Gaming Outpost Discussions

1. 

   Brock
   Member

   Osevens, I really hope you don't get killed before you marry your bride. It will be really interesting to watch you two slog through the multiverse someday.

   On a related note, MJ, what is the record for longest time staying alive in one universe? Do you know? I'd like to see osevens beat it, though of course that's all up to the Plot, the Dice, and the Player, isn't it?

   Now on to the thread topic. Does scriff still need some kind of shock to bind it to you if it was transferred through sex? Or does the character just become a verser, just like that?

   Tue Aug 18 2009 10:43 pm #
2. 

   Tadeusz
   Member

   Not in one of my games. Heh, heh./bloodthirsty gm.

   Actually, I think Misty went for a pretty long run in 'Connetticut Yankee Colony Starship'.

   And I think Graeme and Shawn both went for pretty long runs under MJ. We called Graeme the 'Unaverser'.

   Tue Aug 18 2009 11:38 pm #
3. 

   M. J. Young
   Moderator

   I don't know how that would be measured. After all, I've had player characters burn up years of routine activity in a single game night at the table (one completed a seminary course to kick his religion SAL up into the mid professional range and bonus his holy magic thereafter). The Mary Piper has the potential to run very long, particularly when you're actually on the ship--a single trip takes a minimum of 174 days with an extremely low probability of that occurring; the maximum without delays for port or travel events is 455, and thus the average trip, apart from delays, is 314.5 days, most of a year. So it's easy to burn up time there.

   On the other hand, I think I might hold the record for time spent in NagaWorld at 120 NagaWorld days, the equivalent of 200 earth days. People don't tend to stay there long, because if you surrender to boredom you will do something dangerous. It has been said that the giant robot spiders in the glass city have killed some of the most powerful versers known, some of them more than once.

   You'd also have to ask "who" qualifies. Robert Elvis Slade went on an adventure to rescue a djinn lord, and having succeeded he was granted wishes which he used to great effect making him a wealthy lord himself. He then spent twenty-three years doing the lordship things and watching the children of his companions mature before immolating himself on a mag botch. But he's a character in a multiverser novel, not a player character (although some of his life and personality is derived from various player characters, notably Whisp and di Vars).

   I know that di Vars was zygoted and eventually became a famous science fiction/fantasy author in that world--and that that was played; it was before I was involved in Multiverser, though, so I don't know the details.

   If you want to set records, you have to stick to low risk activities and become involved in some sort of routine that burns up calendar.

   The whole sex/scriff connection is a bit vague, I'm afraid. It was something Ed decided would be part of it, in part because he wanted to plague Chris with hundreds of angry women seeking vengeance for what he did to them. It goes against one of the fundamental rules I follow otherwise: no one can be certain that he is scriff infected until he dies and finds himself alive in another universe, and no one can be certain that anyone else is scriff infected unless that person died. In fact, I'm pretty sure that if Harry's wife dies (in her home world) before he does, her scriff has never been activated, and she is not a verser--unless I decide otherwise at the time. That's really the point: the referee is supposed to be able to decide who is and is not a verser. Spouses and others in similar relationships are considered "automatic" because of course they "would" go with the spouse, so no rolls are made and the player can't disclaim the relationship unless there is some in game reason why the relationship should be considered dysfunctional--and in that case, it's usually in the referee's best interest to make the spouse an independent verser on the same cycle, because it means you've got an antagonist at hand when you need to create a bit of trouble for your player's character.

   I think I'm rambling. That's a bad sign this early in the night.

   --M. J. Young

   Wed Aug 19 2009 12:30 am #
4. 

   JohnA1nut
   Member

   I think I'm rambling. That's a bad sign this early in the night.

   Welcome to my world MJ.

   (Doing Therapy)

   Wed Aug 19 2009 12:41 am #
5. 

   Brock
   Member

   I must confess that the referee freedom of this game far surpasses the freedom of others, notably 3.5 D and D. I like it, but I now see why it is important for players to learn to play this game by example, and not through these boards. Some people would resent dome of the things the ref can do without mentioning anything quite a bit-which refs could already do to a great extent.

