Episode 5: A Conversation With Joe Cottonworthy

The following was a telephone conversation held between Mr. Cottonworthy and myself a few weeks ago. I thought about editing it down, but then, liked the natural flow of the conversation, and felt edits would just make the whole thing feel artificial. So, here it is, in all its raw glory. Have fun!

JOHN WICK
Let's start at the beginning. What made you want to do Warhamster?

JOE COTTONWORTHY
I have no idea. At first, it started as a joke, you know? I think everyone has delusions of making a roleplaying game, I was no different.

WICK
Did you know it was going to be so much trouble?

COTTONWORTHY
I thought it would be easy. Dungeons and Dragons didn't look like all that much work went into it. (laughter) I liked the idea and thought I could do it, too. I didn't know it would be as much work as it turned out to be.

WICK
How much work was it?

COTTONWORTHY
Months of it. You have to understand, this is before the concept of "broken" showed up. "Breaking rules" is a new idea that came out of Magic, I think. I never heard the term before then.

WICK
Come to think of it, neither had I.

COTTONWORTHY
I mean, I was on the periphery of game design when Magic was in the stores, but I still play a lot of wargames and computer games. But I mean, here comes Magic and the idea that you can find holes in the game to make your deck the best, the better, I mean, better than everyone else's.

WICK
And somehow, this gets translated into roleplaying games.

COTTONWORTHY
Exactly.

WICK
I remember bringing Hunters, Inc. to All-Star Games, and Jim Pinto was there. I showed him the basics for the Roll & Keep system Dave Williams and I designed, and he took one look at it and made some observation and said, "There. I broke your game." That was the first time I heard it.

COTTONWORTHY
Right. And back then, we had no clue what a "broken game" was. We were assuming people were making up rules as they went. That was what I was doing, at least. I don't know about Marc Miller, or anyone else.

WICK
Speaking of Marc, I made a comment about Social Status...

COTTONWORTHY
(laughing) Yes. I remember that. I took the idea for Social Status from Traveller, not the other way around.

WICK
Setting the record straight!

COTTONWORTHY
But we didn't do game balancing the same way you did with your card games. The idea of hundreds of playtesters...

WICK
I don't know about hundreds...

COTTONWORTHY
But even more than just me in my room, throwing dice in a box, trying to figure out if the damn thing actually worked or not. That was playtesting.

WICK
Still, you came out with a very good game.

COTTONWORTHY
That's up for debate. I think it's a complete game.

WICK
Right. The Bonus system is what always gets me.

COTTONWORTHY
Bonuses were an idea I came up with to accommodate new rules. I was finding that every time I ran the game, I needed to make up a new game system to accommodate every individual situation. I hated that. So, I tried coming up with a system that would accommodate, I mean, a single system that would accommodate every situation.

WICK
And that's where Bonuses came into it?

COTTONWORTHY
But it wasn't all that clean. I went through a number of other systems first.

WICK
See! Playtesting!

COTTONWORTHY
Sure. You can call it playtesting. I call it stumbling around in the dark until you find the flashlight.

WICK
For those who don't know, explain how the Bonus System works.

COTTONWORTHY
Well, in a nutshell, you take the average of your relevant characteristics. For a Damage Bonus, I think the average of your Strength and Size.

WICK
Right.

COTTONWORTHY
And your Stealth Bonus was your Agility and Wits minus your Size, wasn't it?

WICK
I think so. Yes.

COTTONWORTHY
Then, you just roll under that number. I put a bunch of them together, then put a few blank ones on the character sheet for game masters to come up with their own when they needed them.

WICK
That was important to me. Seeing that I could make up game mechanics myself.

COTTONWORTHY
I don't see why not, I mean, if I can do it, just about anyone else can do it.

WICK
What experience did you have with game design before you designed Warhamster?

COTTONWORTHY
None, really. I mean, I played a lot of games, but Warhamster was my first attempt. My degree was in Graphic Design.

WICK
Did you have any goals when you started?

COTTONWORTHY
I wanted it to be simple. I mean, you can go two ways with game design, it seems to me. You can assume that every situation is unique and requires a unique ruling, or you can assume that everything pretty much works the same way, it's just the situation modifies the mechanic.

WICK
That's a really nice way of putting it.

COTTONWORTHY
I mean, they have the same philosophy with the new Dungeons and Dragons. One mechanic, modified by the situation. A lot better than before.

WICK
What do you think of the new D&D?

COTTONWORTHY
It's funny, I like a lot of things, but it's not a very well-thought out product.

WICK
How's that?

