Gaming Outpost Discussions

1. 

   M. J. Young
   Moderator

   You cannot know what the future would have been had you not arrived.

   Ah, but I can and do know that it would have happened whether I was there or not. My presence changes nothing.

   Which proves you learn nothing from experience. You were in Columbus, Ohio, the city of your own birth. It was not the same place you had been moments before, and the fact that it was a few years in the future did not explain the differences. That should have alerted you to the fact that being in a familiar place does not mean it is the same place, or that the same events will occur or have occurred. For all you knew, the Japanese might already have had atomic weapons, and been planning to obliterate most of Hawaii. Or they might not be coming. Then again, you could be in something like a holodeck simulation, none of it real at all.

   You make your best guess and go with it.

   You speak of every other NPC who did not go to the castle--by which I assume you mean the aging blacksmith for whom you apprenticed, his wife, the blind beggar in the village, the children. You do not know how many indigs tried and failed, or died, trying to save the princesses. You only know that no one succeeded. That means you don't know how many lives you might have saved had you taken action before you did.

   Yeah, maybe there are players who say, "I see the story, let me follow it." But then, even they wouldn't do it if part of that wasn't also "If I follow the story, I might be the hero."

   --M. J. Young

   Fri Dec 2 2011 1:33 am #
2. 

   JohnA1nut
   Member

   For all you knew, the Japanese might already have had atomic weapons, and been planning to obliterate most of Hawaii. Or they might not be coming. Then again, you could be in something like a holodeck simulation, none of it real at all.

   You've said that there's a town not far from you where you've had three cars break down, never to run again. You've also said that you are hesitant to enter and even avoid this town if at all possible.

   Why is that? Surely a Mensa member and college graduate doesn't believe that the town is cursed specifically to make his cars break down. Rationally and intelligently, you know it's just a coincidence. Yet, you still avoid the town. Why is that? Because it's an irrational fear. No reason based in fact for it, it just is. You shouldn't be afraid to enter that town, no matter how many cars break down there. You know intelligently that the town had nothing to do with it. It's your irrational fear.

   Many, many moons ago, I got it into my head that it was a 100% certainty that the United States would lose WW2 if Pearl Harbor were not completely destroyed. After all this time of talking about it, I see that it (probably) has no basis in reality. However, it is still my irrational fear. It's also the reason we're still talking about it.

   The point is MJ, I'll think it's a good idea to warn Pearl Harbor the day you fearlessly go out of your way to drive through that town at every opportunity.

   Yeah, maybe there are players who say, "I see the story, let me follow it." But then, even they wouldn't do it if part of that wasn't also "If I follow the story, I might be the hero."

   "I didn't want to be called a hero. I just wanted to live."
   Fernando Parrado, member of the Uruguayan rugby team which crashed in the Andes Mountains in 1972. See also the movie and book "Alive". He was one of the two members who breached the Andes Mountains to get help and save the lives of his 14 remaining friends. In other words, a hero.

   Fri Dec 2 2011 4:12 am #
3. 

   JohnA1nut
   Member

   Two

   You make your best guess and go with it.

   Then, by not warning them, I would have been doing exactly this. The USA on our world won WW2 after the destruction of Pearl Harbor. Best guess, this world's USA will too.

   Give me one good reason NOT to think that.

   You only know that no one succeeded. That means you don't know how many lives you might have saved had you taken action before you did.

   I'm sorry, but the adage "If one life is saved it's worth the cost" is completely bogus. How many lives would be saved by limiting motor vehicle ownership strictly to emergency services? Would you think it was worth the cost?

   Could I have saved lives by going sooner? Perhaps, but it wouldn't have been worth it to me. They knew the risk of failure was death.

   (Doing Therapy)

   Fri Dec 2 2011 12:52 pm #
4. 

   Jhiaxus
   Member

   I have repeatedly said, God helps those that help themselves. My line of thinking is quite clear. I rely on myself, and no one else in life, in the verse where everything is possible, I call apon a God, only in dire situations. I don't think anyone can dispute, that the way I live my life, my playstyle, or my character deviate very much from those tenants. I make exceptions for kids, who haven't been given a choice or aren't old enough to make their own decisions. If you are an adult, I have no obligation to help or hurt you based on anything other than how you treat me.

