TK pulse, as described in Da Rulez!!!

Single Telekinetic Pulse
Psi 4@1
This simplest of all telekinetic skills has innumerable applications. It has been used effectively to attempt to put missile attacks on course or conversely to knock them off course. It can be used to unsteady objects or characters, close doors, knock objects around, or do any of several things. Some application may be defined as individual skills. In essence, skill success means the target object has been pushed/pulled in the direction which the user desires.

This is a direct quote from Da Rulez!!! I understand a TK pulse to be a nanosecond burst of simple TK. I do not see how anyone could extrapolate that from this description of it. This make it sound like you're shooting an invisible ball of energy that can impact targets and knock them around. This makes no sense whatsoever.

How I would put it is in simple English.

"This is a nanosecond burst of simple TK. See also 4@2 simple TK."

As George Carlin said "Simple, honest, direct language."

A1Nut - Yeah, I interpreted TK Pulse that way, too. the "ball of knockaround." I maintain that Multiverser handling of TK in general continues to make no F'ing sense, but that's just me, and I don't want to get into it again.

This make it sound like you're shooting an invisible ball of energy that can impact targets and knock them around.

Yeah, I interpreted TK Pulse that way, too. the "ball of knockaround."

If you read the introduction to the P4@ skills, I don't understand how you can get that interpretation of the skill. I, too, think the TK Pulse description is heavy on examples and light on specifics, but any Psi skill which "creates an impact" is a P10@ force generative. I don't have the book with me, but as I recall, the opening paragraphs for both P4@ TKs and P10@ force generatives make that fact abundantly clear.

Yes, the description of the TK pulse is a bit vague. No, it could not be misinterpreted as a ball of energy, even as written, without significant auxiliary misunderstandings of other areas of the rules.

When I was in Pearl Harbor, I was TK pulsing the MP that arrested me. Later, Adam said that the MP told everyone that I kept hitting him. Since TK pulse has no point of impact, apparently even Adam didn't know exactly what it did.

The first time I TK pulsed the MP, Adam said "Your TK pulse bops him right between the eyes" So, Adam must have believed it had a point of impact too. From what I understand, he's been running Multiverser for years, and he doesn't even know. I'd say that means it's pretty vague and needs to be rewritten.

it could not be misinterpreted as a ball of energy, even as written, without significant auxiliary misunderstandings of other areas of the rules.

The problem is, understanding TK Pulse in exactly that way has CAUSED those auxiliary misunderstanding. This is why I say TK in general, and not just TK Pulse, makes no sense. This becomes even more clear in light of A1Nut's experience in Pearl Harbor.

I also submit that the most basic forms of telekinesis, to most people with RPG experience, are things like Mage Hand, which - while extremely limited by weight - move things around. I could go on a lengthy tirade including complicated formulas proving how it is impossible to move anything without generating a force, but I've had this fight before and it's just not worth it. Suffice it to say that it defies the laws of physics to move anything without a force (after all, if the total force = 0, what energyless, directionless vector are you moving your target with?).

Therefore I continue to agree with A1Nut (and apparently Adam) that TK Pulse IS in fact a ball of knockabout, and generates both a force and a point of impact. If I am ever in a position to referee for anyone, I will continue to go with that.
For the most part, I plan to give up using my own TK Pulse. That's largely out of objection to these continuing interpretive arguments. Basically until it works in a way that makes some logical sense and doesn't defy physics, I can't be bothered. A psionically generated force, I can deal with. You're converting biochemical energy into kinetic energy, generating a force of an appropriate direction and magnitude.
A psionically generated nothing that moves things without force, without contact, without apparently altering the universe in any way except that it moves something (by what mechanism is apparently completely unspecified)... No. That simply does not work.

To be a quick post, from every example, I have ever seen or read in game, from multiple players, it is described as a small force on an object, enough to move it with enough force to have a reaction. I stand by the effects I have described to A1, and especially with the description in the rules, it would take a great amount of effort for me to consider otherwise. If the answer was, the right-up was vague, then I stand by common sense in it's use.

