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Spirits versus Souls

(23 posts) (5 voices)

Started 2 years ago by M. J. Young
Latest reply from JohnA1nut

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Maxx

M. J. Young
Moderator

This is barely on topic, so I'm dropping it in the Off Topic forum, despite the fact that it arose in connection with a game. It has to do with the specific use of the words "spirit" and "soul" in my vocabulary, which happens to be the vocabulary used in writing the Multiverser rules, so it matters to understanding those rules.

The problem arises because the Greeks have a word, psyche, which we often translate "soul" but sometimes translate "mind". Plato co-opted this word within his philosophy. Platonism holds that there is a realm of "real" "absolute" "ideas" or "ideals" which is the better place, and that the material world is comprised of what are in essence copies attempting to reach the level of that reality. That is, we have trees, but in the ideal world there exists "tree", which is the perfect object of which "trees" are imperfect copies. Within Platonism, then, the "soul" is the thinking and feeling individual that comes from the "real" world of ideals, and in many forms of Platonic Gnosticism that "soul" is trapped in a corrupt material body, and needs to escape to the better world of ideals first through knowledge and then ultimately through death. Greek has a separate word for spirit, pneuma. Both words etymologically derive from concepts of air or breath, and thus that which is non-corporeal.

The problem is complicated because Hebrew also have words we render spirit and soul, and its word for Spirit also derives from and is very close to the word for breath or wind. However, the earliest use of the word says that God formed a material body and "breathed" or "spirited" into it the "breath" or "spirit" of life, and that when this happened man "became a living soul" or "being". When Alexander the Great's scholars were translating the Hebrew into Greek (the ancient translation of the Old Testament known as the Septuagint), they rendered the word "spirit" with their "pneuma" and the word "soul" with their "psyche". But a Hebrew soul is not a non-corporeal part of a person; it is a person, and absent both a material body and a non-material spirit it does not exist.

Not all Christian theologians follow this Hebrew formulation, as the Greek formulation entered our theological history very early (most of the theologians in the second through fifth century were trained in Greek philosophy at some level). This leads to a great deal of confusion concerning what it is that the New Testament means when it uses the word "soul", and there are many Christians who have a very neo-Platonic view of the matter, that there is this ephemeral something within us that is our real person, our bodies being shells we ultimately escape. The view I think is more consistent with Paul's discussions is that the bodies are temporary structures that are ultimately converted into permanent structures, and that we will never exist as immaterial beings--it is the nature of humanity to be spirits in bodies, which is what I believe the Bible means by the word we render "souls", people, beings, humans.

Because of this, I generally use the word "spirit" to refer to that incorporeal part of a person and the word "body" to refer to the rest. If I use the word "soul", what I mean by it is an entire united person. I also recognize that this "soul" is so closely joined that it is not easy to determine where the spirit is divided from the body--all our thoughts, feelings, sensations, desires, and much more are combinations of physical and spiritual elements.

The soul thus exists as the person, united. The part that is able to leave the body is the spirit, and when the spirit is not with the body, the soul does not exist, and the body is for practical purposes "dead", or at best comatose, having no spirit in it.

--M. J. Young

Fri Feb 19 2010 2:17 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

I remember you once told me that I wasn't obeying the "spirit" of something you told me to do. I don't obey spirits, I obey exact words. If you're obeying spirits, you should probably check into a mental institution.

Fri Feb 19 2010 4:02 am #
Tadeusz
Member

A human is an immaterial, perhaps quantum part, with the brain being a quantum receiver and signaller. The immaterial part sends a message, and the brain receives it, and changes said message through the body's filters.

Thus you have someone with low blood sugar trying to be reasonable. His immaterial part says 'be calm', and his body says 'scream in fury', and what comes out is a strangled sort of barely on the edge vocalization.

When MJ got mindswapped with Fluffy the Verser Bunny, he found he had to line up his thoughts in more disciplined fashion because the bunnies brain was smaller than he was used too. MJ was trying to run Windows 7 on a 286 used to DOS so he had to be efficient and straightforward to get anything done.

