An Unfamiliar Familiar Forest, John Oakmaster alone in a new world · Page 5

"Would I seek to simply save myself if others are in danger? I'll stay with you, and do what can be done to help. And may the LORD be with us..."

You are interrupted as two of the men rush toward you, knives drawn, and one shouts, "Don't move! How did you get here?"

Tuck looks flustered. "What are you talking about? This is John, the healer the Good Lord sent to us."

The man looks a bit abashed, but does not lower his knife. "Beggin' your pardon, Friar, but he suddenly appeared, right there in our midst. How was I to know who he was? In fact, how do you know this is a man at all, and not some demon?"

"Or some angel? Did you think of that? I'm sure it's much simpler. You were probably imbibing of nature's finest, and suddenly realized he'd snuck up on you! John, I'm very sorry for all this. Apparently your woodcraft has gotten much better, if our sentries didn't spot you."

"But Friar, I was staring right there, and he suddenly appeared!"

"Aye, Friar, I saw it, too."

--M. J. Young

I smile reassuringly, and speak soothingly and peacefully.

"Nay, lads, I am not a demon, nor an angel. It is indeed quite simple. I prayed to the LORD, and the LORD brought me back to you all, by His mighty arm, to His glory alone."

"Have you not read the Holy Scripture, how Philip baptized the Ethopian eunuch, then was caught away by the Spirit of the LORD, and brought elsewhere?"

"So the LORD has done to me, both just now when I appeared before you from afar, and also the very first night I appeared here at the campfire."

They stare at you, confused.

One of them says, "Does it really say that in the Bible, Friar?"

"Indeed it does, my boy, indeed it does. We seem to have come into an age of miracles; who would have hoped? God may have sent Robin some seriously needed help."

It can't exactly be said that they relax, but they do lower their weapons and apologize. Tuck assures them that it was quite understandable that they would be startled. "After all, no one really expects miracles, do we?"

--M. J. Young

I smile a bit sadly, and nod thoughtfully.

"Perhaps that is one reason why they are so rare."

"What's that? How do you mean, brother John? We don't often have saints in our midst, you know--Peter and Paul have been gone a long time. Ordinary Catholics like ourselves are hardly fit vessels for God's power, now, are we? I mean, the good Lord is kind enough to grant a few of my prayers in the care of my flock, but I would never expect him to work the sort of wonders I find in the scriptures."

--M. J. Young

"'As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.'"

"My friend, none of us at all are fit vessels for God's power. Who was Peter, but a fisherman who denied the LORD thrice? Who was Paul, but a persecutor of His church, and an accessory to the murder of Stephen?"

"It is not our own righteousness, but God's grace alone, given through His Son's atoning sacrifice alone, that makes us fit vessels in His sight for His power."

"What could be more 'ordinary' than the apostles, before the LORD chose them?"

"It is true that I am from afar, and less ordinary than some. And it is true that I am hardly Catholic, since I hold to the LORD alone, revealed through His Holy Scripture alone, and not to pope or priest."

"But when the LORD talked of faith that could move mountains, he spoke to ordinary, unfit vessels... except for His grace."

"Your modesty is all quite appropriate for a saint; but is it not true that the miracles accompanying you are not those common even among saints? You speak truly that Philip was carried from place to place by the Lord's hand, but Paul walked far more miles than that, and the Good Lord did not simply lift Peter out of prison but had the angel walk him out. Peter and Paul certainly healed many, but there is no record that Philip did so. I have seen the Lord save a few lives when I thought sure they would die, heal a few wounds which were very serious, and give strength to weary men who needed it. I have never seen the fevered arise from the bed of sickness as Peter's mother-in-law did when Jesus came to her. Is this then my fault, that I do not believe? I would rather think that it is because God has chosen special people and given them unique gifts, and my gifts are more humble than this."

--M. J. Young

I nod thoughtfully.

"You touch upon a mystery, which we may not fully understand in this life. For these things are both correct, are they not?"

"What saith the Scriptures?"

"On the one hand, we are all at fault before the LORD when we fall short of His holy and righteous standard for us. As we read in the first chapter of James:"

Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

"Yet the Scriptures also clearly teach that it is only through His grace that we have any ability whatsoever to follow Him. As we read in the second chapter of Ephesians:"

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

"And further, in the ninth chapter of Romans:"

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion...