   Fri Dec 2 2011 7:41 pm #
5. 

   kyler
   Member

   How many lives would be saved when the surgeon has an accident at work and his on-call replacement doesn't have a motor vehicle to drive to the hospital?

   How many lives would be saved when all the people who ordinarily would get a ride from someone else now need to call an ambulance (and wait for it to arrive, which would actually be on average longer due to the fact that there is a higher demand for ambulances)?

   How many lives would be saved when we no longer have shipping trucks, therefore medical supplies are no longer shipped?

   How many lives would be saved when instead of rushing to the pharmacy to fill the prescription I hadn't realized ran out I need to call an ambulance since I'll never make it in time?

   Yes. It seems that limiting motor vehicle usage only to emergency services would save a lot of lives.

   We haven't even touched on the fact that just because I can't drive a motor vehicle doesn't mean I won't be in the street. Could be walking, biking, skateboarding, rollerblading, horseback riding -- no matter which I'm doing, it's probably going to take me longer to get out of the way than it would if I were in a car.

   Would you propose getting rid of the gasoline generally? If not, it's very easy to hook up a horizontal shaft engine to a bicycle; if so, it's nothing but a thing to alter the engine and brew your own fuel in the basement. And hey, in this alternate reality they'll probably make alcoholic beverages illegal -- think of all the lives that'll save! -- so you can make fuel and sell moonshine.

   Maybe you could brew the alcohol from hemp. Hit two birds with one stoned.

   Tue Dec 6 2011 3:46 am #
6. 

   JohnA1nut
   Member

   Yes. It seems that limiting motor vehicle usage only to emergency services would save a lot of lives.

   How many people are killed each year in car crashes? Put that number against what you put down. Even if it was exactly as you describe, I bet the net effect would still be lives saved.

   Still not worth doing to save the lives though.

   (Doing Therapy)

   Wed Dec 7 2011 4:23 am #
7. 

   JohnA1nut
   Member

   Two

   Maybe you could brew the alcohol from hemp. Hit two birds with one stoned.

   Actually, you could make the hemp into fuel, if I'm not mistaken. Run the resin through a fractionating tower. One thing that will come off is called Hash Oil. I don't know very much about it, but I do believe that it's flammable. If it's flammable, an engine can be made to run on it. Be it steam, internal combustion, or something not yet invented.

   And the best part is, there's no problem with pollution. Everyone is more than happy to breathe the exhaust.

   (Doing Therapy)

   Wed Dec 7 2011 8:51 am #
8. 

   JohnA1nut
   Member

   Adam, you believe you weren't being sadistic because there was so much worse you could have done. No argument there. I'm sure you could have done much worse. However, the definition of sadism is not how badly you hurt the person, but if you took pleasure in it. You've admitted that you did.

   If you use the definition that you could have hurt them even more, then no one is ever being sadistic, because there's really no limit to how badly you could hurt someone. The people of The Spanish Inquisition never hurt anyone as badly as they could have.

   I just wanted to clear that up for you.

   (Doing Therapy)

   Thu Dec 8 2011 11:28 am #
9. 

   Jhiaxus
   Member

   I took as much pleasure in hurting your fictional character, in a meaningless game, as you do leeching off of society and smoking weed. When you spend the time you do posting here, making arguments, into contributing to society, I will revisit any statements you make in your pseudo-psychological analysis. Call me crazy, but I don't accept a mental health diagnosis, from a crazy person, thanks. :P

   Thu Dec 8 2011 6:09 pm #
10. 

    JohnA1nut
    Member

    I took as much pleasure in hurting your fictional character, in a meaningless game, as you do leeching off of society and smoking weed.

    Then you must have REALLY ENJOYED IT you sadistic bastard.

    Thu Dec 8 2011 11:21 pm #
11. 

    JohnA1nut
    Member

    Call me crazy, but I don't accept a mental health diagnosis, from a crazy person, thanks. :P

    How many times do I have to tell you? I'm mentally ill, not crazy. The difference is if you're aware of your own problems. I am aware of my own mental problems. Are you aware of your own mental problems Adam?

