Can you imagine what would happen if a verser got assimilated by the Borg? Imagine Scriff and the ability to verse running through the entire Borg collective. Every time you kill a Borg, it verses. When it verses, it assimilates Indigs, who now also have the ability to verse. Every time you killed a Borg, this would happen. They would spread throughout the Multiverse like a cancer. Oh man, this is giving me chills.
Versers in Star Trek.
(27 posts) (6 voices)-
JohnA1nut
MemberThe only worlds that would be safe would probably be flatline tech bias worlds. There, the Borg might not be able to function. I bet this could make a really cool story. Maybe upon landing in a flatline tech world, or other such world where the Borg implants don't function, the verser regains control of their mind, and can try to fix what happened.
My character in the Star Trek fan club that I used to belong to was Six of Nine of Borg. I really like them.
Thu Jun 12 2008 3:30 am # -
JohnA1nut
MemberOnce you are assimilated, you lose total control of your mind. The referee would then tell a story something like "You land in this world, and assimilate 6 people, before being stabbed to death with a pitchfork. You then verse out and meet up with several other verser Borg, who then proceed to take over the entire planet. You die in an accident while studying some of the Indig technology. You are now in a field. The voices in your head have stopped, and you realize you again have control of your mind and body. The tech bias must not be high enough to support the implants." Thoughts??
Thu Jun 12 2008 3:39 am # -
johnosevens
MemberIt begs the question though, can Scriff be assimilated? Is the Tech bias of the Trekniverse high enough to support scriff-manipulating technologies?
And even if it is, what happens when you go to a world where your implants still work, but your Scriff tech doesn't? Can you still assimilate other Verser-Borg, or will they just be stuck as indig-Borg?
Thu Jun 12 2008 5:03 am # -
JohnA1nut
MemberI really like the Borg. My character in fandom voluntarily went to the Borg collective. He decided that the only way he would ever be appreciated was with people that could think exactly like he did. Hence, joining the Collective.
That is a pretty good question Osevens. Well, what you could have is a planet full of Indig Borg, that assimilate versers, then kill them on purpose. The verser isn't bound by the same laws as the Indigs, so even a universe solely made up of Indig Borg could still spread the infection. Not to mention that in order for the planet to be Borged in the first place, there would have to be at least one verser Borg who could verse out and spread the infection. I just thought it would be a cool idea.
Thu Jun 12 2008 5:20 am # -
JohnA1nut
MemberHow about this, would the verser transfer their psionic and magic powers to the Collective? Psionic powers I could see. Everything in the assimilated person's mind is sent to the entire Collective. So yes, you could have psionic Borg. Magic though, I'm not sure.
Thu Jun 12 2008 5:52 am # -
There's a lot here.
I would assume that the Borg communications links are not designed to transmit across universe boundaries; whether they can cross sub-universe boundaries is an issue that would have to be determined based entirely on the nature of that sub-universe, but by and large once the verser Borg verses, he is cut off from the collective. I believe there were some Next Generation episodes in which they isolated Borg communications so that the captive Borg could not communicate with the collective, and it had some interesting effects, but it's been too long since I've seen those for me to remember them in detail. However, the verser who verses would have to be able to think once separated from the collective, regardless of the tech bias, because he cannot get his orders through the com links and so he cannot function. He also cannot recharge those power systems, but I'm not certain how critical that is.
My first thought was that being assimilated creates a prime/associate relationship; however, the verser is the associate, and so the prime does not verse when the associate verses; and the prime, the Borg Queen, probably never has sufficient contact with the verser to become scriff infected (unless the verser's knowledge of scriff is extensive enough that the queen makes a point of creating that contact). Thus if the Queen dies, the primary/associate relationship is broken and has to be recreated with the new Queen (assuming it works that way), but since the Queen did not verse the associate does not verse either.
It is possible that a small group of closely associated Borg might become scriff-infected. At that point they would either suffer their fates individually when they were killed/versed, or a unit would come into existence in which one (possibly but not necessarily the verser) was the primary and the others associates, and the death of the primary would verse out the entire group. These would then have the com links with each other, but not with the collective, and so would have to define their new purpose in the new world; however, each mind would have more say within the collective, with the result that the verser would be able to impact the thoughts of the whole.
