We represent a diverse religious background on this board. MJ and I represent Christianity, Scott is a Discordian, I'm guessing Osevens is some kind of pagan or Wiccan. I was just wondering if anyone would like to discuss their religious beliefs, how and why they believe it, and what they believe. I'm not trying to mock anyone's religion, or talk them out of it. Personally, I don't do that unless the person is Atheist. If the religion makes sense to you, do it. Atheism though makes no sense at all.
Well, I guess I'll start. I was raised Christian by my mother. I believe it because it's what I was taught, and also the experiences I mention on the thread Prayer Bonuses. I believe that Jesus Christ is coming back for us one day, to take the faithful to Heaven, in an event called The Rapture. When The Rapture hits, all of the saved in Christ will disappear from the earth to join Jesus in Heaven. The rest of humanity that is left behind will be here to suffer through a 7 year tribulation. After that, Jesus will again return to rule over earth for 1,000 years, before taking the saved back to Heaven for eternity. See the Left Behind book series for a complete description of what I believe will happen.
I was raised Catholic, and turned my back on it in disgust after going K-8 in Catholic school. I spent my teen years exploring different philosophies - Buddhism, Zen, Shinto, Satanism (Anton LaVey's style), and various forms of Paganism. When I was 17 I moved to the South and sort of rediscovered Christianity - I worked for the United Methodist Church for a year and change. I even taught Sunday School for about six months.
When I moved back to the North, I couldn't find a good Christian community, so I started studying it on my own, applying the same sort of faith+intellegence approach that I had been doing all along with all the other systems I'd studied. I started seeing all the holes in Christianity. At the time it really hurt - I liked being a Methodist - but I couldn't deny what I saw with my own eyes (after all, is not our ability to reason divinely given?):
How much the New Testament completely discounts the Old.
How much the letters of Saul of Tarsus (who I now believe was a spy/infiltrator) completely discount everything Jesus himself had to say. (The man spent the entirety of his young life persecuting Christians, had an epiphany in the middle of nowhere, witnessed by no one, and then began teaching the religion he despised. Think about it - if Dubya wandered off into the Texas wastelands, showed up in San Antonio and started preaching Islam, they would not base the next 2000 years of practice on what he said - they would lock him up as a madman.)
How much modern Christian practice is lifted wholesale from the Pagan cultures they assimilated during the early expansions (/you/ try telling me what bunnies and eggs have to do with Jesus, for instance*).
Discrepencies between the stories and history. The biggest one on this was the Wedding at Cana. Firstly, the idea that Jesus went his whole life unmarried is bizarre - you basically couldn't /be/ a bachelor rabbi in his day. Secondly, if he were just a guest, why would them running out of wine have been his problem? My conclusion: it was Jesus himself getting married that day.
Anyway, that sort of thought process was what drove me away from Christianity. I started studying Paganism after I had a few supernatural experiences that left me feeling very connected to nature and the Goddess. A friend of mine guided me through some early spell-work, and soon I was able to philosophize and study on my own. I've since read about it - the traditions, the rituals, and so on - and I've developed my own practice and belief. I say that I'm primarily Asatru because the strong-but-emotional gods of the Norse appear the most relatable images to me, but I believe the gods are more primal than that, influenced primarily by a Hindi idea that all the gods are one god.
Also, I am drawn to Paganism because of the acknowledgement of the Goddess. I believe it is socially destructive - damning us to an eternity of misogyny so long as we say that the only god is one singluar /male/ deity. Denying the Goddess denies the feminine divine - it's no wonder such a society has no equality.
*Easter Eggs - I acknowledge A1Nut's rule of not trying to convert anyone, but I will point out a bit of history in the interest of broadening cultural tolerance. The "easter egg hunts" our kids participate in now are a remnent of a practice during the age of the Witch Hunts. Pagans would put out eggs in their gardens to celebrate Ostara, the spring fertility festival. Children (who would not be suspected of ill-doing) would crawl around in people's lawns looking for who had put them out, "hunting" them, and then tell their elders about it. Those people would then be persecuted, exiled, or killed, simply for excercising their beliefs. I read about that in one of my Pagan history books, and the idea of an easter egg hunt has horrified me ever since.
I find talking religion or politics on a board not meant for either only invokes problems. I've already seen some evidance, if you don't believe as I do you need to be saved, and that just rubs me the wrong way. This is a gaming board, and would like to keep the topics related to that.
Adam
Adam, check your Myspace messages.
I just figured with all the debate about prayer being magic, and the telling of religious stories as experiences with it, that people might want to share what they believe.