    (Doing Therapy)

    Fri Dec 9 2011 6:03 pm #
12. 

    Jhiaxus
    Member

    Call me crazy, but I don't accept a mental health diagnosis, from a crazy person, thanks. :P

    Fri Dec 9 2011 8:28 pm #
13. 

    JohnA1nut
    Member

    "Call me crazy? Man, you make my day. My state of residence is disarray."
    DC Talk.

    (Doing Therapy)

    Fri Dec 9 2011 8:32 pm #
14. 

    JohnA1nut
    Member

    MJ, do you have any idea what it's like to have irrational rage? I really hope not. It's not powered by a lack of understanding. I understand perfectly. It's powered by irrational thinking. Irrational logic. I UNDERSTAND EVERYTHING!!!!! It has NOTHING to do with that. It's irrationality. It's blind rage. I really hope you have no idea what it's like.

    The irrational side and the logical side are constantly at war. It's irrationality. Not lack of understanding. I know I'm being irrational. Problem is, when you're irrational, you don't always realize it. That's why it's called Irrationality. I UNDERSTAND PERFECTLY!!!!!! The irrationality is overwhelming sometimes. For some reason, knowing you're being completely irrational doesn't help to overcome it.

    Understanding and irrationality are at war. There's not much I can do about it. Just take it in stride and know that I don't mean it.

    Sat Dec 10 2011 2:12 am #
15. 

    M. J. Young
    Moderator

    Everyone knows what it is like to have irrational rage. We learn to control it and not act on it.

    --M. J. Young

    Sat Dec 10 2011 3:30 am #
16. 

    JohnA1nut
    Member

    That's what I'm trying to do. I'm sorry. I'd give just about anything to take back a lot of the things I've said to you. It's like, in the moment of irrationality, everything seems perfectly reasonable. It seems absolutely right to cuss out one of your most respected friends. I'm gonna beat this. I'm gonna get this straight. I UNDERSTAND EVERYTHING!!! It's irrationality.

    Sat Dec 10 2011 3:48 am #
17. 

    JohnA1nut
    Member

    It never once occurred to you that it was just a coincidence that Final Countdown was about Pearl Harbor, did it? Seriously, I want to know.

    If your only objective was to test my non-involvement philosophy, then perhaps Adam did do the right thing. If I'm in custody, it's easier to warn them than not to. However, if I don't warn them, you still don't know if I'm dedicated. It could just be you picked a world I had sworn not to get involved in. You're no more certain if they're dedicated than with any other opening. In other words, it's not so effective as you're making it sound. And it's certainly NOT the ONLY WAY to put it to the test.

    On the other hand, if your objectives were to tell a good story, have a good time playing, make friends all around, not piss off your player, and not still be talking about it years later, then he most certainly did NOT do the right thing.

    You can say whatever you want about how the crash was my fault, because I'll probably agree with you. That doesn't change the fact that the crash wouldn't have happened if a different opening had been used. Ultimately, it was Adam's fault. There wouldn't have been a jeep crash if there was no jeep and no MP to crash, now would there? Who likes to get arrested? Who likes police? Who likes having a gun shoved in their face? Who likes having a complete stranger coming out of nowhere, giving them orders and more or less kidnapping them? NOBODY!!!!!!!!

    I have very specific reasons for my dislike of police, but there's no one on earth that enjoys being arrested. That's just common sense. Come on, you should have known better than that!!!!! I'm seriously surprised that no one else ever did something like I did. They must not have been playing their characters completely accurately. That's the only explanation I can think of for that. At least I played my character accurately.

    Bottom line, I don't see how any thinking, rational person can even try to argue that Adam "Did the right thing." If you still insist that he did, you hereby lose all rights to complain about anything further that happens. By saying he did the right thing, you're agreeing that the continuing arguments are acceptable to you. That wouldn't have happened with a different opening, now would it?

    If you reply, you do so at your own risk.

    Tue Dec 13 2011 5:48 pm #
18. 

