I have seen quite a lot of very interesting stuff generated on this board in the past few weeks, and have been very impressed by much of it. I think there's a lot of useful stuff there. However, mixed within it are occasional passing comments that suggest something that I never said and never meant.
I am not looking to add fan-created materials to the Valdron web site as such. That is, I'm not going to find something posted here and copy it as a web page there.
What I am doing is including links from that support site to fan-created stuff (and in this, a fair amount of my own stuff is being classed as "fan created") which is of good quality and reasonably accessible and useful.
That means it is unlikely that I would include hundreds of links to forum threads. Forum threads tend to be cluttered with comments and changes, and to cover very small pieces of information. It also means that I'm not eager to see a hundred very short articles, either--one article as a list of twenty guns, another as twenty types of bullets, another as twenty types of swords, this is too many links each providing inadequate information.
Things I would link:
- Single articles with significant substance. If someone were to do an article that addressed multiple concerns about explosive driven slug throwers, including types, optional adjustments for variety, variations in bullets, ranges and repeat factors, and other miscellaneous aspects of firearms, it could include these "d10" and "d20" lists as part of the material. Similarly, something on the advantages and limitations of various types of swords or martial weapons or whatever, an article on constructing ecosystems--articles that are not so narrowly defined that you need five of them to accomplish one part of the world design.
- A web site or section of a web site in which short lists were posted as separate pages, but indexed and linked from a main page. Good examples of this kind of approach include my martial arts in role playing games site, but also The Frontier: Milieu Integration in 1st Edition Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, or (even better, and more useful perhaps to Multiverser referees trying to do fantasy settings on the fly) Cults of the Past, a collection of imagined medieval secret societies, their beliefs and purposes and some of their function.
- Articles providing good insight and explanation of some aspect of play that is particularly useful to Multiverser referees. Intuition and Surprise is an example of this, as is Law and Enforcement in Imaginary Realms (already linked from the page giving my fan materials).
Note that there are a lot of things of mine I could have linked that might be useful to Multiverser referees--the Holidays for Imaginary Worlds might be very useful, as might the extensive indexed collection of gods on my AD&D character creation site. I'm not a person who finds long lists of things interesting (my eyes glaze over when I see the first number in the list) or particularly useful, so I err toward excluding them unless they are really brilliantly done, well organized, and/or good reading. I don't want to see a hundred links to a hundred different confusing short lists. I want every one of those links to take the reader to something useful that he probably could not have found at least as good on his own.
In short, if you're working on things on the forum, that's a good way to get feedback on them; but if you think they're something that should be linked from the Multiverser support site, please turn them into a web page or article somewhere else, and then call my attention to them so I can consider whether this is something well written, clear, and useful.
Thanks for understanding.
--M. J. Young
I'm glad you're impressed, and its no more than I expected. I'm broadly educated enough in the SF/F and Gaming realms to have a good guess as to when something is good. What troubles me is that you seem to place too low a value on sketch worlds, and on lists. This derives respectively, I believe from your assumption that a sketch world is too generic to promote Multiverser, and from your own personal dislike for lists. The first commits the sin of Apple which almost made them bankrupt, and the second derives from your own personal stance which is fairly unique. Your stance--Harvard Law, genius, Christian songwriter, rigorously logical and methodical to a great degree is waaaaaay at the end of a lot of bell curves. I trust I give no offense when I say you're not remotely normal. Neither am I. But I suspect I'm a little more normal than you, and I think I have a better grasp on what normal gamers want. I spent decades on figuring out normal people. You went to Harvard Law instead. So trust me on this, please.
I intended to agglomerate forum threads into a single forum thread (forex--take all the vampire threads, and turn them into one post on vampires.) You seem to be requiring that such an agglomeration take place (which is reasonable), and that furthermore the producer put in several thousand words on the nature of vampirism.
I can flip to my Champions 4th Ed. Super-Tech Heroes book. It has fifty characters, an intro, and a scenario adaptation suggestion of two pages worth, and a page of advertisements, and a table of contents. The writers probably got paid .05 a word as well.
I can go to a website for Champions (another math heavy game like Multiverser), and find characters, and maybe short team backgrounds ( a hundred words), and also character backgrounds. I did this for running Champions at Constellation.
Champions has in many ways what you want. Or SHOULD want. It has a dedicated core of players, and gamemasters. Many are moderately evangelical about the game. They have a long-term attachment to the game. I've gamed with teenagers and guys in their fifties at Champions. Also, it has a lot of websites produced by the players, and produced by various game designers. You can go onto the web, and find hundreds of Champions characters.
And rarely will you find an essay on the nature of superheroism. They do get produced,and they are valuable. But most websites focus on the characters.
I personally think that such Champions websites have a too narrow focus, at least for Multiverser. But the counter-insistence on a full-fledged article is also not a good idea. I don't know if you've ever seen Central Casting, but it did well enough to have at least one sequel, and I think more.
One problem right now is you guys have nothing. You need to start with something, and then build on it. Build the first floor, and then go back,a nd build the second later. Start with a set of lists, and then see if you can get me, or some other guy to do something more.
Open Source Game Design.
==I want every one of those links to take the reader to something useful that he probably could not have found at least as good on his own.== This is a mistake. You want to have every resource the gamer might need on your own website, or links to such. The fact that GURPS has an alternate timeline game set-up doesn't stop you from producing Multverser, right?
Right now, you have pretty close to nothing in the way of world design material. You may quote your 'Law' article and such to refute me, but the difference between '4' articles and '95' on a hundred point test is enough that saying 4=0 is reasonable.
The sole question is for world design on your website is thus: Can a GM take what is offered and make a good world with it? And the answer is 'No, there simply is not enough'. What is there is good, but having a good pair of wingtips and no pants or shirt does not make a man dressed.
I've gotta go. More later. I'll also discuss the Nature of the 21st Century Business. Transparency, Openess, Networks....all the jargon needed to spin your head, and make you vomit pea soup.
I could go on at length, and to your profit I think, but let me cut to the main point with a story from my life.
