If I say that I want men in the tools department and women in the lingerie department, that might be discriminatory--but it might not be, if I can show that people who buy tools are more likely to trust the advice of a man on the subject, and people who buy lingerie are more likely to trust the advice of a woman there.
And that's because of gender discrimination. My sister took diesel mechanics in high school. She has the equivalent of an Associates degree in diesel mechanics. (The same kind of degree I have in Electronics, same school, actually) She was the first girl in the history of the school to graduate from that program. Only one other had even tried, and she got pregnant and dropped out of school. My sister got a write up in the yearbook about it.
Looking at my sister, you would never guess it, but the girl knows engines. She used to work repairing lawnmowers. She decided she didn't like it. Why would the fact that she is a very beautiful woman discourage someone believing her knowledge? (Hey, if I can't say that my sister is beautiful, no one can.)
And yes, we touched on gender discrimination, but I thought it could be interesting to go into it some more.
EDIT: My sister just told me that she was not the first girl to graduate from that program. I don't know why I keep thinking that. She was, however, the first girl during that teacher's reign, and the teacher had been there for 20 years or more.
(Doing Therapy)
Two Posts
And as far as men working in a lingerie store, unless part of the job was that they model the lingerie, I see nothing wrong with that. I don't know about you, but if I was shopping for lingerie for my wife or girlfriend, I'd want the opinion of another man. It would make me feel more comfortable. (If you don't know why, then you've obviously never tried buying lingerie for your girlfriend)
That's something I thought was interesting.
(Doing Therapy)
Multiple Postings
I was about to post something incredibly stupid and off topic here.
I realized it and stopped myself.
The therapy is working.
(Doing Therapy)
If I say that I want men in the tools department and women in the lingerie department, that might be discriminatory--but it might not be, if I can show that people who buy tools are more likely to trust the advice of a man on the subject, and people who buy lingerie are more likely to trust the advice of a woman there.And that's because of gender discrimination.
Ah, but it is not my gender discrimination.
Why do clothing designers hire svelt beautiful women to model their women's clothing, instead of ugly ones? Isn't that discrimination? Of course it is--but not on the part of the clothing designers. The clothing designers are recognizing that buyers and consumers are more impressed by clothing when it is shown on beautiful people. The designers and marketers thus are using our prejudices against us by hiring the beautiful people to model the clothing. We are discriminating; we are prejudicial. The person doing the hiring can hire based on our discrimination because he is doing so based not on his prejudices but on demonstrable business advantage.
The networks can hire good-looking news anchors because they can demonstrate that more people will watch good-looking people read the news than will watch ugly intelligent ones do so.
There is no reason why I can't act based on the prejudices of my target market; I just can't act based on my own prejudices.
And as far as men working in a lingerie store, unless part of the job was that they model the lingerie, I see nothing wrong with that. I don't know about you, but if I was shopping for lingerie for my wife or girlfriend, I'd want the opinion of another man. It would make me feel more comfortable.
Here, though, you are not addressing the argument I am making.
My point was never that women make better lingerie department sales people than men. My point was if the store can show a reasonable basis for believing that they do, the store can hire women for those jobs without discriminating.
I have no idea whether most people are more comfortable buying women's lingerie from male or female sales help, nor even whether today most people are more comfortable taking tool and hardware advice from men than from women. Personally I tend to think that whoever was hired for the job probably knows more than I about it, and knowledge is more important than gender.
If I want to know what a guy would like to see my wife wearing, a guy's opinion would be worth something in the lingerie department. I probably don't want to know that. I probably want to know what a woman like my wife would like to receive and would be likely to wear. I don't think a guy can tell me that. I mean, I don't think I'd ask a female clerk whether she thinks I would find a G string comfortable. I don't think that I would ask a male clerk what bras are most comfortable. But I don't know who would make a better sales clerk for any department--I only said that if the store had a reasonable basis for hiring men for one department and women for the other, and that basis had to do with the perceptions of customers as to the capability of the sales staff, it would not be illegal discriminatory practice to do so.
--M. J. Young
MJ, you've obviously never bought a woman lingerie. Telling an incredibly gorgeous blond that you can't stop imagining IN the lingerie what you want to get for your girlfriend is a very different thing from asking another man's opinion. That's "Guy Talk" ya know? Perhaps I am the one employing gender discrimination, but I thought it was something interesting nonetheless.