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

"So the LORD does indeed choose people, but not from any fitness or righteousness or goodness they themselves possess. It is by His grace. But we are all responsible to follow His commands."

"And as we read in the second chapter of Philippians:"

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

"Ah, Wycliff has done wonders for biblical literacy in England. Is that his translation?"

"But ultimately, Brother John, this matters in the practical. Should I expect God to work miracles, to heal and to deliver in those same dramatic ways that He did centuries ago? Should I expect Him to work other wonders, as He has done for you? Or would that be presumption, expecting God to do my bidding instead of submitting to His will in all things?"

--M. J. Young

I consider thoughtfully.

"It is indeed presumption to expect God to do our bidding. But I do not believe that it is presumption to ask God to enable us to do His bidding."

"What saith the Scriptures? In the twelfth chapter of First Corinthians, Paul tells us that the Holy Spirit gives various gifts to various members of the body, such as wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, miracles, prophecy, etc."

"'But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.'"

"The LORD does not make every part of His body a foot, or hand, or ear, or eye, but gives the parts of His body different functions according to His will."

"Now the Scriptures do record many promises and assurances that the LORD graciously gives us, and commandments He wishes us to obey. So I do not think that it is presumption to reverently claim such promises, and ask for His aid to enable us to do His will according to those promises."

"But in what manner will the LORD answer such requests? According to His will. And for different members of His body, His will may well be different."

"As for me, I believe that the LORD has brought me here as a vessel to turn hearts from the darkness of the traditions of men to the light of His Holy Scripture. 'Let he who has ears to hear, let him hear.'"

"But in answer to your practical question... I do not think it presumption to ask... but with the realization that He may well have a different role in His body for you to play than for me."

--Oops, I've got Wycliffe out of place. He follows Magna Carta by a century, and we're still a bit before that. Ignore him.

"You have much wisdom, brother.

"But when you speak of turning away from traditions, is there not also a danger in this? We have the great work of the great minds--Augustine, Athanasius, Jerome, Justin Martyr, and so many others. I would not presume to understand scripture better than they. They lived while the languages in which the scripture is written were still spoken, and the lands in which the gospel was first preached were still Roman. Should I think my meager intellectual abilities will bring me a truer answer than that taught by such great minds so close to the time of our Lord? Tradition keeps us from inventing new religions, from wandering into the errors of Arius or Marcion or Montanus. Is not tradition a good and valuable part of our faith?"

--M. J. Young

Sigh. Too bad about Wycliffe. I thought I had unearthed an extremely interesting and relevant divergence point from our own history to follow up on later. ;)

"Did not the LORD Jesus Christ Himself speak of tradition? Indeed he did, as the seventh chapter of Mark tells us..."

And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

"Therefore, we are instructed in what we must keep, which is the commandment of God. And we are also instructed in what we must reject, which is any tradition which conflicts with the commandment of God."

"And how do we know the commandment of God? Through the Holy Scripture. As Paul writes in the third chapter of the second letter to Timothy:"

Thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

"Therefore, the Holy Scriptures alone contain the commandments of God. So any teaching or tradition must be examined to ensure that it follows Holy Scripture. And any that does not, whether from ancient tradition, or from priest, or from pope, must be rejected, lest we turn away from following God's commandment."

"Well, I'm not sure Rome would agree with that; but then, maybe the Waldensians have something we should consider. Are you with them?"

--M. J. Young

"Sadly, I also doubt that Rome would agree with that. But for those who would elevate tradition over the commandment of God, the teaching of the LORD Jesus Christ is quite clear:"

He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men...

"'He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.'"

"As for the Waldensians, I have not yet had the honour of meeting with them. But from what I have heard of them and their faithfulness in following God's commandments, I am indeed with them."

"Indeed, I haven't met them myself, being here in England with my own flock to tend. But word is they are all laymen, most uneducated, who teach the Bible, but they don't always get it right, and so the Church wants them to be guided and directed by the more educated priests wherever they go. After all, it does say that the Lord gave some to be the preachers--apostles like Peter and Paul, prophets like Ananais, evangelists like Philip, and in our own time pastors in our churches and teachers in our universities. You obviously are an educated man; but if the Waldensians want to preach and teach, shouldn't they seek the education needed to serve in one of these holy offices?"

--M. J. Young

"Only if those providing the education faithfully instruct according to Holy Scripture as the sole authority of sound doctrine."