Getting back too my little story...Now the brain notices the reaction of the people around him who are taken aback by the low blood sugar guy's unreasonable attitude, and so the brain sends this data to the immaterial part, and the immaterial part changes its plans and says "REALLY calm down." The physical brain then accepts this message and without thinking about it consciously the man breathes deep a couple times to help his body calm down.

I once double dosed on Tavist D, a sinus med. Wow. I was vibrating. And I so wanted to punch someone. But I wasn't mad at anyone. My brain and my body were sending two different messages. Now, if someone had insulted me, my brain (grrrrr, how dare he!) and my body (Fight!) would have been in agreement,a nd perhaps I would have gone for the haymaker. Perhaps.

One doc who did brain experiments would touch a part of the brain with an electrode, and the patient's arm would move. However, all the patients would say "I didn't do it." Who is the 'I' they are referring too?

As a side note, that offers an interesting way of doing certain psionic powers. You're totally in control of your own mind, but your body is not listening. You shout to people to run away as your arm pulls a gun out of your pocket...

Anyways, I'm not sure if my theory agrees with the Biblical understanding...

Fri Feb 19 2010 4:29 am #
Max
Member

To M. J. Young,

So by your definition, a dead person does not have a soul but can have a spirit right?

Can the person have a soul if only a little part of the spirit goes out of the body and the other part stays in the body (if that person have the ability to split the spirit)?

Can a non-local connection of the spirit with the body be called to have a soul?

*****

To JohnA1nut,

I don't obey spirits

What does "I" in this case means?
Does "I" mean the body, the mind, the soul, the combination of these or some other entity?
What about obeying your own spirit?

*****

To Tadeusz,

A human is an immaterial, perhaps quantum part, with the brain being a quantum receiver and signaller. The immaterial part sends a message, and the brain receives it, and changes said message through the body's filters.

Interesting concept.

However, all the patients would say "I didn't do it." Who is the 'I' they are referring too?

Probably the mind of the person. Then again, what is a mind of a person?
Is this what is called the soul?
Can the mind be called the spirit of a person?

Fri Feb 19 2010 10:15 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

That was a wisecrack Max. Personally, I think MJ is needlessly arguing the semantics of two words which mean exactly the same thing. It's like saying there's a difference between an idiot and a moron. There's no difference, and if there is, only someone who writes dictionaries for a living would even know or care what it was.

Fri Feb 19 2010 10:31 am #
M. J. Young
Moderator

I remember you once told me that I wasn't obeying the "spirit" of something you told me to do. I don't obey spirits, I obey exact words. If you're obeying spirits, you should probably check into a mental institution.

John, Are you being intentionally antagonistic, or do you really not know the difference between the "spirit" of words and spirits?

Anyways, I'm not sure if my theory agrees with the Biblical understanding.

Eric, I won't swear that my understanding is the only "biblical" one. I've a close colleage who teaches at Pepperdine who is a "monochotomist" (to my "dichotomist", as against the "trichotomist" view of three distinct parts), and there are many trichotomists out there whom I respect. I'm persuaded of the dichotomist position, but I won't be so arrogant as to say some other view is wrong.

So by your definition, a dead person does not have a soul but can have a spirit right?

A person is "dead" if his spirit and body are completely disconnected; that means he ceases to have a soul. Because we accept (the fiction) that out-of-body experiences allow a spirit to leave a body, the conclusion is that the body is effectively "comatose". The soul must still exist in some sense, but the sensory functions are cut.

More specifically, it is inherent in the OBE skills that the spirit is disconnected from the body. There are ways to emulate OBE in which the spirit goes nowhere--e.g., a projected full clairsensory presence--but if you want the spirit to leave the body, you can't also have the spirit stay with the body.

Can the person have a soul if only a little part of the spirit goes out of the body and the other part stays in the body (if that person have the ability to split the spirit)?