COTTONWORTHY
I mean, well not to be too critical, because I really think its a very well designed game, and I can see a lot of good thought went into how to make it, I mean, to bring it up to date with new game design philosophies.

WICK
But...

COTTONWORTHY
Well, from a graphic designer's point of view (laughter), the book isn't very pretty. It looks like someone forgot that lesson we learned in first grade: the words go above the line.

WICK
Yeah. That does make it pretty hard to read.

COTTONWORTHY
I don't know what they were thinking. And the art - I mean, most of it is very good. But there's no excuse to have black and white in a color book. No excuse at all.

WICK
I couldn't get passed page five, myself. The "welcome to the game that's defined the fantastic imagination" line just killed me.

COTTONWORTHY
I missed that. I don't read introductions.

WICK
Pissed me off. Like there's been no other RPG in the world. And like D&D's been the "cutting edge" all these years, ignoring everything that everyone else has done to move the industry forward.

COTTONWORTHY
I thought it was interesting they decided not to put any world development in the product.

WICK
I mean, a two hundred and eighty page rulebook? If that was any other game - any other game at all - it would be a flop. A joke. Go right up there on the shelf next to every other generic fantasy RPG that I own and never play.

COTTONWORTHY
Now, asking me about Dungeons and Dragons wasn't just an excuse for you to complain about it, was it?

WICK
(laughing) Maybe it was and maybe it wasn't.

COTTONWORTHY
Well. Maybe we should talk about something else, then.

WICK
I'll let you finish.

COTTONWORTHY
No, that's all right. Ask me about something else.

WICK
Okay. How about Jery Jax's Warhamster?

COTTONWORTHY
I can see where this is going.

WICK
Seriously. What did you think of it?

COTTONWORTHY
(long pause) I think Jery had a lot of enthusiasm. He did a lot to expand the game.

WICK
Okay, we can talk about something else.

COTTONWORTHY
Thank you.

WICK
Why no hobbits?

COTTONWORTHY
I think you mentioned this in your column. I think hobbits belong in Middle-Earth. Tolkein invented them, stealing them out of his world and calling them something else is nothing short of plagiarism.

WICK
I can't disagree with that. But Warhamster has elves and dwarves...

COTTONWORTHY
But Tolkein didn't invent elves and dwarves. He invented hobbits. He just took Norse elves and Celtic dwarves -

WICK
I think that's the other way around.

COTTONWORTHY
Oh well. He used traditional images of elves and dwarves. But orcs and goblins, if you're going to use those, you should really make an effort to do something different with them.

WICK
(laughing) Again. I can't disagree with that.

COTTONWORTHY
Of course. Sorry, I forgot.

WICK
So, what are different about Warhamster elves and dwarves?

COTTONWORTHY
I created a place called Dragonwood Forest. I wanted to avoid fantasy clichés, so I made dragons creatures akin to the angels, as servants of the creator. They helped create the world, and the task was so great, the magic so powerful, they fell asleep.

WICK
Had to sleep off the magic?

COTTONWORTHY
Exactly. And when they fell to sleep, they turned into forests. Elves were the creatures who agreed to guard the forests, the sleeping dragons.

WICK
What about Darkwood?

COTTONWORTHY
That's a dragon the elves lost. Now, it's inhabited by lots of nasty creatures, all feeding off the power of the sleeping dragon.

WICK
That's very nice. Elves drawing magic from the sleeping dragon, protecting it.

COTTONWORTHY
It made sense. Its one of the reasons I wanted to do elves differently. I didn't feel they made sense in the context they were presented in Dungeons and Dragons. They were simply Middle-Earth elves with a paint job.

WICK
(laughing) Let's talk a second about Fate and Fortune.

COTTONWORTHY
Right.

WICK
That was a predominant concept in the original Warhamster, but it got a little muted when Jax transferred it over...

COTTONWORTHY
You mean, "lost" right?

WICK
All right. Lost.

COTTONWORTHY
I just got done reading Moorcock's Elric and Hawkmoon books, I couldn't find Corum anywhere, and I was intrigued with the idea of Law and Chaos. Obviously, other people were equally enamored with it, and made it a part of their game.

WICK
You mean Dungeons and Dragons, of course.

COTTONWORTHY
Yes. But again, I felt that belonged to Moorcock, and putting it in my game, just because I thought it was a good idea, seemed to me to be a bit of a bad idea. I wanted something new and different. Well, something different at least.

WICK
That's where Fate and Fortune came into it?

COTTONWORTHY
I took a poetry class once, and the teacher wanted us to do a personification piece. Pick two ideas that are complimentary or contrary and write a brief bit about them. What I wrote in that class ended up on the frontpiece of the book.

