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Types of Bullets

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Started 4 years ago by Tadeusz
Latest reply from Tadeusz

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Tadeusz
Member

I don't have time to go into detail on this, but it occurs to me that DR and SM would be good tools to mimic the effects of various bullets.
This would help alleviate a concern that Jhiaxus expressed, and add more detail to the alway fascinating topic of weapons.
Also, this is a good topic for A1's knowledge base too..

Types of Bullets
================
1. Hardball--Your Basic Bullet. .38 and less do Damaging, and Nine MM, .45, .357 Magnum, .44 Magnum, and .50 Magnum do Dangerous, and Rifle rounds do Lethal damage.

2. Hollowpoint--Does extra damage by spreading out, but sacrifices penetration. NOT a good choice if the target has almost any sort of armor.
+2 (they are a bit more finicky than regular hardball) DR; +2 SM. They drop one damage category if the target is wearing armor of at least 1@2 hardness. They drop two damage categories if the target's armor is at least 1@10.

3. Jacketed Hollow Point--A generally superior compromise. +2 DR; +2 SM; Damage category drop due to armor as with #2.

4. Match Grade Ammunition--The equivalent of Master Work Bullets.

5. Safety Rounds--Designed to NOT punch holes in walls or planes or spaceships. These do ordinary damage, and do not put holes in walls.

6. Mercury Fulminate Loaded--A bit of extra mercury fulminate is included in the bullet. The point is to make an exploding bullet. These do an additional damage category of damage.

Any hit on the weapon, or on an ammo belt should be treated as a Fatal explosion centered on the gun-user.

7. Depleted Uranium Round--An extremely heavy and dense bullet (about as dense as you can make unless you're making White Dwarf Alloy bullets or some other super-dense SF tech bullet). At this tech level, this would be exceedingly difficult for anything but a sniper rifle. However where and when its available, it has superior armor-piercing qualities.

It treats all armor as 1@1 less dense due to its extreme density.

8. Folding Honeycomb Ramscoops--Tadeusz carries these in his Uzi. They are far faster, and more accurate, and can be set for self-disintegration at various ranges.

+3 SM, and add 10' to every range category.

One advantage of these is that you can carry thirty bullets in the space ten would ordinarily need.

9. Ice Bullets--A nice murder weapon. This does one damage category less, and -5 DR. Bullets made of dry ice are harder, and they don't have water. Their mass turns to air immediately.

Dry ice bullets are also one damage category less, and they do -2 DR.

10. Wildcat (also known as 'Full House')--The shooter custom loads his own bullets to his higher than normal pressure specifications.

+1 SM, +2 DR

11. Tracer

12. Armor Piercing Hollowpoint

13. Wadcutter

14. Semi-wadcutter

15. Lead

16. Full Metal Jacket

These ten are modifiers that you can apply to any bullet....

Like...Nine MM is Dangerous -10 DR (off the top of my head from the Optional Gun List). Now Wildcat the bullets for +1 SM (for a custom load), and a +2 DR because its loaded 'hot'.

So...

Nine MM: Dangerous -10 DR. Wildcat Bullet: +1 SM; +2 DR

Sun Nov 11 2007 3:46 pm #
JohnA1nut
Member

Actually Tad, some hollowpoints are designed specifically to penetrate Kevlar. Gold Dot hollowpoint for example. When they mushroom out, the tip unlocks into 6 spinning blades. Supposedly, at point blank range, a 9mm Gold Dot will go through a vest like it isn't there.

Those safety rounds you are referrencing. Those are also called Fragmentation or simply frag rounds. They literally shatter on impact with a hard surface. That's why they don't go through walls. The thing with them is that they also shatter when they penetrate flesh. So, instead of 1 solid bullet, you now have multiple small pieces to dig out. Very deadly, but almost 0 penetration.

I don't think you mean Mercury Fulminite. That's usually what the primers are made out of. A Mercury Fulminite bullet would (theoretically) explode on impact. More likely, it would explode when the gun was fired. I think you mean Tracers. A tracer round is impregnated with red or white phosphorus. They leave a red/white fire trail if fired at night. Also, they burning will ignite a gas tank. Contrary to most action movies, gas tanks DO NOT explode when shot. You shoot a gas tank, you put a hole in the gas tank. That's it. Hit it with a tracer round though, and you will have an explosion.

The Wildcat rounds you are refering to are commonly called "Full House" loads. You fill the casing to the brim with powder and compress it down. Not something you want to do a lot (They have a tendency to explode guns over time.)