(Doing Therapy)
Here's a completely unfair form of age discrimination. When you're 12 years old, you have to pay the adult price to get into a movie, but you can only see PG rated movies. If you're paying the adult price, shouldn't you be allowed to get into adult movies? (PG-13, R, NC-17) So, adult price should start at 17, when you are able to do that.
Two Posts
Ya know, just an aside about Plunger, my 2 year old neighbor. I said that when she smiled, I wished I had a camera. I don't anymore. It was dark, and a flash would have captured the smile, but it probably would have scared the living daylights out of her too. What does a 2 year old do when she gets the living daylights scared out of her? That would certainly have ruined the smile.
Also, I am the only person in the entire world who saw her smile that time. Her parents were talking to each other. They've certainly seen her smile, but I was the only person in the world who got to see that particular smile.
I consider that a gift from God.
(Doing Therapy)
Ya know, here's something I thought was kind of interesting about slavery.
When the African slaves came to the US, they were, for the most part, Muslims who followed Allah. When brought to the US, they started to embrace Christianity. As more and more slaves embraced Christianity, they finally became free.
The Civil Rights Movement, when blacks got their civil rights, and true freedom. The movement was led by a Christian reverend, Dr. Martin Luther King. As blacks embraced Christianity, they received their freedom. The Bible does say "The Truth will set you free."
Whether the two really have anything to do with each other or not is a debate I'd rather not get into, but I thought it was something interesting nonetheless.
Multiple Posts
You wanna know about a completely unique form of prejudice? How about prejudice of your own future? Prejudice means Pre-Judging. Pre-Judging your own future. My father died of a heart attack when he was 32 years old. That's how old I just turned. He died 3 months and 17 days (about) after his 32nd birthday. He had an inherited heart condition. So, that means that my Estimated Date of Death would be about July 1 of this year!!!! My father was in perfect health, aside from being a smoker, and the heart condition killed him. There's a high probability that I inherited it from him. I am in the worst shape of my life, AND a heavy smoker of a couple of things.... If I make it to see Independence Day, I will be quite surprised.
(Doing Therapy)
Mistake, sorry.
(Doing Therapy)
Ya know, I just realized something. The above post was an imagined scenario where my gay neighbor did call 911 that day. I thought it was really funny, but after posting, decided it was probably not really relevant to anything. A year and a half ago, this probably would have quickly turned into one of those 25 post rants that I would go on. Therapy is working..... (Sorry, it's probably not as poignant to all of you)
(Doing Therapy)
You know, every single time I was about to respond to a posting while reading through this, MJ answered with an argument not only akin to what I was thinking, but already fully fleshed out. I feel a fool. Ah well, it's my problem for not getting here months ago. I'll read through again and see what else I can add.
"If I am mistaken, I'm still not worried. I figure I'm going to die when God agrees that I'm no longer needed here, and I'll be forced to live until then."
"My thoughts exactly. I'll live until God decides that I am no longer needed. Then it's over."
Fascinating. I've always been curious about how people who believe in some kind of divine power think. It seems like they are content to accept what life throws their way, meaning, of course, less time is spent worrying. I, myself, believe in a simple idea-if there is a supernatural power interested in our world, go right ahead. Do what you want. If some kind of God made us, I say thanks, but I won't pay obeisance, only respect. After all, any entity that gave us these powers of thought wanted us to have them, so why should we prostrate ourselves?
More thoughts forthcoming, hopefully more on topic.
Don't sweat it. By your standard, almost everyone else is a fool, too.
(That's one reason you don't see many posts by me in here. I knew that if I just waited a day . . .)
...by my standard, almost everyone else is a fool? what? I don't have the easiest time understanding people, I'm a math and science and critical thinking guy. The meanings I can glean from that are: You read my post in the character generation thread, and that was a reference to that, OR maybe you think I am self-centered or something and full of myself, OR maybe something else I couldn't tell. Would you be more specific, please?
"Yeah, my gay neighbor, on the last day I talked to him, kept saying "My father used to beat me....." I guess he was afraid I was going to hit him. I remember thinking "Well, if you were acting like this, did it ever occur to you that maybe you deserved to get beaten by your father?"
The thing was that he never tried to get to know me. He just assumed that I was dangerous and needed to be locked up. Never asked me anything about it. "
It is kind of sad to think that there are still people in the world like that these days. Hey, is there a private message function on this board? If you need to talk to someone, John, you can talk to me. I grew up in a family with a history of assorted mental disorders, and I understand a little about what you must be going through. Better than I understand a lot of other social issues, heh.