If you can't be nice and respect someone else, don't post. That goes for everyone.
Like I said in the original post. I'm not out to change anyone's beliefs.* If you can't respect that, then you're not welcome.
*Atheists don't have any beliefs to change, so I am out to change theirs. But only if they allow me to.
The man has a point, but I think we should give ourselves the benefit of the doubt a little bit.
A1Nut and I aren't trying to convert each other, we're not sniping or being like "u r teh dammed, lolz" or anything like that. If we can have a reasonable discussion, explain our own viewpoints and where we're at philosophically without degenerating into petty bitterness, why not?
We certainly seem to be a community of religious gamers, which I find to be... not as rare as you would think, actually. Weirdly enough most of the gamers I know are very spiritual people. I for one think it would be interesting to explore that, if we can do it in a mature way.
Edit: Ninja'd by the Nut.
Edit #2: There are those people who firmly believe in the nonexistence of the divine. I believe they have a right to their belief. I hope they've done some real examination of why they feel that way, but they do have a right to not agree with us.
*looks at the above post*
I was nice and respectful and I will leave it at that.
There is a saying in Islam "Trust in Allah, but tie up your camel." Basically, trust in God, but take precautions in your own life. My version of it is "Trust in God, but keep your door locked and your pistol at the ready." Along those lines of thinking, I try to always keep 2 weeks worth of canned food, candles, lighters, ammunition, toilet paper, and various other necessities handy. Mostly it is because I live on a fixed income, and I want to make sure I have something to eat if there are too many bills one month, but also in case I am left behind in The Rapture. After The Rapture, society will be in chaos for a good amount of time. Imagine the L.A. riots taking place all over the world. When/if that happens, I will hole up in my apartment and wait for things to calm down. Then I will come out and share the news of Jesus Christ with anyone who will listen. I don't want to be left behind in The Rapture, but this philosophy is very common among some Christians. They're preparing to be Saints of The Rapture. In Revelations, it talks about a multitude of people in white who were martyred for their faith. I believe these are the Rapture saints.
Osevens, I will admit, I used to think Wicca was just a step away from Satan worship, but I had my own epiphany some years ago. As long as you feel comfortable in your religion, that's fine with me. Atheists bother me though, because why would any thinking person want to believe that this planet is all there is? Atheists claim that logically, there cannot be a God. No, if you're going to be logical, you MUST assume that it's possible that there is a God. A good scientist always looks at both outcomes, even the one he doesn't agree with. To be logical, you must consider the possibility that you are wrong.
When I was very Christian, in my younger days, I used to think about Paganism and Satanism that way, too.
Then I read about both.
There are some ideas of Anton LaVey I still agree with (like the idea that being stupid on purpose ought to be physically painful - I can totally get with that) but for the most part, the philosophy is wrong. It's just Christianity done backwards, and... there's no point to that, it's just spiteful. So, meh. Other versions of Satanism are worse - halfway constructed, not real faiths, backwards Christianity mixed with Santeria and other legitimate Pagan faiths. It's mostly, like I said, just people trying to be spiteful to their oppressive pseudo-Christian upbringing.
I will admit, I don't like Wicca. Actual Gardnerian Wicca is to Paganism like the Catholic Church is to Christianity, and I don't like Wicca for the same reason Protestants don't like Catholics. It's somehow... snooty. Like they have the only real practice, and they make everything so mysterious, like faith is supposed to be doled out in pieces to those some other mortal authority decides are ready.
To me faith isn't mysterious - the gods have always been very forthcoming with me. I can do the magic they, being /gods/, decide to invest me with. I've experienced the whole "what you give you get back" rule, for good and for ill. (The one time I ever used my magic to curse someone, I lost the Gift for a year.) So it makes sense to me.
And yes, I agree that logic considers both sides. I still have respect for people who, having looked logically, choose to believe there is no divine. That's their belief. Even if they consider the possibility that they're wrong, they don't have to /believe/ they're wrong. Otherwise they wouldn't believe their own beliefs... and that's giving me a headache. :P
Osevens, if I may be so bold, how old are you? You struck me as a younger guy (Late teens early 20s) when you first started, but now you're striking me as someone much older. I will be 31 years old in March.
I used to look down on Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses a long time ago. The thing that got me was that we are all following the same God. We are all soldiers in the same army, we all follow the same God, why do we have our guns pointed at each other? That was the epiphany that I had. Who am I to tell you that you are wrong about what you believe? That's God's decision. I kind of go along with the "Kill them all, let God sort them out" philosophy. It's not my place to judge you for being wiccan, or Satanic, or whatever you choose to be. If you're wrong, God will take care of that. It's not my place to decide that. Atheists are a bit different, in my mind anyway, but I don't want to go into that right now.
