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We're Confused.

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Started 1 year ago by JohnA1nut
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JohnA1nut
Member

All this talk about starting new threads as opposed to posting to an old thread. OK, I'll start a new thread. Seems pointless and wasteful to me, but so be it.

MJ Wrote:

For another, no one who has ever left my game for Eric's has returned to my game. I don't really expect that you'll continue this story--someone else will pick you up from Eric if he fades out. After all, part of the point of having other referees here is so that I can start the new people, and then they can leave me for other referees, so unless someone else wants to pick up the extremely difficult Terminator time travel story, it's dead, Jim.

Eric write:

OOC: I'm surprised too, but it is a reasonable choice MJ has made. I can probably take you to my version of a Terminator world when I get around to it, if you like. That would be easier and more fun for both of us than trying to get into MJ's programme for the Terminator world.

John is writing:

I was under the impression that Eric was only taking me for a brief time, until we could get some things sorted out. I thought that, whenever Eric was finished with whatever it was he was doing, I would go back and finish the Terminator world. Are you saying that's not going to happen? You said no on who went to Eric ever came back. That doesn't mean it can never happen. Is Terminator dead, or could we resume it after a time? I don't think I need to tell you that I'd REALLY like to finish that world!!!!!

(Doing Therapy)

Fri Oct 15 2010 1:57 am #
kyler
Member

I would take a stab at the Terminator world; but then, my understanding of it is not on par with yours, and my offer does not, I think, answer your question adequately.

Fri Oct 15 2010 2:48 am #
Tadeusz
Member

That would be excellent with me. We can keep on going with various worlds for John, with him building skills he will use in the Terminator world, until he and Kyler are ready to do the Terminator world.

Fri Oct 15 2010 3:28 am #
kyler
Member

I'm ready. Take your time.

Fri Oct 15 2010 11:19 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

I would take a stab at the Terminator world; but then, my understanding of it is not on par with yours, and my offer does not, I think, answer your question adequately.

I doubt many people have an understanding of The Terminator which is on par with mine. Are you more open-minded than MJ? Perhaps you would go along with ideas that he would dismiss.

Fri Oct 15 2010 12:44 pm #
kyler
Member

It depends. I'd say that I take to heart the core belief of "anything is possible in Multiverser" and go from there, but you're asking me if I'm more open-minded than the guy who wrote the rules system that I've been able to use to make anything possible.

Fri Oct 15 2010 1:11 pm #
Tadeusz
Member

Well, John, that's one of the problems for a referee which MJ pointed out to me a long time ago (well before you came here, I think.) If the player knows the world much more than the GM, it gets problematic. I had some of the same worries with David Marcoe and '1632' because while I had read it, he had joined up in the online 1632 community as well as reading it. So its not a problem specific to you.

I'd probably not want to run a Star Wars setting for a SW superfan either.

Fri Oct 15 2010 1:17 pm #
Tadeusz
Member

Second post...

That said, I'm still willing to try, although I think Kyler could be better for this job due in large part to his not being skeered of it.

Fri Oct 15 2010 1:19 pm #
kyler
Member

It is a bit of a problem, because not only do you not want to send characters somewhere that they know better than you, you want to send them places they will enjoy. My rebuttal is to say, "My setting, my world, you don't think it's enough like the source? tough. don't like it? be the change you want to see."

Fri Oct 15 2010 1:20 pm #
JohnA1nut
Member

OK Kyler, let me put it to you another way. If I were to tell you that the T-70 was 8 feet tall, 4 feet wide at the shoulders, right arm a 4 fingered claw, and the left arm a 4 fingered claw equipped with a 50 caliber belt-fed minigun, and that the T-70 was susceptible to being knocked of its feet easily, would your response be:

"I'll go along with that."
or
"Let's pick up the dice and find out."

Fri Oct 15 2010 1:22 pm #
kyler
Member

It sounds like I'm a player in this example, and I'm about as easygoing as they come with extensive experience playing in freeform RP settings. As Multiverser is not freeform there are certain settings where I would ask if you rolled for something.