    JohnA1nut
    Member

    More than one post in a row. Read them all.

    God isn't "Perfect" He's just never wrong.

    OOS Dextroland.

    (More intense psychosis therapy. Trust me, you don't want to know more than that.)

    Wed Dec 14 2011 7:02 am #
19. 

    JohnA1nut
    Member

    I think the dice are the reason players don't do more incredibly stupid stuff. The dice are tangible. They represent your chances. I honestly wasn't expecting Adam to actually roll. But I do know I would be doing that.

    I think actually seeing the dice is what stops a lot of gamers from doing really stupid stuff. In a way, that worked perfectly. Out of character, I never for a moment thought the dice would be rolled. In character, I would have been cocky with the cop, and not realize I could crash it. Worked perfectly to get an accurate character portrayal.

    I played my character accurately. For that, credit must be given.

    OOS Dextroland.

    Wed Dec 14 2011 1:03 pm #
20. 

    Nikolaj
    Member

    John, you have to realize your character is just a character and any misfortune it gets is not an attack on you, but on the character you play, which is fictional. Good fiction needs conflict.

    And it is sad that you need(ed) to discuss this in two places at once. This is the old forum, leave it be because it's actually an archive.

    I will not reply on any reply.

    Wed Dec 14 2011 10:59 pm #
21. 

    JohnA1nut
    Member

    I was speaking in character and out.

    In character, (In real life, if you prefer) you're not thinking "50% chance to succeed, 45% chance to fail, 5% chance to botch" Out of character, you see the dice, and it represents that. Maybe it just sounds different to me.

    Thu Dec 15 2011 12:44 am #
22. 

    M. J. Young
    Moderator

    John, this is a long-time issue in gaming. It's probably been a long time since you didn't read my page on ADR's and Surv's, and a long time since I actually read it myself, but it raised these kinds of issues.

    In short, any game that simulates combat is likely to include multiple variables based on character choices--how many times can you attack with this weapon, how likely are you to hit, what is the range of damage you would do if you do hit? Similarly, defenses might be divided according to how much damage you can take, whether you have defenses that reduce damage, and whether you can reduce the chance of being hit.

    The character makes these decisions intuitively. He has used the long sword, the short sword, the battle axe, in practice and in battle. He has learned from use how fast each weapon is, how much damage it does, how well he can use it. Similarly, even though different characters defend differently, we get an impression of who is more likely to walk away from a fight by seeing what happens when they fight.

    The player doesn't have this to the same degree. He sees the dice hit the table; he is given these factors not as intuitively-learned experience but as hard numbers. We might force him to feel it, as it were--learn which weapons are better by seeing how they work in combat, using them over a long period. We can't really give him the practice experience, though, and that's part of it. So instead we give him numbers, and let him work with the numbers--how much more likely am I to hit with this as opposed to that? How much more damage does this do? How many attacks do I get in a minute? If I do the math, which is the better weapon in most situations, and what would make it different?

    So you're right: knowing the math is different from having the experience. On the other hand, the player can't have the experience the same as the character can, so he has to be given the math to translate into the experience.

    Does that make sense?

    --M. J. Young

    Fri Dec 16 2011 2:52 am #
23. 

    JohnA1nut
    Member

    Actually, I was referring to a specific instances of TK pulsing a certain police officer. Whilst reading that action, you were thinking "Flatline bias, low amateur skill, high chance to botch" and mentally declared it a stupid action.

    My character (In real life, if you prefer) knows none of that. He's thinking "At least I can annoy this cop for a few minutes"

    Out of character, it sounded too funny to roll for, so I wasn't thinking of dice at all.

    Those two produced a realistic situation. In character (in real life) cockiness, coupled with out of character ignorance of the game system. If we had been at a table, I stated that action, and the ref told me to pick up the dice, I would have changed my mind on it instantly. That would have made it more real, and produced an unrealistic situation.

    Besides, you said that your characters were always very careful. That means you have NO IDEA what it's really like to be a cocky n00b.

    In my mind though, that crash represents the end of my rookiedom as a player.