"But if the teachers and priests, or even the very Church itself, chooses to elevate any commandment of man over the commandment of God, as indeed they do, then these Waldensians do well to reject such 'education'."

"Indeed, that passage in second Timothy just mentioned is most eloquent as to the sufficiency of Holy Scripture."

"And what is it that is able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith? What is given by inspiration of God? What is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness? What enables the man of God to be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works?"

"Not tradition. Not ancients. Not priest. Not pope. Not Rome. Not Church. Not any commandment of men. But the commandment of God alone, passed onto us today through the Holy Scriptures alone."

"You make a good argument, brother. But then, my own Greek and Hebrew are not so good; I would not trust myself to know the meaning of the text without the aid of my teachers. Perhaps the Lord has given you light into the Holy Scriptures to help you find the true meaning, but it is not easy come to the truth without the help of another. Indeed, even you have helped me understand these scriptures--but does that not then make you a teacher alongside these others? No, brother, we need teachers who can correctly interpret the scripture to us; and what are the traditions but the records of those teachers who have done so in the generations before us?"

--M. J. Young

"Indeed, my friend, we do indeed need teachers who can correctly interpret the Holy Scripture to us. Paul agrees as well, as he writes in the fourth chapter of Ephesians:"

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ...

"But the Holy Scriptures also make clear that there are those who forsake the commandments of God for the commandments of men."

"And what saith the Holy Scriptures of such? 'Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.'"

"So then, the Holy Scriptures teach that we do need teachers who can correctly interpret the Holy Scripture to us, as you say."

"And how can we tell whether a teaching correctly interprets the Holy Scripture? By comparing Holy Scripture with Holy Scripture to ensure that it is indeed a correct interpretation."

"But it is still the Holy Scripture that is the sole authority."

I pause, looking kindly yet curiously at him.

"Let me ask you a question, my dear friend Tuck."

"As you look at the teachings of the Romish church, do you truly see all of them as coming from the LORD? Can you find all of them as commandments of God in the Holy Scripture? Or are any of them merely commandments of men?"

"Please think well, and tell me truly, and yourself also. Have you ever pondered such a question, and wondered?"

Just as an aside, your bible quotes have the look of being cut-and-paste. Are you typing them from memory, or are you remembering them correctly and then copying them for convenience/speed, or are you in character reading them to Tuck from your bible?

"Well--" he hems a bit.

"Take the Trinity. Do I see in the Bible where it says that God is three persons of one substance, or whatever the formula is? I can't say that I do. What I see is some confusing texts that make be believe that Jesus and the Father and the Spirit are all God, but there is only one God, but they aren't all really the same person. So the great doctors of the church have put this together into something called the Trinity, which is not really stated in the Bible but seems to be the truth that the Bible teaches, doesn't it? There might be many truths like that, things that the more learned have come to understand as being taught by the Bible which are beyond my grasp. Can you honestly tell me that any of the teachings of the Catholic Church are not taught in scripture? I don't think I'm educated enough to be certain of that."

--M. J. Young

I was assuming that my Perfect Memory would do the job. If not, then I will read them to Tuck from my Bible. :)

"I am satisfied with the doctrine of the Trinity from Scripture. To take two examples, from the first chapter of Genesis and the last chapter of Matthew respectively:"

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost...

"However, I can indeed think of a few Catholic Church teachings that I do not see from Holy Scripture."

"For example... let us examine the Virgin Mary, and the Saints. How would you describe the Catholic Church teachings concerning them? Do you think this doctrine is supported by Holy Scripture?"

Ah! Perfect Memory is a skill, and if you're using it we have to roll it. You've got a 1@3 SAL+20 SM for self-referential mind reading+2x6@ psi bias+2@1 BRA=66% chance that it will work, and I can bonus for things you got almost right by your own memory, but at least until you reach professional level with it we can't "assume" it works."

"The church teaches many things concerning the Mary, Mother of God. Certainly that's in scripture--she gave birth to Jesus, who is God incarnate. She was said to be full of grace, and what is grace but the gift God would share with all of us? What is it that you think is untrue about the church's teaching concerning Mary?

"As to the saints, which particular saints did you have in mind? We know that Peter and Paul and John and the other writers of the New Testament were inspired by God, that their words were the very message of God to us. It teaches us that holy men of God can deliver God's message to us, God-breathed, I think it says. What about the church's teaching about the saints do you question?"