Depleted uranium rounds are used in heavy artilary. Anti-tank rounds. It is the densest metal known to man. Not something you would fire out of a normal handgun, but if you need to mess up an armor-plated vehicle, they are a good choice.

I've seen a movie where a guy used bullets made out of ice. It leaves no ballistic fingerprint. I've been told that yes, it COULD work, but they would probably be more trouble than they are worth. Perhaps making them out of dry ice would work, is what I have been told.

That's all for right now. Let me know if I can be of further assistance.

Mon Nov 12 2007 12:12 am #
Tadeusz
Member

My first impulse is to snort, and say "Yeah, right." But....1)I'm not hear to get into arguements about which bullet can do what, at least not most of the time. 2)It may be possible. I don't keep up on ballistics. 3)If its not possible now, its possible later in perhaps a decade or two.

So I'd put something like this down, with my reccomendation as an optional side note.

==============

Glaser Safety Rounds--I hear they may take the whole fragment thing too far. I'd probably give them ordinary damage, and say they don't penetrate walls or armor.

==============

I probably do mean Mercury... It sounds like an explosive bullet is what the book was describing.

Tracers are a whole different thing that I need to add to the list.
==============================

Mon Nov 12 2007 12:44 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

Something else. The "Hardball" that you mentioned. There are many, many different types of those. There's roundnose, semi-wadcutter, full wadcutter, Full metal jacket, lead, semi-jacketed, etc. I don't know if you need these, but I'll give the basics.

Roundnose exactly what it says, rounded nose. More penetration, less knockdown
Semi-wadcutter, full wadcutter. Fattened tip. More knockdown less penetration than a round nose.
Full metal jacket, has copper plating on the bullet. Less fouling of the barrel, more penetration than lead, more expensive.
lead, no metal jacket. More knockdown, less penetration than FMJ fouls barrel more. Less expensive
Semi jacketed. Jacketed with a lead tip. More knockdown than standared FMJ

If you're paying attention, by this point you should notice that all else being equal, if you improve knockdown power, you decrease penetration power, and vice versa. In some cases, you want more knockdown, in others, you want more penetration.

Another bullet type is the shotshell. They make pistol bullets that fire bird shot like a shotgun. Not something you want to shoot through a high dollar pistol, but it is there. Then there are the 000 buckshot rounds. in 38 and 357 magnum, there are bullets that fire 2-3 ball bearings (000 buckshot) it is just .003 inches larger in diameter than a 357 or 38. This increases the knockdown (multiple projectiles) but decreases range and accuracy somewhat. The birdshot rounds are good for very small target (mice, rats, small snakes etc) but would probably just piss a human being off.

Mon Nov 12 2007 12:53 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

I guess saying "Six spinning blades" wasn't quite right. The one bullet has 6 blades sticking out of it. It's like a small blender, and will cut kevlar. They also cut flesh, and anything else. If you still want to snort and say "Yeah right" ask yourself this. "Why would John A1nut lie to me about this?"

Mon Nov 12 2007 1:02 am #
Tadeusz
Member

I don't think you're lying. But I'm willing to bet that some bullet makers would do do.

Still, like I said, I'll put it in the list.

I'm not sure how to differentiate between penetration and knockdown...I could have the higher pen be the one that decreases the others overall armor by reducing its hardnessl

Mon Nov 12 2007 1:16 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

Tad, putting all of the "regular" bullets into one category would be good enough. It's probably not enough of a difference to worry about. I was speaking in real-world technicalities, but you probably don't need to get that detailed with it. I mean you would be just as dead no matter what bullet I shot you with, ya know?

Tue Nov 13 2007 12:31 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

Tad, something else. I noticed that you put 38 in a lower damage category than a 9mm. I need to correct you on that. A 9mm is smaller than a 38, and would either be in a lower category, or in the same category as a 38. A 38 full house is almost as hot as a 357 magnum. A standard 38 would probably be in the same damage category as a 9mm. I might add a modifier for a 38, but a 9mm is a lot less powerful.

Tue Nov 13 2007 12:42 am #
Tadeusz
Member

John,
I shall try to model good behavior here. I am the author, and you are the man with some useful help. I'll try to respond well.

I've mostly hear Nine MM's considered more dangerous. Perhaps this is because of the greater speed. I have heard a couple contrary opinions. So my hearsay tilts toward Nines.