Splitting the spirit would be fatal; you would verse out, I think.

Can a non-local connection of the spirit with the body be called to have a soul?

I'd have to say yes, the soul still exists, but it is temporarily divided. There was a Greek concept that when your body slept it meant your spirit was wandering somewhere else, and thus the concept of awakening in Greek has some connection to the spirit returning to the body. (I don't remember that precisely, but it's something I encountered somewhere in my studies.) But that's not what's happening here.

I think MJ is needlessly arguing the semantics of two words which mean exactly the same thing. It's like saying there's a difference between an idiot and a moron.

O.K., you were just being antagonistic. I don't need that.

However, no one who discusses the metaphysical structure of human beings uses "spirit" and "soul" synonymously. Trichotomists (Eric appears to be one) hold that the soul is a non-corporeal portion of a person, but a spirit is a distinct and higher non-corporeal portion of the same person, and that the verse about "dividing between soul and spirit" means figuring out what belongs to which. Dichotomists (me) hold that a spirit is the only non-corporeal part, and the soul is the combination of the corporeal and the non-corporeal, the total person. Monochotomists believe that "spirit" and "body" are terms used to discuss parts of a "soul", but that they cannot be separated from each other and are more semantic tools for identifying distinguishable aspects of our reality than realities in themselves--that is, you don't have a spirit in a body, you have a soul in which part is called spirit and part is called body, just like you can say that part of you is called thoughts and part is called feelings and part is called will, but you can't really identify those as distinct parts except as theoretical constructs.

So those two words almost never mean the same thing--not even in Original Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, where it specifically states that humans, dwarfs, gnomes, halflings, and half-orcs have souls but not spirits (and so can be resurrected but not reincarnated) while elves have spirits but not souls (and so can be reincarnated but not resurrected).

And an idiot is someone who is completely limited to his own ideas and can't or won't accept knowledge from others, while a moron is someone who lacks some quality which in the original language (Greek) would be "flavor" such that he cannot act wisely or prudently because he does not understand wisdom or prudence.

Words are my province, John. I know the difference between "further" and "farther". Misuse of various homonyms irks you. Misuse of specific words irks me. In this case, I am not so much irked by varying uses of the words "spirit" and "soul" as I am concerned that in not having a common definition we will fail to communicate concerning game events in which aspects of a person are being distinguished.

Of course, if you want to take over running Maxx' game, you can use whatever words you wish to communicate with him about it.

--M. J. Young

Sat Feb 20 2010 3:18 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

I remember you once told me that I wasn't obeying the "spirit" of something you told me to do. I don't obey spirits, I obey exact words. If you're obeying spirits, you should probably check into a mental institution.

The event in question was that you told me not to multiple post in a thread. I edited a post a half-dozen or so times. You said I wasn't obeying the "spirit" of the no multiple posting order. I don't obey the "spirit" of an order, I obey the exact wording of it. You told me not to multiple post, you didn't say a word about multiple editing. You said in game, you grant genie wishes by exact wording, not by the "spirit" of it. What's the difference?

John, Are you being intentionally antagonistic, or do you really not know the difference between the "spirit" of words and spirits?

No, I was being a smartass. If that qualifies as intentionally antagonistic, then yes.

However, no one who discusses the metaphysical structure of human beings uses "spirit" and "soul" synonymously.

And how many people do that? To your average layman, they mean exactly the same thing.

Words are my province, John. I know the difference between "further" and "farther". Misuse of various homonyms irks you.

And you made your point clear here. I still think it's too fine a distinction to make for most people though.

And with that, I'm going to stay out of this thread. I have nothing meaningful to contribute.

Sat Feb 20 2010 3:31 am #
Tadeusz
Member

I was raised a trichotomist, but I think I'm moving toward a dichotomist viewpoint. What I described above, if I were more precise, sounds pretty dichotomist.

I should have rephrased my first sentence to say that a human is an immaterial part and a material part.