Don't need anybody to talk to, but I'm always open to making new friends. If you want to contact me, A1nut@insight.rr.com, put in the subject "Brock from Gaming Outpost" or something, so I know who you are.
Sorry, I should have quoted.
You know, every single time I was about to respond to a posting while reading through this, MJ answered with an argument not only akin to what I was thinking, but already fully fleshed out. I feel a fool.
I meant that MJ got in the 98th percentile on his LSAT, and most everyone else didn't. Nothing more.
Also, when I responded, you post ended with "what else I can add"; my response looked more natural back then.
(A note on the convention here: although a lot of forums frown on "double posting", we generally prefer making multiple posts to editing in large amounts of text after more than a few minutes. This arose from the game threads, when often MJ would have already read a player's post and be composing the response when the player would edit in eighteen new actions which MJ would never see.)
OK, and speaking of the SAT and national exams, I still need to take the SAT, time is kind of running short lol. I want to know how that stacks up...I'm going to go research that!
Oh, and about MJ's posts-I get the feeling that MJ puts a lot of time and effort into every post, even insofar as doing background research for unfamiliar topics. As for feeling a fool, that was not well explained in retrospect. I meant that he had already pointed out everything I was thinking PLUS additional things I probably would have thought of given ample time to consider, but I have no way to tell how long he spent thinking about his answer, so it seems instant, causing me to irrationally feel foolish. I knew at the time of the post that it was irrational. It was somewhat joking that I mentioned it at all.
I got the joking aspect; my reply was meant in the same vein.
And you probably knew this, but LSAT wasn't a typo; it's the one they give to prospective law students, which narrows the pool of test-takers, thus making his best-of-a-random-fifty score more impressive.
Yes, I knew about the LSAT. It is very impressive. I only ever took two different tests, the WASL (Washington Assessment of Student Learning) on which I scored nearly perfect on all aspects in the high school test, perfect on the junior high, and I can't remember the Elementary. I also took an IQ test in junior high that I was *told* by the school is state certified, because they wanted to place me in high school preparation classes, which they did. Basically, I was in Algebra and Biology a year early, not that it made a difference what with the school records being misplaced and me retaking them. Plus, I got "Freshman Fever" and didn't apply myself at all, failing some classes early on in HS. I have to take an extra high school year for want of attendance and such.
In other words, I neatly fit the surface mold of the "brilliant, absent-minded underachiever more interested in personal research" than school. I also haven't had the spare funds with which to take the ordinary SAT. I confess to curiosity about the LSAT-I'll be researching more. I'll Check this thread in an hour.
"Giftedness may become noticeable in individuals at different points of development. While early development (i.e. speaking or reading at a very young age) usually comes with giftedness, it is not a determinant of giftedness. The preschool years are when most gifted children begin to show the distinctive characteristics mentioned above. As the child becomes older, classes that are 'too easy' and emotional issues may slow or obstruct the rate of intellectual development."
a bit of my research on the subject that "describes me to a 'T'"
btw, how do I italicize on this board?
"em" (for "emphasis"), in angle brackets instead of quotes. There's a thread - Coding On This Board.
OK, thanks, I bookmarked that page so I won't lose it.
I hate doing this.I meant that MJ got in the 98th percentile on his LSAT, and most everyone else didn't.
Actually, it was 99.8th percentile on the LSAT. It was 99th on the two Mensa qualifying tests. The test scores are here; if memory serves, the GRE verbal score was 95th percentile and the numerical 97th, but it's been a lot of years and for some reason I did not write that down.
I do put time into researching things I do not know when they arise in the forum game. It's a luxury of this particular format, but also a burden. As for having thought things through, I generally think and write on the fly--but I've had a lot of years to think through things, so you shouldn't be surprised if an old guy like me has already considered problems a youth such as yourself is only just encountering.
Now, put this in the for-what-it's-worth department: I understood that Brock meant that in reading through this thread he always found that I had already said what he would have said, only better. I've had that happen to me sometimes--frequently on The Forge boards, where there are a lot of excellent independent game designers and a lot of game design "students", but occasionally here from my players. I also got it when Scott answered--the point was, if you're going to consider yourself a fool because someone else beat you to posting what you were thinking and said it better, then everyone else is going to have to consider himself a fool as well. Don't measure yourself by me, and I won't measure myself by you, because we'll both be disappointed.