My first serious RPG campaign I played in was run by a guy AE. J was a player, as was I. AE is a smart guy, a low-level professional, and a nice guy in general, but when they made up the words 'railroading Gamemaster' they were thinking of him. In our first game at a con, we the party went from start to a bridge with a block to a tower with a wizard. No deviation accepted. Pure RR.
Later we played in his own gameworld, one of those worlds that would probably make MJ wince the way he did when I first mentioned my D20 world (until he saw how it ran). I was unhappy with some things how he played, but I thought he played by the rules. J told me he didn't know the rules that well either.
J, for those not familar, is my supergenius 187 IQ friend with a Nuclear Physics degree. He's also one of the more dangerous people around as he's likely to be the last man standing. He's a survivor.
Now he's told me that I understand pretty much everything he says, but I don't know. Most of the time he slows up to not bother the people around him. Meeting him full speed is like getting hit by a truck.
I, well even then, I was probably a better GM than most people, or would soon be.
So me and J argued with AE. We tried to convince him to do things differently. It was amicable enough which is good. We came up with various unstoppable arguements, and AE just smiled, and refused to be convinced, and argued back.
We spent almost as much time arguing after the game as we spent gaming.
It reminds me of the Left and Bush in the run-up to the Iraq War. The Left kept saying 'nice try, but you didn't convince me. try again.' Well thats a sucker's game. But then I was pretty stupid in a smart way.
He did argue back too.
To give the feel of the game. We spent 26 weeks going from Level 6 to 7, and at the end I had less items than when I started. Every decision was sorta reasonable, and understandable, but on the whole it was a giant kick in the shin.
And at the end of the year, he told me I was a 'pompous !@#' which is true, and that he had been right all along because in some of his notes it seemed that his notes agreed with one of my ideas, but he hadn't been playing with it.
Both me and J agreed after this to NOT waste our time arguing with someone like that.
What to learn from this?
1. I can be obsessive, and massively stubborn.
2. I have waaaaaay too much faith in reason.
3. Some people are just unreasonable. That is, they are not suspect to reason, or to persuasion. They might listen with a smile, and answer back intelligently, but they don't have the ability to change their minds even if they really, really should.
4. In such a situation, you can either fight pointlessly and generate hard feelings, submit and get what good you can from the situation, or force a resolution. J got upset at yet another Giant Kick in the Shin from AE, and told AE to change it or he refused to play in the game further. The game stopped there.
I'm worried that I'm going to end up writing things that are better than what's on the website, but 'its not going to be good enough'. I notice that the President talked to me, and asked for questions. I gave him a couple, and offered to help, and would have welcomed some specifics as to what kind of help he wanted, and he just vanished.
I wouldn't mind some proof that I'm not dealing with AE again. It may be unjustified paranoia, but I have a tendency to get myself into that situation.
I've proven myself persuadable. I thought putting explanations for why I had certain DR's and SM's on various swords was too much. And maybe thats not what you asked for. I thought it sounded like more work than you'd be willing to do if you did it. But, I tried it, not very happily. And it wasn't as hard as I thought, and so I finished it.
This proves I can be persuaded which is not the same thing as reasoned with. Both are neccessary, although the first in this case is more important.
If I'm dealing with AE again, I really ought to back off, and try to minimize my efforts so as to minimize the strain. Instead of trying to be a Queen Bee, I should just be a happy little drone. The weird thing is, I'm trying to be a Queen Bee in an empty field with another Queen Bee ten fields away. It would be different if I was trying seriously to tell you how to do the 3rd Book, but I'm not.
Now, I could come up with a lot of reasons and what-not, but I'm not sure that would do any good.
I could be missing something (or a lot of things - after all, you two have probably known each other for longer than I've known either of your names), but it seems like some of the stuff you're arguing against here hasn't actually been said. It looks to me like MJ has laid out some criteria regarding format and location of material to be linked, and you're responding with an argument concerning content and business philosophy.
Also, I really don't want to sound like I'm against you in this argument - particularly since I'm not entirely clear what the sides are or what the argument is about, precisely - but the bit about AE seems like it goes too far. The way I read it (and considering that I know you're a reasonable person, I'm probably mis-reading it), you're suggesting that you suspect that MJ may be "immune to reason" on one or more of the points of discussion you're bringing up. Since I have yet to see any discussion at all of those points on this forum, that suspicion seems premature.
I'm not sure what I'm trying to say. I have to be missing something that would make this exchange make sense.
My reasons for not copying materials to the web site have a lot to do with the line between recommending a product and endorsing a producer. It also has a fair amount to do with the fact that I have a tremendous workload, and cleaning up and coding and posting hundreds of articles by many people is more than I can commit to doing. As it is, I am behind on web work both professionally and personally. It is much easier simply to link to an existing document.
It also looks better for the company and for the writer.
Linking to someone's work elsewhere, and having them link back to us, creates more of an appearance of the popularity of the game; putting these articles on our site creates more of the appearance that we had our friends write stuff for us to post. You do wonderful work, Eric, and I appreciate it; but you aren't part of the company, and it is better for you and for us to maintain your independence. As you once said to me, I am supposed to think that Multiverser is the best game out there. So is everyone who works in this company. That automatically discredits us, to the point that we're not allowed to write reviews of our materials, even if those materials are not written by us individually. You, on the other hand, are a fan, someone who sees the merit in the game without being part of the company. I was a fan before I became an author; John was a fan as a playtester before becoming a stockholder and director and officer. We're all fans of our own game, but because it is in some sense "our own game", we're discredited. You have more credibility if your stuff is not on our website: it's not your game, but you like it and support it.
I also don't have to pass as strict a judgment on anything. Most of what is on our support site itself comes directly from one of our books; the exceptions are formal answers to questions we've been asked and materials from future books. We could have included the extensive martial arts materials, but they are not official--they are on my personal web site for that reason. I can set links to things that are "good" and "useful" without giving them the status of official Valdron publications. Note that this includes much of my own work, which is not official Multiverser material but is linked as useful.
As to the natures of the articles, yes, I have a prejudice against lists, and a greater prejudice against "dX" lists. The creation of a world, to my mind, should not be a randomized approach in that way. All of those factors either matter or do not matter. If they matter, then the world designer should intelligently choose those items that fit his vision of the world, and not let the dice give him flintlock pistols and supercomputers. If they don't matter, Multiverser already has a "randomized" mechanic for determining such details: general effects rolls tell the referee if this is what the player wants and expects, or if it goes against him.