There is no particular reason why the collective could not learn either psionics or magic from the verser, but only taking his abilities as an example from which to attempt to learn the same thing. If the verser has knowledge concerning how best to approach learning such skills, the collective could take advantage of this as well, but it seems likely (based on my observation of versers) that the Queen would go for the most powerful abilities first, and botch on the learning attempt and verse out. The Psi bias in the Star Trek world is high, but I tend to think the Mag bias low, unless you make the Q Continuum a border supernatural populated by uncommitted (neutral affiliation) spirit beings. That wreaks havoc with a Star Trek world, though, so I prefer to think of them as high-powered psions living in a subuniverse or pocket dimension of some sort.
Got to run.
--M. J. Young
Thu Jun 12 2008 7:40 pm # -
johnosevens
MemberMJ - If I may, I'd like to answer some of this point by point, being the die-hard Trekker that I am.
I would argue that since Borg communication is based entirely on "subspace" transpondance that can circumvent the speed of light, there's really not much question of them crossing sub-universe boundaries unless there's a sub-universe that specifically has an adverse effect on that sort of thing.I would assume that the Borg communications links are not designed to transmit across universe boundaries; whether they can cross sub-universe boundaries is an issue that would have to be determined based entirely on the nature of that sub-universe, but by and large once the verser Borg verses, he is cut off from the collective.
There's actually conflicting data on this one. It seems that most drones react very negatively to being cut off from the collective, at least at first. Named uniques (such as Locutus, Seven of Nine, and Crosis) whom the Collective itself invests more heavily in, seem to return to their individuality more readily. As in the case of Locutus (who was Borg for only a matter of days) and Seven of Nine (who was Borg for her entire life, the better part of a decade if we remember she was artificially matured), the return to conciousness does not seem to be a function of time spent in the collective.I believe there were some Next Generation episodes in which they isolated Borg communications so that the captive Borg could not communicate with the collective, and it had some interesting effects.
I rather think that the very idea of the Collective would have an interesting effect on this. If it were just a small group - say five or six - would it not be possible that ALL of them are treated as one or the other? Either they're all Associates (since they have no queen to follow) with the result being that NONE of them is the one that verses them all out, or they're all Primaries (since the collective makes everyone equal and they're ALL Scriff-infected) so that Versing out any one of them verses them all?It is possible that a small group of closely associated Borg might become scriff-infected. At that point they would either suffer their fates individually when they were killed/versed, or a unit would come into existence in which one (possibly but not necessarily the verser) was the primary and the others associates, and the death of the primary would verse out the entire group.
We've seen in the case of the Borg Children and the timesphere party in First Contact that their first reaction is always to try to contact the larger collective. Only once that failed would they turn to something else. Their first order of business would probably be to ... designate? elect? ... a new Queen and start over.These would then have the com links with each other, but not with the collective, and so would have to define their new purpose in the new world; however, each mind would have more say within the collective, with the result that the verser would be able to impact the thoughts of the whole.
On this one I call shenanigans. There is no reason to say that the Collective would not automatically gain all of the Verser's psionic abilities up to the Psi bias level of that world. Why? Because assimilation transmits the specific personal knowledge of everyone who is assimilated to the entire collective. I cite for evidence the fact that the Borg knew specifically everything Picard knew when he was assimilated, including the exact battle plan for Wolf 359 (which was why that battle was a massacre) and the fact even years later he retained the memories of how the Borg operated, what they were doing, how, and why (see First Contact when he describes their subspace beacon). I cite also for evidence of specific personal knowledge Chakotay's experience being assimilated by the Borg Cooperative - he relived the memories of the other former Borg as though he were them, moment by moment, sometimes years at a time.There is no particular reason why the collective could not learn either psionics or magic from the verser, but only taking his abilities as an example from which to attempt to learn the same thing. If the verser has knowledge concerning how best to approach learning such skills, the collective could take advantage of this as well, but it seems likely (based on my observation of versers) that the Queen would go for the most powerful abilities first, and botch on the learning attempt and verse out.
