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Interview: George Vasilakos

January 19, 2000 in Articles


Graveyard Greg: Who are you?

Unknown Zombie: I’m George Vasilakos, head Zombie Lord over at Eden Studios —
Artist/Designer/Dad.

GG: How did you get into the Gaming Industry?

GV: I started a gaming store after I finished art school. When a few of my
customers and friends formed a gaming company to make the Battlelords CCG,
they needed a graphic designer and art director (and some money). So I jumped
feet first into a small gaming company with big dreams called New Millennium
Entertainment.

The company didn’t do to well with Battlelords, but its second game
Conspiracy X did nicely. When NME went under, I aquired the rights to
Conspiracy X, found some investors, closed my store and started Eden Studios.

GG: I remember Battlelords…and speaking of gaming credits…

Give us your Gaming Industry credits–past and present!

GV: I co-authored D&D with Gary Gygax . . . before I came along it was called
Dungeons and Gophers . . . I set the bonehead straight and the rest is
history.

GG: Tell me you’re kidding.

GV: Just kidding . . . aside from running Eden Studios, I’ve done all the graphic
design and art direction on the Conspiracy X line, the layout and covers for
the WitchCraft line, and some freelance art for Pinnacle’s Hell On Earth RPG.
I also designed the Abduction non-collectible card game.

GG: Are you the Pumpkin King?

GV: No. I’m a mild mannered game designer/artist.

GG: Right now everyone is slavering for the newest RPG coming soon from Eden
Studios–ALL FLESH MUST BE EATEN. Sounds gross! Mind telling the uninformed
about the concept behind this creepy game?

GV: Unlike most traditional RPGs out there, ALL FLESH MUST BE EATEN doesn’t have
one set campign setting or world background. You are presented with numerous
“Deadworlds,” each with a unigue setting and reason why the dead are walking
about. This style of presentation allows gamers to play in any genre,
background, theme or manner they wish. Play a serious survival game, a campy
comedy horror game, a heavy supernatural game, a lighter, more “real” world
game — it’s up to you.

To me, the core of this game is the idea of being trapped and having to deal
with mindless smelly zombies and their insatiable hunger. It’s a game about
survival horror . . . did I mention I used to run a game store?

GG: How did the title come to exist?

GV: Well Christopher Shy, cover artist and co-concept creator of ALL FLESH MUST
BE EATEN, gets the credit for the final title. I was dying when he suddenly
spewed out the name. A game with a name like that is a guaranteed sell, I
thought to myself.

GG: I…see.

Were there other titles in consideration? If so, name a few!

GV:

  • ERNEST vs THE ZOMBIES
  • EAT THIS FANBOY
  • CORPSE: THE ROTTING
  • ZOMBIE: THE SLAVERING
  • SOCK MONKEYS MARCH ON BROADWAY

As you can see, they just didn’t seem to have the same impact as ALL FLESH
MUST BE EATEN.

GG: You got that right!

Favorite Zombie music?

GV: Brittany Spears. Nine Inch Nails comes a close second.

GG: Did you do all of the writing for All Flesh?

GV: Heck no. I came up with most of the concepts and found people who are good at
writing to “flesh” it out. Richard Dakan gets first credit as he worked up my
admittedly sketchy descriptions for the various “Deadworlds” and zombie
creation. The game mechanics credits go to CJ Carella since we are using his
Unisystem, the same rules used for WitchCraft and Armageddon. The flavor text
and short stories get attributed to Albert Bruno III, a very talented horror
writer and old buddy of mine. The book also has a nice Forward by Shane
(Deadlands) Hensley about Zombies. Finally, there’s Alex Jurkat, my partner
in crime over here at Eden. As head editor at Eden, he cleans up everyones
writing, fills in the gaps and transitions, and organizes it all into a
polished product. That said, ALL FLESH MUST BE EATEN does contain my first
attempt at writing. I wrote the introduction chapter.

GG: Favorite Zombie food?

GV: Brittany Spears. Mexican food . . . behold the power of cheese and the All
Flesh Must Be Eaten Chocolate Bar. Yum.

GG: How did you come up with this crazy game, anyway?

GV: That’s a funny story actually . . . see I was on a “date” with a transexual
Vietnamese escort when I happened to spot Tom Hanks across the alley from me.
I said to my companion, “Hey that’s Tom Hanks!” Thing is he/she didn’t
understand a word of English and when he/she tried to speak with her mouth
full, it sounded like “Zombie games are the next big thing.” Who was I to
argue!