Besides, a list of possible governments or economic systems might be useful to someone trying to design a world, but only if it gives some insight into how to use the list and what the items on it mean. Mention that the government is an oligarchy and I have a word I can slap onto a system; discuss how oligarchies work and how one can be different from another, and I have advice on how to design a world.
I am not against linking to well-organized articles that are primarily lists and instructions for how to use them; I am against linking to cluttered forum threads that are a list and discussion of how to improve it. You've got a list of guns, and a list of bullets; not all guns can use all bullets. Put it together in a discussion of how to choose firearms and equipment for a world or for any particular unit within the world (e.g., in Why Spy it's typical for the official military support units to have M-16s and the terrorist and rebel groups to have AKs, because the former are better and the latter cheaper and easier to maintain), maybe thoughts on peripheral equipment that might be used (automatic pistols often can have silencers, some guns can use scopes), and put the lists together in an article. A list of guns is only useful to someone who already knows what those guns are, and in that case he can probably make his own list. A list of guns with information about how to incorporate them into world design and decide what goes with them would be a valuable reference.
I'm not looking for an essay on vampirism. An article on vampires with several different types listed and described is fine.
The other problem with these short posts of lists is that it's easy to see how there could be hundreds of them in very little time at all. You yourself have mentioned dozens, maybe scores, of lists you think would be useful. That's hundreds of links on the support site, which makes it unweildy. Somewhere on this long list of lists there's a list of guns; somewhere a list of swords; somewhere a list of bullets; somewhere a list of holidays; somewhere a list of governments; somewhere a list of cults; somewhere a list of religions; somewhere a list of economies; somewhere a list of vehicles; somewhere a list of--wading through lists of lists, this is not a useful way for a support site to be structured. I want people who come to the support site to be able to find what they're seeking, not to be able to spend months wandering around the Internet trying to figure out why a particular forum thread was relevant. They have Google for that.
So if you like the "list in a forum thread" format, well, that's all right. Give me an article somewhere that links all those lists and explains how to use them, and I'll link to the article. I don't have the time to create that article on our site, and that's not the format we're using there. The objective there is to list the best and most useful resources out there, with brief summaries, and let the creators of those resources in turn point people who come to those resources to other resources.
I really don't want to stifle your efforts. I want to minimize the amount of work I have to do and the amount of clutter it creates on our site, while maximizing the usefulness of our materials and yours.
Thanks.
--M. J. Young
Post them as Gaming Outpost articles if you've nowhere else to put them.
I can agree with the format and location stuff mostly, although I don't see why a full list of gun info requires a couple thousand words on the nature of guns as well.
Perhaps so, Wodium.
But its not just MJ, its also Valdron. I trust MJ more than I trust Valdron. See, for one, I don't know Valdron. They hide. I know they work in NJ, and have occasional meetings. And I know that I occasionally make good suggestions, and nothing happens. I think from reading between the lines, and MJ's hard to do that too, but sometimes I can guess a little bit about what's going on.
And part of it is, yes past history. I've had to scream at them a bit to get a decision made. A decision I could have made in a few hours took them months and months and months. By the time they made the decision, I'd pretty much lost interest. I'm not going to do that again.
So, I don't see that asking for proof of reasonableness, of being willing to change, of flexibility is such a bad thing. If they can ask me to improve my work, I can ask them to improve theirs.
Now if I was getting paid, I would likely be a lot more productive and respectful 'whatever you say, boss', but hey ya' gets what ya' pays for.
Eric,
I'm sorry for not getting back to you as soon as you would have liked. But to be honest, I keep to my own time schedule, not yours. As I stated before, Valdron never has, nor will it ever, hide. Your accusations, in my opinion, are groundless and therefore without merit. While some of your work is impressive, it doesn't make you the end-all authority you see yourself to be. I agree with your friend, you come across as a pompus !@#.
You see, we're not only dealing with a major re-write, but company issues as well. Your disatisfaction with the way we do things is duly noted. But in reviewing our stockholders list I failed to see your name. If you were a stockholder, or at the very least, less self-inflated and abrassive, the way you see things might bear more weight in the way things are done at Valdron.
And as to your views on the transparent generation, and my antiquated views on personal privacy: I think I'll stick with my opinion and simply agree to disagree with yours.
Your ignorance and arrogance come across clearly in the following statement: "I'm worried that I'm going to end up writing things that are better than what's on the website, but 'its not going to be good enough'."
You assume us as arrogant as yourself to think that we would not recognize or acknowledge superior writing. Or at least writing of quality. Not very polite.
You asked why there isn't more data in a few worlds. Dark Honor Empire and The Playground, I believe. A good reason, and I'm surprised someone of such immeasurable intellect (sarcasm, by the way) didn't grasp this simple concept, is that it leaves some creativity and flexibility up to the GM. That has always been an attraction to GMs in RPGs.
And for future reference, I would be a touch more careful with the postulation about yourself and Valdron. It makes you seem arrogant, ignorant and small.
Cheers.
J. David Walker
President
Valdron, Inc.
My reasons for not copying materials to the web site have a lot to do with the line between recommending a product and endorsing a producer.
====At your level, not a concern. This is like the guy in tenth place in a track meet getting all worried about his gold medal acceptance speech which he is not going to give. He will be lucky if he gets a bronze.
It also has a fair amount to do with the fact that I have a tremendous workload, and cleaning up and coding and posting hundreds of articles by many people is more than I can commit to doing.
====A more serious issue. However, you should be so lucky as to have this problem. If you had this problem, you could hire someone to do it for you out of the money you'd be rolling in.
As it is, I am behind on web work both professionally and personally. It is much easier simply to link to an existing document.
====I'm willing, as I stated to make one 'Agglomerated Doc' per major topic. Vampires, Guns, Ecosystems, Major Social Structures, World Designs (like 'Music Wars'). I also would strongly like to see other designers who make smaller items to be treated more kindly than you're treating me. It is necessary to encourage someone to become a full-fledged participant, and telling them they have to jump a ten foot fence when they can barely handle a two foot fence is a way to keep other people from helping you.