Tue Jun 17 2008 5:01 am # -
Sure, Harry, why not? But that doesn't mean I'm going to agree with everything.MJ - If I may, I'd like to answer some of this point by point, being the die-hard Trekker that I am.
I have this vague recollection of an early 7 of 9 episode, when she was the Borg's "ambassador" to Voyager, in which they passed into some sort of related space, and 7 lost her connection to the collective during that time. However, it was a long time ago that I was watching those episodes, so I might not be remembering clearly, and I am not at all certain where it was they went, so I can't say whether it was a subuniverse or a related universe.I would assume that the Borg communications links are not designed to transmit across universe boundaries; whether they can cross sub-universe boundaries is an issue that would have to be determined based entirely on the nature of that sub-universe, but by and large once the verser Borg verses, he is cut off from the collective.
I would argue that since Borg communication is based entirely on "subspace" transpondance that can circumvent the speed of light, there's really not much question of them crossing sub-universe boundaries unless there's a sub-universe that specifically has an adverse effect on that sort of thing.However, "subuniverse" has nothing to do with "subspace". I can easily imagine a magical subuniverse within a technological universe, in which Borg implants did not function at all.
Further, whether they cross lines into subuniverses (like what I think Voyager entered in that episode) or related universes (such as the parallel universe that featured in one original episode and later in some DS9 shows, in which the Federation was evil) is not relevant to whether they cross universe boundaries. I believe that a communications device which is technological and can cross universe boundaries must itself be a scriff device, and if the Borg have scriff technology, the entire discussion is probably moot anyway.
If they are all Primaries, then there are no associates, and they would verse out individually. The only way you have versers leaving together is if the Primary is killed and those who go with him are all his associates. Thus you have to identify the primary to have an association relationship, or they're not associates. (Or at least, if they are associates, if there is no primary, then they are treated as associates are treated when another associate dies: they are not affected by the death of an associate, only by the death of the primary. So the designation becomes irrelevant.)It is possible that a small group of closely associated Borg might become scriff-infected. At that point they would either suffer their fates individually when they were killed/versed, or a unit would come into existence in which one (possibly but not necessarily the verser) was the primary and the others associates, and the death of the primary would verse out the entire group.
I rather think that the very idea of the Collective would have an interesting effect on this. If it were just a small group - say five or six - would it not be possible that ALL of them are treated as one or the other? Either they're all Associates (since they have no queen to follow) with the result being that NONE of them is the one that verses them all out, or they're all Primaries (since the collective makes everyone equal and they're ALL Scriff-infected) so that Versing out any one of them verses them all?
Ah, but knowledge about psionic skills and ability to do psionic skills are not the same thing--which is why I said they would have the example.There is no particular reason why the collective could not learn either psionics or magic from the verser, but only taking his abilities as an example from which to attempt to learn the same thing. If the verser has knowledge concerning how best to approach learning such skills, the collective could take advantage of this as well, but it seems likely (based on my observation of versers) that the Queen would go for the most powerful abilities first, and botch on the learning attempt and verse out.
On this one I call shenanigans. There is no reason to say that the Collective would not automatically gain all of the Verser's psionic abilities up to the Psi bias level of that world. Why? Because assimilation transmits the specific personal knowledge of everyone who is assimilated to the entire collective. I cite for evidence the fact that the Borg knew specifically everything Picard knew when he was assimilated, including the exact battle plan for Wolf 359 (which was why that battle was a massacre) and the fact even years later he retained the memories of how the Borg operated, what they were doing, how, and why (see First Contact when he describes their subspace beacon). I cite also for evidence of specific personal knowledge Chakotay's experience being assimilated by the Borg Cooperative - he relived the memories of the other former Borg as though he were them, moment by moment, sometimes years at a time.I know a great deal about martial arts. I've learned a lot about different styles, watched them, emulated them in Multiverser, discussed techniques and advantages and disadvantages with many practitioners, even been complimented on my insights into how these things work. I can't do a lick of any of them. I've learned about them, but never learned them. My body is in no shape for such things.
