I am a blacksmith in the game I'm playing. That means I am good at using hand tools, like hammers, pliers, chisels, that kind of thing. Would that come into play if I were learning a different skill that used those tools? Suppose I decided to try out carpentry in my next world. That uses hammers, pliers and chisels. Would I have an up on learning carpentry because of the blacksmithing skills?
Skills, can they be related?
(27 posts) (6 voices)-
This is something largely left up to the referee. If you were in my game, I would give you a +5 sit mod on any attempts at carpentry you made until you learned carpentry as a separate skill. Mathematically, it's kind of like having a 0@5 SAL in carpentry. (We don't use 0@ SALs, because you can't have the skill and be worse than an amateur, but with a +5 sit mod and a 0 for skill instead of 1@1, the math works out the same.)
Of course, since your Tech bias is already 11@, you'll probably learn carpentry at at least 1@1 the very first time you try, so you'll never get a chance to use the bonus.
Ask yourself this. Fixing a car and fixing a toilet both involve using wrenches; does that mean an auto mechanic should be bonused when he learns to be a plumber?
Sat Dec 8 2007 5:31 am # -
JohnA1nut
MemberSCOTT WROTE:
"Ask yourself this. Fixing a car and fixing a toilet both involve using wrenches; does that mean an auto mechanic should be bonused when he learns to be a plumber?"Personally, I would say yes. A pipe wrench isn't like most wrenches. It takes some finesse and practice to use one properly. In that particular instance, I would say yes, they do deserve a bonus. Auto mechanics use pipe wrenches, after all.
However, blacksmithing uses hammers, and diamond cutters use hammers. I personally would not offer any kind of bonus for a blacksmith learning diamond cutting. Ahh, now I think I see why it is left up to the referee.
Sat Dec 8 2007 5:43 am # -
Technically speaking, your T5@3 Blacksmithing skill is what is called a <i>Skill Package</i>--it already includes several individual skills which are all given at the same skill ability level. That includes another skill package, a T3@X Use Simple Hand Tools skill, also at the same skill ability level. "Simple Hand Tools" are those which use leverage and wedges to accomplish simple work--hammers, chisels, screwdrivers, pliers, wrenches, et cetera, up to the most complex, saws and scissors/cutters.
A standard carpentry package, if I created one, would probably also include that package, depending on where you learned it. It is, after all, possible to learn to do quite a bit with wood without ever using those tools, as the design of a very primitive bow or quarterstaff, or the weaving of a basket or a wigwam, demonstrate. However, assuming you are learning to do carpentry of the sort we usually envision, yes, the tool skills are already inherent in it.
However, "carpentry" is not merely knowing how to use the tools. Were we to assume that you knew nothing more difficult than blacksmithing (bias-wise), and you were working with a carpenter, he could say, "pound this peg into this hole", or "use pliers to twist and hold that", or "cut this with that saw", and you would be using your tool skills, but you would not be learning carpentry. What the carpenter knows is how to design the objects, what tools and methods to use, how to make pegs or nails support the structure, how to make other kinds of wood joints such as dovetails. If you want to help a carpenter, you can follow his instructions and put your tool use skills to good use; if you want to be a carpenter, you're going to have to learn all those other details about how to work with wood, as opposed to metal. You can't weld an oak board to a birch beam; you've got to understand the rules for an entirely different sort of material.
In the more general sense, though, yes, skills can be related. As Scott says, he can "umbrella" one thing under another, giving you the benefit of your metalworking skill as a general craftsman skill to fix things that are not made of metal, by assuming it is like having a lower skill ability level in the related skill. "Skill packages" such as the ones mentioned can be created or expanded as the referee wishes. There are ways to use the "wrong" skill to achieve an objective, if you're creative. As a blacksmith, you can say, "if this were a horseshoe, I would drive a nail through it right there to hold it in place," and then drive the nail through the plank into the two-by-four using that skill. It's not going to be as good as being a carpenter, because he has a better understanding of planks and two-by-fours, but it will get the job done.
--M. J. Young
Sun Dec 9 2007 9:43 pm # -
johnosevens
MemberNo - Once you have your Verser self, he's his own man. John no more needs to actually learn blacksmithing in order to learn it in-game than I need to actually become telekinetic in order to use my 1@1 TK Pulse (which I'm hoping to raise soon; 1@1 = bleh).
What I find more weird is the number of things I've forgotten I actually know how to do until it comes up in game. I had completely forgotten that I was, in fact, trained in First Aid until MJ mentioned it the other day, then I was all "oh yeah, I have ceritification in that - it's all coming back to me" and I remembered all those classes I took, and damn if I don't think I could actually still do most of it.
Sun Dec 9 2007 10:23 pm # -
johnosevens
MemberHow many new uses are there for poking things with my mind? Isn't poking someone in the ribs with my mind sort of the same thing as pushing a pencil with my mind? And isn't pushing a chair across the room with my mind the same thing only bigger? Likewise with basically force-pushing a group of mooks off a gangplank - the same but still bigger?