I would like your assurance that you are interested in, and willing to back up the process of seeing a group of designers for this project. Because making a too high entry fence for beginners is a swell way to keep them out.
It also looks better for the company and for the writer.
Linking to someone's work elsewhere, and having them link back to us, creates more of an appearance of the popularity of the game;
====Creating a ton of worlds, and world design tools, and characters, and items that can be dropped into any world would do Much, Much better at that.
putting these articles on our site creates more of the appearance that we had our friends write stuff for us to post.
====A more professional look than linking someone to a blog post would be better. I do not intend to create websites. However, if you want the slightly, sloppy look, then so be it.
You do wonderful work, Eric, and I appreciate it; but you aren't part of the company, and it is better for you and for us to maintain your independence.
====Your company needs something, I don't know what. Perhaps a dose of Tadeusz the Sledgehammer would be good for it.
As you once said to me, I am supposed to think that Multiverser is the best game out there. So is everyone who works in this company. That automatically discredits us, to the point that we're not allowed to write reviews of our materials, even if those materials are not written by us individually. You, on the other hand, are a fan,
===Not really a fan. When someone writes a game book on the Net, and writes a novel based on the game....that line in the sand that said 'fan' is long gone behind us.
someone who sees the merit in the game without being part of the company. I was a fan before I became an author; John was a fan as a playtester before becoming a stockholder and director and officer. We're all fans of our own game, but because it is in some sense "our own game", we're discredited. You have more credibility if your stuff is not on our website: it's not your game, but you like it and support it.
====I think you overstimate the value of the "Eric R. Ashley" brand name. Sure, I'm a brilliant GM, and much of my world designs are better than some of the ones published, but when people meet me and I ask them to game they frequently don't seem overwhelmed with joy. Its only after they sit down to game, and then get up many hours later with dazzled smiles of joy that they realize how lucky they were. Evidently, I don't cut that great of an impression.
I'm good at 'Get out of the large, irritated man's way', but not so good at 'follow me'. However, once fate puts me in charge, I am pretty good, or great as a GM.
I also don't have to pass as strict a judgment on anything. Most of what is on our support site itself comes directly from one of our books; the exceptions are formal answers to questions we've been asked and materials from future books. We could have included the extensive martial arts materials, but they are not official--they are on my personal web site for that reason.
====Your decision on the MA stuff is a mistake. Go look at the D20 website for suggestions on what you want.
I can set links to things that are "good" and "useful" without giving them the status of official Valdron publications.
====This is what the 'Optional' opening remarks that you made me include was about. Now the bar is raised again.
Note that this includes much of my own work, which is not official Multiverser material but is linked as useful.
As to the natures of the articles, yes, I have a prejudice against lists, and a greater prejudice against "dX" lists. The creation of a world, to my mind, should not be a randomized approach in that way.
====1) Thats your view as gamemaster. A valid view, mind you. But you're a producer for a game system, not a game master. Repeat after me "There is no One True Way to Roleplay".
I had one guy run an AD&D game where he rolled the dice, opened the Monster Manual to the page indicated, and said we met that monster in that room.
Are you going to tell him that he can't play your game?
Yes, its a horribly silly way to play, and he even knew it. But he lacked the creativity to improv on the spot, and he didn't have a game. I think I may have been too tired, and/or I might have been running into the 'Not Impressive Sounding as a GM/Leader thing' I have.
All of those factors either matter or do not matter. If they matter, then the world designer should intelligently choose those items that fit his vision of the world, and not let the dice give him flintlock pistols and supercomputers.
====Flintlocks and supercomputers sounds like an interesting world. Have you seen the latest Flash Gordon series. It has similar incongruities which are well explained.
Frequently such incongruities lead the way to more interesting worlds.
However, my view of lists is primarily as Wodium said a few weeks back. They serve to remind the GM. Sure I know what an oligarchy is, but I'm not likely to think of it when I'm world designing. Roll it on a list, and interesting possibilities can pop up in one's head.
Your insistence on full details of a situation such as a full scale description of 'oligarchy' is not the usual way game designers do things. At most, they might give a paragraph.
Another advantage to a list of guns is the ease of use. Your system is math heavy which I assume is necessary. (I'm not enough of a game designer to say otherwise). But even in less heavy systems, list of guns are an easeful thing.
The question to ask is this: "Would making a simple job dead easy and simpler be a bad or a good thing?" So even if your system is as easy as you think it is, still lists of guns are a good thing.
Note: AD&D managed to sell something like TEN Books of Magic by alphabetical order, and Marvel Comics sold something like that amount of extra-large comics which were just the pics, and backgrounds of most of its characters (I should know because I bought a number of them). Champions sold tons of books which were character stats and backgrounds and personality notes along with a good quote.
Nowadays they tend to mix it up with a bit of Characters, and Background, and Campaign for Champions. Now, yes, D20 is less likely to sell only characters, but then they sell Monster Manuals which is pretty much the same thing.
Palladium put out a very cool book which was at least half tiny sketches of weapons, and stats. The other half was about siege tactics, and the different types of armor that people in different eras and places wore. Its a wonderful resource. If you have the chance, you should get it.
Since you're Multiverser--You should be doing ALL of the above. You can't. I know. Time. Money. Energy. But when someone comes along and offers to do one of those things, the response of 'yeah, baby' seems normal.
If they don't matter, Multiverser already has a "randomized" mechanic for determining such details: general effects rolls tell the referee if this is what the player wants and expects, or if it goes against him.
====GE is a very clever idea, and an excellent mechanic, and not at all suited to this task. Think about it. You're getting way too enthused here. I can honestly tell you that Starsong is good, and that it reaches a whole new market that you're not familar with, and a lot of other nice things. But if I tell you its the greatest thing since Forgotten Realms, you need to usher me back to Earth.
Besides, a list of possible governments or economic systems might be useful to someone trying to design a world, but only if it gives some insight into how to use the list and what the items on it mean. Mention that the government is an oligarchy and I have a word I can slap onto a system; discuss how oligarchies work and how one can be different from another, and I have advice on how to design a world.