A1Nut - I'm 24, so right in between.
And yeah, I savvy. The way I look at it is, it's more important that people be spiritual /at all/ than that they be a specific kind.
There's this bit in Hinduism that says basically so long as you pray at all, the god or gods who need to hear your prayer will hear it, even if you don't know which one to ask, even if you address it wrong, the gods know what you're on about even when you don't. I found that oddly comforting. I don't have to be - or use - a priest to know the gods are listening.
Osevens. I totally agree with you. Sometimes when I can't think of what to pray, I just say The Alphabet. "There's all the letters, God, you know what is on my heart, you can put the letters in the right order." It was something I read about how to teach young children to pray. It works for me.
I am tempted to address Harry's, let's call them, "concerns" about Christianity. I realize that a lot of Christians think all the things he accuses, but I find that these are either errors (things that Christians believe that are not biblical) or not relevant (things that Christians do that are not damning to the faith). There are many Christians who believe that Dungeons & Dragons is a Satanic practice. Obviously we have Christians here--among whom I know I can count John Cross, Eric Ashley, David Marcoe, Shawn Kelley, and Kelly Keck, at least--who agree that the game is perfectly good for Christians to play, and I think that the Christians who wrote it certainly did not see themselves creating a tool for Satanic indoctrination. Christians can be wrong about things. In fact, when I post on the Lutheran board, I often find myself saying that I know I am wrong about some of the things I believe; if I knew which ones they were, I'd correct them, but meanwhile I've corrected enough of my incorrect beliefs already that I'd have to be pretty naive to think I'd got them all.
However, I agree with Adam that this is a gaming board, and not really a place to get too deeply into discussions of what we believe. In that spirit, I will give some idea of what I believe--although honestly, my work is splattered all over the Internet, and you can find it if you're interest.
I was raised among Baptists, but the primary influence I got from them was to respect the Bible and believe it as at least historically accurate. The more I studied it, the more I found it to be true and defensible. I engaged in this study in part through interaction with Christians of many different backgrounds and denominations--in addition to the Baptists, there were the Presbyterians, Full Gospel, Charismatics, Lutherans, Episcopalians, Catholics, Orthodox, Assemblies of God, Methodists, Nazarenes, and quite a few others to one degree or another. I think--I hope--I reached something of an understanding of Christian faith that is not fettered by particular denominational positions. I know what I believe on a number of divisive issues, and I know why I believe that, and I know why others believe otherwise. For example, I believe that the rapture/tribulation/millennium doctrine mentioned by John and expounded in many books of which the Left Behind series is only the most recent, is possible but unlikely (I discuss this in my paper on what I call The Sandy Becker Theory of Eschatology). I teach scripture, and am particularly fond of Paul, and how well he manages to restate what Jesus said in ways that come through clearly to the non-semitic reader. My openness to the diversity within the Christian Church has gotten me persistently re-elected to serve as chaplain of the Christian Gamers Guild, an organization in which there are many pastors and educated laymen of many denominations, so I seem to have achieved something of a universal approach.
In creating Multiverser, I put forward a cosmology which is not that far from my own theories about spiritual realities: that there is a single creator God, who has created many spirit beings who from our perspective might properly be called gods, and given them spheres of authority; some of these have served faithfully, while others have turned against their creator, and it is difficult for mortals to understand who is on what side.
Ultimately, though, the gospel--the unifying message of the Old and New Testaments--is that God, The Creator God, wants us to trust Him. Jesus fits into that in a very complex way, as the messenger who refocused us on that message, as the way God was able to take the suffering (since any time anyone does wrong, someone suffers, and the one who forgives is the one who suffers, so God had to find a way to suffer in order for forgiveness to have any meaning) and pay the legal price of justice, and more.
However, as I say, this is not really the place for this. Anyone who wishes to discuss it in greater detail can contact me by e-mail.
--M. J. Young
I, for one, prefer to find my own way rather than follow a well-trodden path, at least spiritually. I get very wary when multiple groups claim to be the only path back to our maker and decry the others. It sounds more like Thamiel than Kether, to me, division not unity.
I look at the tale of the Garden of Eden, and the Tree that Eve ate from. Knowledge of Good and Evil. Yet... so much emphasis is placed on knowing good, and so little on understanding what evil objectively is. So I choose to walk the darker path, trying to understand evil as my path towards enlightenment. Like walking through a seemingly endless night, seeking the dawn on the far side.
