Andre Norton

I am exhausted from lack of sleep so any errors of logic or wit will be blamed on an insomniac and his insomniac child having to rise waaaaaay early in the morn, and stay up.

Its been suggested before that psionic worlds are notably hard. I've been reading Andre Norton a lot over the last couple weeks as the house came equipped with a library when we bought it. She refutes the premise with just her own work. Almost every one of her books has psionics in it, and she wrote a huge number of novels over a very long career.

She does not always call it psi power. The Witches of Estcarp use the Power. The Sorceress of Witch World defines things in the same world as witchcraft which is simple and sorceress which is more ritualistic and complicated and advanced. In the Crossroads of Time, the cross-time agents use mind power. In The Defiant Agents, American Apaches and Russian Mongols have a machine used on them to bring to their minds racial memories. Also, their is another usage that has a machine that controls the "Mongols" at the whim of their Red masters like zombies.

However, in certain of her books there does seem to be "Magic-magic", not just psi that appears to be magic. And I'm not sure she makes a real distinction between the two of these concepts.

In a lot of her worlds, they are relatively straight forward alt-historical with the addition of a psionic elite. Sometimes this psi elite is going out as other forces overwhelm it. Her work is often of kingdoms falling and failing but still putting up the good fight. She also has a very colorful touch in that she reminds me of Tolkien and Zelazny.

So let's see if I can make a psi world or two inspired by the grande dame of SF herself....
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The Licaut came to the Plateau that overlooks the Rouge River after being driven from their homeland further south by nomadic hordes. Here they found a pleasant land with ancient evidences of being gardened, and pastured. Intriguing ruins were found, and often built upon again for what makes a spot good to one man will often make it good to another.

The Old Race, as the Licaut named them, were a people of evident refinement in their fine shaped stones, and from the occasional jewelwork discovered, but no one could decipher their runic language found in occasional engravings on the walls to find out what disaster had overcome them. The Licaut, in honor of their predecessors, and to appease any vengeful spirits, did on high days offer a sacrifice of grain and game bird to their gods for the Old Race.

And the Licaut prospered, and their steadings grew from huts to wide farms for the Licaut unlike the Old Race were truly a people born to farm. They loved the feel of warm earth between their fingers, and their highest deity was a god of the harvest who commanded them to sow well and true seed from his hand that after the end of their mortal life they might reap a bountiful harvest. The Old Race had been more eccletic, fey, and a bit strange, but some of their oddness passed on to the more earth centered Licaut. For some of the Licaut, when prosperity was well upon them, would take up the study of the Old Race, and their writings.

And thus was opened a door in the mind of the Licaut. Dowsers, and weatherseers, animal talkers, and trail sniffers came. Later, came strange men who could See into the heart, or into a wound and heal it, or into time itself to know what had happened. The national character of the Licaut did not like this strangeness, but practicality spoke loudly. It was good to know when a storm would race over the Rouge Valley and hammer the heights of the Licaut Plateau. It saved much effort to dowse for water or for iron. But still, such folk were uncanny, and uncomfortable, and so they held themselves quiet and to some degree separate, and behaved circumspectly as sometimes their neighbours were too keen to believe someone 'touched by the Old Ones' was warped and keen to criminal acts.

And thus it might have continued on, but the nomads had despoiled the land they stole, and others as well. And now the Hirgoni have come again to the Licaut, and they expect the Licaut to flee again. But the Licaut have bonded to their land, and felt secure in it for long centuries. They know its a natural fort, and that its wealth and ease of life is not found easily under the Twin Moons of Deukranoor.

Also, the Hirgoni are hateful of all who have 'stolen the gods' fire', of those who have psionic gifts or can read, and would slaughter them out of hand. The fey blood of the empowered ones flames at the insult, and natural logic of self-preservation makes them at the forefront of defense.

The stolid, dark-eyed, and brown-haired men of Licaut love their land, and find themselves unwilling to move. And many of them have a fine scorn that rises above the love of good earth to become a flame.

