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Seals of Creation

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Started 4 years ago by Tadeusz
Latest reply from WilliamTWodium

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Tadeusz
Member

This could be a magic limitation (I'm not using it as such in this world.)

The question is this: What about Shadowrun or some other place where Magic Bloomed?

Well, the idea is that an archmage can make a powerful enough spell to either bind the bias levels, or a step down dispel all magic above a certain level for the next thousand years. The second probably works better.

But such Seals of Creation are vulnerable to very few things. The erosion of time and faith may bend them or wear them away. But frequently, they can last for thousands of years.

Sometimes tho',they become increasingly brittle.

There are of course Unwinding Spells which tend to be enormously complicated, and quite powerful in their own right.

And there is certain trigger events, some of which might not be foreseen.

And last, but not least, there is simply a huge wash of magic might batter them down. Something like a Planetary Full Heal, for example.

So, if Tad and Ed were on such a planet, the result of the spell could be A)Everyone and everything is healed. Praise the Creator! B)Hungry dragons rising with the dawn sun to hunt as the true bias of 15@10 is reasserted from behind the facade.

Mon Dec 3 2007 4:43 am #
johnosevens
Member

Who that was powerful enough to do that would bother? Wouldn't such an archmage be hosing himself exponentially worse than everyone else, since he stands to lose that much more? Or is this the sort of thing that a wizarding Verser might do to a planet he didn't like a sort of last "F You" to a world that had done him wrong?

On a related note, I've wondered if it were somehow possible to influence bias levels not on a universal scale, but ... hmm... how do I describe this... Would it be possible to construct a device that locks in the "world bias" value, applies it only to you, and takes it with you between verses? So I find a high-magic world, lock it in, and then Verse out, keeping the high-magic of the last Verse in the dead-magic of the next one?

To get back on topic, a powerful enough archmage can troutslap reality however he likes. That's kinda the point of becoming an archmage (and probably one of the requirements for joining the club). But again I would have to ask why anyone would bother. Plus, if you dispel all magic above a certain level, wouldn't you need something in place to keep the ward from periodically attacking itself, or are we assuming magic is smarter than that?

Mon Dec 3 2007 3:24 pm #
Tadeusz
Member

Jerry Pournelle and Larry Niven wrote "The Magic Goes Away" about an Atlantean era world where magic was fading. They eventually wrote a sequel which revealed how this was accomplished.

It seems the Sun beamed down mana along with light. And someone had towed a mana shield the size of the moon in between the Earth and the Sun.

As to why...well imagine you're an archmage facing off against a slew of lesser opponents. Say a circle of second-rate (in your mind) necromancers have torn off the hinges of the Gates of the Dead.

You can take any one of them, and his army of the dead, and maybe any two of them, but you can't take on all ten of them.

Time to strike from so far out of left field they won't ever see it coming. Time to do in football the desperation pass where you chunk the football from end zone to end zone, and hope your guy catches it,a nd wins the game.

Also, although I think its been discussed already, I'm trying to come up with a rationale for something like Shadowrun. Day One: Typical Cyberpunk world. Day Two: Cyberpunk world with Troll shamans calling on spirits to attack the Elf deckrunner.

Mon Dec 3 2007 3:52 pm #
WilliamTWodium
Member

A "hail Mary pass," that's called. I learn this from the news.

I could see this being done in response to prophecy. You're the biggest and the baddest now, but later you'll be dead, and the biggest and baddest will be really evil, and you can't think of anything better to do.

Or else this is someone's idea of social engineering. "If it weren't for magic, there would be no war," or something equally foolish.

I'm guessing that this spell would be a 15@10 Do Anything with some very hefty sitmods to be overcome by ritual modifiers. I also think that it would not affect the biases - not directly. Perhaps the bias could fall over time, as outlined in some chapter or other in the book; this wouldn't affect the spell, though, because it's a continuing effect (like the machinery in The Industrial Complex, 2nd Book of Worlds).

Mon Dec 3 2007 8:42 pm #
johnosevens
Member

Interesting points, all around. I guess I don't have a counter for these.

Mon Dec 3 2007 10:30 pm #
WilliamTWodium
Member

O'Sevens - I do agree that this would be a pretty rare thing to have happen, seeing as the circumstances that would actually make it a good idea are pretty out there. Still, it's a multiverse . . .

Mon Dec 3 2007 10:49 pm #
Tadeusz
Member

I wouldn't use a Seal except for two reasons (as a GM):

1. The Seal is an essential part of the story, probably close to The Central Focus.

2. I need to juice up a boring world. Say you've managed to defeat all foes, institute just government, and put your world on a rising curve of economic prosperity....which is all great. But it can be boring for the player. Pop open a Seal, and unleash Chaos.