--M. J. Young

OOC: I am definitely quite familiar with the passages I am quoting, but without successful Perfect Memory I would be paraphrasing a bit more rather than giving exact quotes, and I would not always be as precise as to exactly which book and chapter a given passage was from. So I would probably be eligible for some bonuses... :)

I consider his questions thoughtfully, knowing that theological expertise was not a given in this day and age, and wondering what his state of knowledge is.

"How would you describe church teaching about them, and the roles they have in a believer's life today?"

For the present, then, so as not to bog down the game with the rolls (it would be different at the table, where you could try to quote the passage and then decide whether it was close enough, or you wanted to pull out your Bible or roll for perfect memory) we'll assume that your quotations are close enough.

"The roles Mary and the Apostles play in our lives today? Well, for one thing, they have given us the truth, the scriptures, and founded the church through which we have preserved our tradition, including the tradition of which books are genuinely those of our Apostles. They also are there to help us, just as you and I are here to help Robin's men and their families and the people of England, not to say each other; they can pray for us just as we pray for each other. But then, they are also to be revered--I wouldn't expect to have a casual conversation, or even a discussion like ours, with Paul. If he spoke to me, I would take notes; I certainly wouldn't argue."

--M. J. Young

I listen thoughtfully.

"I am aware that the seventh chapter of Hebrews speaks of the role of Jesus Christ as our high priest, including:"

Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

"And I am aware that the eighth chapter of Romans speaks of the Spirit and of the Son in making intercession for us:"

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

"But I am not aware of Holy Scripture saying that we are to petition dead believers to intercede for us with the Father, or with the Son, or with the Spirit. For Jesus Christ is already our Intercessor, is He not?"

"Well, brother, first of all, I'm not sure I like your suggestion that the saints are 'dead'. Is it not our hope that as Christ lives, so they too live with Him? And I think that the scripture does tell us that we ought to pray for each other. If you asked me to pray for you, I certainly would, and I know you have been making intercession on behalf of the sick throughout Nottinghamshire, and would no doubt do so on my behalf as well. I assure you, were the Apostle Peter to ask me to pray for him (not that I can imagine or would suggest that he where he now lives would ever need my intercession) I would do so in an instant. Do you think he would be so self-important that he would not similarly do so for me? Or do you think he truly is dead, and unable to pray on our behalves, and that the hope of the resurrection is--well, I know you don't believe that, brother; I won't even say such a blasphemous thing."

--M. J. Young

I nod humbly.

"Ah, please forgive my slow tongue in this land."

"When I say that the saints are dead, I speak not against the hope of their resurrection and their eternal life through Christ, or against ours."

"But at this moment, do they still walk the earth? I think not. For do not the Holy Scriptures speak of Christ as the judge of 'the quick and the dead'?"

"And even when Paul writes of our hope in the resurrection, how does he describe it? We read in the fifteenth chapter of First Corinthians:"

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

"If he says the dead shall be raised, then I trust I do no violence to Holy Scripture, nor disrespect to the apostles, nor denial of our hope of the resurrection, when I say that the apostles are currently not among the living on this earth, but are currently among the dead."

"If then the bodies of the apostles are not currently alive and walking among us, how then do you seek to present a petition to them for their intercession upon your behalf?"

"The Scriptures indeed encourage us to pray for one another. But you asking me to pray prayers of intercession for you, or me asking you to pray such prayers for me, is an entirely different thing than supposing we can communicate with those whose bodies have already perished from this earth."

"Jesus Christ indeed spoke with Moses and Elijah, but He is God."

"Now, does Holy Scripture ever speak of the living, other than the Son of God, speaking with the dead? Indeed it does, when King Saul sought to speak with Samuel. But Saul sought to do so through sinful divination, which Holy Scripture speaks quite clearly against."

"And, without warrant from Holy Scripture, do we dare suppose that those who have died in the LORD before us are somehow able to hear our petitions, and intercede for us with God? Do we dare say that their presence or knowledge is so wide as to hear whatever petitions are made from wherever they are made?"

"The Holy Scripture speaks very clearly, for there is only One who has such power, and presence, and knowledge. He is a jealous God, and there is none else. He will not share His glory with another. And, apart from fellow believers living still upon this earth, what intercessors does Holy Scripture speak of, except the Son alone, and the Spirit alone?"