   Sat Aug 22 2009 1:20 am #
6. 

   M. J. Young
   Moderator

   Interesting observation. Care to elaborate? I looked at D&D3E briefly (hated it), and haven't seen anything really since, but I don't find Multiverser to give more freedom to referees than most other games I've seen (Hackmaster excluded).

   --M. J. Young

   Sat Aug 22 2009 3:04 am #
7. 

   WilliamTWodium
   Member

   I must confess that the referee freedom of this game far surpasses the freedom of others, notably 3.5 D and D.

   Heh. Not in the games I run.

   Sat Aug 22 2009 3:13 am #
8. 

   johnosevens
   Member

   M.J. - Take for small example how you and I disagree on the way spells work. I cast a spell with a 30-minute casting time, it's a new spell. I cast the exact same spell in all regards with a ten-minute casting time. You call it a new skill, I call it a modifier and a new use. Other systems might give a GM a little leeway in what skill applies (is this Pick Lock or Disable Device? Balance or Tumble? Dex + Alertness or Perception + Empathy?) but they don't allow the GM to freedom to completely define the nature and existence of a skill - those are more or less iron clad.

   Sat Aug 22 2009 4:43 am #
9. 

   M. J. Young
   Moderator

   Harry--that seems to me to be quite opposite. I don't think I have the freedom to allow the same spell to have two different casting times; if it has two different casting times, it is two different spells.

   I've wrestled with this with some of John Oakmaster's skills, but ultimately time factor is one of the components that feeds into chance of success, and in fact one of the most fundamental. It is foundational to the system that the length of time it takes to cast the spell is directly proportional to the amount of power it delivers. I'm locked in on that.

   --M. J. Young

   Sat Aug 22 2009 5:15 am #
10. 

    JohnA1nut
    Member

    MJ, you're always talking about how this system can do ANYTHING. In other words, the words "I'm locked in on that" shouldn't be in your vocabulary. Why couldn't you make it the same spell, new use, shorter casting time, and just give it a -10 sit mod or something for the shorter casting time? Likewise, if the person took longer, same spell, new use, and a +10 sit mod for longer time? Makes sense to me.

    Sat Aug 22 2009 5:21 am #
11. 

    Graham
    Member

    Because the Multiverser rules define new spells that way, that's why. If two spells are exactly the same except that their TFs differ, they are different spells. It's not a soft idea, it's a hard one; it's just a rule. I'm sure if you want to ref your games like that you can find a way, but it's not how Multiverser works.

    Sat Aug 22 2009 11:41 pm #
12. 

    WilliamTWodium
    Member

    Why can't I just cook the turkey for half the time as part of the same skill? New use, cook it for one hour at 350F instead of two, and just give it a -10 sit mod for the shorter time?

    Sun Aug 23 2009 3:25 am #
13. 

    JohnA1nut
    Member

    If it's 350 for two hours, 700 for one hour doesn't work. Point made.

    Sun Aug 23 2009 4:54 am #
14. 

    Tadeusz
    Member

    You could set up a spell as a power-gathering phase and a trigger moment. An example is those water-powered rockets...they'll launch after a few pumps, but more and the rocket goes higher, and even more...

    You could...
    1. Set it up so there is a 'wait until ready' spell trigger.

    Joe the Wizard was watching the T-rex charge him. Unfortunately, he had to stay very still as he drew in the energy of the distant storm for a Megabolt spell. It was an open question in his mind if he could draw in enough power to activate the spell before the T-rex got to him. Whichever way, it was going to be very close.

    2. Set it up with a 'trigger at will' spell trigger.

    Ellen saw her target for the Dart of Doom racing away, and cursing to herself unleashed the spell earlier than she liked, before she had fully absorbed the Doomenergies from her Doomstone. It flew halfway to her target and simply fizzled. Not enough power.