Fri Oct 15 2010 1:33 pm #
JohnA1nut
Member

That doesn't quite answer my question. Eric was talking about running a Star Wars setting for a superfan. I would think the easiest way to handle that would be to just go along with what the player told you about the world. If the player said that something was the way it was, you go along with it. After all, you're freely admitting that they know the world better than you. That's what I'm asking. If I told you the way the world was supposed to be, would you argue with me, or would you just accept that my information was accurate?

Fri Oct 15 2010 1:38 pm #
Glantri
Member

No John, that's a horrible way of running a world, because of two things.
1. It allows the player to set the enemies power level
2. It gives the player the idea it's ok to argue with the GM if an aspect isn't exactly how the player understands the universe

Fri Oct 15 2010 1:44 pm #
Tadeusz
Member

I'm pretty flexible about backing up and admitting that I've made a mistake, but if I have to do it over and over again, it breaks the spell.

So if I say 'you climb on board the Conqueror two engine freighter'

And the player comes back 'The Conqueror has three engines' its fine, and I say 'ok' but at some point its gets to be too disruptive....and while I know a vast array of settings, I do not know them to the depth that a superfan would for his favorite setting.

Often, the best solution is to say 'This is an alternate version of the world you saw (in a book, or movie, or comic book)'.

Fri Oct 15 2010 1:46 pm #
kyler
Member

Oh, as a GM? No. Absofreakinglutely not. I say what you see and you say "But that's not how they are supposed to be" and I say "My setting, my world, you don't think it's enough like the source? tough. don't like it? be the change you want to see."

Fri Oct 15 2010 1:48 pm #
kyler
Member

Yes at Eric's last posted paragraph

Fri Oct 15 2010 1:50 pm #
JohnA1nut
Member

If you've seen the four movies, you know about the T-800, T-600, T-850, T-1000, and the TX, as well as the tanks, fliers, and a few others. You could make a decent world with that. However, you've also got the T-100-T-500 series which were never seen in any movie. The T-100 series was so weak a human could engage it hand to hand. That is, if they could get close enough to do so. SkyNet was, at first, building a lot of weak units, in an attempt to "out breed" humanity. After a while, it realized that fewer, more powerful units were the way to go. It's also limited in resources. It's trying to find the balance between resources used, number of units, and effectiveness of units.

Do you make the T-100 out of whole cloth, or do you listen to what I tell you about it, and design it from that? The T-600 went through about a half-dozen incarnations. You know of one. If I tell you that the T-600 Reaver was a headless ghoul with razor sharp mono filament blades for fingers (and thus could not use a weapon) and would hack people to pieces whilst recording their screams to play back for the humans in hiding to enjoy (A terror weapon) would you go along with that, or what?

Fri Oct 15 2010 2:07 pm #
Tadeusz
Member

Pull-lease tell me that you did not vote for His Messiahness, Kyler.

Fri Oct 15 2010 2:07 pm #
JohnA1nut
Member

What I'm saying is that you could make the world much better by listening to the player as opposed to making it out of whole cloth. If the player knows what the thing is supposed to do, listen to them tell you about it, then design the in-game version from that. Make it as close to what they tell you as reasonably possible. Then you've got ideas to use, and everybody is happy.

Fri Oct 15 2010 2:12 pm #
Glantri
Member

No, the GM is not happy when he's at the players call to make the NPC's to the players specifications. It's a hassle. I doubt anyone here is willing to do that.

Fri Oct 15 2010 2:17 pm #
JohnA1nut
Member

Then the GM has no right to complain about not having ideas. The player is giving him all the ideas he could ask for.

Fri Oct 15 2010 2:20 pm #
Glantri
Member

Who is complaining about not having ideas?

Fri Oct 15 2010 2:20 pm #
JohnA1nut
Member

Just saying.