I think I can argue that the same thing applies to magic--it is not knowledge of the rituals that matters, but something else, the belief and devotion to the craft.
I studied linguistics and know a fair amount about Hebrew, but I can't read a word of it and cannot speak more than a few phrases. I know a great deal as a linguist about many Indo-European languages, but cannot speak any. I understand structure, syntax, phonemes, vowel and consonant shifts, language family relationships, connections between vocabularies, and much more, but none of it enables me to speak a language.
Knowing how a psionic skill is done and being able to do the psionic skill are not the same thing. I would agree that every member of the Borg collective would immediately know how the skill was done, but that not one of them would be able to do the skill until he, as an individual, learned it--any more than that all the Borg would suddenly become martial arts masters by assimilating Chuck Norris. Knowing how to do it and being able to do it are two separate things.
Which is also why versers have @0 skills in "science" at various levels. I have a very high 11@0 Computer Science skill because I have a very solid understanding of all the theory of how computers work and what all the parts do in theory, but I really can't do much with a computer in practice at all. I don't have many skills in that area.
In the same way, a psionicist can imprint into your mind the pattern of how a psionic skill works, and you then have an example from which you can learn the skill--but the verser has not given you the skill, but only given you a diagram of how to do it.
The verser has the psionic skills, but the rest of the Borg do not, and must develop them gradually through use.
I would similarly argue that an assimilated gemcutter retains his abilities to cut gems, and that the collective gains his knowledge about such things but not his skill at it. Stonemasons and other craftsman also have skill built on their knowledge, and the assimilation process shares the knowledge but not the skill.
--M. J. Young
Tue Jun 17 2008 7:12 am # -
JohnA1nut
MemberI admit I've never seen the episode, but there was an episode of Voyager where the Borg attempted to cross into the Multiverse. They encountered species 8472, which immediately proceeded to begin kicking the ever loving crap out of the collective. From that, I'd say that the Borg do have the ability to communicate across the Multiverse.
There was an episode of Enterprise where two Borg drones which came back in time during First Contact were discovered frozen in the Arctic wasteland. Once they thawed out, the proceeded to assimilate about 50 people, and take control of and assimilate a cargo ship. When the Borg acquired the cargo ship, its top speed was warp 3.8, if I remember correctly. By the time Archer and company engaged them, the cargo ship had a top speed of warp 4.8. The Enterprise has a top speed of warp 5.2, if they push it to maximum. In other words, if Archer can't catch them soon, he won't catch them at all.
Then there is the episode of Next Generation, I Borg, in which Third of Five was cut off from the collective and became an individual.
Citing the last 2 examples, my theory is that if there are 2 or more Borg, then they have an established collective, and can operate business as usual. If it is a lone Borg completely cut off from the collective, then he is an individual.
Also, Picard was actually in the collective for over a month. When he was captured, the Enterprise had been sent to the edge of Federation space to await and engage them. The attack at Wolf 359 happened a few weeks later, as that was deeper in Federation space, and it took the Borg a while to get there. The final engagement at earth, where the cube was destroyed took place some weeks after the battle at Wolf 359. I know the episode kind of implies that it only took a few days, but it is revealed in an episode of Deep Space Nine that it actually took the Borg several weeks to go from where Picard was first captured to where the cube was ultimately destroyed.
My character in fandom joined the collective willingly, to take revenge on the Federation. He was sick of being misunderstood, and decided that he could only be appreciated by people who thought just like him. This was also the explanation for my real-life psychosis. Being taken out of the collective, and literally having billions of personalities, and now only having one, caused his mind to fracture.
Tue Jun 17 2008 7:59 am # -
Tadeusz
MemberI would like the idea of a Collective that could be used in the game, and that could work across dimensions.
It would be one of several foes that you could meet in differing universes.
