the burger is not soy, if so that will be soy-soy as burgers go.), and then head to McDonalds for Coke and more internet time until my Ladyfaire comes by to join me with Ver. 1.2 in tow, and then we all pick up Ver. 1.1.
I know, I'm a lazy bum, and God is gracious to me indeed.
Thu Oct 14 2010 1:22 pm # -
Tadeusz
MemberThanks, Kyler.
MJ,
You may wish to start another character. I know I helped talk you into the second, and I think that turned out well. Graeme is not able to do his game regularly, I guess, and I doubt you want me to take over from him in the midst of a world (I have no problem with doing so if he's okay with it...but ideally I'd go with Option B.) And Option B is for you to have a third verser character. I think twould be a lot of fun. I have some different areas I'd like to explore.Thu Oct 14 2010 1:50 pm # -
Tadeusz
MemberWell yes, but we try to expand the base rather than diminish it. And Jhiaxus, I knew two players. One was M. who was in many ways an okay guy although not as bright as the rest (although not dumb), and the other was Other Eric who is brighter than most and gifted with verbal skills.
So M. could be annoying and sometimes deliberately stupid, and after a bit Other Eric just decided that it would be fun to tweak the poor fellow....every chance he got. And it was not remotely a fair fight. Other Eric could have outwitted me and perhaps M. was smarter than me as well, but I'm well, not a good person to pick on for various reasons. I'm too calm and too hard at the same time. Against M. who was a bit inclined to freak out, and much smaller than me, and again, not as quick witted in a duel of insults, it was a massacre.
Thu Oct 14 2010 3:43 pm # -
Tadeusz
MemberTo be sure. I want my game with John to offer him a path to dealing with other gamers in a more helpful way. Of course, John, if you need to blow off steam, and go on a Hulk Smash....there are restaurants, and then there are bars, and in some of the bars there are places for wrestling...and if you really want to fight Nuevo Amsterdam has plenty of dark alleys. Or you could track down some goblins or red caps.
Thu Oct 14 2010 3:56 pm # -
JohnA1nut
MemberSo John you expect Kyler to not be what you call an insolent snot (I disagree but that's besides the point) due to societal expectations yet you yourself refuse to adjust to societal expectations?
Let's see. There's 17 posters in the Behind the Screens thread. People have been posting there for years. He says MJ is the only one who should post there. Why is he suddenly harping on me for doing what 15 other people have been doing all along?
Thu Oct 14 2010 9:17 pm # -
I'm sorry if you didn't know the rule. The fact was, is, and remains that the behind the screens thread is intended for MJ's mechanics. There have been occasions where someone has corrected an error he made there or asked a mechanics related question (the latter of which would have been better delegated to another thread). That does not negate the fact that everyone will look there who has an interest in the mechanics pertinent to their game thread at least; considering that you aren't even being run in a game by him at the moment, your reasons to necessarily post there at all are very close to nil.
Thu Oct 14 2010 9:23 pm #
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