As I listen to his response, I silently pray for the LORD to open his heart to receive the truth of Holy Scripture...

As I listen to his response, I silently pray for the LORD to open his heart to receive the truth of Holy Scripture...

Tuck is very uncertain, but he thinks for a moment. "Doesn't Paul also say," he begins hesitantly, "that he looks forward to being absent from the body because that would mean he is at home with the Lord?" Gaining a bit of confidence, he continues, "Yes, and somewhere, too, that if our earthly tabernacles are destroyed we move into the heavenly buildings. That sounds like we have an immediate hope, that life does not end but continues with God from the moment of death. Do you think it is not like that?"

--M. J. Young

Your summation of my prayer mechanics seems reasonable...

"No, dear Tuck, I agree. Were not Moses and Elijah able to converse with Jesus Christ? And forget not also His words on the cross to the dying thief:"

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

"If Jesus Christ assured that dying thief that he would be with Him 'today', then what could be clearer? That assurance is our assurance as well."

"But note that being home with the LORD indeed means that the saints, including the apostles and Mary, are absent from the body. Therefore, we are unable to petition them, and they are unable to hear us. So they cannot serve as our intercessors, regardless of what Rome teaches. Apart from those fellow believers who are still present in the body, Holy Scripture clearly teaches that our only intercessors are the Son and the Spirit."

I consider thoughtfully.

"Since we are on the subject, my friend, what does Rome teach concerning what happens after we die?"

"Well, I'm not sure you're right, and that means I'm not sure the Church is wrong, and I think in such a case it's safer, spiritually speaking, to give the benefit of the doubt to the church. I seem to recall mention in John's Apocalypse something about the saints under the altar watching us, but I could have it wrong. I can't know everything, and you can't know everything, and at some point we have to trust the people who should know."

"Well, it's obvious that when we die we face the judgment seat of Christ. After that, well, that's up to Him, isn't it?"

--M. J. Young

"If we are given a choice between the commandment of the LORD and the commandment of men, and choose the latter, do we not worship the LORD in vain? For this is what that Scripture we have already discussed plainly states."

"And how would you put your trust in the people of the church 'who should know', rather than in the Word of God? Who were those who were chief in opposing our Lord and Savior upon this earth, and in seeking His crucifixion, if not the leaders of the church, the very ones who should know? Who were those who were chief in opposing Peter, and Paul, if not the leaders of the church?"

"We cannot know everything, but the LORD does. So it is to the Word of God alone that we must seek confirmation of what is right and what is wrong. As it is written in the eight chapter of the prophet Isaiah:"

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

"Think well, as the noble minded Bereans from the seventeenth chapter of Acts, who 'received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.'"

"Should we not do the same, friend Tuck?"

"I certainly agree that we should examine the scriptures to come to the truth; but I am not so confident of my own intellect as to say that I would know better than, say, our own recent archbishop Anselm, may he rest in peace. There have been some great minds even in this century--Abelard, Bernard, Peter Lombard. I don't pretend that I can understand everything they wrote; I won't even pretend I've read it all. But if I think that my understanding of the Bible is better than Will Scarlet's or John Little's, should I not also see that the church has men whose understanding is superior to mine? Or would you suggest that the beliefs these common men have from what they have heard read from the Bible, who are apt to begin praying to you if you continue working miracles, should be considered just as close to the truth as those of these scholars who have dedicated their lives to trying to understand scripture?"

--M. J. Young

My response is still pending, but this is a thread bump for Ky to find it more easily... :)

"Did the Bereans leave their searching of the Scriptures daily for others to do? Or did they do it themselves? And so should we not follow their Scriptural example?"

I consider thoughtfully as the full force of his latter words sink in, and frown in concern.

"Do you really think that these folk would fall into such error as to pray to me in response to these miracles, rather than giving glory to the LORD alone? And if so, how would you advise me to proceed, so that I may continue ministering where there is need while avoiding such a snare?"

Just a bit of an out of character aside... I really don't have as much knowledge of theological matters as MJ, or you, or even Friar Tuck, who I assume without actually checking to be a high level amateur or low level professional. However, I have looked over the conversation, and am hard pressed to determine your goal in the conversation, thus hard pressed to settle it with a roll. Are you attempting to persuade him more towards your way of thinking? With most things I would use a persuasion check, but in this case I feel a religion skill check for both parties involving relative success, success for both meaning that the target convert is not swayed, failure for the player meaning that the target convert is not swayed, and failure for the convert and success for the player meaning that the convert has been swayed to the character's line of thinking. Or are you attempting to further educate him in his religion, trying to help him raise his religion skill level as well as your own? Or is it idle banter?

