Ya know what? The orcs are not humans. They're orcs. That settles it right there, I would think.
Yes JohnA1nut, but does that make them animals or people/persons? Or maybe demons or evil spirits in material form. (Which some mythologies of the fey seem to suggest. Familiar Spirits and housegods etc.)
John, that does not really answer the question, because the question is not really whether orcs are "human" in exactly the same sense that humans are, but whether they are "people" in the same sense that humans are, which is also the same sense that elves and dwarfs are. Elves are not humans, they're elves; Dwarfs are not human, they're dwarfs. Yet elves, dwarfs, and humans are all "civilized people", and, by some unexpressed definition, orcs are not. Nikolaj wants to say that orcs are people, too. To do so, he must either
- Get the unexpressed definition expressed in specific terms and show that under those terms orcs are included; or
- Change the unexpressed definition such that it also covers orcs.
Incidentally, no one has ever succeeded in doing that in this scenario, although I can't say that anyone took it as his genuine objective. I don't know that Nikolaj will attempt it, and I don't know how it will play out if he does--but that's why it's an interesting world, isn't it?
--M. J. Young
Yeah MJ, I know exactly what you're talking about. Two hundred years ago, they said "They're not people, they're Negroes" and so slavery happened. 70 years ago, they said "They're not people, they're Jews" and we had the Holocaust. Today, it's "They're not people, they're fetuses" and we have abortions.
By a loose definition, fire could be considered to be a living organism. It grows, eats fuel, and is capable of reproducing. Is fire alive? Are orcs people? What defines people? I guess that's the whole point we're trying to establish, isn't it?
Pretty much.
Also today it's "they're not people, they're just kids," and we have... well... a whole host of things I am morally offended by, but not relevant to this discussion. You have my email if you want to go there.
And I've heard the fire thing argued before.
Basically, go watch an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation entitled "The Measure of a Man," in which Data proves he is alive. If you think your orcs could pass that trial... go right ahead.
And I've heard the fire thing argued before.
Basically, go watch an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation entitled "The Measure of a Man," in which Data proves he is alive.
Yeah, that's actually where it came from.
Is that the one where he's on trial, Picard is defending him and Riker has been ordered to prosecute, and some woman in the Adjudant General's office who knows Picard has to make the decision, because some scientist thinks that if he can disassemble Data he can duplicate the positronic brain and make more of him?
Or is it a different episode you have in mind?
--M. J. Young
Yeah, I think that's it.
On the fire thing: It doesn't maintain homeostasis, therefore it is not alive. Whee, definitions. It's also not made up of cells, which due to the definition of cells means it's not alive. And it's not made up of cells because you can produce fire from a match and a rock, neither of which is alive or contain cells, and since cells come from other cells with very very rare exceptions involving self-replicating molecules and blind luck fire cannot contain cells.
As for the orcs issue, you could go for tool making using tools. Unless there is a tool-using race that you do not consider to be human in the more important and yet less definable sense, it's pretty solid, though not mind-changing by itself. However, since it's a clear point of distinction from everything else and a clear unity with the elves, dwarves, and humans it can then be effectively followed up using differences between the elves, dwarves, humans, and subcultures thereof to show that the orcs are about as similar to them as they are to each other.
Also, for the narrow subsection of living sentients that qualify as human and not SHODAN's cyborgs, you can add as many cybernetic parts as you want as long as you don't effect the parts of the brain responsible for thought or emotion directly before you actually get your mind greatly distorted by it.
Cyberpsychosis from Shadowrun is purely a game balance thing. Getting titanium on your bones is going to effect your mind percisely as much as getting plastic on them, even if you buy either of those effecting it at all. Plus, in Shadowrun you can seriously trade cost for cyberpsychosis effects. There's even a scale for cyberware and a ratio for converting to bioware which can then trade costing even more for less in the way of essence drain.
JTM - game balance or not, it's still an interesting though. The more machines you have in you, the more you think like a machine. It seems pretty basic to me. Just look at the Borg, while we're using Star Trek for our examples (and really, up until DS9, you're on pretty good footing there - TNG had a lot of really deep stories like that).
As for the 'is it alive' thing... I think the thing that defines 'sapient' in the sense that we're looking for it is... how can I say this... The capacity for abstract thought? The capacity for the restraint of blind instinct?
That's really what defines us, after all. My cat is currently curled up on my feet because it's night so he should be sleeping, my feet are warm, and he has some affection for me. He's following his instincts. I am currently awake, typing this when I should be sleeping for work tomorrow, because I hate my job and would rather be typing. Instinct says sleep, I choose to type, even though my bed is every bit as warm as my cat's current choice of perch.
Other animals are much the same. A shark will eat you because he's hungry and you're made of meat, even though you're not as tasty as a nice fat seal and a bit on the bony side. Termites build giant mounds because they're instinctively supposed to, not because the entire species has a conscious fetish for architecture.
I think it is the capacity to act on something other than instinct, coupled with at least a basic sense of self-awareness (your dog may be pretty bright, but that mangy thing in the mirror has nothing to do with him), that is what we're grasping at.
Just an aside about cybernetics. Technically speaking, everyone here is a cyborg. Eyeglasses, artificial amplification of eyesight. Writing something down. Artificial memory enhancement. Fillings in your teeth, artificial reconstruction of a natural element. Even wearing clothing. Artificial enhancement to withstand extreme temperatures.
I have a titanium plate in my left leg. I still feel human, although I have had some trouble going through metal detectors.
O.K., what about viruses and prions? Are they not life, or are they made of cells, or is there something else that matters here?It's also not made up of cells, which due to the definition of cells means it's not alive.
--M. J. Young
Viruses are generally not considered life. They don't move under their own power, they don't actually reproduce, just get made by cells they infect, and generally don't do anything different from any other particle of dust or suchlike other than replace the DNA of cells they happen to contact. Same with prions.
@johnosevens
See, that seems to make sense on the surface, but machines that don't replace brain tissue aren't effecting the parts that handle reflexes or thinking except by modifying the inputs, unless they're like wired reflexes and affect hormone levels and neurotransmitters in general. Cybernetics will alter your perception of things, but only to an extent, and not usually a great one unless they're early in human sense imitation development. Ones that don't even try will have minimal effect on your humanity, being as it is basically a robot arm you control with the motor control center of your brain. It'd be unsettling, but not really any different than using a neural interface with just about anything else.