Sun Dec 9 2007 10:47 pm # -
JohnA1nut
MemberIt's thinking like that which will get you nowhere in a hurry. A TK pulse is not a push, it's a nanosecond of simple telekinesis. You can lift, push, pull, twist, turn, anything your little heart desires. I was confused about it for a while (And with all due respect to MJ, he didn't help that much) but yeah, it's very versatile. I used TK pulse to unlock handcuffs once. You can do all kinda things with it.
Sun Dec 9 2007 10:54 pm # -
Graham
MemberThe great thing about telekinetics is they aren't very limited by size. You go from TK Pulse to Simple TK, to Heavy TK, and then you aren't really limited by size or weight. I picked up a gigantic Dutch trading ship, the double-decker bus of ships, using Heavy TK. The limiting factor (and no meta-gaming) is that telekentics like TK pulse have to affect the object as a whole. One of my first experiments with TK pulse was attempting to knock an acorn off a tree. This was impossible however, because TK Pulse cannot affect the part of a whole. When I asked why it didn't work, I was told that it would've been giving force generative powers to a 1@0 psionic skill.
There are lots of ways to come up with new uses; you just have to be creative.
Also, I don't know if you'll be able to knock back the boarding planks if the pirates are already on them, or if they're tied down at the other end. But I'm not a ref, so I don't know that much. Good luck.
Mon Dec 10 2007 2:59 am # -
You mean P4@1, actually; P1@0 is mesmerism.
Mon Dec 10 2007 3:12 am # -
JohnA1nut
MemberRegarding knocking an acorn out of a tree. I was told by someone or other that in a case like that, if the acorn is ready to fall from the tree anyway, you could knock it out. You're not breaking anything per se, not anymore than the wind would break it. The example used was apples. After a while, an apple will fall from the tree on its own. If you TK pulse it, you're not breaking it off the tree, you're just helping it down, much like a stiff breeze could knock it down out of the tree. Of course, I think that's one of those "Referee's Discretion" rules, so don't take my word on it.
Mon Dec 10 2007 3:32 am # -
The acorn was hotly debated, actually. Lemme dig up the link.
It happened during live play, which complicated things, but the discussion starts here and goes through this post, which settles the issue of the acorn; other questions that occurred to me as a result of the whole thing are asked and answered here.
If you'd rather explore telekinesis via a series of experiments during play, feel free to leave those links alone.
Mon Dec 10 2007 4:06 am # -
johnosevens
MemberI get the distinct feeling that exploring it through experimentation in game will just frustrate me, because my views of how TK ought to work probably don't even come close to how it's handled here. (Basically I think making TK Pulse limited to an instantaneous application of force is limited enough. I would've had no problem whatsoever allowing the acorn thing, for instance, "ready to drop" or not. It's a much different thing to /lift/ a Dutch trading ship, after all, than it is to /keep/ it lifted.)
Mon Dec 10 2007 6:53 pm # -
TK fundamentally is not an application of force, at least not in Multiverser, which is why care has to be taken about what can and cannot be done with TK.
Mon Dec 10 2007 8:25 pm # -
johnosevens
MemberThat seems to defy physics. In order for something to move, it has to have a force applied to it, or it remains at rest, as per Newton's First Law. Even if it's just energy induced by the application of will, it's still moving, so it still has a net force being applied to it, work is still being done to it, and so on...
I could turn this into a huge long-winded debate, but I probably wouldn't win, or at least I'm feeling cynical enough tonight to believe I wouldn't win, which probably gives me huge situational penalties...
Mon Dec 10 2007 10:14 pm # -
I made the mistake of replying to your other thread first. I'll reiterate here: of course it defies physics. It's not Tech, it's Psi. Perhaps the object exerts a force, but none is being applied to it. Creation of energy? That's fine. Creation of matter is also psionically possible, just not with TK.
I'll put more detail in the other thread.
Mon Dec 10 2007 11:13 pm # -
Graham
MemberOne concept of Telekinetic flight is that you move the universe relative to yourself, instead of moving a smaller object relative to yourself or by moving yourself relative to the universe.
Psionics never even pretended to obey or care about the laws of physics. Its very existence defies several logical concepts, let alone specific skills.
Tue Dec 11 2007 1:42 am # -
One concept of Telekinetic flight is that you move the universe relative to yourself, instead of moving a smaller object relative to yourself or by moving yourself relative to the universe.
It's a relatively uncommon concept (MJ favors "moving yourself relative to the universe," for several reasons including simplicity), but it happens to be the first one that Graham encountered. The folk in Men of Psience are a pretty uncommon bunch, and I tried to make their worldview as non-technological as my tech-skewed mind could manage.
Edit: didn't see your request there, O'Sevens, sorry.
Tue Dec 11 2007 2:09 am # -
On the subject of "new uses" for TK Pulse, I'll only mention in passing that the Psientist, famed as he is for devising such things, came up with quite a variety of ways to use a TK pulse in the field.
Oh, and no, you're not about to face pirates. The dice have decreed a different fate for you.
--M. J. Young
Tue Dec 11 2007 4:56 am #
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