(Other such foes or rivals include: The Emerald Corporation Board of Directors and Employees aka the Emerald Sorceror Dukes and their trans-dimensional Mary Piper; the Resource Extraction Teams from the Lost Starship--these use the Jackson Laser Blaster; the Irratio which is a deific and diabolic being that reduces reason and complexity to unreason and entropic soup--its presence can often be seen in worlds that for unknown reasons suddenly have a major upswing of illogic and violence and evil; Her Transversal Brittanic Majesty and her Realms and Emmissaries; The Naga--in one universe they were wiped out, but in others they lived.) These foes or rivals are ones that could pop up in any universe. There are other trans-dimensional beings who only deal with a small section repeatedly such as the Tarian Traders who work a cycle of eleven universes trying to save them from the Topians.
While Multiverser in general focuses on the unique worlds, the possibility of an occasional repeating enemy (and not just the versed out villains of preceding worlds) is a common idea in multiversal fiction for good reason. It offers an instant enemy who is trying to warp the new world you've visited into some perverse and darker version of itself. I do not support doing this even most of the time, but I maintain it is a useful tool to have available.
And thus we come to the Collective. Unlike the Borg, the Collective is a Mentality, and it is mildly masculine. Its primary focus is on the clarity and power of its thoughts.
In its original universe, an attempt was made to join everyone in its solar system into one unified mind. This was inspired by St. Teilhard Chardin who preached of the glories of a unified and harmonious mind.
Unfortunately, it was found that the Worldmind, as it was then called, still had abundant problems. Instead of admitting that harmony and consensus alone were not enough, it was speculated that alien races needed to be included.
So the rest of the universe was conquere...uplifted into Glorious Harmony. And the mind became God, or so it thought. But even still it yearned, and ached, and threatened to split. What was lacking was an overall mission which would enthuse the mind, and promise peace.
Psionic studies had revealed the existence of other universes.
If only the whole of the Mulitverse were brought into Harmony why then the Mind would feel peace. Death of its individual parts would no longer frighten it. Alienation from nature, and from itself would no longer bother it. It would be whole and healthy instead of increasingly diseased.
And thus the Collective reaches out tendrils into other universes, and takes over the minds of those vulnerable. It does not believe in magic. It believes technology exists, but is a wholly inferior way of doing things. It believes that martial arts exists, but other than the most basic forms of it, it believes this is 'the art of savages who embrace the body rather than the holy and pure mind.'
There are hundreds of universes which are influenced by the Collective. In some this influence is very minor as there are a few Connected Ones. In others, the universe is a subsidiary of the original universe and everyone in it is a member of the Collective.
And yet, despite all this, the Collective is rotting from within. Insanities, delusions, dissensions, and outright perversions continue to rise behind the bright shiny face of harmonious rationality the Collective puts on.
"Join us. You will be happy and at peace. You have no choice but joy."
Tue Jun 17 2008 4:57 pm # -
I have seen that episode.I admit I've never seen the episode, but there was an episode of Voyager where the Borg attempted to cross into the Multiverse. They encountered species 8472, which immediately proceeded to begin kicking the ever loving crap out of the collective. From that, I'd say that the Borg do have the ability to communicate across the Multiverse.
My first impression from it is that it was not access to the entire multiverse, but rather to a limited collection of related universes. This, to my mind, is nearly always the case whenever any cosmology posits any kind of multiverse whose rules are more limiting than those of Multiverser. For example, in Jet Li's The One, there is talk of a multiverse, but every universe has the same people in it, and those people are connected to their divergents in an essentially ontological way. Thus I conclude that there is a collection of related universes somewhere within the vastness of the multiverse for which those rules apply, and that the denizens of those universes who are aware of this incorrectly believe that there cosmology is the entirety of the multiverse. In the same way, Voyager learned how to cross boundaries into other universes, but these would be related universes whose rules included how one could connect between them. It is not The Multiverse that the Borg were able to access.