WICK
(reading from the book) Just a second... "Lady Fortune suggested to Dame Fate they draw lots to see who would make the world. Dame Fate knew the outcome, but had no choice but to play."

COTTONWORTHY
I hate hearing my writing read out loud.

WICK
It's like - well, just bad, isn't it?

COTTONWORTHY
Yes. Besides, it's not really poetic. For poetry, I mean.

WICK
I don't know. It's really inspired.

COTTONWORTHY
I wanted my world to be a world in conflict between Fate and Fortune. I had taken a philosophy class and discovered the evils of determinism and the faults in the arguments of freewill...

WICK
Professor Reuz. Yeah. I had him, too.

COTTONWORTHY
Is he still teaching?

WICK
I don't know. He was when I was at the U of M.

COTTONWORTHY
That's funny. I liked the idea, disagreed with Ruez...

WICK
You mean, you buy the freewill argument?

COTTONWORTHY
I have to. There's not a lot of choice in the matter, is there?

WICK
Well said.

COTTONWORTHY
I wanted to explore the idea in short stories. The whole idea being the game as a kind of writing exercise. If I could get through the game, I could write a novel.

WICK
I know that line of thinking. Problem is, I keep writing games, and never get to writing the novel.

COTTONWORTHY
Games are harder, I found. A novel just has to be concerned with its own internal logic. A game, on the other hand, has to adhere to other people's logic. Gamers ask questions. In a novel, you don't even have to address the questions. They just sit down, read the book, and buy what you tell them.

WICK
I found that out when I was with Chris Hepler and Jennifer Brandes a few months ago. It was right after watching The Matrix. I loved it. They hated it. Too many questions, and not enough answers.

COTTONWORTHY
That's because gamers are questioning types. They want to know why and how things work because they have to make them work. In a short story, you control the characters behaviors, skipping around the hard questions by never bringing up circumstances where they get asked. In a roleplaying game, players are always asking questions you don't want to answer.

WICK
Making it hard to write one of those things, because everyone wants to know different details.

COTTONWORTHY
Exactly.

WICK
Let's get back to that Fate/Fortune thing. We're almost out of tape.

COTTONWORTHY
Right. So, when you created a character, you chose to be a pawn of Fate or Fortune. Fated characters got Fate Points which allowed them to force Characteristics.

WICK
What does that mean?

COTTONWORTHY
It means that if you and I get into a test, let's say a fight, and my Attack Bonus is bigger, I spend a Fate Point, and I win. I was fated to win, because my Bonus is higher.

WICK
And Fortune Points worked in a similar way?

COTTONWORTHY
Fortune Points, a player gets more of them, to start. He has a number of Fortune Points and calls out certain numbers at the beginning of the game.

WICK
From one to one thousand.

COTTONWORTHY
Yes. And if he rolls that number during the game, he gets a critical success and more Fortune Points, ignoring whether he succeeded in the roll or not.

WICK
So, it's harder to get a Fortune Point, but you get more of them.

COTTONWORTHY
That's right.

WICK
Okay, we've got time for one more question. Why don't you ask me a question about third edition.

COTTONWORTHY
All right. I wasn't really prepared to be asking you questions.

WICK
Shoot. Ask anything you want.

COTTONWORTHY
Um... (long pause)

WICK
Remember, we're almost out of tape!

COTTONWORTHY
All right. What elements of second edition will you be using?

WICK
That's a good question. Some elements I have to use. I have to address some parts of it because fans are so used to it. You can't just drop them from the game, because then you make the game too different, and people get turned off.

COTTONWORTHY
You're avoiding the question.

WICK
No, I'm not!

COTTONWORTHY
So, you mean to tell me that you'll include elements of second edition because the public wants it that way, not because it's good game design?

WICK
No! I mean, there's a sense of familiarity that you just can't drop. It would be like dropping Charisma from the D&D line-up. I mean, yes, it really didn't do anything in the game, but they found a way to use it.

COTTONWORTHY
Found a reason to keep it, you mean.

WICK
Something like that.

COTTONWORTHY
So, what are you going to keep?

WICK
The spell system, I think.

COTTONWORTHY
No rolls for skills, you mean?

WICK
Yeah. I liked that. Spending your Spell Bonus as points, rather than adding them to a Casting Roll.

COTTONWORTHY
Interesting.

WICK
You don't sound pleased.

COTTONWORTHY
No, no. Some changes have to be made. That's all.

WICK
All right. Well, we're out of time. Thanks for talking with me. I appreciate it.

COTTONWORTHY
Not at all. I'm looking forward to seeing the game - for the first time, as John puts it. (Ending on pleasantries.)