Fri Oct 15 2010 2:21 pm #
kyler
Member

Hmm.... No. Just saying.

Fri Oct 15 2010 2:34 pm #
JohnA1nut
Member

Curious. If Kyler is running in (what? 5 games?) and Adam is running in (what? 3 games?) Why can't I run in (what? 2 games?) one with MJ and one with Eric?

(Doing Therapy)

Sat Oct 16 2010 2:16 am #
kyler
Member

To Eric regarding my political standpoint in the most recent presidential election: Personally, I think we're right on track for some kind of civil altercation at some point in my lifetime, and my standpoint is that if it turns bloody I'm fleeing to Canada (It's my closest border). I voted for no one.. I probably would have written in for JohnA1nut if I had voted.

Sat Oct 16 2010 2:24 am #
kyler
Member

The reason being that MJ passes games off so he has more time for everything else. If it makes you feel any better, I'll stop posting to my game with MJ.

Sat Oct 16 2010 2:25 am #
M. J. Young
Moderator
O.K., it's a confusing thread, but I understand the confusion, at least.

Eric thought he was going to pick up John out of Terminator, run him in some other worlds and get him a bit more oriented to game courtesies and protocols, and then return him. I was going to say no, but it was a done deal before I could say much of anything. That's fine; it's one less player on my plate, one more being run by others, and that means I get to see my wife for an extra few minutes every day. Or get some other work done, more likely.

Eric has also in this thread said that John would return to the Terminator world with new skills. That I'm not so sure about. After all--
- Any Bod skills he acquires will be gone when he returns to the infant body, and he'll have to learn them again.
- Any Psi skills he learns are going to be at best weak and more likely useless under the flatlined bias curve, so only the @1 skills will work, and he's got most of those already.
- He talked me into a GE roll for the mag bias, which I have regretted several times, but it lets him use a lot more magic than I would have liked. If he learns yet more magic skills and becomes more powerful as a wizard or priest, I would scrap the world as inappropriate for his character's skills.
- That leaves tech skills. He's already got a batch of combat weapon skills, and although there will be yet higher tech weapons in the future Terminator setting he'll have time to acquire and learn these as well. The computer skills would be useful, but I was pretty sure that John Conner learned his hacking skills before he was thirteen, and picked up his robotics skills pretty much as the robots were being developed and deployed. So some high tech skills in those areas would be helpful without being overpowering, but they're hardly necessary.
John, you are the only online player who was shifted from me to another referee and then returned, and the reason it happened is that you so angered one referee that he wouldn't run you anymore and the one who took over from him ran into technical problems that took him offline for an extended time, and no one else would take you. I don't think it ought to be allowed to happen twice. In any case, I don't promise to run anyone's game except my own sons', and I don't promise that anyone will play in more than one game on the forum. As long as someone is running you in some game, I see no necessity for me to return you to my player list.

Terminator was going to be a very convoluted time travel experiment. I don't know for certain that it would have worked, but it's not that important to me. You're playing in another game; I've got plenty of active players. Have fun.

If somehow you lose all your referees again (not impossible) I'll think about how to pick up your game from wherever it is at that time.

--M. J. Young
Sat Oct 16 2010 2:26 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

He talked me into a GE roll for the mag bias, which I have regretted several times, but it lets him use a lot more magic than I would have liked. If he learns yet more magic skills and becomes more powerful as a wizard or priest, I would scrap the world as inappropriate for his character's skills.

So God won't help to defend His creation against their creation? I find that difficult to believe.

John, you are the only online player who was shifted from me to another referee and then returned, and the reason it happened is that you so angered one referee that he wouldn't run you anymore

Come on!!! It's not MY fault Adam is a complete and utter moron!!!!!!!! (Supposed to be good-naturedly funny.)

(Doing Therapy)

Sat Oct 16 2010 2:34 am #
kyler
Member

I believe most of us disagree with the latter statement; I think you mean that it's not your fault that you're such an insufferable toejam, and that most could probably agree with...
(supposed to be good natured and funny)

As for the former, MJ tries not to send characters to worlds that they will completely come out on top in for reasons that should be fairly obvious, I hope.