In fact, I just wrote something about that in comments on the recent time travel article Sergiy Koshkin posted on the articles side of the site: everyone thinks that the things he does easily are easy things to do, and the things with which he struggles are difficult, and thus everyone is more impressed by people who can do what he cannot, and less impressed by what he himself can do. I encourage you to recognize within yourself your own abilities. Believe it or not, I did not know that I had above average intelligence until I was in my late twenties. I tell people that the only person who ever really told me I was smart was my mother, and she also told me I was handsome, so I knew she was lying.
And the Coding On This Board thread is a sticky on the front page of the forum, so you probably don't need to bookmark it....
--M. J. Young
actually, I was more lamenting the fact that I didn't get here in time to talk about it, and regretful that I the topic was pretty much closed with everything I would have said, said. the feeling a fool bit was a bit of a joke. Anyway, what I found interesting is the correlation between my thoughts and yours, MJ. I am rather impressed, however, that you can reason out all that on the fly. It would take me some background research and time, as it is one of the issues I have devoted no real time to studying. Bit of a rude question, in some circles, but, er...How old are you?
Age is often wisdom, after all :P
MJ just celebrated his 54th birthday. The thread "How's the birthday boy" was dedicated to his birthday a few days ago.
Ya know, my gay neighbor was afraid of me because of the psychotic fit that he heard. The funny thing of it though is that, the psychotic fit that he heard was the last fit of that magnitude which I have EVER had. He was assuming I was dangerous because of something he would have never heard if he had moved in 2 months later. Ain't it funny? He thinks I'm dangerous because he heard the last psychotic fit that I have ever had in my entire life.
Hmm, yes I did know, I read it in some other thread. Didn't you say somewhere that you repeat things a lot because of your therapy? I have noticed you do that a lot (no, I am not saying it's a bad thing, just noting it).
Yeah, I do that. I often repeat the same sentence word for word in a conversation, and half the time, I don't even realize I'm doing it unless the person points it out to me. Yeah, I do that. I often repeat the same sentence word for word in a conversation, and half the time, I don't even realize I'm doing it unless the person points it out to me.
(That was done on purpose, of course, but that's the way I do it in a spoken conversation)
What irks me about my neighbor's reaction though was not that he flipped out over my last psychotic fit, but that if he had let me explain it to him, he would have seen that there was nothing to fear.
I punched the front door 4 or 5 times and screamed "S-T-O-P I-T J-O-H-N. S-T-O-P I-T J-O-H-N." (And yes, spelling) This was not an act of violence or rage, it was a calming exercise. The jolt of pain from hitting the door slows down the episode, and please note what I was spelling. STOP IT JOHN!!!!! It was an exercise to stop the episode. Part of my therapy, actually. I asked him if he wanted to hear about the therapy (thus, an explanation of what had just happened) and he said "Not really Mate, I'm not really a doctor." However, not 3 weeks later, he had no problem proclaiming "I think you're DANGEROUS!!!!!" Whoa, wait a minute, I thought you weren't a doctor......
He assumed it was something dangerous, after being adamant that he hated prejudice. If he had let me explain this to him, he would have seen that there was nothing to fear from me.
well, it is just too bad I am not your neighbor. I would have let you explain. :D
Ya know, I just had a thought that sounded really funny to me. As furious as he was getting, I'm certain I could have verbally provoked my gay neighbor into attacking me. Wouldn't that be funny? He calls in a report of a dangerous crazy person, and is arrested AS the dangerous crazy person, when he is discovered beating up a crouching, defenseless victim who is only covering his head with his hands. In that instance, I wouldn't even try to fight back, unless it got really out of hand. The police that he himself called would find him beating me up. He would get arrested, I'd press charges, and he would spend the next couple of years in a psychiatric care ward for violent tendencies, because he called in a report of a dangerous crazy person, and then became one himself.
I find that insanely, if morbidly, funny.
(Doing Therapy)
Ya know something though? I lived in that apartment for just over 5 years. Two sheets of drywall, that's all that separated the apartments. Two neighbors, one on each side. For three years, I had been having psychotic episodes which lasted for hours at a time. Hours on end of screaming obscenities at the top of my lungs. One neighbor lived there for three and a half years, and never said a word to me or to the rental office about it. I know I'll always wonder, but I don't think I would ever ask him..... On the other side, out of probably 4 sets of neighbors, only two of them got any kind of explanation for it, and I was good friends with both of them. No one ever said a word to the rental office about it.