I had this situation in The Postman world. Early version Tad was President of the Reformed USA, daily we were expanding, technology was getting refitted, justice was all about....and my people both loved and feared me (so even those few who even in a good society have a hate on would be frightened of taking on the guy they called Ghost.)

I could have very possibly stayed a century there, and ushered in flights to the Outer Solar System.

Instead I started taking long trips in winter on horseback, and got frozen, and versed out.

Going back to #1:

1. The Central Focus: The Six Seals of Dread wall out the power of Evil since this is a world that had been overrun by Evil (Vampires, Demons, Dragons...). Now someone is running around trying to open the Seals. And the hero has to stop them before the waiting Army of Evil comes marching in.

2. Magic Blooms Suddenly. Yesterday was normal. Flew the jet to London. Today, well, we had to have jet fighter escorts to shoot down the wild dragons that rose to fight what they evidently thought was a challenging silver dragon as the jet flew home.

3. Magic Blooms in End of the World fashion: Things go nuts. Magic hits the world with roughly the same benevolence that an asteroid the size of Texas would. Society comes flying apart. Frequently, in this situation, a reverse Seal kicks in. That is, all Tech is now suppressed by Magic. Of course, this kind of requires that the magic bias stay high for that to work. You have mass die-offs, and millions fleeing the city, and small groups of Christians, and small circles of Wiccan covens finding to their surprise that no longer are they the little guys who are tolerated, but that they are rapidly heading toward being the Elephant. (of course, along the way are many who are not going to like that.)

4. The Apocalypse or Ragnarok: It is the End of the World. And the various Lords of Light and Demon Princes, heroes and monsters, have all come on stage to play their roles. In a few years from now, the final curtain falls. Or there could be some sort of wait like the Millenium Period in the Bible where Jesus rules in perfect justice, but in the end, Mankind reveals that at least a fair part of them are not that interested in justice or righteousness, and the last battle occurs.

Mon Dec 3 2007 11:24 pm #
WilliamTWodium
Member

It strikes me that some of these things could be modeled as a primary world with a low magic bias level but a high curve (say, 1@24 or 0@25), plus a related universe with a bias of 15@10, with the "seal" simply keeping the denizens of the related world out of the primary one.

Mon Dec 3 2007 11:54 pm #
Tadeusz
Member

Naga World had a flaky curve like that, but no related universe. Yeah, that could work.

I tend to think of MV as a system that can accomplish the same thing in multiple ways.

Anyone have ideas for how you would use a Seal of Creation or some other similar world-shaping magic in world design?

Tue Dec 4 2007 12:11 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

How do you raise the bias of a world? I could see in a flatline tech bias, you invent something that goes above the curve, would that do it? Perhaps there is some way of raising a flatline psi bias through magical means? Or a flatline tech bias through body skills? Just a thought.

Tue Dec 4 2007 12:15 am #
johnosevens
Member

A1Nut - I had occasion to wonder that myself recently.

And yeah, I think altering world biases and Seals of Creation are more like a 3@10 Plot Hook than anything else. Versers themselves really ought not be going around doing that, at least not often. When the need arises, or is thrust upon you by a referee, it ought to be memorable.

Tue Dec 4 2007 12:25 am #
WilliamTWodium
Member

Indigs have a lot more power when it comes to changing biases than versers do. When an indig, for example, invents something that's above the tech bias level but within the curve, the bias level rises to accommodate the invention. If a verser were to do the same thing, nothing would happen - he can do things above the level but within the curve anyway, because he's a verser, and it has no bearing on the indigs and the universe. That's just an example, but there's a similar system for other things that could affect the tech bias and for things that affect other bias areas. (Evolution of new abilities by indigs raises the bod bias, magical research can raise the magic bias, like that.)

Tue Dec 4 2007 12:51 am #
Tadeusz
Member

Things like a Zygote Experience, a Donna's Door, or a Seal of Creation should be, IMHO, done perhaps once in a campaign to a character, and not to every character. But you do want to make the player's eyeballs pop out so do it at least once.

And then there was a trick MJ pulled in one of his novels which surprised me...it started with the letter 'r', and I won't go further than that.

In other words, John7, you're absolutely right.

Eric

Tue Dec 4 2007 12:59 am #
johnosevens
Member

What happens if a Verser does something and an indig copies it? Like if I show Merlin some Velcro and he goes all "dude I gotta get me some of that" and in six months all the fashionable wizards are holding their robes on with third-hand bootlegged NASA tech, does that raise the Tech bias, or have I just destroyed society and given them nothing back but a lot of lint in their shoes?