BTW, the quantum idea offers another answer for clairvoyance and such than an OBE. 1)The universe is a holograph and as such each part has a degraded whole of the universe. 2)The brain is a quantum receiver and signaller. 3)The universe is a quantum effect. 4)You can train your brain to affect more than your quantum spirit, or receive more than information from your spirit, but from the universe at a small point (and since a small point has the same basic data at each point, then you can tap into the whole of the universe in a degraded way).

By this way of thinking precog is not much more difficult than clairvoyance as they're basically the same thing with precog having an added time dimension.

Some people argue that the Observer Effect, or the Heisenberg Effect is this effect of the brain. If so, this is proof that the brain can affect the material universe on an atomic particle scale. The theory would go if you can scale this up, you could have a larger effect. Get info, and then move on to TK.

Sat Feb 20 2010 5:30 am #
WilliamTWodium
Member

There are ways to emulate OBE in which the spirit goes nowhere--e.g., a projected full clairsensory presence--but if you want the spirit to leave the body, you can't also have the spirit stay with the body.

You might could save yourself a load of trouble with Maxx by assuming that this is actually what he's attempting, and he's only calling it an out-of-body skill.

Sat Feb 20 2010 6:07 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

I said I wouldn't post here again if I had nothing meaningful to contribute. It turns out I do have something meaningful to contribute. I actually had an out of body experience once. I was sleeping in bed, and I was suddenly floating up towards the ceiling, and I could see myself lying in bed. I was just floating up there for a little while looking at myself. You can dismiss it as a dream if you choose, and I'm not sure that I don't, but here's the clincher. Right before I went back into my body, I turned sideways at a 90 degree angle to my body. When I woke up, I was laying sideways in my bed at a 90 degree angle to how I went to sleep. Maybe I was just rolling around in bed and dreaming, but it never happened before or since.

Sat Feb 20 2010 6:29 pm #
M. J. Young
Moderator

You said in game, you grant genie wishes by exact wording, not by the "spirit" of it. What's the difference?

The difference is that you and I, and hopefully each of us and the other participants on this board, have personal relationships with each other which are built on understanding each other and choosing to compromise--to do what we think would be preferred by the other instead of running roughshod over their feelings. A djinni granting a wish is an unwilling slave forced into service who must do what you ask but need not do what you want. Similarly, a ring of wishes cannot interpret what you want but only what you say.

As a sort of obtuse example, we've talked about Terminator 2. We agree that if the T-1000 had killed John Conner, he would not be able to send the T-800 back to protect himself, but if the T-1000 failed there would be no need for the protection. I've also suggested that John sent the T-800 back to protect not himself but his mother Sarah. But if that's the case, why did he not send the T-800 back with the programmed instruction to save Sarah? An easy answer is that the easiest way for the T-800 to protect Sarah is to capture John and give him to the T-1000. Thus John has to establish the instructions such that the T-800 will not consider John expendable but will still attempt to save Sarah. That's the danger of wishing without considering what you're saying.

Scott, I certainly considered a full clairsensory presence, but I've not taken that route for two reasons. The less significant is that Maxx is specifically describing it as his spirit traveling elsewhere. The more significant is that I'm aware that his reasons for doing this are related to the use of another skill (I'm sure I could find which one at a glance, but I don't yet have the character sheets open) in which his actual presence at the object matters--come to think, its one of the retrocog skills--he has to be "in the place" he is trying to read, so he wants to be there in spirit but not in body. He probably could do it with a full sensory presence, and he's going to take a penalty either way for not being fully present, but the spirit presence is going to be a smaller penalty than the sensory presence.

--M. J. Young

Sat Feb 20 2010 11:45 pm #
WilliamTWodium
Member

Yeah, I'd probably do it anyway without really telling him, but your way works too (obviously).