Also, as I recall, that is the episode in which Seven of Nine traveled with Voyager into that related universe, and when she was in that related universe she was cut off from the collective, unable to communicate with them. If my recollection is correct, then although the Borg can cross universe boundaries within the related universes so connected, they cannot communicate across those boundaries.
I would like the idea of a Collective that could be used in the game, and that could work across dimensions.
I certainly don't object to this conceptually; rather, I insist that such groups are usually limited to a collection of related universes. Since the verser has no way of knowing whether any particular universe is one of those related universes, he cannot know for certain that his corporate enemy is not established in the present world.Of course, there is a degree to which he can know, because such enemies are reliant on the bias of their chosen bias area "strong suit" to enter other worlds. In certain universes, the Dar Koni have developed scriff transport modules, capsules capable of traversing the scriff to other universes (in pursuit, of course, of the Kreelak, wherever they may be). However, such scriff transports will only function properly in universes with a tech bias high enough to support such machines; an operator entering a low-tech universe might not be able to land safely, and certainly won't be able to launch again. Similarly, the psionic power must be able to operate psionically in the universes it enters in order to continue as a psionic power there. Even if the enemy is a god or demon or djinn or other supernatural entity, such beings are limited by the mag bias of the worlds, and cannot materialize corporeally in low-bias worlds. So there is a level at which the "multiverse" accessible by these ubervillains is self-limiting.
I see that as a good thing, though. I remember in Sliders they faced the Cro-Mags, a conquering human species which had developed sliding technology and were working to subject all (related) universes to themselves. Once they were introduced to the storylines, it was almost impossible to avoid them thereafter: they were pursuing the Sliders, and able to alert their allies in every universe to whatever they had learned about them.
An interdimensional borg-like collective would be nearly impossible for most versers to defeat, even those with incredible abilities.
--M. J. Young
Tue Jun 17 2008 10:18 pm # -
Tadeusz
MemberThe Collective megamind is obviously limited by only being effective in universes with at least some significant psi, and really effective only in universes with major psi. Likewise, the Emerald Sorceror-Dukes are even more limited in that they don't just despise technology like the Collective despises other skills, but they don't understand them to any majorly significant degree.
The problem with the Cromag is a problem of writerly skill. By that time in the story, the writers had clearly demonstrated their lack thereof. One of their key faults was taking a somewhat balanced team, and turning it into one superbeing and his lackeys. AKA they gave Quintin too many skills, and did not develop the other characters.
Be warned, you've hit a button with me. Rant will follow.
A team, such as a superhero team a la the X-men, or a Dungeonhacking party needs for each party member to have a niche with skills, and less so, but usefully with personality. It is possible to have a super and his lackeys set up, but then the readers don't identify so much with the lackeys....such as Doc Savage and his helpful friends.
In Sliders, they should have made Quinn the intuitve genius, the Professor as the font of established knowledge, Wade as the computer geek, and Rembrandt could have developed over time into what he seemed like later...the manly man with fists of steel. Wade should have been turned into a computer genius/hacker with pershaps an episode where she bonds with an AI mentally.
I remember seeing Quinn type on a keyboard...this should not have been allowed. They should have given him dyslexia.
Eventually--Quinn--Intuitive genius, team leader, but not a strong one. Quinn learns how to fight enough not to embarrass himself, and does not become the top puncher.
Prof....wise father figure, bit crochety, encylopedic knowledge of everything....the Prof knows all that is known, but is not so good at figuring out new stuff.
Rembrandt reveals that he was at one time a gang member, and slowly sheds some of his wimpiness and becomes the go to man when you want someone knocked out.
Wade picks up a knife, and speed attacks, and becomes the super-hacker after mind-melding with an AI, and picking up a super duper computer keyboard on some world.This seems like a good time to mention I saw the "Professor" at Dragoncon one year.
Rant over.
===========
The notion that there are a few enemies that would scare Tadeusz, and daunt Di Vars and the Alchemist seems like a good idea to me. You clearly don't send the full force of the Collective against someone less capable.