    Oh yeah, and you said some time ago "A hundred other players would have run through that particular scenario better because they would not have taken an immediate dislike for the MP that found them." I'm calling BULL on that statement. EVERYONE who gets picked up by an MP takes an immediate dislike for the MP. They might not act on it, but they do. No one likes getting arrested. No one likes having a gun shoved in their face. No one likes to have a guy come out of nowhere and start barking orders that them. No one likes being kidnapped. The only difference between the MP and a kidnapper is the MP is legal. I am seriously surprised that no one ever did something like that before. The only explanation I can come up with is that they weren't really playing their characters accurately. This was my attempt to explain why they weren't playing their characters accurately. I bet a lot more people would do that in real life than would state it at a gaming table. That's half the reason I think that is a crap opening. NOBODY LIKES POLICE!!!! That's just common sense!!! Come on MJ, use that Mensa brain of yours. There is no one on God's green earth that likes being arrested, especially when they don't even know they've committed a crime just by versing in. The reason that has never happened before is because no one else was playing their character completely accurately.

    AT LEAST I PLAYED MY CHARACTER ACCURATELY!!!!!!!!

    Fri Dec 16 2011 3:16 am #
24. 

    M. J. Young
    Moderator

    Besides, you said that your characters were always very careful. That means you have NO IDEA what it's really like to be a cocky n00b.

    Well, that might be true. I started my gaming career behind the screens as a Dungeon Master, and it was a few weeks before I had a character in Metamorphosis Alpha. That was a real learning experience, as the referee decided it was easier to give me amnesia than to create a backstory for me. Then a few weeks later I had a Gamma World character, and that is a terribly dangerous fatal game (E. R. Jones ran it one time, rolled a random encounter, saw a player character killed in seconds, and decided it was much to dangerous a game world for his liking--probably a major reason why he came up with the idea of characters versing out instead of dying). I learned to be very careful. I carried that into other games.

    On the other hand, I am probably relatively careful in reality, so it's hard to say.

    As to liking police, they make me nervous. I've been arrested more than once on various minor problems, and been ticketed more than once. I've also been pulled over for stupid reasons. The most recent was when I was driving out to pick up Evan at his girlfriend's, and as I made the last turn I saw that the car pulling out across the way was a state trooper. When he pulled me over he said that I was hugging the fog line--which I admitted I was, because I knew there was a police car behind me and that it had often happened that police cars pulled out abruptly to pass, so I like to be out of the way--and that my third brake light was out. That latter concerned me, until the next day when I discovered that a '93 Jimmy doesn't have a third brake light. I almost wish he'd given me a ticket for it.

    But I've been in accidents, and it's good to have the police on the scene.

    And when I've been arrested, I've never fought. I have at times wondered what it would take to commit suicide by police weapon, but that's the kind of thing in which I always worry that I would actually live, and so be the worse for it. So if I am arrested, I generally go quietly and hope I can find a way to fix matters once I'm in custody.

    --M. J. Young

    Sat Dec 17 2011 3:27 am #
25. 

    JohnA1nut
    Member

    You assumed that I knew about the bombing. There's a very small, minuscule, tiny, subatomic, infinitesimal part of me that can kind of sort of maybe see some of your reasoning, but seriously. As much as I talk about guns, as many nonsense emails as I write, as much as I talk about random topics, isn't reasonable, just possible, that I would have mentioned an interest in military history before then? I know you're into gaming. You know I'm generous and here to help. Having someone with a vast knowledge of military history and strategy would be a godsend to a game designer. I just did an analysis of a movie based on Pearl Harbor. I have every reason in the world to babble incessantly about it to no end. If I knew the minutia of the attack, don't you think there would have been a bombardment of emails about the bombing? You still don't know me. You don't know me at all. You knew I was interested in TIME TRAVEL!!!!!!!! You had no reason whatsoever to think for a moment that I knew a damn thing about the bombing!!!! If I was interested in the Pearl Harbor bombing and had a vast knowledge of it, wouldn't I have been flooding your inbox with trivial nonsense about it? It proves that you would rather assume something than go with your known facts!!!!!! You don't know me. If you knew me as well as you seem to think, you never would have for a moment thought doing an analysis of Final Countdown meant that I had an interest in Pearl Harbor. You would have known that I have an interest in TIME TRAVEL!!!! Changing the past is a bad thing. A man I've known as Mr. Young instilled that in me. You had no reason whatsoever to think I knew the attack, and every reason in the world to think I WOULDN'T want to warn them!!!! YOU DON'T KNOW ME!!!!