Sun Feb 21 2010 1:19 am #
Max
Member

actual presence at the object matters--come to think, its one of the retrocog skills--he has to be "in the place" he is trying to read, so he wants to be there in spirit but not in body. He probably could do it with a full sensory presence, and he's going to take a penalty either way for not being fully present, but the spirit presence is going to be a smaller penalty than the sensory presence.

I wonder how you are going to calculate the penalty for various situation.
Example of situation:
1) Partial sensory presence (one of more sense with various intensity)
2) Full sensory presence
3) Spiritual presence
4) Spiritual presence with link (which may dull one of more sense with various intensity)
5) Full presence but with one or more sense dulled with various intensity
6) Dimensional Gate

*****

If someone have a brain injury, does the soul change but the spirit remains the same or do both soul and spirit change?

If a person with a brain injury changes their personality significantly, can you say that person spirit is the same as the previous one?

What define who a person really is even after significant change to the personality due to brain injury?

*****

the quantum idea offers another answer for clairvoyance and such than an OBE.

I also thought of hidden variable, super-determinism or non-locality might play some part in that too.

Sun Feb 21 2010 6:52 pm #
M. J. Young
Moderator

I wonder how you are going to calculate the penalty for various situation.
Example of situation:
1) Partial sensory presence (one of more sense with various intensity)
2) Full sensory presence
3) Spiritual presence
4) Spiritual presence with link (which may dull one of more sense with various intensity)
5) Full presence but with one or more sense dulled with various intensity
6) Dimensional Gate

I would not regard 5 as different from full presence, that is, if you mean physically present but with some clairvoyant link to somewhere else interfering with your sensory presence here. The presence of your spirit would be the same whether or not you had a sensory link elsewhere, but less than the physical presence. Sensory presence is clairsentient, and thus would be less than spiritual presence, but the fewer senses connected to the location the greater the penalty. Again I wouldn't penalize your presence for having dual sensory targets--for example, you can see what is in front of your eyes and see clairsentiently at the same time. I would, rather, penalize for trying to get too many simultaneous images (it is the sensory presence that is penalized, not the aspect of presence itself). That should give you a thumbnail; I don't think I can give you more than that unless you actually do something.

In psionics, no distinction is made between brain problems and mind problems; in magic, the mind is generally regarded part of the spirit. I am inclined to think that spirits can be harmed and can grow just as bodies can. Thus I would say that brain damage which impacts the "mind" impacts the "spirit" in some way. It is the same spirit, just as it is the same body, and thus it is the same person, even though there has been an abrupt personality change. Personalities change constantly; it is the abruptness that is most notable here.

--M. J. Young

Sun Feb 21 2010 10:20 pm #
Max
Member

I am inclined to think that spirits can be harmed and can grow just as bodies can.

If a starfish organism is split into two (by fragmentation) then regenerates into two different individual, does this mean the spirit is split into two as well?

What will happen to spirit or soul to each of the below case:
1) Multiple personality disorder (Does each of personality have its own spirit?)
2) Possession or accession (Does the spirit fused together or will they be separated by something?)
3) Spirit fusion or de-fusion (Can two spirits become one and then separate?)
4) Going through a (spiritual) dimension gate (Can the spirit presence be said to be split at two places but still connected at the gate?)

Wed Feb 24 2010 1:02 pm #
JohnA1nut
Member

Did you see Child's Play 3? Chucky gets reborn when his blood is dropped into a vat of plastic which is used to make the dolls. His soul, or spirit, or whatever, gets into the first doll made from that vat of plastic. The thing is, ALL of the dolls made from that vat of plastic have Chucky's blood, and by the logic of the movie, all contain his soul. (They say "soul" in the movie!!!!!!) Shouldn't there have been hundreds of killer dolls running around then?

Wed Feb 24 2010 1:38 pm #
M. J. Young
Moderator

If a starfish organism is split into two (by fragmentation) then regenerates into two different individual, does this mean the spirit is split into two as well?
Since I have no starfish player characters, I don't need to be able to answer that at the moment.