Wed Jun 18 2008 12:25 am # -
JohnA1nut
MemberWhen I was heavier into Star Trek fandom, I told a story about when I brought out of the Borg collective. It drove my character insane, having the billions of personalities of the collective, being reduced to one, my own. In the story, I'm put into a mental hospital "In this jacket with these really long sleeves, so I gave myself a nice, big hug all the time..... and in this room.... with these padded walls so I couldn't hurt myself no matter how hard I beat my head against the wall." In the story though, the Borg had assimilated Harry Houdini, so I had all of his knowledge. I had the knowledge of a 3@10 escape artist, which I used to get out of the straight jacket, and out of the padded cell. I'm wondering how that would work in Multiverser.
Sun Jun 22 2008 1:31 am # -
JohnA1nut
MemberI just had a weird thought. If you had a world that had 15@10 biases in everything, you could use psionics and/or magic to call in all of the Elder Versers. I mean if the 15@10 magic "Do Anything" means what it says, why not? Have all of the Elders together in the same world, to engage the collective. Now THAT would be a hot time in the old town tonight!!!!!!
Sun Jun 22 2008 4:56 am # -
I don't think that it is inherent in the concept of the Borg that once separated from the collective an individual still has all the knowledge of the collective. Barring a clear indication of this, I would rule against it--if for no other reason, because it's terribly inefficient use of storage media. That is, even with advanced bioelectronic data storage systems installed on each individual Borg, the total amount of information in all assimilated minds would not fit in any one assimilated individual, and a good part of the function of the collective is to connect each mind to the data it needs when it needs it. Thus the fact that Harry Houdini was assimilated means that that information is available within the collective, but not necessarily that it is available to any specific Borg isolated from the collective. I accept that there is value in redundant storage, and thus that there is a very remote chance of such information being stored in a specific individual, and I would allow that at least some information on escaping captivity might have particular value and so be part of a core information package. Given the vast variety of means of containing individuals, however, you would need a particularly good roll to have that specific information available.In the story though, the Borg had assimilated Harry Houdini, so I had all of his knowledge. I had the knowledge of a 3@10 escape artist, which I used to get out of the straight jacket, and out of the padded cell. I'm wondering how that would work in Multiverser.
Even if you did, it would be a 3@10 example which would bonus your chance of teaching yourself the skill the first time you attempted it. Thereafter it would not be relevant.
Technically correct, but you've a couple things working against you. One is that there are substantial penalties against performing skills in one universe that will have affects in another. That's probably going to be something like -50 on all attempts to reach those other universes. Much more problematic, though, is finding those individuals. There is an argument concerning whether there is actually an infinite number of universes or a vast number beyond comprehension, but either way you're going to have a very large haystack in which to find some very small needles. Sure, you can attempt to sort through those universes by seeking "Peter Adams", but there will be a divergent version of Peter Adams in an incredibly vast number of modern earth universes, and since relative time between universes is meaningless you will find every one of those Peter Adamses on every day of their lives. On top of that, you will find the verser Peter Adams in every universe he has ever visited, from his original pre-verser Earth existence through his first visit to NagaWorld through wherever he is now to places he has not yet been--thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, of places he has been or will have been. O.K., use divine assistance to sort through it and find that version of Peter Adams you can grab without causing temporal anomalies in a thousand universes, and you still have another problem: magic and psionics used on individuals can be resisted by those individuals, and those particular individuals are pretty good at resisting. It has to be this way: if the evil wizard wants to snatch you and teleport you into the heart of the volcano, you as a player want to be able to roll against something to resist that. You get that roll. So does the wizard when you try to use the same trick against him. So does Peter Adams, and his attributes and skills are extremely strong, so you're going to have a hard time grabbing him.If you had a world that had 15@10 biases in everything, you could use psionics and/or magic to call in all of the Elder Versers.
Now multiply that by the maybe dozen versers you're talking about gathering.