But seriously . . . I think AFMBE been something every gamer has wanted. I
know I’ve wanted a game like this since the first time I saw DAWN OF THE
DEAD. Once Resident Evil came out and brought those damn zombies back into
the light, it was only a matter of time before we saw a paper and pencil
roleplaying game based on zombie survival horror. I remember sitting in front
of my TV playing Resident Evil 2 coming up with initial designs for the game.
Someone had to do it and take the blame. So blame me.

GG: What is the best zombie movie you’ve ever seen?

GV: Titanic.

GG: Oooooooookay.

Worst zombie movie you’ve ever seen?

GV: The Brittany Spears Story.

GG: …

In your opinion, what makes zombies so scary?

GV: They look human but they’re not . . .
They cannot be reasoned with . . .
They have no jobs, no desires, no hopes . . .
They smell bad . . .
They are ruled by their undying hunger for more . . . more . . . more.

(Did I mention I used to run a game store that sold collectible card games?)

GG: Yes, you did.

The dead have risen from their graves! It’s time for CELEBRITY DEATHMATCH!

Waiting at the 3rd tombstone is John Kovalic, creator of DORK TOWER. His
opponent is none other than JOLLY BLACKBURN, creator of KNIGHTS OF THE
DINNER TABLE. Both are famous for making people drop dead with laughter, but
the one who loses tonight will be fresh meat for the undead! Who wins, and
how do they achieve victory? (NOTE: Be as creative and funny as possible.
You want to add some cameos, go right ahead!)

GV: Well, first John “draws” a large black marker, and pens a Muskrat Pokemon
called Dorkachew. Then, Jolly dives behind a conveniently placed dinner table
and whips out a John Wick Gaming Voard. “No fair!” cries John. Suddenly a
battle beyond description ensues between the John Wick Voard and the
Dorkachew.

Awed by the spectacle, no one hears the shambling of a hoarde of zombies as
they enter the arena. Flesh is ripped from the bone as John and Jolly try to
escape. Stabbing at the undead with art tools, but to no avail, they cannot
stop them. It gets ugly really quick and no one is laughing.

When the dust settles and the blood dries, the only thing left “alive” are
the zombies.

GG: Shameless plug time! You can find your very own Gaming Voard at http://voard.tripod.com/Voard.htm

What kind of supplements can we expect for All Flesh Must Be Eaten?

GV: Pending any Y2K complications here at Eden, we hope to release Enter the
Zombie shortly after the mainbook’s release. This book strives to open whole
new vistas for your zombies-gaming enjoyment. It includes everything
necessary to bring together the thrills of Hong Kong action films and good
old fashioned flesh-eating excitement. This book will have detailed rules on
how to play martial arts zombies. It also introduces four new campaign
settings inspired by John Woo movies, Big Trouble in Little China and Mortal
Kombat. It should be a nice little book.

We are also working on Zombie Master Screen with a 48-page insert that will
come with new archtypes, equipment and an intro adventure. Finally, we have a
a pulp setting campaign sourcebook for AFMBE, currently entitled Pulp Zombie.
This book will introduce various magics and settings set in the 30s and 40s.

GG: Any last words before we send you back to your grave?

GV: Yes, I keep seeing posts and groanings that the gaming industry’s salad days
are behind us. That paper and pencil and dice are going to be replaced by the
modem, the internet and the graphics card.

I don’t believe that. I believe that the gaming industry is headed for a
shining new Renaissance, and new age of creative freedom.

And I believe that the gaming Voard (http://voard.tripod.com/Voard.htm) will
be the bridge that brings us to this new Golden Age.

Remember . . . all flesh must be eaten.

GG: …sometimes I wonder where I dig up these interviewees…

David Williams

May 12, 1999 in Articles

“Bang, you’re dead.” “Nope, you missed me.” “No, I didn’t.”

That’s the classic example of why we put rules in our games – to settle disputes and to give everyone a level playing field. But it’s also an example of the story affecting the ‘rules’ of the game.

The person being shot at could have responded all sorts of ways to justify his continued existence – “Bounced off my Titanium Armor”, or “You can’t see me, I’m invisible” or even “The bullet goes right through this holographic simulation of me.” The point is that the background story of the game can and should dictate how the rules work within the story.