Osevens, once MJ managed to explain to me exactly what TK pulse was and what it did (The nanosecond of simple TK) it became far more useful than just "ball of knockaround" You can use it to lift, push, pull, twist, turn, and I'm sure other things that I can't think of right now.

In my first world, where I learned it, MJ's explanation wasn't entirely clear either. He wrote Da Rulez!!! and I think this is something he seriously needs to address in future printings.

I also submit that the most basic forms of telekinesis, to most people with RPG experience, are things like Mage Hand, which - while extremely limited by weight - move things around.

That's magical TK. For magical TK, that's exactly how the simplest skills work. Psi skills were heavily influenced by things like the 2nd Edition AD&D Complete Psionics Handbook, wherein TK works pretty much like it does in Multiverser.

defies the laws of physics

Of course it does, it's Psi. If you did generate a force, where did the energy come from? Your "soul"? If you don't eat foods with enough soul-calories in them, will you run out of energy for psionics? If you're exploiting laws of physics, it's Tech (or maybe Bod). If you're ignoring them, it's Mag or Psi (or maybe Bod).

A psionically generated force, I can deal with. You're converting biochemical energy into kinetic energy, generating a force of an appropriate direction and magnitude.

No, you are not. Biochemical energy is in no way involved. This is done with the mind and soul, not with the body. Perhaps you burn some calories as a side effect, but that energy wastage is neither necessary to the use of the skill nor proportional to its results.

Or do you think Yoda ate a few thousand cheeseburgers before lifting Luke's X-wing out of the swamp?

Oh, and this sort of misunderstanding is exactly why I had the people in Men of Psience call the skill a TK Twitch.

Wodium - my understanding of this is simple. Things move because and only because they are acted upon by a force. You can say that force comes from anywhere you please. Conjured out of the ether. Converted from the chemical energy of my brain. Condensed out of a burst of cosmic radiation. I don't care. But the equations that make reality work must still be supplied. "An object at rest remains at rest until acted upon by an outside force." No force, no motion. No motion, no purpose. So if TK Pulse does not generate a force, it does not do anything, and therefore, basically, does not exist.

Now, if we go with mine, and A1Nut's, "ball of knockabout" interpretation, then the skill is fine. I have no problem with the mechanics of it. I have no problem with a TK skill that can target any object, no matter how large or small, so long as it targets the whole thing and acts only for an instant. I have no issue with that. It's purely the descriptive text that makes me basically hate this skill.

Osevens, this sounds to me like a semantics problem. I don't like the knockaround ball idea, because I think the nanosecond of simple TK is far more effective and useful. It's generating the force to move the object. However, it cannot break the object (under normal circumstances) and it's not really impacting the object. I think of it as having the ability to blink and move something. (In fact, I imagine that my character does blink when he does a TK pulse) I don't like how it's worded in the book, but I like the real use of it far better than the knockaround ball.

I've tried to come up with a Theory of Psi Power or two from things I've read and so on that would be good for a gm.

O7's biochemical energy is one of the most common explanations of psi, btw (used by many people who earn good money writing SF) even if it suffers from the flaw of insufficient energy as described by Wodium.

I'm considering the notion that the mind is a quantum holograph, and the brain is the receptor (thus brain damage, just like radio damage, impacts the playing of the song). The brain can contact the larger quantum holograph---the universe.

And the brain is a tool for causing Heisenberg Uncertainty to collapse one way or the other way. Cause enough microscale collapses to occur one way, and you end up with a macroscale event--a cup moving.

Clear as mud?

And yes, the brain is also a transmitter so a damaged brain causes feedback into the mind.

Edit - In my last post, by "misunderstanding," I was meant the original misunderstanding that both you and John shared: that the TK pulse was some kind of force-bolt that hit things.

I have no problem with a TK skill that can target any object, no matter how large or small, so long as it targets the whole thing and acts only for an instant.