So, the Licaut turn back the emmissaries of the Hirgoni even though the Hirgoni are many times their number. But, it will take many times their number for the Hirgoni to force the natural fortress of the plateau. And so they go away for now, but they begin to raid the caravans of the Licaut which go to other cities and lands. Perhaps enough raids and the Licaut will see reason, they say among themselves as they gather their camels by the campfire.

And perhaps some traitor inside the Licaut will open the gates to the enemy which is how many a fortress fell. Some man, some trusted man, who hates the empowered ones, and loves gold more than his homeland is all the Hirgoni need, and all who understand know this.

O.K., I apparently have created the impression that I think psionic worlds are somehow extremely difficult to devise. Let me restate this.

There are a lot fewer variations on psionic worlds as standard tropes, as compared with those which involve magic. Those which leap to mind:

1. Space opera with psionic piece, e.g., Star Trek, Blake's 7, Star Frontiers.
2. Star Wars, which is more science fantasy and very borderline as to whether that is all psionics or magic.
3. Post-apocalyptic with psionics based on mutations, e.g., Gamma World.
4. Modern B-movie horror type where an individual becomes a monster because of psionic ability.
5. Fantasy Magic/Psionic combination world, e.g., Original Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Second Edition.

It is certainly possible to create unfamiliar psionic-driven worlds.

1. Psicop 1984 is such a world, throwing psionic abilities into the mix of an oppressive Big Brother Watching scenario.
2. Dune, which like Star Wars is pretty much its own genre, mixing chemically induced psionics with mystically practiced psionics.
3. Lilith's World, still in production, in which drug-induced psionics lead to a very strange sort of reality.

I'm afraid that I am woefully ill-read in the areas in which I ought to be better read. Can't help it; there's too much to read. I've never read any Andre Norton--didn't even know he was a she. For that matter, I've never read (as far as I know--I've read quite a few issues of Omni Magazine decades ago, and it is entirely possible that any of these authors were included in something I read there) Lequin, Heinlein, Zelazny, Robert Howard, Edgar Rice Burroughs, Terry Brooks, Robert Jordan, Arthur C. Clarke--and the list goes on and on and on. On the other hand, I'm one of the few people I know who actually have read Ivanhoe, Pilgrim's Progress, Paley's Evidences for the Christian Religion, more than one book by Charles Williams (Descent Into Hell, War in Heaven, and Greater Trumps), and I've tackled quite a bit of the work of C. S. Lewis and most of the early stuff by Ray Bradbury. I've read at least one book by Asimov (Fantastic Voyage, as a child and again as an adult), and not more than one by Crichton (Andromeda Strain). I've read the classics Alas Babylon and On the Beach long enough ago that we were still living in fear of those scenarios at the time.

Part of me feels like I just have not read enough of the right kind of books. I don't know enough of the tropes and can't easily improvise the kinds of worlds everyone knows from the modern writers.

I ran OAD&D games for maybe twenty years before demand for me to run Multiverser crowded out any time I had for a regular gaming group. I can throw together a fantasy world on the fly. A psionics world? That takes a lot of work--and I barely have time to do the stuff I'm supposed to be getting ready for publication.

So I am sorry that I feel like psionic worlds are tough to create. It's not really so much that it's harder to create an original psi world than to create an original tech or mag world. It's that it's harder for me to do it because I don't have a lot of exposure to what's been done in the field, so I'm groping around looking for ideas without much inspiration. I feel like the options for psi-based worlds are limited because I haven't seen all that many good psi-based worlds, and most of those I have seen are either so specific (Dune, Star Wars) that it would be impossible to make something "like that" without being an obvious clone, or so general (Star Trek, Gamma World) that there's not much interesting there.

So I'm happy to see creative and interesting psi-based worlds that provide challenges for verser player characters. I thought the B-movie world was a pretty good stab at a psi-based world (although there was a lot of tech and bod in it as well). I just find it difficult to create a lot of psi worlds that are actually different from each other; they tend to blur together.

