Ya know, it's kind of arrogant of you to assume that I would want to anyway.
I'm sorry, I assumed that you wanted me to return you to the Terminator scenario because you said so several times and had not since said otherwise. Apparently you changed your mind and failed to mention it, and I was so arrogant as to assume that if you said you wanted to do something that involved me and then changed your mind you would mention it to me. Of course it's not necessary for you to mention what you want; I should be able to guess.
I made some arguments about reason and logic in this thread; the short form is that reason does win arguments, but only when everyone agrees on the fundamental principles. That is, I an demonstrate logically that if 1+1=2 and 2+2=4 then 1+1+1+1=4. I can also demonstrate logically that if 1+1=3 and 3+3=5 then 1+1+1+1=5, but if you disagree with my premises my conclusions are invalidated.
The reason no logical argument will persuade Eric that communism is good is because communism is based on assumptions that Eric does not accept. I can speak for myself here. I do not accept that guaranteed everything we need every person will work as hard as he can for the benefit of everyone. That is Marx' fundamental assumption, and the reason why communism fails, in my opinion: if guaranteed everything we need and denied more than that, most people will do the absolute minimum they can. I have a joke line I picked up somewhere that I use sometimes when people thank me for small things like holding doors and letting them precede me in a checkout line. "It's the least I can do," I say, and continue, "and never let it be said that I didn't do the least I could do." I think that's the usual attitude: most people will do the least they can do. It's a reverse Tragedy of the Common: the share is based on everyone's contribution to the total, but my personal failure to contribute more to the total does not significantly impact the value of my share, so I don't worry about it; and as everyone else does the same, the total decreases and every share contracts; but there's not much point to me working harder, because the return that is my share is negligible.
It would work if everyone were fully altruistic, eager to do as much as possible for the good of all. I think heaven is probably some form of socialism, full of people who have been converted from the selfish self-interested people who make capitalism so effective in this world to the selfless serving people who Marx imagines fill this world but are really residents of another.
And now a bit for Mark: Why don't you learn from your eminently wise (and devastatingly handsome) friend, Eric? And just say 'Not going to talk about it?'
Eric, I appreciate the suggestion. There are some problems with it, most notably that my dear but obsessive friend John not only does not let these things go, he demands a reply. I have sometimes ignored responses he posted here, only to have him e-mail me to complain that I did not respond to his forum post. I would rather have the discussions here, if only so that he has to demonstrate his obsessive demands for my time to others and so hopefully limit himself (not to mention getting the occasional support from others here who try to help him see the error of his arguments--if it were just what I say versus what he says, it would be harder to defend that what I say is logical, but when Mike and Brock and Adam and Eli and others are telling him the same thing, at some point he should realize that if no one gets it but him, it's not everyone else).
John is not going to admit "I was wrong. You were right." Well probably not.
Well, he's done so before. Sometimes he regresses and returns to previous problems, but sometimes he learns.
I feel like I'm sitting at that table in the library, getting perturbed, and then thumping the table and telling everyone not to be an idiot. At which point, they agree with me, and then less than a minute later, they're back to arguing.
I apologize. It's obviously one of the problems of having these discussions here rather than by e-mail, but I think if I told him to take it to e-mail it would wind up in both places at this point, because his paranoia has him feeling as if everyone is unreasonably against him, instead of that if everyone disagrees with him he's probably wrong. I don't know that I can fix that this time, but we'll see.
Now, to get to the beginning, and the real point of the thread:
I've been thinking about leaving the board for some time. I don't go where I'm not welcome.
John, it is never my desire or intention to drive anyone from the board. I have tolerated the presence of Wicker T. Bunglepoo and several others who seemed to be here over the years for the sole purpose of harassing me. You are not here for that purpose, and I can tolerate quite a bit from someone who means well no matter how confused or misguided they become. I've had my closest friends do far worse than you. Yes, I tire of it. No, I am not asking you to leave. I think your game with Eric has been a positive thing, and I hope you will continue to play and to enjoy it, and that whenever he for whatever reason concludes that he cannot continue to run it that you will have come to a place where other people here will feel comfortable taking you as a player. As a rule, I do not take players back unless there is no alternative that allows them to continue playing. That's not personal. That's because I get new players and wind up with a plate full looking to lighten my load by getting others to take over the games. It is complicated in your case by two factors, one that the world wound up being a very bad match for you such that I was becoming very frustrated by it, and the other that Eric plays fast and loose with a lot of rules which I play close and tight, especially concerning the creation of magic skills, and I would have a lot of trouble making sense of the character sheet of just about any player character who came from one of his games. His style is fast and flowing, and I'm pleased to have him run people that way, but I would be looking for answers to all the questions he never bothered to ask, and we'd probably spend a couple years just trying to convert whatever character sheet he has for you into something I can use in my games--time I don't have, as I get new players not less often than every year.
So don't go away, and certainly don't go away mad.
--M. J. Young