    Over the last two days, Michael had gathered mana by tapping in to the power of the moving planets in order to fend off the comet heading toward his adopted world. In order to reach full sufficiency of power, he really needed three days. Unfortunately the comet was about to impact the upper atmosphere in minutes. There was no time. He looked about at his friends, and asked them to pray as he unleashed the Ghost Planet spell which if it worked would phase the whole planet and let the comet pass through harmlessly. If not, well, he'd have the rest of eternity to remember his mistake for he was a verser.

    Sun Aug 23 2009 4:08 pm #
15. 

    WilliamTWodium
    Member

    One mechanic for things like Eric has in (2) is to allow the TF to be variable, but to penalize for the privilege. It goes like this:

    A. Chose the maximum timefactor for the spell. Sit-mod accordingly.

    B. Now, choose the minimum time factor. Note what the sit-mod would be if this were the spell's time factor.

    C. Subtract the sit-mod in A from the number you noted in B; divide by 2 and apply this as a penalty to the skill.

    D. Each time the character begins casting the spell, he chooses the time factor from within the pre-defined range. If he uses a time factor that is shorter than the maximum, he suffers an additional penalty of -10 per halving of the maximum time factor.

    E. If the character wishes to define the skill such that he need not choose his time factor until he decides to release the magic (as in Eric's anecdotes under 2), apply an additional -10 sit-mod to every casting (for control of an additional variable).

    Thus, if Michael is casting a M15@7* Temporary Non-Physicality which takes at least eight hours to cast but can be "charged up" for a maximum of three days, the calculation would go like this:

    A. The baseline TF is - I dunno, call it an hour - but the maximum time factor is three days. That's seventy two hours, so (2,4,8,16,32,64) six doublings plus 12.5% of a seventh doubling rounds to +61 for the max TF.

    B. The minimum time factor is only eight hours, which is three doublings for only +30. We don't apply that number, though; we just make a note of it. [Note: +30]

    C. Thirty (the number from B) minus sixty-one (from A) is -31, divided by two rounds to -16.

    D. (skipping this for a second)

    E. Michael doesn't want to have to declare in advance how long a particular casting will take him, so he accepts an additional -10 for being able to let the spell go off "early" in response to changing circumstances (like the comet).

    That gives us a spell with a sliding-scale time factor. It's (+61 -16 -10 =) +45 to cast if you take the whole three days, but in an emergency, you can let it go as early as eight hours in for a -31 penalty (total: +14).

    In the particular case Eric outlines, two days is 67% of the way to one-half of three days, so that's -7 for a total TF sit-mod of +38.

    ___

    Notice that with this method, the caster would always be better off knowing a skill that had the exact time factor that would be most convenient for the situation. What the penalty buys him is flexibility within a single skill, and thus, a single SAL.

    Sun Aug 23 2009 8:10 pm #
16. 

    Tadeusz
    Member

    Thank you, Wodium.

    In #1, you might have some sort of undertermined time as the energy flows are irregular, and so is your skill in pulling them in...which sounds like a Relative Success for Time Factor.

    You could do it as a quick-casting skill as well, or a 'fast-draw' skill.

    Alex snagged breezes and gusts from the distant mountains, but it was a chaotic thing, with winds going one way and the other, and he was building a tornado to attack his foeman's army with. Only clockwise winds would do for his purpose. He much preferred as a Windmancer, fighting on the coasts where steady breezes provided preditability to spells, but in the wild lands, one never knew how long a spell would take.

    Robert drew on the focus taught him by Master Yanchi. Shut out the world. Inside the perfect cocoon of ignorance, he molded the spell with deft and quick hands, not slowed by outside distractions. (My attempt at describing quick-casting).

    Jen whipped through her wizardly backpack, snatching potions,and waters, and feathers, and wishing she had three more hands like Yongvi the Five-armed. The potions she shook with her left hand, the waters she snatched from between her teeth with her right, and poured them out speed talking through the power words to sanctify the soil, and then with her left hand she sketched the sacred circle even as with her right she put down the feathers to summon the Great Roc and get out of town before the mooks discovered that the gold coins she paid them with were faerie gold. (fast draw and ambidestrous casting. I know you can do faster magic with pro skill levels, but I think I portrayed here a mage hurrying like mad and with some skill in that.)