--M. J. Young

A nice revision. I think once you start working on the psi thing a bit, the mental block can be worked past. But its probably there (the block) in part because you don't have the tropes to guide you. You have to realize...oh yeah, I can make a story like so.

So I'm finding it easier now to make psi worlds, but for some time it was quite hard.

==Lequin, Heinlein, Zelazny, Robert Howard, Edgar Rice Burroughs, Terry Brooks, Robert Jordan, Arthur C. Clarke--

Well, I'd reccomend "Star Man's Son" for Norton, or as the retitled copy to my right "Daybreak-2250 A.D.". Its a post-apocalyptic many generations removed SF written in 1952.

Leguin...Earthsea was fantasy, and it had an odd magic system, and a bit of a different culture, but it wasn't that great.
Heinlein...read the earlier stuff before he got Too Big To Edit.
Zelazny...well, my first-born son has the same name as the hero of Nine Princes in Amber...and he has quite a cool Multiverse, and an introduction to the Multiverse that I've been tempted to copy. Swords wielded by men of courage type fiction. The follow-up series was not nearly so impressive.
Howard...wrote a world based on his stuff which is quite arrogant considering I've never read one of his stories.
Burroughs...I had a few around the house, and I tried to read them, but they were dull.
Brooks...I've read a lot. I started with Sword of Shannarra way back when. He's a ripoff of Tolkien at first, and not nearly as good, but he finds ways to interject his own stuff into things, and thats frequently not an advantage. His best stuff is the Knight of the Word series. He's written A LOT of books.
Jordan...I only read one. It was long. Some of the characters seemed rather similar to each other. I believed him when he said he made his female characters by eavesdropping on his wife's rich friends. OK, he didn't say rich, but its true, I think. It was kinda good, but at the same time, I haven't gone out to read another one.
Clarke...blech. Rendevous with Rama was okay as a travelogue story. Childhood's End was just bleh. Clarke was an example of C.S. Lewis's point that there is a pendulum that swings from materialist to magician. Clarke was an atheist who came to believe in psi power. Don't get me started on some of his personal habits although they're revolting enough to, if the rumors are true, to make me want to kick his books into a sewer drain.

Ivanhoe, I enjoyed, mostly.

I had to do a book report on the original Pilgrim's Progress. Very painful.

Paley's...I haven't read it. Little opportunity for one.

William's....likewise.

Bradbury...I read a couple books....very much enjoyed Fahrenheit 451. That book got my respect.

I've read lots of Asimov (probably most of his fiction novels), and even some of his mystery novels. I think you would like his robot detective fiction, and 'I, Robot'. Its heavy on logic, and deducing who is the criminal and how they did it....someone was stabbed at an estate on a colony planet where the estates are fifty miles wide, and robot guards with superhuman strength keep everyone off their estates except for the owner. Now, given the Three Laws of Robotics, and these facts...how did so and so end up stabbed face to face when no one should have been able to get within ten miles of the victim? That type of stuff would appeal to you, I think.

Lewis...Narnia and one other.

I've read most of Cricton's books. Prey was pretty bad. I liked State of Fear which is him ripping on the global warmists complete with references to actual scientific papers. 'Next' was "Whoa! This guy is smart. He's got a good extrapolator of the future for a brain." and I wanted to write something in a similar style.

I very much enjoyed Alas Babylon, but I've never read On the Beach. It sounded, for a couple reasons, like a book I would not much enjoy.

As to your 'lacks', well, continue to be somewhat skeptical of their existence.

I thought being a conservative gave me an advantage in writing. Every other TV show has an Evil Businessman out to Conquer the World. I'm still waiting for the movie which shows a heroic '50's era gumshoe tracking down a slimy Soviet agent of influence in the movie industry, and then delivering the information to a well-placed congressman of conviction who can use the information properly. Being familar with modern tropes is not wholly an advantage.