My mistake. I thought you said that this made no sense ("this" being the above, rather than what I respond to below). And as I've said, I agree that the description in the book is vague, and in fact on the old forum I started a thread asking for detail and clarification. I might dig that up and link it here.

Things move because and only because they are acted upon by a force . . .the equations that make reality work must still be supplied. "An object at rest remains at rest until acted upon by an outside force.

I'm sure you've heard this before, but this a tech-biased way of looking at the situation. If, according to you, the fact that something is moving means that it has force simply as a matter of definitions, then yes, the objects affected by this skill have "force". The only possible problem with this is that if you think in this way, you may find that your skill does not behave in the way you expect it to. It follows psionic laws, not physical ones.

Just as fodder for additional thought: teleportation causes objects to change position. You would be hard pressed to convince me that teleportation exerts force upon the object teleported. Instead of imagining that TK is causing objects to move at a certain speed, perhaps it would help to conceptualize it as causing objects to repeatedly teleport infinitesimal distances a certain rate. (That's not what it's doing, but the results may line up better for certain applications.)

If you used TK pulse to flick a cue ball at someone's face, and it broke their nose, I'd say you're damn right it has force. I think the definition of force should be revised as well. I understand the difference, but I doubt I could explain it well enough for Osevens. Perhaps Scott would like to try? The force generative skills create an actual force, not just the force of motion.

The power itself has no force, it is instead transferring the force to the object.

You're describing the Stutter Warpdrive with your multi-teleporting.

Actually, John, that's something I have a problem with. I have difficulty conceptualizing a TK that can't break an object but can be used as a weapon. Let me think about it and maybe find some old links before I say anything more on the subject.

Just as fodder for additional thought: teleportation causes objects to change position. You would be hard pressed to convince me that teleportation exerts force upon the object teleported.

Actually, it does. See, the problem with teleportation is that it causes the object to move from one place to another very quickly. Some theories of teleportation - like that presented in Star Trek and in the works of Orson Scott Card - actually make perfect sense. ShadowRun actually goes one step further and says that the only reason magic cannot teleport (in that world) is because it requires far more energy than anything currently known could produce. Though it hardly matters for most in-game purposes, teleportation must be limited by the speed of light in order to make sense. You might be crossing the intervening space very quickly, but you're still crossing it. (Unless you go with Card's description, in which case you're technically outside of reality for a few moments, and then poof back in somewhere else.) You are, in effect, either converting matter into energy, or breaking that matter down and transmitting it, in which case you're exerting a force molecule by molecule, but you're still exerting one.

The force generative skills create an actual force, not just the force of motion.

I think I'm beginning to see the definition you guys are using of "force." You're saying a 10@ Force Generative indicates something that HAS FORCE itself - a telekinetic bullet, or Bigby's Crushing Hand, that sort of thing - rather than something that simply EXERTS a force, a work vector, on another object, am I right? So TK Pulse can EXERT a force - it can impart kinetic energy into an object - without HAVING a force itself. This, too, I would be content with. So long as we agree that the end result for the victim is, in fact, having some outside energy imparted upon it.

I have difficulty conceptualizing a TK that can't break an object but can be used as a weapon.

Given the realizations I've had in the above quotes, I have no problem with this. If TK Pulse is simply imparting kinetic energy, and not generating a TK bullet, and must target the whole of an object, then yes, I can see how it can move things, push people around, and even capsize ships, without "breaking" an object. It's not Bigby's Hand. It can't crush a vase directly, because it can't impart kinetic energy on the same object in two directions at once - doing so would simply cancel itself out. But you can flick the vase and crack someone over the head with it. You can "turn" a person so as to slam his face into a door. These things require only motion, not an independently extant telekinetic force-object like a TK bullet.

Osevens hit what I was going to say right between the eyes.

If I can flick the cue ball at 20 MPH with a TK pulse to send it into another ball on the pool table, why could I not flick it at 20 MPH at a person's face?