O.K., but then, it might be possible for a person to be duplicated in some way. The teleporter accident that resulted in the existence of two William Thomas Rikers in Star Trek Next Generation is an example. At that point, it's up to the referee to decide whether under the specific circumstances of this situation in the present world the spirit is duplicated or some other disembodied spirit takes possession of the empty body.

What will happen to spirit or soul to each of the below case:
1) Multiple personality disorder (Does each of personality have its own spirit?)

This is looking at the question backwards. If there were two spirits in the body, they might manifest as multiple personality disorder; but multiple personality disorder can be a disease of the spirit that destabilizes its own identity.

2) Possession or accession (Does the spirit fused together or will they be separated by something?)

I admit ignorance of what you mean by "accession" here. In "possession", there are two spirits involved, the one which is in control not the one to whom the body naturally belongs. The other spirit might be fighting for control, subdued in some unconscious state, or moved to some other location such as an inanimate object (called a "jar" sometimes). There is also some variation in what the other spirit actually knows about the circumstance, but it always knows the direction to its own body.

3) Spirit fusion or de-fusion (Can two spirits become one and then separate?)

I don't like to say that something can't happen, but I will say that I don't know how this could happen and don't see it happening, at least in my games.

4) Going through a (spiritual) dimension gate (Can the spirit presence be said to be split at two places but still connected at the gate?)

I don't see why that's likely, so maybe I'm not understanding the question. If the spirit passes through a gate, it is on the other side of the gate. We might envision such a gate, as we might envision a wormhole, in that as the object passes through the gate it exists in what we think are two separate locations, the origin and the destination, and thus that it is "cut in half" by the gate. That, though, is not the way wormholes or dimensional portals work, as far as I can tell: the object is still whole, and the space on either side of the portal is connected by means of the portal. Were the portal to shut abruptly while something or someone was passing through it, well, that would be similar at least metaphorically to the portcullis suddenly dropping while you're standing in the gate. Either you wound up on one side or the other, or you didn't.

--M. J. Young

Wed Feb 24 2010 10:56 pm #
M. J. Young
Moderator

At that point, it's up to the referee to decide whether under the specific circumstances of this situation in the present world the spirit is duplicated or some other disembodied spirit takes possession of the empty body.

Let me not imply that these are the only possibilities. It is not unimaginable that one spirit would be controlling two bodies, and it would remain to be seen whether that spirit could sort out separate instructions for each of the bodies--probably all bod skills rolled, most with penalties, and typical botches and some failures indicating that the wrong body moved. It is also possible that one of the bodies is simply dead and unrevivable.

--M. J. Young

Wed Feb 24 2010 10:58 pm #
Max
Member

the spirit is duplicated

If the spirit is duplicated, what will happen if one of the spirit dies?
Will both of them be versed out because of the connection or can a duplicated spirit be free of scriff effect?

I admit ignorance of what you mean by "accession" here.

Sorry, there was (probably) a spelling mistake there but I do not know what the real spelling is. What I meant was close to the act of possession but in this case the possessing spirit are augmented to the original soul (or used to help the original soul).

There is also some variation in what the other spirit actually knows about the circumstance, but it always knows the direction to its own body.

Is this body direction sense exist in all spirit in Multiverser?
Can there be a situation where the body direction sense is blocked by some barrier or jamming device?

It is not unimaginable that one spirit would be controlling two bodies, and it would remain to be seen whether that spirit could sort out separate instructions for each of the bodies

That really reminds me about the mind fusion between Lelach and Morach.
Is mental fusion (like the one that happen between Lelach and Morach) the same as spiritual fusion?
I wonder what happen to their spirit back then.

It is also possible that one of the bodies is simply dead and unrevivable.

An empty body (without spirit) may also cause the body to fall into coma, create a spiritual void that may give birth to new soul (like a new born baby) or attract other spirits according to the situation the body is put in.