I went looking on the Net (and NOTE: Google has issues) it took me a bit to find even a semi-useful site.

http://appleseedd6.tripod.com/Guns.html

This guy says that Nines are more damaging I guess than .38 Specials. He's using some 1d6 gaming system which I don't understand tho'.

Of course, this is the Net, and it could easily be wrong.

I would be interested in seeing your data, and reasons. If you can overcome these rather weak defense, I'll be glad to change. If on the other hand, you can only mount a decent defense of your position, I'll be glad to put a note in the list describing the controversy (and guns are a source of great controversy). If you totally cannot defend your position, I will sadly, not change my list.

Eric

Tue Nov 13 2007 5:12 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

Tad, you sound kind of upset with me there. I hope I'm just misunderstanding your post, but if there's a problem, I'd like to know what it is.

I cannot provide any data or web pages to defend my position, but I can give you some facts. A 9mm and a 38 have roughly the same bullet diameter. A 9 is a .355 inch, and a 38 is a .357 inch. A 38 revolver can be made to fire 9mm bullets if you know what you're doing. This was discovered during WW2. The Germans had 9mm Lugars, and either the French or the British had 38 revolvers. The ones with the revolvers found out that a 9mm could be made to fit into a 38. If you look at the two bullets side by side, a 38 casing is almost twice as long as a 9mm. This means it can hold almost 2x as much powder. A 9mm normally weighs between 115-135 grains. A 38 weighs between 140-160 grains, if I am not mistaken. Heavier bullet with more powder. It hits harder. A 9mm holds (usually) 13-17 against a 38 holds 6. I could see an argument made for the 9mm being a more dangerous weapon based on that argument, but as far as power of the weapon, a 38 is far superior.

Tue Nov 13 2007 5:27 am #
Tadeusz
Member

John,
I'm not upset at you. I got into an arguement with some others, and wished to model the proper way of dealing with someone coming to an author to give information that might lead to a correction. Open, transparent, and willing to engage fairly, and all that. I hope that arguement has been resolved in a productive and useful fashion. I'm much happier obsessing about Types of Bullets than Points in Arguements although the latter does have a thrill.

You make a very sound arguement for the superiority of the .38 in damage. I hope you don't mind, but I intend to plagiarize it, and stick it somewhere around the list because I'm sure there are others who think like I did.

Eric

Tue Nov 13 2007 6:35 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

Tad wrote: "I shall try to model good behavior here. I am the author, and you are the man with some useful help. I'll try to respond well."

This just sounded like you were telling me you were trying to restrain yourself from ripping me a new one. I couldn't figure out why you would want to rip me a new one, so I got confused by it. It's all good.

You probably shouldn't plagiarize that post about the 9 vs the 38 word for word. If you need, I think I can get you the velocities of the two. This is something a gunsmith buddy of mine would know. He could probably tell me the velocities and perhaps even the energy used. I'll ask him.

Tue Nov 13 2007 12:43 pm #
M. J. Young
Moderator

Wouldn't muzzle velocity be a function of the gun and its barrel length more than the nature of the bullet itself? My impression is that the same loads fired from a rifle generally go farther, faster, and straighter than from a pistol.

--M. J. Young

Tue Nov 13 2007 11:18 pm #
JohnA1nut
Member

MJ WROTE: Wouldn't muzzle velocity be a function of the gun and its barrel length more than the nature of the bullet itself? My impression is that the same loads fired from a rifle generally go farther, faster, and straighter than from a pistol.

Not always. A 9mm goes between 1100 and 1700 feet per second. A 45 ACP goes between 700 and 1000 feet per second. It wouldn't matter what gun you shot the 45 out of, the 9mm would always be faster.

Now if the two bullets are the same, then yes, barrel length and type of weapon does play a factor in it. Longer barrel length does affect the muzzle velocity and range if the two bullets are the same. The type of action plays into that as well. A bolt action rifle is going to go somewhat faster and further than the same bullet fired from a semi automatic. This is because the bolt action doesn't use any of the bullet's power to cycle the weapon.

Wed Nov 14 2007 1:07 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

I just asked my gunsmith buddy, and he says that the 9mm and the 38 special are actually very close in muzzle velocity and power, with the 38 having a small degree of advantage. He didn't know the muzzle velocity of the 38 offhand, but he did say that they were pretty close in power. He also backed up what I said about a 9mm being more dangerous because of its increased shot capacity. Class the 9mm and 38 together as the same damage category.