===="Men seldom need to be told something; they frequently need reminding." Jerry Pournelle likes to quote this. I think it may be Samuel Johnson. Its a good point.
Let us start with a list, and some notes. Let us build the first floor. It will be a bit rickety. Some parts will not be as brilliant as other parts. But it will improve. Ba'ke'gn is better than NagaWorld. And you should publish NagaWorld even if it came out now instead of then. Sure, there is better stuff (Symbiont Academy, Doom of the Mech Empire, Starsong, Lilith's World....but its good enough.) So thats two points there: 1)Let it get better with practise. 2)Recognize that more content that is good enough is a benefit.
I am not against linking to well-organized articles that are primarily lists and instructions for how to use them; I am against linking to cluttered forum threads that are a list and discussion of how to improve it.
====I am against linking to cluttered forum posts as well.
You've got a list of guns, and a list of bullets; not all guns can use all bullets.
====I've got a list of Bullet Modifiers. Any bullet can be a 'Wildcat' round. When it comes to Transhumanism and 'Starsong' or Guns there are some topics I know a bit about. My knowledge of Law on the other hand is fairly slim. I'm not Shawn or JohnA1Nut, but I did have a brother who owned a whole slew of guns including Dessert Eagle .50 calibre, a Thompson Center Contender, and a whole lot of other guns. And I used to carry a Star Firestar .45 loaded with Black Talon hollowpoints (I think it was hollowpoints and not jacketed hollowpoint or jhp.) I carried it in the full knowledge that it was likely that I'd be tried for murder if I used it successfully because the Establishment did not like Black Talons. They had a ferocious reputation as man-killers. But, better to be tried by twelve than carried by six.
Put it together in a discussion of how to choose firearms and equipment for a world or for any particular unit within the world (e.g., in Why Spy it's typical for the official military support units to have M-16s and the terrorist and rebel groups to have AKs, because the former are better and the latter cheaper and easier to maintain)
====That comment about M-16's being better might cause some dispute in certain quarters. M-16's were designed to wound the enemy on the theory that a wounded man means two to carry him. Me, I'm a proponent of 'nuke the ground until the bedrock glows' so this 'too clever by half' strategy doesn't make me happy.
But part of the problem is that this List of Guns is so that someone (like me) can quickly come up with say...a list of situations for Mary Piper in the Caribbean where Emerald is the name for the best brand of Cocaine, and then just plug in the weapons needed with no fuss, no muss. You know that was funny, just go ahead and laugh.
Sure adding detail is useful, but again, its like my English teacher told me....you gotta have something on the paper before you can revise it.
And most people don't need analysis. Most GM's would be happy with a quick list of weapons so when their player who is fighting off the Mafia's invasion of Mexico wants to walk into a gunshop, and buy a weapon they have a ready list they can use to remind them of the names of the weapons,a nd so they can gauge the relative power and what effect it will have on the game, and so they don't have to stop the game to flip open the Big Black Book and write up the stats. This world might have totally different reasons for its guns than ours. It might even Not Really Have Reasons (which is probably the most common reason for a MV world created by a typical gm.) other than the GM thought they sounded cool.
That ordinary GM would like your help. Other games help him. Anything that makes his life easier is a good thing.
, maybe thoughts on peripheral equipment that might be used (automatic pistols often can have silencers, some guns can use scopes), and put the lists together in an article. A list of guns is only useful to someone who already knows what those guns are, and in that case he can probably make his own list.
====Peripheral equipment is a good idea. Thanks. Now back to ragging on you. "Only Useful"....bzzzzzz. 'He can make his own list'....spoken like an elitist. "I don't see why Wal-mart has to sell tents for cold weather. Why anyone who can survive a snowed in campsite would know how to create their own tent from a tarp, two ropes, and a piece of wadded up bubblegum.' 1)Its not as easy as you think it is. 2) Easier is better. Write a Post-It note, and put it on your monitor with those words. Or better yet, don't. After all, my sketch worlds don't have rules mechanics. I think the GM can manage without them (and they probably can).
The thing is...embrace the diversity. You need to see that not everyone does it your way...in fact, most people probably cannot do it your way. Most GM's are IQ 120, and only moderately creative, and have a small bit of improvisation. Thats okay, most of them probably make more money than me, and they are probably better off as they are than as someone freakish like me.
Yeah, some GM's can handle the load of a sketch world or making up in ten minutes a list of fifteen guns (of course, a sketch world kind of implies the GM doing the work beforehand). But even most of them would probably be grateful for the help. And those that aren't because they are so talented and individual....well here's hoping that they are soon sending you links to world designs to post on your site.
A list of guns with information about how to incorporate them into world design and decide what goes with them would be a valuable reference.
I'm not looking for an essay on vampirism. An article on vampires with several different types listed and described is fine.
====I'm presenting about ten different vampire characters. I'll include a small description of what makes each type different from the other type. By now, you know my opinion that your game needs this.
The other problem with these short posts of lists is that it's easy to see how there could be hundreds of them in very little time at all.
====Again, aglomerated. Two, yeah, you're lucky. You're welcome. A set of ten or twenty links to aglomerated docs is not a bug, its a feature. If you can't see that, then we do have a problem. You'll think I'm trying to sell ice to an Eskimo, and I'll think I'm trying to give water to a man dying of thirst.
This idea is a serious problem. You are a man in a dessert. You do NEED water. If you can't accept that, then I probably need to stop, and go back to being a drone.
You yourself have mentioned dozens, maybe scores, of lists you think would be useful. That's hundreds of links on the support site, which makes it unweildy.
====Let's let the list get to twenty links before getting worried. One, I may get bored which happens. You've seen me wander from topic to topic before. Two, I may finally get up the gumption to publish more (after all, I'm finally kinda sorta tackling the rules system). Three, I expect that some aglomeration of aglomeration might take place.
You might end up with a link "Weapons", and a link "Social Structures", and a link "Details of Ordinary Life", and a link "Magic"....with each link leading to ten more links, and each of those being an agglomerated document.
You should be so lucky.
