I understand that MJ. I really do. I'm just trying to get an idea for my refereeing style. They say that you should always learn from the mistakes of others, because you will never live long enough to make them all yourself.
As I have said several times, THAT PARTICULAR EVENT was one that I felt very strongly about not getting involved in. What could you have learned about the player then? It provides the same amount of information as the MP, and in no way forces them into the story. I just think that giving more information to the players might be a better way to go. I'm trying to get an idea of my refereeing style. Let me say "Forced" It's pretty much semantics at this point. We're never going to see eye to eye on it, so why argue? I'm just trying to get an idea of how I would have handled that as a referee. Trying to get a feel for my style.
(Not Yelling, just trying to be completely clear)
I'm starting to ramble. Realizing this is a good thing.
(Doing Therapy)
Two Posts
The other thing MJ is that the announcement would open up more doors for different story lines. Think about it, if the player has advanced warning, tries to run, fights the MPs, etc, and makes a clean escape, now the story is the government tracking the verser as a spy. Can you imagine the implications after the place was attacked? The verser would be a huge person of interest.
I'm not trying to contradict you. I'm just thinking that the MP kind of shows a lack of imagination. How far would the verser go to NOT get involved? How long could they evade pursuit? Perhaps a certain MP is obsessed with and actively hunting the verser, because his brother was killed in the attack. All kinds of stories could come of it.
I think more people would run from an announcement than would try to run from or kill a police officer. That's kind of known. The opener of the MP forces those of us that wouldn't kill in cold blood, but would run if we knew where we were. I'm sure more people are like that than not. The MP shows lack of imagination, by cutting out those people. Not giving them their "Moment of glory."
I'm not contradicting you in the slightest. I'm just thinking that in this particular case, the announcement would be better. Probably in a lot of other cases. The MP gives the same information, but with some force. The announcement doesn't.
(Doing Therapy)
Three posts, and no more
And just because I know someone is secretly thinking this: "I've been doing RPG's all my life, what does John know about them?" Just because you've been doing something the same way all of your life doesn't mean you're doing it right, or you couldn't possibly be doing it better.
You want to know something MJ? I just remembered something my friend Rob said. (Rob is that big guy you met when you came to Columbus to meet me) He was in the navy, he was stationed at Pearl Harbor, and he was an MP as well. I just remembered something he told me. He said that his sidearm was NEVER LOADED!!!! He had 2 magazines for it, but the gun itself was completely empty!!!!!!! I'm not making that up. I don't recall the reason for that, but he said that was the policy. In other words, I should have ran. The MP couldn't have shot me even if he had wanted to. That is, if Adam really knows as much about Pearl Harbor as he thinks he does.
Ah, but was that the policy in Pearl Harbor prior to World War II? I don't have an answer to that, but I know that the practice of carrying unloaded weapons is rather common in the military today, and was less so in the past.
--M. J. Young
Well, it wouldn't really matter. If Adam said the gun was loaded, then it was loaded. It was just something I found very funny when I thought about it.
Mistake.
What I do not now, nor will I EVER understand is how any thinking, rational person with a modicum of intellect can POSSIBLY say that having an MP come up out of nowhere and pull a gun on you is NOT forcing you into the story. In what way was I NOT forced? Yes, I could get shot, but who wants to get shot? Verser or not, no one WANTS to get shot. That's like saying you aren't forced to eat food, because you could slowly starve to death.
It's mostly a rhetorical question, but I don't get how any thinking, rational person can possibly say that I was NOT forced.
I'll take your word for it.
Yeah Scott, you probably wonder how any thinking, rational person (IE ME) can say that I WAS forced into the story....
Like I said, it was mostly a rhetorical question, so no need to go over it again MJ. It's just something I don't now nor will I ever understand. Just give me the occasional moment of pique every now and then.
Multiple Posts
Ya know what? I've been thinking about it for the past 3 hours, and I think I do now see how a thinking, rational person with a modicum of intellect could say I wasn't forced. Ya know why? I'll tell you right now, that was the LAST time my character will get arrested. Imagine it if you will. If I am this mad about it, how much more so is my character? He was the one who was in the jeep crash. He's furious over it. He is hoping that Germany DID take over that world because of his actions. My character on my second verse was forced, because he wasn't willing to do what he is now willing to do. He will NEVER be forced like that again. My character on his second verse was forced. My character now.... Well, let's just say I feel very sorry for the cop that tries to arrest him now.