Sat Oct 16 2010 2:39 am #
Tadeusz
Member

I think its clear it was the best action to take. As an example, Robert Heinlein was a much better writer when he was forced to listen to editors. Later, when he got big enough to ignore them, his writing declined in skill, or so I've heard. We all need a mix of freedom of action and occasional restraint, even the best of us. It no doubt improved my version of Northgate City to build the supers, even though I really did not want to hear that advice from you.

There are of course, ways around the Bod problem of relearning skills. (I did give him a ring).

Psi is fine then.

I guess I just need to be sure not to send him to worlds with too much magic, or too much tech. I had not thought about the Magic issue.

I will at some point leave John's game as I take a rest. John can of course, join with Kyler at any time.

I think with this setup you'd be able to retake up your time travelling experiment, which I apologize for interrupting, with minimal problems except for the wait, and with a much smoother operation. That is, if you decide you want too.

Sat Oct 16 2010 4:11 am #
Brock
Member

Come on!!! It's not MY fault Adam is a complete and utter moron!!!!!!!!

Come On! It's not my fault nobody likes me! It's not my fault no one understands me! I must be everyone else's fault! I'm never in the wrong!

Also, I have seen no evidence whatsoever that Adam is a moron; quite the opposite, I'm afraid. You, on the other hand, seem to be quite primitive.

That sort of good-natured humor is just so fun, isn't it?

Sat Oct 16 2010 4:41 am #
JohnA1nut
Member

No sense of humor.....

Sat Oct 16 2010 12:27 pm #
kyler
Member

It seemed to me to be quite humorous in an insulting way.

You didn't get it?

Personally, I don't find insults very funny; irony, on the other hand, is a complete stitch.

Sat Oct 16 2010 1:38 pm #
M. J. Young
Moderator
So God won't help to defend His creation against their creation? I find that difficult to believe.

O.K., let's address this clearly.
1. The Mag Bias exists to state the degree to which supernatural beings will or will not tamper with the natural order. Some universes really are as the Deists proclaim: created by a rational being who set everything in rational order following rational rules with which He will never tamper nor interfere. Others are as Valdron, worlds in which capricious minor gods bicker and play games with the lives of mortals constantly, and human lawyers argue in divine courts in defense of human defendants wronged by the gods.
2. Whether God will defend His creation against anyone or anything is an entirely separate question than whether He will use magic to do so. It is certainly arguable (and both the Architect and Lauren Hastings would so argue) that God was defending His creation by versing in someone with knowledge of the danger and the willingness to train in the necessary weapons, tactical, and strategic skills to fight against the danger. I am reminded of Gideon, who was hiding from the Midianites when the angel appeared and called him a hero. The angel assured Gideon that God was on their side. Gideon challenged this assertion by asking where the miracles of old were if God was on their side. The angel told him, in essence, Gideon, you are the miracle. God sent you. And John, without a scrap of magic in that world, you would still have been the miracle God sent to win that war.
3. Who is the enemy here anyway? You speak of God defending His creation, but against what? It appears that you want God to attack His creation. After all, SkyNet and the Terminators were created in due course by the seemingly inevitable progress of human technology. God certainly foresaw that this would happen from the moment he molded mud and blew on it. Nothing is happening that is outside His plan. If SkyNet is conquering the world, it must be God's plan that SkyNet do so. Are you then opposing God's plan? By no means! There are reasons why God sometimes wants wars. They cause people to band together, to make sacrifices and take risks. In short, few things teach people the risks of loving others than war. It also gives some the opportunity to become heroes, to hone and use talents that would otherwise atrophy. God raised up armies to attack people in the past, and made it quite clear that the Philistine attacks, the Chaldean attacks, the Midian attacks, the Assyrian Empire, the Babylonian Empire, and others were His creation, intended to punish disobedience and get people to recognize the truth and return to Him. Why couldn't SkyNet be a similar choice by God to raise up a force that would force humanity to unify and ultimately return to Him?
In short, the argument that the absence of miracle means God is not defending His creation is completely devoid of merit, and an insult to the game, never mind God.