DD - Wow, that's interesting. I'd love to hear more about that in detail.
MJ - I hope you don't take any offense to us discussing here. We all seem to be spiritual folk as well as gamers, and as the two seem to go together, why can't we talk about being religious gamers together?
As to my concerns about Christianity, they're just that: mine. I'm not trying to convince anyone. If I state my specific complaints, it's only so that others can see the thought process that got me to where I am today. I don't expect anyone to follow me there. In fact, please, nobody should ever use me as an example. I'm nobody's role model.
One of these days I'll have to take the time to read all of MJ's religious papers. Mostly because I'm just a geek like that, always with my nose in a book, but also because I want to see what his thought process was that got him where he is.
By the bye - at the risk of wandering farther still off-topic and airing my personal dirty laundry- I happen to be out of a job right now, so if I seem morose or anything, that's why. If any of you would see fit to include me in your prayers, I would certainly appreciate it.
DD, how can there be good without evil? How can we truly appreciate pleasure without also knowing pain? I see your point, although I would not adhere to it.
Osevens. Do you have a car that is in good working condition? Apply at the local pizza places for delivery driver. I did that for 3 years, a paycheck, cash every night, and all the pizza you can eat. It's a good job. I did get robbed once, so it can be dangerous, but just be careful, and you should be fine. After I got robbed, I started carrying pepper spray on me, and a baseball bat in the back seat of my car. "Trust in Allah, but tie up your camel." And yes, I'll try to remember to pray for you.
A1Nut - I would, but car insurance doesn't cover commercial uses of a car, and my grandfather - who used to work for Allstate - would have my head.
There's ways around that. Just don't tell the insurance company that you're using the car for delivering pizzas. If you do get into a wreck, call the pizza place. They can clock you out in the computer. "No, I was not working. I was on my way home from work and got into a wreck." That's how they told us to handle it when I worked at Donatos.
Nutty,
You can't have good without evil, or evil without good. Not in this universe, and I suspect, not in the vast majority of possible universes.
I've heard some Judeo-Christian mystics claim that evil will be transformed into something new after the judgement, but somehow that doesn't ring very true to my ears, more like wishful thinking. That's like the claims that the Torah is defined by the exact number of letters and which letters they are, but that the order is impermanent, everything written would be wiped away in the writing of a new Torah.
DD, Darkness does not exist. Darkness is the absence of light. Dryness does not exist. Dryness is the absence of water. Cold does not exist. Cold is the absence of heat. Evil does not exist, evil is the absence of God. I've seen that argument used before. Does that clear anything up?
A1Nut - I'm mostly with DD on this point.
There are people who are actively committed to evil. It's not an absence, in the sense that it's not 0 as opposed to >0. It's a genuine <0 negativity, existing as its own force.
There has to be balance for the universe to work. That's one of the things that bothers me in religions, is when they say there's no such thing as evil or negativity or any genuine counter to the all-absorbing goodness of their creator or what-have-you. If either side were all-powerful and the other weren't, the one that was would simply declare victory and that would be that. The fact that there is evil in the world at all implies to me that there has to be a balance, a duality.
My humble convictions. Your mileage may vary.
So what was the void He moved over before the famous "Let there be light."?
If evil doesn't exist, why was it named the Tree of Knowledge of Good AND Evil?
This isn't really the thread to get into a complex debate, though, unless you want it derailed from the original purpose.
If discussion of belief turns into complex debate, that sort of is the point, and better one complicatedly off-topic thread than many small ones.
I think you guys misunderstood me. I said that was an argument I read for it. I did NOT say that it was something I believed in. Sorry for the confusion. It was something I read, that when asked how God could allow evil to exist, evil was the absence of God. That God does not allow evil to exist, but in a place that God is not, evil can thrive. It's not really something I believe in, just a metaphor I thought appropriate.
Ah, I savvy.
I am a Christian. I also believe in werewolves, The Loch Ness Monster, Bigfoot, Yeti, and probably anything else with a reasonable amount of eye-witnesses. I believe that if it did not exist, no one would see it. I also believe that if God created it, He could have created it to be smart enough to evade detection. I also believe in Extra-Terrestrial life, and the theory of the Multiverse. If God is truly all-powerful, why could He not have created infinite planets and universes? I totally believe that. I think of the Multiverse as being a Heaven of sorts. When I get to Heaven, I want to become a verser. Maybe have a 5,000 verse limit on it, I would want to see my family EVENTUALLY!!!