So, in closing, yes, I was forced into the story, because I wasn't willing to do what I had to do to get UNforced. Now I am.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you could spend one hour inside my head, you would be AMAZED at the restraint I've shown over this. I think I really do get it now.
Three Posts, and it's the last
I still say the opener of the PA system announcement would be better though. Say whatever you want about it giving too much information too quickly. The ONLY difference I see in that and the MP is that the player has a better chance to run. Besides, things like that are BOUND to happen every once in a while. In an infinite Multiverse, you would EVENTUALLY land on a world where you landed right in front of a sign that said "Pearl Harbor Naval Base, December 5, 1941." That HAS to happen once in a while.
Multiple posts, I know I said no more, but it's been 9 hours, and I think I get it. It's like congealing inside my head. This is a very profound moment for me.
I was HOLDING a MAK 90 with a 30 round banana clip. It was armed and ready to fire, because I was about to shoot Godzilla in the face when Eric botched. I could have cut that damn MP in half!!!!!!!!!! (Pardon the language. It's about the only thing that really expresses my feelings here.)
I WAS forced, but only because my character wasn't willing to do that. Now he would be.
You must admit, it does seem like I was forced. It's like congealing in my head.
Just an aside, this game seems to turn Christians into killers, liars and thieves. Kyler and myself being the killers, and who among you hasn't lied or stolen something?
(Doing Therapy)
More than 15 hours later
Just so you know, I'm laughing hysterically right now.
I finally figured it out. This was a psychotic episode. No joke. The psychotic episodes are based on memories. I used to call them "The Bad Memories" before I knew what they were. I have such clear mental pictures of what that was like for my character that it's almost like I lived it personally. I could so see myself doing that. Thinking that the psionics are still working, and encountering a cop first thing, you're damn right I could. I can even see the look on my face when I knock out the MP. It's the single most realistic daydream I've ever had. It's also the lowest-grade psychotic episode I've ever had.
I WAS forced, but only because of my own inaction. It's what MJ would call "Character Development." I think part of my problem is I play my character TOO realistically.
I think, as a psychotic episode, it's almost gone. I hope so anyway. Don't feel too bad. I still have low-grade psychotic episodes based on memories from when I was 7 years old.
Thanks for dealing with me on it.
I'd kind of like some thoughts from people.
(Doing Therapy)
It is neither uncommon nor irrational for players to have vivid memories of events in the lives of their characters. I have a few myself, and somewhere wrote a Game Ideas Unlimited article discussing the fact that one of those memories (crossing a chasm inside a volcano) is just as vivid as a memory of a somewhat comparable real event (shooting a waterfall at flood stage in a canoe). Of course, in the first one, I was a dralasite--an amoeba-like intelligent alien--but that doesn't damp the memory much. I also have a fairly vivid memory of my verser character choking when his respiratory system was magically attacked--it was very like some of the choking I've done in life when people smoke around me.
I'd bet that there are others here that have "vivid" memories of some of their character experiences.
--M. J. Young
The thing is though, that if it was a psychotic episode for me, what was it for my character? He isn't psychotic anymore, but he's furious about it.
Ya know, just an aside, I just had this visual of a very possible and believable storyline for my current world to follow. Too bad I'm not allowed to make suggestions....
(Doing Therapy)
I know I said that if you could spend an hour inside my head, you would be amazed at the restraint I've shown. If I could spend an hour inside your head, I imagine I would be amazed at your restraint as well.
This was just driving me nuts though.
(Doing Therapy)
Ya know MJ, I just realized something. Before I started playing this game, if someone had asked me if I would interfere in the attack at Pearl Harbor, I would have scoffed at the idea. However, that's exactly what I did. I also said that if someone did, it would be a bad thing. However, from my character's POV, he is hoping that Germany DID take over the world. After the treatment he received.... He isn't really bothered by it.
This is very profound for me. I wish you could appreciate it the same way that I do.
(Doing Therapy)
Two Posts
What all did I do there, in my attempt to stay "Uninvolved."
Gave the US military prototypes of the AK-47 assault rifle and the Ruger P-89 9mm. Neither caliber existed at that time. The AK-47 wouldn't even be invented until 1947. Their soldiers probably started carrying that weapon, long before it would have been invented. And since it is ALSO Russia's largest export, what did that do to their (Already) crippled economy?
I prevented the single most important historical event of the 20th century. Because of that, the US will not enter WW2 on time. It is widely believed by modern historians that if the US had entered the war 5 years later, we would have lost. Germany was inventing weapons that would be formidable by today's standards. Given 5 more years to develop and mass-produce... We wouldn't have stood a chance.