I'd say Norton is rather exceptional in the SF field. Yes, there are other SF psi writers, but Norton probably wrote the greatest number of books in SF/Fantasy dealing with the topic. So again, yes, there are fewer examples to provide inspiration.

I think that part of the problem for me was trying to treat it as a large-scale extrapolation problem. But with Oak's Plus-Minus/Elite or Broad table the problem shrinks, and a few interesting questions arise. Add in the realization that I need to look at it in a different way, and I'm well on my way. This is one reason why I esteem extrapolation so highly....its very, very hard, and I rarely do it.

Oh, and thanks for giving me an opportunity to brag on all the books I've read. :)

Well, thanks for the suggestions. I have a couple problems with picking up books--I have no time and I have no money. Thus I tend to read books which either I already know I'm going to like because I've read something in the series already or which I get free. And I stick them in my bathroom door and get a few minutes a day to advance my reading. As it happens, my pastor just cleaned out his library, so I have several boxes of books, none of them fantasy or science fiction. I read my first Bonhoffer (his most famous on Discipleship) and have several more from him, and Bunyan's other allegory Holy War is currently holding my attention (I suppose that's like a fantasy novel; I thought seriously about trying to do Pilgrim's Progress as a world), and I've got stacks of stuff from Finney (I've read his biography but never anything by him), Moody, Billy Graham, Brother Andrew, Muller, Torrey, Campolo, Tozer--a lot of perspectives that will be worth reading and probably take years to get through. On the other hand, if somehow something landed in my lap that was fantasy or sci-fi I'd probably grab it sooner--I just did that review of the graphic novel Third Eye Shut because Jim Aubuchon sent me a copy. I try to vary what I read, but I also try to stick to something I've started until I've finished it.

--M. J. Young

I'm reading "An Archeologist Looks at the Gospels" by James L. Kelso and I just finished a week ago, "Creation's Tiny Mystery" by Gentry which is about Polonium Halos in pre-Cambrian granites.

You make me consider putting together a small box of Good SF/Fantasy.

Ever read...

1. The Deed of Paksennarion by Elizabeth Moon (Sheepfarmer's Daughter, can't remember #2's name, and Oath of Gold). A++. The last book has an astonishing scene that deals with forgiveness and suffering that is probably one of the greatest scenes ever written. Fantasy.

2. Across Realtime by Vernor Vinge (The Peace War, Unforgiven, and Marooned in Realtime) A++ except for the middle short story which is ok, but most interesting as an example of its story type of Libertarian short fiction. You'll understand the Singularity after this, and they're wildly cool as well.

3. Duke of Sumavia by Sara Wrench is a kingdom like Ruritania where a ruler makes a deal with all of the Powers to protect his dukedom. Now he has to deal with the Devil and the Elflady.

4. The Time Patrol by Pohl Anderson offers great historical fiction mixed with modern time traveller involved in hunting time criminals. I suspect its very well researched.

5. The Uplift War by David Brin. Intelligent species raise other species to intelligence all over the galaxy, and then the newly uplifted serves the other for a 100k years. Some species sit on top of pyramids of created species. And then Earth shows up in this very large and populated galaxy full of ancient powers and alliances. It has no patron, but it is uplifting dolphins and monkeys. This is a world where diplomacy is very important, and the fact that humans killed off 'chimpanzees' is a top secret because such an act being known would get Humans enslaved for a very long time.

6. Jack of Kinrowan by Charles De Lint. Urban fantasy. The Unseelie Court duels with the Seelie Court with the help of its Jack in the streets of Ottawa with no one normal the wiser.

7. Robots of Dawn by Isaac Asimov. A pair of detectives, one robot, one human, and a murder mystery on a colony planet. This might not be as good as some of them, but I think its the one I referred to before in my previous post.