--M. J. Young
Sun Oct 17 2010 8:40 pm #
JohnA1nut
Member

In short, the argument that the absence of miracle means God is not defending His creation is completely devoid of merit, and an insult to the game, never mind God.

Let me put it another way. Isn't it reasonable that God foresaw the arrival of a servant (ME!!) who could use magic beyond the capabilities of anyone there, and thus, decided it best to give that servant (ME!!!) every reasonable advantage He could offer? It's a 7@13 magic bias. Indigs can only do 7@ magic. I can do much higher. God foresaw that, and designed the magic bias accordingly. Reasonable?

(Doing Therapy)

Mon Oct 18 2010 3:52 am #
Tadeusz
Member

That is a much more reasonable statement, IMO.

And it could be interesting to have a world in which the Revolt of the Machines is for God's Purpose of getting the self-indulgengent, greedy, and self-centered to join in mutual love and trust and turn back to Him.

Say a world in which Robots take care of most everything, and people live isolated except when they go out to find ways to torture each other....and then the bots rebel and decide to do away with the Humans.

Mon Oct 18 2010 1:26 pm #
kyler
Member

It sounds more like AI than Terminator.

That's where the issue comes in. He wanted to run Terminator, but there aren't angels fighting machines in Terminator.

Giving you a GE roll for the bias was a poor judgment call in my opinion; I trust it was an attempt to keep your interest without a lot of forethought as to how it was disrupt the balance of the universe. 7@13 is a curve of 20; that seems to me to be more than enough to stop Armageddon somehow.

Mon Oct 18 2010 2:11 pm #
JohnA1nut
Member

hat seems to me to be more than enough to stop Armageddon somehow.

Can't stop it. Stop it, you create an infinity loop. You know that Kyler.

Mon Oct 18 2010 2:43 pm #
kyler
Member

If you stop armageddon in the A-B timeline you do not create an infinity loop; you know this. Right now, you're not in the A-B timeline, but you're in a world with a magic curve of 20; you might find a way to get there, and there are always botches, too.

Mon Oct 18 2010 2:51 pm #
JohnA1nut
Member

there are always botches, too.

Right, I was thinking that too. That's part of what makes a high mag bias a more interesting story. You're not gonna make a really interesting mistake in a flatline world.

Mon Oct 18 2010 2:57 pm #
kyler
Member

Oh, but you could. Tech and bod botches are still available.

Mon Oct 18 2010 3:00 pm #
JohnA1nut
Member

We're not gonna convince each other. I understand it, and I will never understand it.

Mon Oct 18 2010 3:05 pm #
Brock
Member

Uhm...There are plenty of interesting things you can do with a tech botch in Terminator. How about when you are reprogramming an inactive Terminator, botch, and it turns out to have a fatal error that forces it to revert to it's original program at THE MOST inopportune time? A Weapon use botch where you shhot an ally, and the team thinks you have turned or are yourself a Terminator?

Bod botch-leaping an enormous gap and botching, fall in and crack your skull open, possibly dying...or waking up in the middle of a ditch with no sign of your team, and only your weapon against the Terminator hordes?

Tue Oct 19 2010 3:21 am #
kyler
Member

Leaping an enormous gap and falling in would be a failure; a botch would be slipping as you went to jump and so bashing your face into the side on the way down, or spraining your ankle on the jump, or getting your foot caught in something and hanging from it, or jumping too far, crashing into one of your teammates on the other side and the falling backwards and dragging them with you.

Reprogramming a Terminator botches: haha, now it only wants to do your laundry and when you try to stop it it attacks you.

Tue Oct 19 2010 3:26 am #

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