Likewise, if indigs develop some weird new ability (four arms, for instance) because a Verser goes to a high-magic low-bod world and casts a give-everyone-four-arms spell does that raise the bod bias or is our hypothetical Verser just a jerk for making everybody look funny?

Tue Dec 4 2007 1:01 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

SCOTT WROTE:
Indigs have a lot more power when it comes to changing biases than versers do. When an indig, for example, invents something that's above the tech bias level but within the curve, the bias level rises to accommodate the invention. If a verser were to do the same thing, nothing would happen - he can do things above the level but within the curve anyway, because he's a verser, and it has no bearing on the indigs and the universe. That's just an example, but there's a similar system for other things that could affect the tech bias and for things that affect other bias areas. (Evolution of new abilities by indigs raises the bod bias, magical research can raise the magic bias, like that.)

So what if the verser inspires the Indig to invent it? Say you're in a world where scissors are above the level but within the curve. The verser describes scissors to an indig, and the indig then invents them. Would that work, or does the indig have to invent it on their own?

Tue Dec 4 2007 1:07 am #
johnosevens
Member

Ninja'd. :P heh.

Tue Dec 4 2007 1:10 am #
WilliamTWodium
Member

So what if the verser inspires the Indig to invent it? Say you're in a world where scissors are above the level but within the curve. The verser describes scissors to an indig, and the indig then invents them. Would that work, or does the indig have to invent it on their own?

Try to keep in mind that there's no way anyone but maybe the Alchemist would know this stuff. With that said:

It can work, but the indig would have had a much better chance of impacting the bias had he invented it himself. The invention is stained by the verser's influence; for it to impact the bias, it has to enter widespread use and become part of popular understanding in that universe, and it has to stay that way for some time. It's unlikely that a verser would be able to raise the tech bias significantly by this method during his stay in a universe. He'd have to stick around for a very long time indeed.

Tue Dec 4 2007 3:06 am #
WilliamTWodium
Member

and in six months all the fashionable wizards are holding their robes on with third-hand bootlegged NASA tech,

It would take a lot longer than six months. Because the indig got the idea from the verser, the invention is tainted, and it doesn't have an immediate impact on the bias. Because of that, it's still above the bias level for indigs, and many of the fashionable wizards won't know what on earth it is, much less start sewing it to their robes. It would take a very long time to percolate through society, and only after it had would it have a chance of affecting the bias.

Tue Dec 4 2007 3:09 am #
M. J. Young
Moderator

Of course, I'd have to figure out exactly how Velcro fits into the bias system, but I understand the question.

What happens when a verser introduces higher biased skills to indigs is either it doesn't work for the indig (if the verser just outright gave it to him), or the indig manages to get a temporary, localized increase in bias that applies to him (if the verser pointed him in the right direction to figure it out for himself). In order for that to raise the bias of the world, it has to become generalized to the world--that is, a lot of other people have to start doing the same thing.

In order for them to do it, they need to learn it. Now, neither velcro nor scissors seem particularly good choices for this, so let's use epoxies--I show Merlin how to create two chemicals which stay pliable until mixed, and then harden. This is a 9@5 skill in what is probably a 6@2 world (6@1 pottery wheel and curve of 8 to accommodate certain metals skills). That means in addition to it being impossible, it's also very difficult--no one in this world has a tech bias over 6@1, probably, so that's a 34 point penalty to overcome for bias. I can't teach him the skill, because it won't work, even for me--it's above the curve. I can only do my best to get him thinking that direction, and hope he manages to develop it. He then has to get other indigs to think in that direction and develop the same skill, and then once enough people are doing it that it is no longer under the control of one unified group, the bias rises to 9@5, and it's a lot easier to fill in the intervening steps.

("One unified group" in this sense means a group that is organized or small enough that some individual within the group can contain the information, or the group is committed to containing the information. This is why tech biases tend to rise and mag biases tend to fall--technology usually has to be promulgated to be useful, until those who developed it cannot limit access; magic can be restricted to those committed to secrecy, and so is easily lost and forgotten over time. "All wizards" can be a unified group if they are all part of a brotherhood that adheres to the rules of the brotherhood, but usually it is not so, and "all wizards" would mean the information is no longer contained.)

My quick-and-easy solution to worlds like Shadowrun is that bias is ultimately set by God or the gods who have authority over a world--particularly mag bias, but also the other areas. Thus in Shadowrun when the world technology and social order collapsed, its gods decided that it needed magic, and that very quickly, so they changed the biases.