8. Hunted by James Alan Gardner is part of a series that includes Expendable. Humans and other races are forbidden to kill in interstellar space. Most humans live very, very secure and prosperous lives. But some people need to go forth and do dangerous things. However its judged to be pschyologically harmful to send out people that look like normal people to face near certain death by exploring a planet. Now, its easy to fix say cleft palate with advanced super science,,,,but it won't get fixed because such a defect makes you look different. That means you 'get' to join what is informally called the Expendables.

This series has a lot of wildly cool things in it. Expendable is probably the best, and you might need to start with it. Unfortunately, Expendable has been expended to some used book store.

9. The Mote in God's Eye is by Jerry Pournelle and Larry Niven. Its an alien first contact story with some very well described aliens. Its extremely well thought out.

10. Lucifer's Hammer by #9 is a story about the Earth getting hit by a large rock, and the survivors trying to restart civilization. This might help you, along with Daybreak, with post-apocalyptic stuff.

Ever read...

1. The Deed of Paksennarion by Elizabeth Moon

I dont even recognize her name, sorry.

2. Across Realtime by Vernor Vinge

Only within the past year someone sent me his paper on the Singularity; it didn't exist when I was in school--Future Shock in operation. I read that, but nothing else by him.

3. Duke of Sumavia by Sara Wrench

I think I've encountered her name somewhere, but nothing she's written.

4. The Time Patrol by Pohl Anderson

I'm betting that I've read some of his stuff in Omni decades back. I am aware that Time Patrol is his big one, but I have not read that.

5. The Uplift War by David Brin

The name is familiar but I can't place it, probably never read anything by him.

6. Jack of Kinrowan by Charles De Lint

Again, I know the name of the author but do not recognize the title and can't name anything else by him.

7. Robots of Dawn by Isaac Asimov

The Robots and Foundation series probably as much as anything put Asimov on the map, but other than having seen the I Robot movie (which I thought was very good, but have not read the book) I have not had any exposure to it. As mentioned, I've read the one book, and probably a couple of his shorts.

8. Hunted by James Alan Gardner

This rings no bells.

9. The Mote in God's Eye is by Jerry Pournelle and Larry Niven

I've read a couple things by Niven--the co-authored (I do not remember with whom) anti-global warming thing which I think was called Fallen Angels and years ago a book of shorts that were not Ringworld stories. Pournelle I recognize, but unless it was an omni short I've not read him.10. Lucifer's Hammer by #9#9 is an author's name? I know I've not heard of him, although I think you've mentioned his book before.

So it looks like no on all counts.

--M. J. Young

Kewl. Most, maybe all of these books I've read more than once. I'll check on postage. If its okay, I'll need an address by Friday.

Eric

Hmmm--I usually have people send things to the Valdron address, but seeing as it's you I'm sending my home address via e-mail to your Yahoo box (it came up when I typed your name). It's actually not as reliable, but it's a lot faster, and for packages works well enough.

--M.

Lucifer's Hammer is by Jerry Pournelle and Larry Niven, I believe. Unfortunately, I started reading it, and its over six hundred rather detailed pages....so I sent you Daybreak 2250 A.D. instead which is not as good, but should be helpful.

Your books got sent today via book rate so that means they should arrive well before the next century.

Enjoy!

Eric

Let me say thank you while I can still find the thread; I'll keep an eye open for the books.

--M

Box arrived today. I am not opening it today because I want to be able to inventory the contents before others start grabbing them, so I know which ones I can complain about wanting returned. (I borrowed a book from a library recently and found it a month later in the basement; then I put it back on my bookshelf and it's gone again.)

Again, thanks.

--M

Box arrived today. I am not opening it today because I want to be able to inventory the contents before others start grabbing them, so I know which ones I can complain about wanting returned. (I borrowed a book from a library recently and found it a month later in the basement; then I put it back on my bookshelf and it's gone again.)

Again, thanks.

--M

Heh. My ladyfaire complains about me moving things around on her, but even I'm not that bad.

Um, you could Lojack your books....

Eric