My goals are to persuade him more towards my way of thinking, and to help him raise his religion skill level as well as my own. :)

Let me inject something of my understanding of the situation.

We're a couple centuries before the Reformation. We're before Wycliff, who is before Hus, who is before Luther. By the time we get to Luther, the Roman Catholic Church will be a lot of the horrible things the Protestants protested. Oak is of a very anti-Catholic persuasion, who sees a lack of significant correction in the Roman church. He is trying to win Tuck over to an understanding of the Christian faith that shows the flaws in Reformation-era and post-Reformation Catholicism. Those flaws are not yet fully formed, though--he's dealing with a pre-Reformation Medieval Catholicism in which those flaws are incipient but most have not yet crossed the line. The Pope is seen as being in charge, and indeed we're right in the middle of the decaying period in which politics becomes such a huge factor in the church; but there's still a reasonable basis for the notion that someone has to be trusted to have the last word in all theological debates. People do "pray" to "saints", but still in the way of asking a friend to pray on their behalves, not yet as perceiving the saints themselves as answering prayers. The concept of tradition is strong, but the Catholic church perceives it as explaining scripture and Oak sees it as replacing scripture.

So there is a degree to which Oak is trying to correct errors in Tuck's thinking that aren't quite what Oak thinks they are. What Tuck believes is still within the boundaries of Christian faith, but tinged with some of the thinking of the age (Divine Right of Kings, for example) and holding the potential for the kind of misunderstanding that will lead to the errors Oak rejects.

I've been rolling persuasion versus will power on these (Tuck's got a 2@6 Will Power, 2@5 religion, and a stack of holy magic skills in the upper amateur to mid professional level he would object to calling magic--highest is a 2@8 protection against magic (self)). My recollection is that Tuck usually holds his ground in close contests (higher successful roll wins, but a close loss is not a severe loss). He's shifted a bit in his thinking, because Oak has good arguments (and I've bonused his persuasion a couple times for good arguments).

I think over time what will happen is that Tuck's understanding of Catholicism will be supplemented by Oak's input. Depending on which way Oak handles things, though, he's likely to become Saint John of Nottinghamshire, and to have a significant impact on the theological development of the Roman Catholic Church in England and its participation in the Reformation in the years ahead. I don't expect he'll be around long enough to see that.

The real interesting question, though, is how he handles the potential adulation. He has been healing the sick more and more, and the church would probably have no trouble already connecting three miracles to him. Catholics in England (and there are some Jews, but no one else) are going to start perceiving him as a saint (some undoubtedly already do), and "praying him for his prayers on their behalf" pretty soon. It's going to give him a very different perspective on the matter--on the one hand, if someone asks him to pray that God would heal, he's not going to want to refuse; on the other hand, that puts him in the position of "saint", exactly as the Roman church presently (in 1195) treats it: asking someone who appears to have a closer connection to God than you do to pray for you.

I can probably lend you Paul Tillich's book on the development of Christian thought from the second through early twentieth centuries; it overlooks some important ones after Calvin because Tillich is a bit of a liberal himself and ignores conservative church threads in favor of those with a strong philosophical progressivist bent. But if you want it, add it to the list of things I should send with your brother, if you're going to connect.  It does have summaries of those people Tuck named above--Abelard, Anselm--although you could probably track them down through Wikipedia if you want.

--M. J. Young

Little did poor Ky suspect what he was getting himself into... :o

(persuasion check: 13, will power check: 39, it doesn't get much more clear than that, now, does it?!) After a lengthy conversation, Tuck admits that your viewpoint makes a great deal of sense. He expresses that he would not personally feel comfortable actively defying the church's teachings or teaching others things the church does not teach, but he also says that he has reached a place in his thinking where he isn't sure why the church does not teach the scripture as you see it. (sorry for the long delay in posting, had some recent complications in life)

OOC: This is just a heads-up that my work schedule is pretty wild these days, so my game thread response time may suffer more than a bit... :o

I suppose my other post in MJ's "Behind the Screens" thread could be deleted now, though I also suppose that the damage is already done... :p