Now, it’s possible to have a game without benefit of story (Chess, for example), and stories can be told without a game behind them. By far, however, the standard in the adventure gaming industry is to combine them; mechanics are set based on the story, and story pulls together all of the mechanics. Even the name “Adventure gaming” combines the two elements of story and mechanics.

Two of the big styles of games right now are Collectible Card Games (CCGs), and Role-Playing Games (RPGs). There really isn’t anyone out there that would argue that they represent the two sides of that spectrum between stories and game mechanics. Certainly, RPGs focus more heavily on the world and background as the players work together to create an interesting story. In RPGs, winning tends to be a fairly nebulous concept, and character development (and thus story development) is truly the primary goal. CCGs, however, have a much greater focus on winning. Because of that focus, the mechanics which keep the playing-field level are much more important than they are in an RPG.

However, neither mechanics nor story works best without the other. The best games have a interesting and absorbing world that draws in the players and a set of rules that enhance rather than distract from that world, while still providing the balance of a good set of mechanics.

But what happens when a CCG becomes and RPG? What happens when an RPG becomes a CCG? I’ve been fortunate enough to have been the lead designer on two CCGs – Legend of the Five Rings and Deadlands: Doomtown. For those that are unfamiliar with these two worlds, Legend of the Five Rings (L5R) is set in the empire of Rokugan – a fantasy version of feudal Japan, and Deadlands is set just after the civil war in the U.S. except that magic, mad scientists, and zombies fight for control and the ‘wild west’ has become the ‘weird west’.

When we began the design of L5R, we knew that we had to be different somehow. The CCG market had peaked and was beginning it’s descent. Games were starting fail where before any CCG that came along was making money hand-over-fist. One of our first goals was to build the world along with the cards. Rather than a game where the players had nebulous goals, we wanted our players to be able to answer the basic “Ws” of Journalism while they played their games. “Who am I”? “Why am I fighting this person”? “Where are we”? “What are we fighting about”? If the players had those questions in mind while they were playing, then the story of the game would answer itself, but if even one of those questions couldn’t be answered, then the game would be as abstract as moving pieces around the board in Risk or Monopoly.

To answer all of those questions, there had to be some large back-story within which all of the “mini-conflicts” that the players would be playing would make sense. Even in the beginning of development of the CCG, we knew that we would need to do as much world development on the CCG as companies typically spend on their RPGs. So, that’s where we started. We actually spent the first month of development of the CCG without any mechanics or cards; we only worked on the world of Rokugan and the people in it. So, when we were ready to work on the actual card game, we already had a detailed and (hopefully) interesting world to set it in.

Then, over the next couple of years, as we continued to develop the card game, the world got more and more detail added to it. Three years later, when we finally began developing the L5R RPG, we actually had more detailed story information than we could possibly fit into a core rulebook. It was simply a matter of deciding on which information to pass along in the first book, and what to save for future books. After that, we chose a set of mechanics that we thought fit the style and flavor of Rokugan, and sent the book to press. Possibly the easiest core RPG that anyone has ever written, just because we had spent 3 years getting ready to write it.

Just a little while later, we got the contract to design a CCG set in the Deadlands world. This was an entirely different design problem than the L5R CCG had been. This time, we were playing in someone else’s sandbox. Also, their sandbox had a whole bunch of rules we weren’t allowed to break. Now, those rules made the sandbox very cool, but they presented two very distinct issues.

First of all, unlike the L5R CCG, we didn’t have complete control over the world – the rules had already been written in Deadlands and we couldn’t just do whatever we wanted to. One example of this was that originally, we were designing spells to work like action cards – you play the card using a spell-caster, but then it goes to the discard pile. When the guys at Pinnacle (the owners and original developers of the Deadlands RPG and world) saw that, they gave us a call and we had to change it – spells would attach to the spell caster so that they could use them over and over again.

On the other side of the same coin, however, is that all of the rules and the world that Pinnacle had developed were so cool and interesting that it also made our job easier. We didn’t have to decide why magic worked, or how zombies were walking around, or what people would be fighting for in the CCG – Pinnacle’s world had already created the “Who, what, where and why” that would put players smack into the middle of an exciting story when they sat down to play the card game. It became our job simply to make the rules that would keep the CCG fun to play.