Ya know Osevens... I just had a thought. Reincarnation is kind of like Multiverser. Living lives over and over. What is that, if not versing? I'm pretty open-minded about religion. As far as I can tell, most wiccans are decent people. Why could God have not borrowed some of their traditions? Maybe both religions have basis in one. I believe it's within the realm of possibility. Could it be that there is a compromise? Your soul, when it was sent, choose a reincarnated path. My soul, just wanted to try it once. We got led by God down those paths. This is why I like opening religion threads. You can often come to good compromises with people of other faiths.
A1Nut ++
I definitely agree with the idea about reincarnation, and that Versing would make a very cool afterlife. And yes, I believe in compromise. To say that there is no compromise is to say that there is one definite right truth, and I don't think that's true. It's certainly possible that what you said in your last post is true - the whole one basis thing. I think all the religions have a piece of it, that's why I've tried so many.
And yeah, isn't it cool how many different ways there are to experience God? It almost makes you think He did it on purpose. *grin*
You do believe in the same God as I do right? What are your gods?
I call it the "What If Factor" What If I had been born a girl? What If I asked that girl out that one time? What If you turned right instead of left? Multiverser goes into detail about the What Ifs in life. That's why I love it so much. What If we can become versers in the afterlife? What If reincarnation and what I believe exist together? What If Allah is partly right too? Ask me about the blind men that went to see the elephant for an explaination. Who knows? As DC Talk said "Just trust in Him, and a trumpet will sound, and all God's children are Heav-Heav-Heavenbound!!!"
A1Nut - Whether or not I believe in the same God you do is a very complicated question. The simple version is, probably not. After six rewrites I realize I'm far too tired to explain myself coherently tonight, so I'll leave it at that until tomorrow, but remind me and I'll try again.
And yes, the What If-ness is great. It's interesting to me to see the ripples that happen from changing one thing or another and seeing what it does out in the world.
Did you ever see Sliding Doors?
No.
Well, back to the original question, do you worship the same God that I do?
Sliding doors is a cool movie having to do with what you're talking about. A woman gets on a subway, then in the next run, she misses it. The movie shows how differently her life turns out because of that one event. If you're interested in What Ifs, it's a really good movie to check out.
As to that question, the simple answer is no. I have thoroughly rejected the Judeo-Christian idea of God, and I do not in any way worship or believe in the divinity of Jesus, so, no.
Like I said before, I like the Hindi idea that all the gods are interconnected, and that praying to any of them makes sure the right one hears. I believe that there is more than one deity, that at the very least there are the God and the Goddess even if they're not named any further than that. I prefer to have names because it makes them more relatable, and I like the Norse gods for that because I feel that they're a better example than the Greek gods, less creepy than the Egyptian gods, and more familiar than the various African examples my friends follow.
I could fully well except that the mysterious, distant deity of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition existed, if he were one among many, but the traditions he appears in like to say he's the only one, and I don't believe that. He has plenty in common with the creator gods of other traditions, but... my reasons for not wanting much to do with him are outlined in my other posts: contrary revelations, disjointed traditions, narcissism, etc. It's all somewhat difficult to explain shortly, I'm afraid.
No, I won't object to a civil discussion of religious ideas on this board. After all, Multiverser is a game in which all realities are true somewhere. My mind is open as to whether there actually is or ever was a spirit being who used the name Odin and revealed himself to the Norse people, as long as I can categorize him as a created spirit. I can imagine a world in which Odin is the ruling deity, even the creator, although I do not believe such a world actually exists.
I would say that the best paper you can read for the foundations of my faith is probably the book not yet published, Do You Trust Me? The book What Does God Expect? is good if you want my understanding of how Christianity relates to moral law (and About the Fruit is good in that regard as well, although in a very different way--too, it gives some insight into how I perceive Paul's relationship to the teaching of Jesus, which I know is a problem for Harry). But Do You Trust Me? is going to rather simply present that gospel message that is found in the dawn of time stories, showing why Christianity is not merely the true Judaism but the faith that was always taught in the Old Testament from the earliest pages of Genesis. It also manages to be the ultimate truth without invalidating the value of other religions, but I don't think I go quite that far in the book, although I lay the foundation for that.
Since I'm a scholar and teacher in this field, and you're not signed up to take instruction from me, I'm going to limit myself to matters that are particularly asked, as well as I can.
--M. J. Young
If you have opinions of the invisible man in the sky who watches over everyone lives closely and needs his own massive ego constantly fed through prayer, it's best to keep them civil. Atleast from my POV.