Somewhere on this long list of lists there's a list of guns; somewhere a list of swords; somewhere a list of bullets; somewhere a list of holidays; somewhere a list of governments; somewhere a list of cults; somewhere a list of religions; somewhere a list of economies; somewhere a list of vehicles; somewhere a list of--wading through lists of lists, this is not a useful way for a support site to be structured.
====I've dealt with most of this concern several times. And I just dealt with the rest.
I want people who come to the support site to be able to find what they're seeking, not to be able to spend months wandering around the Internet trying to figure out why a particular forum thread was relevant. They have Google for that.
====But remember, there first has to be something there for them to find. And you really want to have something easier than Google. A simple tree network of links would be of use once and IF the documents got big enough to need it. Right now, you're borrowing trouble from next year.
So if you like the "list in a forum thread" format, well, that's all right. Give me an article somewhere that links all those lists and explains how to use them, and I'll link to the article. I don't have the time to create that article on our site, and that's not the format we're using there. The objective there is to list the best and most useful resources out there, with brief summaries, and let the creators of those resources in turn point people who come to those resources to other resources.
I really don't want to stifle your efforts. I want to minimize the amount of work I have to do and the amount of clutter it creates on our site, while maximizing the usefulness of our materials and yours.
Thanks.
====I hope I've clarified things. I personally want to see Multiverser become great and mighty. And the way Windows beat out Apple was to make it easy to be a software developer for Windows. Apple tried to hang onto the power, and nearly went bankrupt.
D20 conquered the world by giving it away.
Its a New World, and the old methodologies of hiding, and controlling don't work that well.
Legos will allow you to order your own set of blocks. And they will post on the site block set designs.
Maybe some day a voting mechanism of Diggs could be used on your site. And the propspective GM could look at the reviews and votes, and decide to order a POD book with a his own mix of worlds chosen from a list of several hundred, and a list of articles of nearly a thousand which got awards for being "The Web's Largest Resource for World Design".
The GM would perhaps choose...
1. Lilith's World
2. Doom of the Mech Empire with Contingent
3. Playground
4. Dancing Princesses with the Seven Addtional Variants
5. First Contact/First Murder
6. Orc Rising
7. Only the Insects Survive
8. Fantastika and Gothika
9. NagaWorld
Or he could choose another list. And he adds a list of weapons, and a list of clothing information. A bit of advertisement is added free of charge, and his book will be at his house in two days since he paid priority shipping.
He checks out the Wiki where new articles and worlds are frequently born. He goes by the website to see the live games. He goes back on the easy links to the Free and Easy Links which lead him to a menu:
1. Character of the Day which is an always new character.
2. Sketch World of the Day
3. Problems and Answers by MJ
4. GUI
5. Books by any author (a link that leads to a page where any author that wrote a world can also link any novel they are selling)
6. New Magic Spell or Item
7. Cool Quote of the Day: Forex: "Nothing really has hurt me that much in the verse, well, except for the nuclear weapon."
He checks back frequently, and logs on to the chat forum where ideas are discussed. There are new things frequently too lure him to come back.
He reads the blog which is very personal, and then reads the other blogs which are likewise,a nd starts to feel like he is involved.
Pretty soon, he is sending out a new world for others to look at. Per the rules of the Newbie World Design Forum, his rather lame ideas are treated very gently. He gets some useful advice, and runs it. His buddies think it was great. He's enthused.
Fifteen years later, he's a director in your company.
Life's good, but Power...just might be an illusion.
--M. J. Young
Eric,
I'm sorry for not getting back to you as soon as you would have liked. But to be honest, I keep to my own time schedule, not yours.
====Its been what, a week? I honestly thought you'd decided to never reply.
As I stated before, Valdron never has, nor will it ever, hide. Your accusations, in my opinion, are groundless and therefore without merit.
====It does not look that way.
While some of your work is impressive, it doesn't make you the end-all authority you see yourself to be.
====I certainly do not see myself that way. Note: My vote for the best of the Multiverser worlds was not one of my own. I voted for Lilith's World. However, on certain topics I know more than....pretty much anyone I've ever met. On other topics, I'm knowledgeable enough to converse, and quite willing to accept new information and contradiction.
When Shawn told me my theory about knockdown differential between .45 and Nines was wrong, I asked for proof, and he provided. I reluctantly agreed with him (its such a good story even if its not true), and noted that he knew more about guns than me. On the other hand, if MJ and I disagree about guns, you'd be wise to listen to me. But if Shawn and I disagree, you should listen to Shawn.
However, you should listen to people that know more than you. In fact, you should even listen to those who don't, and try to learn something. An insular attitude is doom.
I agree with your friend, you come across as a pompus !@#.
====Oh well. I try to be honest, brave, and kind. Being humble is rather far down the list.
You see, we're not only dealing with a major re-write, but company issues as well. Your disatisfaction with the way we do things is duly noted. But in reviewing our stockholders list I failed to see your name. If you were a stockholder, or at the very least, less self-inflated and abrassive, the way you see things might bear more weight in the way things are done at Valdron.
====If you were interested in succeeding the opinions of major stakeholders would be of great concern. Again, insularity, and hiding. One other thing, I'm good at. Its not something I'm terribly proud of, but getting into an arguement with me is generally a losing business. MJ wins so often because 1)Genuine respect on my part. 2) He's smarter than me in general, and more of an expert in a lot of things (although I do surpass him on some things, but not on general IQ.)
And as to your views on the transparent generation, and my antiquated views on personal privacy: I think I'll stick with my opinion and simply agree to disagree with yours.
====Go out, pick up any book on business in the modern age. Chances are they will agree with me. Sigh. I can't even claim the virtue of originality.
Your ignorance and arrogance come across clearly in the following statement: "I'm worried that I'm going to end up writing things that are better than what's on the website, but 'its not going to be good enough'."
You assume us as arrogant as yourself to think that we would not recognize or acknowledge superior writing. Or at least writing of quality. Not very polite.
====No, it isn't very polite. 1)You're the person who wanted to join my Worldwalker game, but wouldn't when I said 'no swearing'. Thats a double mark on rudeness. So lecturing me about being polite is an interesting new experience. 2)A lot of people would prefer the second-rate if they control it, rather than the first-rate. Reread my story about AE. Consider again how insularity and hiding make your customers and providers suspicious of your motives.