Once I started getting it under control, the last neighbor to hear the full-blown fits commented to me that it was much better. After that, most of my neighbors were given a warning that the fits happened, and I could get them under control pretty quickly. Again, no one told the rental office. With most neighbors, it wasn't even an issue.
My point is, it was hardly the first time I had wailed the door and screamed loudly......
The gay neighbor got a full explanation, more information than any other neighbor had ever gotten. He had personal reasons NOT to be prejudiced. He was even told about the therapy, although not how it worked. The fit that he freaked out about was, as I told him, "The worst fit I've had in about two months."
He was the one who freaked out. The most information, the most reason to NOT be prejudiced. The irony in that just astounds me.
(Doing Therapy)
I hope this reads as funny to all of you. In order to "hear' it correctly, you have to imagine the gay neighbor's British accent. A gay man with a British accent. It's a lot funnier that way.
Gay neighbor calls 911.
Gay neighbor: (Almost hysterical) "I'm being confronted by a DANGEROUS CRAZY PERSON!!!"
Me (Picked up by his phone, heard and recorded by the 911 operator) "Yeah, there's a dangerous crazy person here alright......" (And it's DRIPPING with sarcasm.....)
Gay neighbor (Prissy, hysterical) "SHUT UP JOHN!!!!! Just wait until they get here.."
I go inside to get cigarettes and clean up the place until the police arrive. Gay neighbor ultimately gets arrested.
I hope it reads as funny to all of you.
(Doing Therapy)
Ya know, here's something I was thinking about. If the verser were black, and they had 3@10 charisma and 3@10 persuasion, but they landed in the middle of a KKK rally, those 3@10 scores wouldn't do him a damn bit of good. He's not going to talk his way out of it. Of course, if the verser were in the verse long enough to get those scores, they could probably beat the entire KKK senseless with their bare hands, but it was just something I was thinking about.
(Morning After Therapy)
On the contrary, I think he could quite easily talk his way out of it with those scores. Those scores are so high it's almost like your very voice has hypnotic power. He would probably walk out of there with all of their wallets, their wives' cell phone numbers, and the kitchen sink. :)
Did you even read what I wrote? A black man in the middle of a KKK rally??????? I don't think he would be walking away from that.
No, Brock is right. You started by giving the man the charisma and persuasion of God. This is the guy who makes the most eloquent orators look stumble-tongued, the best-dressed models shabby, the greatest actors hacks. This is the guy who will be able to persuade the KKK members that they are their own problem, that it is white people like them who are ruining society, and that to save the world they need to surrender their power to the more intelligent and more capable Negro race.
I might penalize him a few points for circumstances, but he's not only walking out of this alive, he's walking out a winner.
--M. J. Young
Ya know, I was telling you about the gay neighbor. I didn't say much about the black neighbor on the other side.
This is something maybe someone could explain to me. Chris Rock, a black stand up comedian and noted authority on racism, did a stand up routing entitled "I love black people, but I hate N----rs." I was quoting it verbatim and doing a fairly decent Chris Rock impression, or so I thought. I (white) was telling a black neighbor about it. Somehow he got it into my head that I called him a n----r.
I was wondering, does anyone have any idea why a person would take racial offense to a white person quoting a black comedian about racism? They say that white people are not allowed to use that word at all. However, I was quoting verbatim a black person. I don't have permission to say it, but Chris Rock certainly does. I would have thought it would be taken as an act of honor, quoting Chris Rock on that topic.
Thoughts?
(Doing Therapy)
Just an aside, if you can find that stand up routine, listen to it. It's got really good thoughts on racism. It pretty much sums up my feelings on the topic.
Two Posts
It just occurred to me a type of prejudice that we are all guilty of.
I know a guy who is very polite and well-mannered (Well, most of the time). He is an avid gamer, member of a Star Trek fan club, and loves Disney cartoons.
I just know someone has a mental image of a skinny guy with glasses and a pocket protector. (Laughing)
He's also a member of the Hell's Angels motorcycle club and a decorated, combat veteran of the Gulf War. In other words, about as far as he could get from the mental image I just know someone thought of. (Laughing)
Looking at him, you'd think he was about to rob, pillage, and rape. But he's actually one of the nicest guys you'd ever meet. (Most of the time, anyway.....) I just thought that was interesting, and reveals a lot about prejudice.
(Doing Therapy)