Wed Nov 14 2007 1:23 am #
M. J. Young
Moderator
John II wrote

A bolt action rifle is going to go somewhat faster and further than the same bullet fired from a semi automatic. This is because the bolt action doesn't use any of the bullet's power to cycle the weapon.
Yes, but it is <i>also</i> because of barrel length.

The physics of the thing goes something like this. There is an enclosed space in which there is an explosion. One side of that enclosed space is moveable--the bullet. The expanding gasses from the explosion push outward in all directions, but particularly in the direction of the moveable piece, pushing it away with the force of the explosion.

The force exerted on the bullet is a function of pressure; the greater the pressure, the higher the velocity of the bullet--but it is also a factor of the time for which that pressure is exerted. Imagine a rocket: while the engine fires, the rocket continues accelerating, but when the engine burns out, maximum velocity has been reached, and it is now decelerating in response to forces (friction and gravity, mainly) working against it. In the same way, as long as the bullet is in the barrel, the expanding gasses continue to push, accelerating it toward the opening--but once the bullet clears that opening, the gasses escape around it, and it has reached maximum velocity.

Thus indeed the power of the explosion is a critical factor in muzzle velocity, but so, too, is muzzle length. The longer the barrel, the faster the bullet is moving, and the farther it will fly before crashing.

I'll certainly grant that bullets in different classes will have different levels of explosive power, but muzzle length is still a major factor as between bullets that are otherwise identical.

I can't figure, though, why a .45 would be slower than a 9mm per se. The only possibilities I see are
- 9mm bullets are made with greater explosive power--easily remedied by making .45s with more powder;
- the slightly narrower barrel of a 9mm focuses the pressure, such that to get the same pressure behind a .45 would require a greater explosive force than the gun could survive; this would require building heavier guns, but it could be accomplished;
- there is more friction or similar impediment to the larger .45 than to the smaller 9mm, reducing its velocity in the barrel; this suggests that teflon, graphite, or silverstone coated bullets would fly faster, but the same would be true of the 9mm as well.
Thanks for the information, by the way. I would not have expected the .45 to be slower but more powerful.

--M. J. Young
Thu Nov 15 2007 9:04 pm #
JohnA1nut
Member

I'm not sure the physics of why a 9mm is faster than a 45. I've heard the power comparisons like this. A 9mm is like getting hit by a Volkswagen going 120, and a 45 is like getting hit by a Greyhound bus going 60. The 45 is at least, and often more than twice as heavy as the 9mm, but going much slower. A Volkswagen going 120 vs a bus going 60. Get it?

Thu Nov 15 2007 9:21 pm #
Tadeusz
Member

It is true that muzzle length is an effect in speed, and in accuracy. Its also a negative effect in speed of drawing a weapon.

Sounds like an issue I should touch on as well.

I'm pretty sure there is some point where reduction in return on investment (awkwardly stated--there is a concise phrase for that), but I have heard of supposedly real gunfighters having barrels as long as a foot for a pistol. A Thompson Center Contender has quite a long barrel, or the one my bro had, anyways if I remember right.

Fri Nov 16 2007 12:00 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

Wyatt Earp supposedly had a 50 caliber pistol with a barrel that was over a foot long. He would club people over the head with it just as soon as he would shoot them. (I've been hit in the head with a revolver before, it hurts!!) Eric, it's not something I would worry too much about. I mean you can "What if" this thing to death if you take it too far.

Fri Nov 16 2007 12:05 am #
Tadeusz
Member

Thanks John. There is a point when enough's enough. I'll probably put in a few notes on barrel length advantages, and leave that quick and simple.

Honeycomb Matrix Airjet: This bullet is mostly hollow. It unfolds in the gun chamber. This allows 2-3 times as many cartridges (depending on powder type) to be stored in the same gun as regular bullets. It does require a special clip which can be used for regular bullets or Matrix bullets.

Once the cartridge is fired, the bullet leaves the gun, and the air shields which prevent a smooth face to the front of the bullet while in the barrel fall away, and the bullet 'super-expands' to its maximum size.

At this point, air can pass through the hollow spaces of the bullet. However, air is compressed as it does so, and sped up by the compression thus shooting out the end of the bullet faster than it went in.

To be clear, this is not a violation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics. There is energy loss, but this design recovers much of the energy lost by an ordinary bullet that has to push the air aside. As higher and higher velocities are attained, progressively greater percentages of power are required to push the air aside. This makes that rising slope more gentle.

The air chambers in the bullet have to be specially designed in order to cause this effect, and to avoid the effect of air piling up in the tighter spaces, and acting as a solid wall, and slamming on the brakes very quickly.