You asked why there isn't more data in a few worlds. Dark Honor Empire and The Playground, I believe. A good reason, and I'm surprised someone of such immeasurable intellect (sarcasm, by the way)
====My IQ is 129. Yes, I'm smart, but there are a ton of people smarter than me. What I am is a person with an extremely good grasp on how to gamemaster, probably 3@something. I'm also according to MJ a guy with a 2@10 skill in knowledge SF (and since then I've gotten better). I've also studied a lot of sociology, and futurism. And I've written a few novels, and some game adventure modules. All that....will get you a meal for the family in a Mexican restauraunt. Maybe one day, I will get my name on the NYTimes bestseller list, and actually make some decent cash. Lastly, I'm a fountain of ideas, a freak of nature--MJ one time pointed out to me that I was the fastest person for creating worlds he knew or something like that anyways, and this was on a site dedicated to that. I've been called a 'genius', and had some strong compliments tossed my way, but my favorite is the dazzled grin of my players rising from the table for the first time.
What I am is honest, and ruthless, and energetic.
I tell you true, I ran Champions for five years with happy players, and I still had to ask them how to use the Block rules in combat. And its not all that complicated, you'd have probably picked it up in ten minutes at the most.
I tell you, I can be scorching even when I'm not really trying to. I've learned to hold back. I tend to be focused on doing whats right, and those who are wicked, well, the wicked get punished, or shoved out of the way. And that ruthlessness extends to myself. Look those hard questions in the face(at least the ones you or I can stand), and realize you're not the man you want to be.
I'm obviously energetic. MJ asked me to write the Fourth Book of Worlds. Five months later, I had turned in the 125,000 word first draft of it. And I'll be honest or arrogant--most of the worlds were better than many in the First Book. Of course, to be further honest and ruthless with myself, such is how it should be. I had the First Book to show the way. Every book ought to be better than the one before should be the goal. Later, while ya'll were still working on the Third Book (which you'd started before I started the Fourth), I went on and wrote Worldbook SF and Worldbook Fantasy with 35k words each. In other words, while ya'll have been working on the Third, I've written the 4th and the 5th. You should understand a touch of impatience.
One thing that may help you. MJ and Graeme decided that I was 'scary like Hermione Granger'. It fits, I think. Smart, driven, more productive than any two people, focused, a touch socially maladroit....and more than a bit scary.
didn't grasp this simple concept, is that it leaves some creativity and flexibility up to the GM. That has always been an attraction to GMs in RPGs.
====I understand that you want to defend the work. Its good stuff. But it should be better. There is flexibility, and there is paucity. I also understand if you want to just send it---that's okay. Very few people are JRR Tolkien who is prepared to touch and retouch his work for a very long time to get it just right. And you know what...that's a good thing. The world would (well maybe if everyone was after such work, but then again probably not) not work if perfection of product was the rule. Starsong is quite good, but it would be better with 35,000 more words to add to the original 35k. But I didn't think MJ wanted a gather world of 70k words.
I think you are pulling an AE here.
And for future reference, I would be a touch more careful with the postulation about yourself and Valdron. It makes you seem arrogant, ignorant and small.
====For arrogant, read honest, for ignorant well, I know more than many and less than many. I'm pretty sure I know more than you about world design. I'm totally sure you know more than me about a lot of other things.
Accept this: J is my uber-brilliant friend. He's positively scary at full tilt. But, he's dyslexic and so he hardly reads books other than his textbooks, so his political opinion has sounded like it was quoted from the evening news which is pretty dumb.
Small? I'm honest and open. It seems that makes me the larger man.
I've said it before, I'll say it again. You do not want to get into a swordfight with me. However, I'm focused to an unnatural degree, and quite willing to put this disagreement aside. I bear you no, or very little ill will (maturity comes hard for me). I will be glad to help out. I'd like your company to succeed. Feel free at any time to ask my help on a project, and I will attempt to give you a quick answer as to whether I can help. Most likely I will be able to do so.
Eric,
You seem to like to throw about your intellect. I tested at 158. But I also realize that sometimes my personality quirks and offhanded nature tend to interfere with it. That and the fact that sometimes I can be distracted. My pincahe' for the absurd doesn't always help either.
If you think we're hiding, you lack the ability to see past your own opinion.
Your gaming experience falls short of impressing me. Most people's do. I have thirty years of RPG experience both as a player and a gamemaster. I still find in myself to respect other people's experience levels, now matter how great or small.
I declined the Worldwalker game because it was too much like freeform. It had little, if any structure. I ran along the lines of "Multiverser Lite". It had little appeal to me. Refraining from swearing was not an issue with me, although I may have felt that a little restrictive. But that's just my thinking. A character may curse. That isn't rude. It's when one directs swearing at an actual person that it becomes rude. When I read a Stephen King novel, I don't get offended when the character swears. That's just part of the story. If I were to be offended by swearing, I wouldn't read the book period. But I am Victorian by no means.
We've been in business ten plus years. Although they've been rocky, we've managed to stay afloat. Since I've resumed the presidency of the company, I've managed to get the company more focused than it's ever been. In fact, MJ just had one of the best cons on company record. Although we still have a road ahead of us, we continue to make progress. I expect this to continue through our ongoing efforts. We're doing fine, so no books on modern business are required at this point. However, should I change my mind, I'll keep that advice in mind.
MJ is doing his best to keep people informed of product development (as he is the Director of R&D) as best he can. But he does have a full plate as he has other resposibilities outside the company. So if we don't run every single idea we have for production by the general public, please be a little more tolerant.
We can always agree to disagree. I have no ill will towards you either. As I stated before, I really dig alot of your world concepts. I have scads myself. But alot of time it boils down to finding the time to actually sit down and crank them out. God, I wish I could, but my brain works faster than my sub par typing speed.