    Sun Aug 23 2009 9:20 pm #
17. 

    WilliamTWodium
    Member

    Alex:
    At first I was thinking a GE roll, but given that the time is dependent on the (presumably known) conditions, I'm thinking that this isn't one skill with a long time factor, but rather two skills, each with short time factors. The first skill is a Gather Energy from Wind, and it is used repeatedly in preparation for using the second skill, Manipulate Wind Energy (specialized into applications at higher SALs) to more-than-ordinarily-devastating effect. The first skill is heavily sit-modded by ambient conditions, such that it fails very rarely in a stiff sea breeze but works only occasionally in "the wild lands" where the wind is less prevalent/reliable. The number of successes (or amount of cumulative RS) required for the use of the second skill is fixed, however, thus accounting for the variation in the preparation time.

    Robert:
    Either the skill in question has a repeat factor (making it instant activation anyway), or Robert is using a temporal manipulative of some kind. This one sounds psionic, but I could see the case for a Mag-based skill.

    Jen:
    I am uncomfortable with a skill that enables one to cut short the time-factors of other skills, unless the skill in question actually manipulates time. The only non-temporal possibility I would be willing to entertain would be some variety of M4@8 Manipulate Magic skill, specialized such that use of the Speed Casting before an attempted use of another magic skill would allow the magic to be released following an abbreviated time factor. I would require: 1) that the Speed Casting skill be performed to completion prior to the beginning of the ritual for the target spell, 2) that the TF be reduced by not more than RS/5 percent at the amateur level, and 3) that in the event that the Speed Casting skill fails, that the TF of the target spell be reduced by (100-RF)/5 percent, and that when that time elapses the target spell automatically fails.

    I'm not even quite sure I'm comfortable with that - perhaps there is a better solution - but I'm a bit rushed at the moment, so it will do for now.

    Sun Aug 23 2009 10:58 pm #
18. 

    M. J. Young
    Moderator

    Scott's Manipulate Casting Time skill is an interesting idea, but I agree that it would be very difficult to quantify. My feeling is that the skill should have a fixed TF and that casting it would reduce the TF of the next skill by twice the TF of the manipulate skill. Thus if you have a 1:00 skill you can take 2:00 off the casting of the next skill.

    The problem then comes in chaining them. If by definition the casting of the first reduces the casting time of "the next skill", and you cast it twice consecutively, the second casting winds up with a negative casting time and there's no benefit to using it for some big spell down the road--your 1:00 version will take 2:00 off whatever skill is next, but you can't possibly chain it to do 5:00 of castings and get 10:00 benefit. The obvious solution would be to allow the application of the bonus to apply to the upcoming select skill--but then you wind up with the potential of "saving" the bonus for a very long time, and even the potential that bias would become a factor.

    That last is significant. Suppose I cast the one minute 4@8 manipulate spell five times, because I have this really potent ten minute fire strike and I want to reduce the casting time to 0. Let's say I've got a 15@ bias and I'm in a 15@ world, my BRA is 2@5 and my SAL 2@5, so I'm looking at 65% chance of success on this, 3% chance to botch. I roll 45, 75, 65, 97, 12--three successes and two failures. It will reduce my casting time by six minutes. But before I can cast it, I get killed, and verse into a new world. I've just done five castings of this spell, three of which were successful--but in this world, the world bias is 0@, so my chance of success just fell to 50%, and one of those successes is now a failure, and one of those failures is now a botch.

    I do allow skills to be partially cast and then completed later (Graeme has designed several of these, usually involving material components which are used in an extended prep and then destroyed in an instant completion, -10 for allowing the break). However, I don't roll the dice for success or failure until the skill is completed--at which time I do so based on the conditions (particularly bias) when and where the spell is completed. That means that if this other spell is going to affect a future designated spell, then its success or failure must be based on the conditions at the time the effect is used, not the conditions when the prep is done.