A1Nut - You CAN. That's the idea. If you want to break a pool ball, slam it into someone's face. If you want to break someone's face, TK Pulse a pool ball. You just can't crack the pool ball with just TK Pulse. You need someone's face! That's what's been missing all along!

It's not the TK pulse doing the breaking though. It's the force that the TK pulse applies to the object. The TK pulse did not generate any kind of force which hit or broke the vase, it just moved the vase, and let the floor do the rest.

The TK Pulse's impetus - which is, perhaps, a contextually better word than "force" - just moved it. Gravitational force dragging it into the floor did the breaking, yes. I think we've got it now.

That's fine, then. MJ's always been pretty adamant that you can use TK to hurt people with swords (hurt them with the swords, that is), and this works for that.

The other thing to keep in mind being that the impetus imparted to the object is not involved in the definition of the skill. Being able to move a very heavy object slowly with Simple TK does imply the ability to move a light object very quickly with the same skill. But I think we all knew that already.

Glad we cleared this up.

Edit: although to be clear, this is weapon-capable TK which CAN break an object so long as the TK itself is not what's doing the breaking (if that makes sense) - which is partly why I'm fine with it. If that weren't the case, the weapon applications would be extremely limited. I think there was an old thread about that, too.

I was composing a rather lengthy response to a lot of points made here, but

1. Scott covered most of what I was going to say and
2. the whole thing seems to have been resolved to my satisfaction.

In particular, Harry wrote

Given the realizations I've had in the above quotes, I have no problem with this. If TK Pulse is simply imparting kinetic energy, and not generating a TK bullet, and must target the whole of an object, then yes, I can see how it can move things, push people around, and even capsize ships, without "breaking" an object. It's not Bigby's Hand. It can't crush a vase directly, because it can't impart kinetic energy on the same object in two directions at once - doing so would simply cancel itself out. But you can flick the vase and crack someone over the head with it. You can "turn" a person so as to slam his face into a door. These things require only motion, not an independently extant telekinetic force-object like a TK bullet.

Yes, that's the ticket. I can't break the vase by hitting it with the TK pulse, but I can break the vase by knocking it over with the TK pulse such that it crashes into something else. I cannot tear an object apart, but I can get a flexible object to bend in non-damaging ways. Although no one has, as far as I recall, ever tried it, I cannot bend a steel bar with it, but if I move the steel bar very rapidly against a fence post, the fence post can bend it.

On a few other points, John wrote

From what I understand, he's [Adam] been running Multiverser for years, and he doesn't even know.

Shows how little you understand. As far as I recall, you are the first and only person Adam has ever run in a Multiverser game. He ran innumberable people in Hackmaster, and probably in other games as well, but if he's ever run any other Multiverser game, I am not aware of it. (I might have forgotten, but I'm trying to recall and can't.)

As far as Adam's statement that it hit the target right between the eyes, I don't have so much trouble with that. Since a TK pulse can twist a missle off course or upset the balance of a balancing rock or flick a penny across the table, it can certainly feel like it pushed a man's head backward, and it can even more certainly look like that to someone who is not the person having the experience. John saw that the man's head went backwards as if he had been hit between the eyes. It would not have caused a bruise (which he would not at that point have seen anyway) because it is not a force object, but it would have knocked his head backwards and taken him with it.

I think that covers everything.

--M. J. Young

The correct statement I have seen Multiverser run for years, and played for years. I ran a couple people in RPOL. I would also bring to people's attention, when he smacked the guys head into the steering wheel with great force, it was a botch that caused that.

Adam

I apologize--I am not certain whether I was ever aware that you ran games at RPOL, and I did not mean to minimize your experience with the game. John had based part of his argument on his assumption that you had years of experience as a Multiverser referee; I intended only to indicate that you have very limited experience as a Multiverser referee, and thus that he was basing his argument on a wrong assumption.

Your familiarity with the game as a player is not in question; you are one of the more experienced players at my tables.

--M. J. Young