We knew from the beginning that we wanted to have mechanics that immediately gave over the feel of the old west. The initial design work on the game was done by Matt Wilson and Matt Staroscik before they left to follow some new opportunities for them. They left a terribly sound foundation that we built on both in story and mechanics. It had been decided that we would be working within one little boomtown in the corner of the Deadlands world. While the ‘rules’ of Deadlands were in place there, we could basically do whatever we wanted within the tiny town of Gomorra. It was a good arrangement, giving us a degree of freedom without risking any of the stories that Pinnacle was developing outside of northern California.

Because the back story was a Boomtown, the obvious “why” was answered – lots and lots of money (money in this case being the mysterious ‘ghost rock’ fuel that makes the world of Deadlands go). The “what” gave us our winning condition – control of the town. Once we knew we wanted control of the town to be the focus, we had to find a way to gain control of the town. Besides just influence, this being the old west, we had to have gunfights all the time and they had to be fun.

Fortunately, just about everyone out there has played Poker, so we were able to get away with a combat mechanic that is actually relatively complex, but is really easy to teach people – they already know it! Everything after that was details, and incorporating the long-term story into the characters and events of the game. In the end, we were very happy with the results and Pinnacle was pleased with our handling of their ‘baby’ – everybody won.

Both of these worlds, Legend of the Five Rings and Deadlands, are entire properties at this point – they each have a Collectible Card Game, Role Playing Game, and Miniatures Game line going strong and each of them is developing into other areas as well. Each of those games has to fit together for the story to stay cohesive. A duel is a duel. A gunfight is a gunfight. When the story and the mechanics enhance each other, you’ve got a game that’s really fun to play. When they don’t, it’s time to go back to “Bang, I gotcha”.

-David Williams is the driving force behind the Legend of the Five Rings CCG and RPG, and the Doomtown CCG. Just don’t call him out for a shootout at High Noon.

Interview: Shane Lacy Hensley

April 26, 1999 in Articles

Gaming Outpost’s Graveyard Greg asked Shane Lacy Hensley, creator of Deadlands: The Weird West, how he came up with the Weird West RPG. Here’s his reply:

The deal is, I was at GenCon doing the freelancing thing. I had just completed work on Thunderscape for SSI and was working on some new TSR projects. One of the many cool things I saw at GenCon was a picture of an undead Confederate by Brom (it became the cover to Vampire’s Necropolis Atlanta). That image stuck with me during the long 14 hour drive home through the night. I frequently have neat ideas during this long trip after being surrounded by so much creativity at GC, but this one just wouldn’t die (literally!).
A few months later, I kit-bashed a system and ran a “historical” Civil War game. Or so my friends thought. At the end of the second session, I had them all caught and hung. They awoke in 1876 in the desert, in what eventually became the adventure from Book o’ the Dead.

Everybody loved the game and Charles Ryan of Chameleon Eclectic wanted me to publish it through him as I had Fields of Honor and the Last Crusade. I knew this would be a full-time gig if I did, though, and set about the arduous task of making Pinnacle a full-time company. I then flew Greg Gorden and Matt Forbeck down to help me put things together, and they decided they wanted to be part of the company as well. Greg was having personal problems at the time and bowed out, but came up with several key concepts before leaving (Fate Chips were one of Greg’s insights). He also hooked me up with Allan Nunis, who did a quick comic book page showing a gambler throwing cards as he cast spells. That became the huckster.

As for the system, I had the idea that I wanted the Trait to tell you what type of die to roll, and the skill would tell you how many. It just went from there.

The cards were used for initiative because we wanted a system that let most characters act once or twice in a round, but a gunslinger could get off several shots. But how do you do that without the gunslinger going first and killing everyone first? Our system lets you break down a combat into tiny fragments of time and simulates the fast action of a Spaghetti Western without making everyone else sit around and watch the gunslingers all night.

Fate Chips: I wanted a tangible reward for roleplaying and solving the adventure. Greg Gorden figured out how to make it work.

From there it was a trip to GAMA in Atlantic City, and then the debut of Deadlands at GenCon ’96.

Shane Lacy Hensley started freelancing for West End Games, TSR, White Wolf, FASA, SSI, and every other major game company in the industry in 1992. He’s written 3 novels, over 50 game products, several card games, scripted two computer games, and of course, created the hit Deadlands. He’s a long-time resident of Blacksburg, VA, with his wife Michelle, and their incredible son, Caden Lacy.