I also recently lost the data I had on the Titanic scenario I was working on. And now, magically the backup disc is also MIA. So please forgive me if seem a tad terse and preoccupied as of late. That was a buttload of research data and composition to have to rewrite. What stinks is that right now I'm in the process of writing a new world based on the Jersey Devil legend. So, I have to put that on the back burner because I really want to see Titanic reach fruition before beginning any other projects. Kind of frustrating, but it is what it is. MJ is the one to talk to about helping on development projects. I trust his judgement on most matters implicitly, and I see no reason to question it on this matter. And I mean this sincerely, I appreciate your offer to lend a hand. So on behalf of myself and the company,thank you.
I think I disagree with your first three paragraph theses, but thats not an issue. We can agree to disagree. I'm not surprised that you were rated higher than moi.
How about this? I'll try to be more tolerant and less paranoid, and you all try to be more open, and give me less fertilizer for my paranoia?
I sympathize with you on your frustration/pain on the loss of an artistic project. Its a unique ache in the soul.
As to MJ's development, well, I'm 'playtesting' Orc Rising right now. Just invented a spell for chasing ground insects away, and another spell for singing a fish up to the boat. I haven't detailed them, but I suppose I could if he's still looking for spells for OR. I know he was a few months ago.
Best of fortune,
Eric
"Your monkey is very impressive. However, circus policy requires that all performers wear a coat and top hat at all times. Procure a coat and hat for your monkey, and we would be delighted to add him to the team."
I suppose you could at this point go home with your monkey. Perhaps the additional requirement in the face of the incredible things your monkey can do is insulting; perhaps your monkey looks just fine in denim and a baseball cap, or perhaps you just don't want to waste your time shopping for clothes when you could be putting that time to a more productive use by training more monkeys. We really hope you won't do that to us, though - the fact remains that your monkey is pretty awesome, and we wouldn't have asked for the coat and hat if we didn't want him on the team. This is not "your monkey is inadequate, bring him back when he is better," this is "your monkey is pretty nifty, please please please dress him up so we can add him to the show."
(I like monkeys, can you tell?)
Neil Stephenson identified two kinds of engineers in Diamond Age: innovators and tinkerers. You're an innovator. You want to create and create and create, until you've got a whole warehouse full of stupendous doohickeys that will do everything from vacuuming your floors (except for the corners) to cooking your breakfast (if you don't mind the noise) to finding that slipper that's been at large under the chaise lounge for several weeks (but it puts out an odd sort of green mist while it's doing it). What you need is a tinkerer - someone who wants to perfect and perfect and perfect, until that breakfast maker runs as silent as a ninja at a funeral and brews a cup of coffee that would make Don Corleone swoon (but it's the only gizmo he's got and he still can't find that slipper) - a tinkerer to go in behind you and write that disclaimer, or fiddle with the sit-mods or die adjustments, or drum up the connecting paragraphs between the lists and tables, or tack on that introduction, or whatever it is that needs to be done to the material after you're done (and busy creating the next ten things) but before it's done (and linked from the Support page).
For example, if you were to finish doing your vampire sketches - and doing them just as you have been, a forum thread per type with feedback from the forum at large and a loosely statted example character per concept - I would be happy to take on the task of combining those disparate yet voluminous posts into a single (coherent, unified, organized) article that met MJ's guidelines for linkage from the support site. With that sort of set up, you don't need to reconcile your opinions about what's suitable with Valdron's; you just need to innovate, and let your tinkerer(s) worry about Valdron.
___
I expect that some aglomeration of aglomeration might take place.
That could be an article - Eric R. Ashely's Lengthy List of Lists. Anyone who just wanted pre-made lists of things sans definitions and contexts (as reminders, like you say) could visit the article and follow the links to links to lists to his heart's content. Anyone who didn't would only have to skip one link on the support site to avoid them all.
I'll definitely take you up on that. Verra amusing too, monkeys and Don Corleone in one post. Thank you, Wodium.
And Night.
Eric
I must apologize; I'm not certain whether it's because I'm too tired or because I'm too frazzled, but I have very little idea what anyone is saying in this thread--even me.
I kept a lot of things quiet in the early years; John was not around for part of that time, so he wasn't consulted.
For one thing, we had a problem with the license. E. R. Jones was, frankly, paranoid. He perceived that credit and control of Dungeons & Dragons had been "legally stolen" from its creators not once but at least twice (this prior to WotC's takeover), and he did not wish that to happen to him. He could foresee someone taking over the company and "giving away Multiverser free with the purchase of X", thus depriving him of any royalty because he wasn't covered for free copies. Thus the original license that permitted Valdron to publish had a lot of restrictions, to the point that if someone in the company were to have said to someone outside the company, "Sure, you can give away those worlds you designed for Multiverser," that might be sufficient basis for Mr. Jones to sue the company for a per copy royalty on everything someone else gave away. I was thus very very careful about telling people they could make stuff for Multiverser, because Mr. Jones was not talking to us (or to anyone else, actually), and was a bit of a wild card in the situation.
We have since revised the license, as the original term expired; it now allows us to authorize others to produce and distribute Multiverser products on whatever basis the company thinks fair and reasonable, with a royalty based on what the company earns from it.
I, at least, am still gun shy. Call it ten years on the front lines.
We've also had outsiders approach us wanting to write for us, and hoping we will pay them. I've tried to keep information about our financial situation confidential, but we really have not been in a position where we can pay people the going rate for writing role playing products. We stayed in business through a lot of this because the original writers and artists were all committed to the company, stockholders, and willing to let royalties accrue on account until such time as there was sufficient profit to warrant paying them. That has not yet happened, although part of that is certainly because income has been reinvested in product, and part of it is because we have always sold an expensive product on a slim margin.
At present we're trying to find ways to facilitate fan support of the product without creating more trouble for ourselves.
I think most of my concerns have been addressed. I look forward to seeing the articles that draw together some of the work in progress here, and getting them linked from the Valdron support site. I'm sorry for the tensions that seem to have developed over this; it was not my intent or expectation that this would be such a hot issue.
--M. J. Young
I am a bit gun-shy myself. Been here for half of those ten years, and been the recipient of a fair amount of paranoia to use your description.
I would definitely have been open to some sort of accrued payment. Its what I'm doing with the Mountain Home guy...get paid .03 a word when and if he makes the profit to do it. But I'm thinking your side rejected that.
Re-read my reply to you in about a week when your brain is not frazzled or exhausted. I think there is much to profit from.