    I also don't like the idea this creates, that you could cast those five prep spells in the safety of your room and discharge them a month later when you need the power for that fire strike.

    Thus I would say you've still got the same problem: you have to have distinct spells for distinct reductions in casting time, because you can't really chain such a spell if each casting affects the next casting.

    You could, though, have a 1:00, a 2:00, a 5:00, and so on, used to shorten the TFs of very complex rituals.

    And as Scott says you could also use a temporal effects spell to deflate the time for the casting--but these are usually rather complicated themselves.

    John, you often tell me that since I say Multiverser can do anything, it should be able to do it the way you want it to work. That does not follow. If I have an all-terrain vehicle and I say it can drive anywhere, that doesn't mean it can do so without fuel.

    Multiverser can do anything in the sense that whatever your character wants to do, there is a way to do that, and a way to make it work mechanically. If your character wants to take a skill that previously took him three hours to cast and cast the same thing in three minutes, he can do that--Multiverser makes that possible. It makes it possible by saying that he just designed a new skill based on the example of the old one, he gets the bonus of the SAL of the old skill, and if he is successful he adds the new three minute version to his sheet, with whatever terms apply to it.

    So he can cast the "same spell" in the sense that he can get the same effect in three minutes instead of three hours, but mechanically he has used a different skill.

    That is, using exactly the same mechanics at all times, the game can produce any desired outcome.

    --M. J. Young

    Sun Aug 23 2009 11:57 pm #
19. 

    johnosevens
    Member

    If your character wants to take a skill that previously took him three hours to cast and cast the same thing in three minutes, he can do that--Multiverser makes that possible.

    And do so with the exact same SAL for the skill he's been using the three-hour version of for years?

    Mon Aug 24 2009 1:18 am #
20. 

    Tadeusz
    Member

    Wodium,

    Yes it does sound psionic. That would be best for that I think.

    I guess my real question is can I have a skill that substitutes perfect concentration for some of the time in the TF for another spell? That opens up a whole interesting idea, like...the only way you can banish the demon is with the sword of Zandi, but Archmage Biff knows a spell to duplicate the exact powers and feel of Zandi's sword without the sword, and that satisfies the conditions....

    MJ,
    It may indeed be unbalancing to allow 'saving' of TF's, but thats a large part of what makes a wizard. The Prototypical Wizard is deadly if he has time to prepare, and get all his ducks in a row.

    This is very much in line with the stories. Wizards walking around with a volcano on tap, ready to be unleashed at any second, but taking a lot of effort to prepare. Forex, in Terry Pratchett's Discworld, the failed wizard Rincewind read one of the Eight Great Spells, and now he has no space in his mind for any lesser spell, and he can't use it because it would probably do something (he doesn't know what it actually does) like depopulate a continent. (Granted, he got his by accident sorta, but then this is Discworld).

    Mon Aug 24 2009 3:00 am #
21. 

    WilliamTWodium
    Member

    If your character wants to take a skill that previously took him three hours to cast and cast the same thing in three minutes, he can do that--Multiverser makes that possible.

    And do so with the exact same SAL for the skill he's been using the three-hour version of for years?

    Nope. Once again: any outcome, not any mechanic. Tell me what you want in terms of an outcome, and I'll supply the mechanic. If you give me a mechanic, my only options are (a) tell you the outcome, which may not be the outcome you want, or (b) reject the mechanic as unconstitutional.

    Edit: By the way, in the example, the character has a skill at performing a three-hour ritual - for the sake of argument, let's say he's expert at it. Why on earth should his skill at performing a one-second-per-minute Cliff's Notes version of that ritual be expert-level the first three times he tries?

    Mon Aug 24 2009 7:48 am #
22. 