Now remember that even if you get them there, that doesn't mean they're going to cooperate with you. If you bring Mother, she's going to want to find and kill Whisp, and will destroy anyone who opposes her--which will include you if she thinks you have moved her away from him. If you bring Whisp too, he's going to be running, because he knows how powerful Mother is. If you bring Bob Thomas (and get him out of Adam's briefcase), he's going to start killing all the indigs. If you bring Dan O'Malley, he'll sit back and watch. Each of these elders has his own beliefs and agenda, and each needs his own reason to be involved in what you are doing. They are not always so predictable. For example, if you dragged Michael di Vars to your current world, he would probably ask why you brought him there, then kill you for being so presumptious, then go deal with the demons himself. If you brought The Architect, he would probably tell you that this seems like the sort of thing you can handle yourself, but he's glad to give you advice if you've got specific questions he can answer. They have worked together on small jobs in the past, but they aren't like Justice League or even X-Men, they're just a bunch of guys who all happen to have been at this a very long time and have developed some very impressive power from that.
--M. J. Young
Sun Jun 22 2008 5:42 pm # -
JohnA1nut
MemberIn that case, I would call in Bob Thomas. He recognizes versers as being alive, so wouldn't kill me. He wouldn't recognize the Borg as being alive, so would lay waste to them. If a few indigs get killed in the process, collateral damage. As long as it wasn't Mr. Smith and family.
Sun Jun 22 2008 11:59 pm # -
JohnA1nut
MemberIf you bring Mother, she's going to want to find and kill Whisp
Doesn't Mother know that Whisp can't be killed? Or does she just have such hatred for him that she verses him out every chance she gets? And for that matter, why would Whisp run? If I knew I would just verse out, I'd stand up like a man and get it over with. And hope that next time, I had something that could verse her out.
Mon Jun 23 2008 12:20 am # -
JohnA1nut
MemberSpeaking of the Elders, MJ kept saying that The Architect had been to thousands upon thousands of worlds, but the Referee's Rules say that he has only been to 51 worlds. None of the Elders have been to more than 200 worlds, as far as I can tell from the rulebook. So what's the deal?
Mon Jun 23 2008 1:11 am # -
It all depends on when in that Elder's career you bring him into the game. Since time doesn't exist between universes, you could easily meet the Architect who's been to ten thousand worlds in your first verse and then verse out and meet the Architect who's only been to two hundred in your second.
And no, Mother doesn't know Whisp can't be killed; she only knows that every time she's tried so far, she hasn't killed him dead enough. She thinks that Whisp is the only reason she's in the 'verse, so every time she kills him, she immediately kills herself. When she wakes up in another verse, not dead, she assumes that Whisp must still be alive, and so she sets out to kill him again - hopefully deader this time.
This has been going on for a while, and she is quite insane.
Mon Jun 23 2008 2:35 am # -
JohnA1nut
MemberAn infinite amount of universes, an infinite amount of lifetimes, and an infinite amount of time to visit them. Unless there is a specified stopping point for versers, there would be an infinite amount of diverging verser characters, if I'm understand what MJ said previously. Given an infinite amount of time, you could go to an infinite amount of places. The old joke "If an infinite amount of rednecks fired an infinite number of shotguns at an infinite amount of stop signs, it would eventually produce a comedy by Jeff Foxworthy, in Braille." If there is an infinite amount of time, and an infinite amount of universes, the two infinities cancel each other out, and you would indeed go to every single infinite universe. Or is there a final verse for versers? Has this ever been proven one way or the other?
Mon Jun 23 2008 8:09 am # -
The Architect maintains that the logic of the Multiverse demands that it be a vast and increasing but finite number.
The Architect versed out in the Earth year 1992 and was encoded in the Earth 1995. It is more than a decade later in Earth time, and since time is not a factor in the multiverse he could have visited any number of worlds in that time. Part of the point of stating how many worlds he had then visited was to show that he was not as experienced as some of those other elders, but much more experienced than the versers coming in now. They are supposed to be more experienced than you can expect to be in a long time.
And Whisp might not be afraid of death, but he's certainly not happy with the pain of dying--and as Scott says, Mother is looking for a way to kill him "deader", so it's likely to be more painful next time.
--M. J. Young
Mon Jun 23 2008 10:26 pm #
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