    Seriously, I want an answer. Did it never occur to you that my interest in Final Countdown had nothing whatsoever to do with Pearl Harbor? That it was just a coincidence? Seriously, I want to know. I gotta get this straight. This is my one unanswered question.

    Don't get me wrong, I probably would have sent me there too. Inspired by Final Countdown in a different way. I'm surprised I didn't see it coming. The reason you sent me to Adam was because you thought I knew the attack. I might even have looked for a ref that knew the attack, regardless of whether I thought the player knew it. But, if not for that assumption, you might have been running the game. You might have sent someone else to Adam. You gotta admit, if you had been running it, it might not have gone so badly. I don't think sending a completely newbie gamer to an untested ref was the smartest decision, but given the circumstances, I really can see why. I might have done the same thing. Regardless of intent, the result would have been the same. The point though, is that Mr. Young does not know John "A1nut" Cross nearly as well as he seems to think.

    You're one of my most respected friends. I'd give just about anything, short of selling my soul and a few other things to take back a lot of the things I have said to you. My mom trusts you enough to let you stay at her house should you ever come to Columbus. I really love you. You're too patient, I think. Makes you a target. You don't get rid of the bullies by being a pacifist. I don't argue with Eric. Not for very long, anyway. He might just be better at explaining things. Or it could be something else. THANK YOU for allowing the transfer!!!! If there exists another world which could screw me up like Pearl Harbor, it was probably Terminator. I keep thinking about how I made Sarah suffer and stuff. I can't wait until I'm reincarnated into the life of the John "A1nut" that completes that world. I love you man. Ya know, I know you think about offing yourself. I do too. Part of me wants to die just so I will no longer be a burden to you. There's a part of you that wants to die so you don't have to deal with me, I just know it. We're soulmates, my friend.

    (Doing Therapy)

    Sat Dec 17 2011 4:01 am #
26. 

    JohnA1nut
    Member

    I really thought you were going to see this thing through. All I can say is I think God gave you an endurance test and you failed it. And so close to the end. Whatever happened to "I am obligated to read all emails and forum posts"?

    You've probably figured out by now, that was that email I've been trying to get you to read. You seem to read forum posts and not emails. I told you that if you read it and replied to it, it would end this forever. You doubted me (kind of understandably) but this time, I was prepared to back it up. If you had read and replied to that, you would at this time be reading me giving you public, written permission to block all email communications and my access to the forum if I mentioned this again. Since you didn't read it and reply to it, you're not getting that. Of course, if you do read it and reply to it, you will get that. I am fully prepared to back it up this time. So you see, one way or the other, it will end if you read and reply to that post.

    Ya know what did it? This whole time I've been tapping myself on the forehead and saying "You're not in here!!!" But then, you finally got it through to me. You're also tapping yourself on the forehead and saying "And you're not in HERE!!!!!!"

    (Doing Therapy)

    Mon Dec 19 2011 3:56 am #
27. 

    M. J. Young
    Moderator

    Actually, I only read the first couple sentences of the first of those two forum posts, so I still haven't read it. You've definitely worn down my tolerance for nonsense; but I didn't get terribly angry, I just decided not to read any more nonsense.

    --M. J. Young

    Wed Dec 21 2011 1:28 am #
28. 

    JohnA1nut
    Member

    Those posts are like pantyhose. No Nonsense. You were so close too.......

    Tell me something. How does it feel to drop out of a Marathon 10 feet (two posts?) away from the finish line? Why am I asking you? Because you just did it. You'd know that if you read it.

    I really thought you were stronger than that. I'm disappointed that I was mistaken. You failed your endurance test. And so close to seeing it through too.

    Wed Dec 21 2011 2:08 am #

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