    Graham
    Member

    How does magic specialization work? I know as you go up the SALs with things like guns they get more specific (gas powered slug throwers, rifles, THIS rifle), but does the same apply to magic at all? Could you have a spell start off as amateur (manipulate fire) evolve into a specialized professional level skill (firebolt) to an expert skill (fireball)? or would you have to specify in the creation of the original spell that, oh by the way, this spell can also make fireballs if I want it to?

    Mon Aug 24 2009 1:12 pm #
23. 

    JohnA1nut
    Member

    Yeah MJ, I know I'm always trying to "break the game" as you put it. However, how can you be certain that your system is as good as you think it is unless someone tries to break it? Just like how I couldn't just leave because you wouldn't learn anything, so to, if you just keep doing the same things, you won't find out what the system can do. And you just know that if there is a hole in this system, it's going to be a complete and total rookie like me that finds it. It's just the way things like this tend to work out.

    Mon Aug 24 2009 4:59 pm #
24. 

    M. J. Young
    Moderator

    The question I see that is still unanswered is how specialization works in magic.

    It does apply to magic "use device" skills. That is, suppose I have a 1@5 Operate Active When Worn/Held Device M*1@3 skill, that will work for armor, swords, rings, pendants, belts, hats, shoes--just about anything that falls into this category. (Note that the referee might rule that certain devices which require wearing or holding are actually in a higher category, such as Active on Condition; the point is that if the device falls into this category, you know how to use it at an amateur level.) If I reach 2@1, though, it will be with some sub-category--rings, or armor. The 1@10 still applies to everything else. If I reach 3@1, that applies to this ring, this shield, and so on.

    Otherwise, advancing SALs in magic skills increase the potency of the skill. Always a 2@ skill will have half the casting time, and some other factor will be doubled--referee and player should agree as to what, but it can be range, +DC, duration, area, or any other identifiable aspect that can be increased thus. A 3@ skill will always have one third the casting time (as over the amateur version), and whatever was doubled for the professional is tripled (over the amateur) for the expert, and one other factor is tripled.

    Half the casting time for a repeat factor skill means double the RF.

    Sometimes a magic (or psionic) skill lends itself to narrowing--e.g., if you have a skill that detects or identifies materials it could be that you develop expertise at detecting or identifying metals or gemstones or plant materials or food types or some other narrowly defined grouping. That doesn't work so well with many spells, so we just don't worry about them. Obviously a spell that throws fire can't easily be narrowed, unless you're talking about one that is general enough initially that it does a lot of different things (fire balls, fire strikes, fire pillars, start cooking fires) in which case you can narrow it such that only the fireballs have the triple tripled bonus.

    --M. J. Young

    Tue Aug 25 2009 2:43 am #
25. 

    Jhiaxus
    Member

    Just going to post a few observations and whatnot:

    1) Hackmaster is not a freedom based game, it is a direct translation of 1st and 2nd edition AD&D, with new rules, flavor written. It has a rigid leveling system, but if you know how to "break" the system you can pretty much make a character much stronger than it should be. There are some of us that are known as game breakers out there, and we have probably gotten 20 spells, 5 class combinations, and hundreds of different errata to try and level the playing field. I can feel confident in saying, in 4th edition hackmaster, I can make a character to dominate any tournament from levels 1-12. There is a new edition out that is much, much harder to break, as many of the people who broke the previous one has a hand in shaping the new one.

    2) Multiverser isn't about "breaking the game", you can try to make your character bigger, badder, more powerful, and that's fun, but there are no set in stone limitations a GM has to have to worry about defeating you. Can you maximize your potential in the game, yes, can the GM just as easily come up with a foil, yes? The point of the game is to have fun, for both you and the GM. If one or the other or both isn't having fun, go to a new world and start fresh.

    3) With that being said, with character sheets, items out there; it's fun to say, how would someone do against someone. It's fun, I've done it with some of the veterans. It boils down to a chess match, thinking ahead, having plans, and knowing when to throw plans out the window and just think on your feet.

    Thu Sep 3 2009 8:19 pm #

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