I mention it not because it's the one-size-fits-all solution, but because I think that any character who attempted to create a cap or other limit on magic would in essence be doing battle with the gods. That's not to say he couldn't beat them and get his cap in place, but it is going to be an uphill battle.

On the other hand, I could see an Elijah type calling on the world's supreme deity to crash the world mag bias. It would impact the entire universe for a very long time, but it wouldn't so much be a cap as a new bias level.

--M. J. Young

Tue Dec 4 2007 10:33 pm #
Tadeusz
Member

I don't have a problem with:
1. Its real uncommon to have a cap or whatever you choose to call them (although 'Seal of Creation' sounds a lot cooler.)
2. Major sit-mods to represent being opposed by the deities.

Also, as to the Mana must be Used limit from the 50 List, I thought of another way to phrase it. "You can only cast magic with pre-gathered power."

Eric

Tue Dec 4 2007 10:49 pm #
DarkestDwarf
Member

Question - If, in order to raise a bias, you need to invent/do something above the current level but within the curve... how can you raise the bias if it ends in @0, so the bias level and curve level are identical?

Also, regarding Shadowrun, that world has a cyclical magic level, like a sine wave thousands of years in amplitude. The slow drop of the magic level was a critical feature in the early history (the Earthdawn setting), and the rise of the magic as the tide came back in was critical in the Shadowrun setting.

The twin worlds of Phaze and Proton (the Apprentice Adept trilogy) could get confusing here. On Proton, technology and science work marvelously, the exotic mineral protonite being the basis for the world's economy. On Phaze, magic works incredibly well, derived from the mineral phazite. A single magical artifact, the platinum flute, was able to function on Proton, and science only worked at two locations on Phaze (the east and west poles). Something similar to one of your Seals seemed to be involved, splitting a single world into technological and mystical halves, and the platinum flute was the key that could re-combine them.

A similar circumstance existed in Zelazny's "Jack of Shadows", where technology only worked by day, and magic only worked at night.

Sun Jan 13 2008 8:53 am #
WilliamTWodium
Member

Question - If, in order to raise a bias, you need to invent/do something above the current level but within the curve... how can you raise the bias if it ends in @0, so the bias level and curve level are identical?

You described the method for raising the bias level. It is also possible to raise the bias curve by discovering something of a higher intensity within the current level; if the psi bias is 8@0, say, the curve could rise if a psionic researcher came up with techniques for thought interruption (P8@1). Once the world area bias intensity has reached at least @2, it will then be possible to raise the bias level.

Shadowrun's bias fluctuations are result of action by the ruling power, who has absolute control over the biases in his universe.

Phaze and Proton are covered under the rules for sub-universes and related universes. The Curtain was a means of passage between related universes, and the poles probably represent sub-universes in their own rights.

Mon Jan 14 2008 3:51 am #
M. J. Young
Moderator
Welcome to the forum, Darkest Dwarf.

I suppose the fundamental answer to your question is that it is not really the point of the game for player characters to change the bias; everything has been done to make that as difficult as possible. After all, if you've landed in a world with a high mag bias and a low tech bias, the point is to play in a world with a high mag bias and a low tech bias, not to turn it into something different.

The more general answer is:
- @1 skills are never curved out, so you can always learn an @1 skill of a higher level to increase the level.
- Indigs can at times push up the bias curve through intensive research that reveals new applications of principles. Whether this is because they are rewarded by the gods adjusting the level or whether they've forced the gods to accommodate them might be interpretive.
- Bias changes happen over nothing shorter than decades, and more commonly centuries.
The Shadowrun/Earthdawn example is simple enough: the ruling powers (in the supernatural realm) created the world with a slowly shifting bias, that would drop off and return over the course of millennia.

If I understand the Phaze and Proton examples, I would make them subuniverses, in which the biases are one thing at one planet and another at the other; and there are subuniverses within each that allow some things to work from the other.

Zelazny's world is tougher, but I'm sure if I sat down with it I could devise something. Probably I would set the border between two subuniverses along the orbit of the planet, so that when you rotated into darkness you were in one sub-universe and when you rotated into daylight you were in the other. This is tricky, though--it would mean you could use technology to travel through space inside the orbit of the planet, but you'd have to use magic to travel beyond the planetary orbit. Since I suspect Zelazny didn't address space travel in that context, I wouldn't think that would be a problem for representing the reality within the books.

--M. J. Young
Mon Jan 14 2008 4:31 am #
DarkestDwarf
Member

Thanks, MJ. Though I'm hardly new. I just haven't been around for a while.

Valdahraeddur

Tue Jan 15 2008 7:34 am #
WilliamTWodium
Member

I thought that was you, but I couldn't be certain.

Tue Jan 15 2008 7:44 am #

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