In the early part of the Twenty-First Century such technology is available on high-end military airplanes. By the mid of the Twenty-First, bullets can be made with the technology, but it is indeed very expensive. A cool hundred dollars a bullet is typical. It waits until the early Twenty-Second before these weapons become cheap.

Such bullets are often paired with the Bullet Modifiers: Depleted Uranium and Razored and Self-Destructing.

Sun Nov 18 2007 4:26 am #
Tadeusz
Member

MJ, This 1d20 List is a recopy of much that's gone before, and its not done yet. Feel free to skip for now.

Types of Bullets aka 1d20 List of Bullet Modifiers
==================================================
NOTE: This chart is not about how much damage a .45 bullet does compared to a Nine MM, but how much damage a Nine MM with a Wildcat load does vs. a Normal Nine MM vs. a Nine MM Hollowpoint vs.....

1. Hardball--Your Basic Bullet. .38 and less do Damaging, and Nine MM, .45, .357 Magnum, .44 Magnum, and .50 Magnum do Dangerous, and Rifle rounds do Lethal damage. More detail on # 12 about this round if you want it.

2. Hollowpoint--Does extra damage by spreading out, but sacrifices penetration. NOT a good choice if the target has almost any sort of armor.
+2 (they are a bit more finicky than regular hardball) DR; +2 SM. They drop one damage category if the target is wearing armor of at least 1@2 hardness. They drop two damage categories if the target's armor is at least 1@10.

3. Jacketed Hollow Point--A generally superior compromise. +2 DR; +2 SM; Damage category drop due to armor as with #2.

4. Match Grade Ammunition--The equivalent of Master Work Bullets.

5. Safety Rounds--Designed to NOT punch holes in walls or planes or spaceships. These do ordinary damage, and do not put holes in walls.

6. Mercury Fulminate Loaded--A bit of extra mercury fulminate is included in the bullet. The point is to make an exploding bullet. These do an additional damage category of damage.

Any hit on the weapon, or on an ammo belt should be treated as a Fatal explosion centered on the gun-user.

7. Depleted Uranium Round--An extremely heavy and dense bullet (about as dense as you can make unless you're making White Dwarf Alloy bullets or some other super-dense SF tech bullet). At this tech level, this would be exceedingly difficult for anything but a sniper rifle. However where and when its available, it has superior armor-piercing qualities.

It treats all armor as 1@1 less dense due to its extreme density.

8. Folding Honeycomb Ramscoops--Tadeusz carries these in his Uzi. They are far faster, and more accurate, and can be set for self-disintegration at various ranges.

+3 SM, and add 10' to every range category.

One advantage of these is that you can carry thirty bullets in the space ten would ordinarily need.

9. Ice Bullets--A nice murder weapon. This does one damage category less, and -5 DR. Bullets made of dry ice are harder, and they don't have water. Their mass turns to air immediately.

Dry ice bullets are also one damage category less, and they do -2 DR.

10. Wildcat (also known as 'Full House')--The shooter custom loads his own bullets to his higher than normal pressure specifications.

+1 SM, +2 DR

11. Tracer

12. Normal: Roundnose, Armor Piercing Hollowpoint, Wadcutter, Semi-wadcutter, Lead, Full Metal Jacket. These have no modifier being the norm the others are judged against. They are similar enough that for game purposes I render them the same.

However for those who want more detail, the following may help you in your design project:

1. Roundnose is exactly what it says, rounded nose. More penetration, less knockdown
2. Semi-wadcutter, full wadcutter both have Fattened tips. More knockdown, less penetration than a round nose.
3. Full metal jacket has copper plating on the bullet. Less fouling of the barrel, more penetration than lead, and more expensive.
4. Lead, no metal jacket. More knockdown, less penetration than FMJ, and it fouls barrel more. Less expensive.
5. Semi-jacketed. Jacketed with a lead tip. More knockdown than standard FMJ

If you're paying attention, by this point you should notice that all else being equal, if you improve knockdown power, you decrease penetration power, and vice versa. In some cases, you want more knockdown, in others, you want more penetration.

13. Silverstone, Graphite, and Teflon: Side Note: Teflon coated bullets tend to penetrate Kevlar armor very well.

14. Razored:

15. Self-Destructing:

16. Incendiary:

17. Fletchette or Needle Bullet:

18. Rubber or Crowd Control:

19. Shotshell:

20. Blanks:

Sun Nov 18 2007 4:48 am #

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