Thu Feb 25 2010 7:01 pm #
M. J. Young
Moderator

If the spirit is duplicated, what will happen if one of the spirit dies?
Will both of them be versed out because of the connection or can a duplicated spirit be free of scriff effect?
If the spirit is duplicated and the body is duplicated, we probably have two separate people who can diverge from each other; the duplicate individual is no more the original than a divergent self from another universe would be. Thus they are completely independent of each other apart from having shared the same history and once been united, and what happens to each is unknown to the other. It's not different from amoebas dividing, but more complex.

What I meant was close to the act of possession but in this case the possessing spirit are augmented to the original soul (or used to help the original soul).

If the outside spirit is controlling, then it is a form of possession; if it is cooperating, then they would be treated as separate spirits. I suppose you have some complications with symbiotic linkers (under the bod rules), in that it is possible for the two to meld into one (Dak in Star Trek, the nicer of the alien symbionts in Stargate); but even in these cases, you have the sense that the two are still discrete despite the merger, and thus you have something more akin to a telepathic cooperative connection through which the two can reach mutual agreement very quickly. That's a guess, though; it would depend on the details of the situation. At no time, though, would I say that either spirit ceased to exist by becoming part of the other; the nearest I could get to that is that a spirit injected its knowledge into another spirit and then died. But Multiverser isn't really about what happens in the spirit realm, so there are a lot of gaps there.

Is this body direction sense exist in all spirit in Multiverser?
Can there be a situation where the body direction sense is blocked by some barrier or jamming device?

I don't need to know the answers to these questions; no verser would ever be able to conduct experiments to determine them. However, the spirit is the absolute possession of the body and cannot be disowned, and thus if the body verses out the spirit goes with it, and the spirit of a verser can always sense the scriff to his own possessions, which includes the body. So you can't isolate a verser's spirit from its body in that sense, although you can use various powers to impede its ability to reunite.

Is mental fusion (like the one that happen between Lelach and Morach) the same as spiritual fusion?

One has to be very careful about drawing conclusions from botches; however, what happened at that point was that your minds became fully linked such that all mental process in either mind occurred in both. That retains the independence of the two minds but makes it very difficult to find the dividing line.

An empty body (without spirit) may also cause the body to fall into coma, create a spiritual void that may give birth to new soul (like a new born baby) or attract other spirits according to the situation the body is put in.

I think I had already listed those possibilities, and was adding this one to them.

--M. J. Young

Thu Feb 25 2010 11:03 pm #
JohnA1nut
Member

Something I was thinking about. The way I understand it is that the body is a shell. A carcass. The soul is the immortal breath of life given from God. One so fragile, the other impossible to kill. Joined, they make a person. Is that pretty much what you're saying, except you're saying spirit instead of soul, and soul instead of person? Not arguing, just wondering if I understood this all along, but just used different words.

Your soul can be reborn I think. Kind of like versing and getting The Zygote Experience every time. Your soul learns from being reborn. MJ, your soul is older than most. The Multiverser game system is remarkably similar to God's true creation. At least in terms that humans can understand. Just my own personal thoughts. God told me part of the reason I was made psychotic. It was because The Psychotic can better communicate with God, and is more open to His leading, without even realizing it. If it's any consolation MJ, Multiverser does much better in your next incarnation. First your soul had to learn humility. Either that, or it's all a psychotic hallucination.

(Doing Therapy)

Tue Mar 2 2010 11:20 am #
M. J. Young
Moderator

I hope you won't be offended if I go for the last option. It's not my impression that those who were closest to God in history were psychotic--Jesus certainly does not appear to have been so.

--M. J. Young

Wed Mar 3 2010 1:44 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

I hope you won't be offended if I go for the last option. It's not my impression that those who were closest to God in history were psychotic--Jesus certainly does not appear to have been so.

Yeah, that's why The Psychotic gets to do it, actually. No one, including himself, will completely believe what he says. The last thing God needs is for me to turn into another cult leader who claims to speak for Him. Either that, or it's a psychotic hallucination.

(Doing Therapy)

Wed Mar 3 2010 2:26 am #

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