I gave the US military prototypes of numerous electronic components that would also not be invented until 1947 or later. They took my van apart, and I'm sure they had their best people looking at the rest of my gear. Yeah, I got most of it back, but they still had it for about 2 years. I'm sure they had people studying it.
I might have single-handedly changed that world forever.
My character also kind of sees that as leveling the playing field though. I gave the US a prototype of a very formidable battle rifle. I also gave them faster, better electronics. On the other hand, I may also have given Germany their needed 5 years.
The Cold War won't be between the US and Russia, it will be between the US and Germany. Russia won't even be a player. That would probably be the best-case scenario. Maybe the US won't get into WW2 at all now. The question is now how fast can they do what they're doing?
Kyler said (although my character had already versed out) that Mexico had invaded the US. I don't see how that could have come from me, but it must have. Maybe there will be two World War Twos. The US vs Mexico, and Germany vs France and England. After that, yeah, I could see a Cold War between the US and Germany. We claim Mexico as territory, they claim England and France, yeah, I could see that.
Man, I would LOVE to run through that world again. Revisit in 1985 or something....
(Doing Therapy)
Wait, how exactly did you prevent the entry of the US into WW2? Flat-out warning the base shortly before the attack wouldn't have changed much, since there would have just been a pitched battle, possibly resulting in the destruction of Japan's largest carrier group and certainly saving most of the pearl harbor battleships. The fall-out of that would lead to the rapid destruction of the rest of the Japanese navy, and in the worst case would lead to the US in such a massively stronger position that Hitler would know better than to try going to war with the US.
I don't know that long-term forewarning would change much either, even if Japan knew about it. At most they'd alter the timing, since their long-term objectives basically required attacking pearl harbor for even a slim chance of success.
Well, it was more the public outrage at the sneak attack that decimated a base on US soil. By turning it into a pitched battle, I changed public opinion of it. They would want to deal a decisive "Don't ever try that crap again" blow, but probably wouldn't want to go war over it. I'm just running different scenarios in my head, that's all.
(Doing Therapy)
Besides, even if all I did was delay the US entry by 2 years, that's still 2 more years that Germany would have had to develop and mass-produce those super weapons. I could imagine quite a bit happening.
(Doing Therapy)
Of course, these kinds of shifts in history can be really dramatic. For example, you suggested that the Cold War would be between the US and Germany instead of the USSR; Germany, though, was an extreme right wing power. One of the side effects of the Cold War was McCarthyism, the fear of left-wing communists under every stone. You would shift that to the fear of right-wing Naziism under every stone, and push US policy toward the left and socialism.
--M. J. Young
Ya know MJ, I also have some pretty vivid memories of the gunfight in Dancing Princess. Especially on that black and white checkerboard dance floor. Having the flying demon coming at me whilst I'm on the hill, then running down the hill, and shooting at it whilst I'm running. That's just so interesting how you can "remember" something that never really happened. I'd be interested in reading that article you wrote on the subject if you can ever find it.
(Doing Therapy)
The links have not been repaired, but the article in question is Game Ideas Unlimited: Vivid.
--M. J. Young
Just to be clear right off the bat, this is said with about 90% sarcasm and about 10% seriousness.
It is absolutely indisputable that I was both railroaded and forced to get involved. Being railroaded means the referee already decided what would happen. Adam already decided that I would talk to the MP, therefore, I was railroaded. And since talking to the MP is more involved than I would have chosen to get, I was forced to get involved. See how simple that was?
I don't think Adam forced you to talk to the MP. He probably had the MP talk to you and ask you questions, and there may have been a danger that the MP would have used potentially deadly force had you refused to answer; but then, you might have attempted by hand signals to indicate that you had lost your voice, or you might have signaled to him to wait a moment while you reached into your van and pulled out some serious firepower, or you might have dodged bullets and driven away.
Adam may have cleverly induced your cooperation with the MP, but he did not force you to talk.
--M. J. Young
Like I said, it was said with about 90% sarcasm. I was HOLDING a MAK 90. I could have cut that bastard in half, if I had had the inclination to do so. Why I didn't is something I wonder about.
As 90% sarcasm and 10% serious, so too am I now 90% convinced that I wasn't forced into the story, and 10% convinced that I was. I still say that the opener of the announcement over the PA system is the way to go on that world. Yes, maybe it gives too much information too quickly, but that would be bound to happen every once in a while. I'm just trying to get an idea for my own refereeing style.
Two Posts
Seriously MJ, all jokes aside, do you ever regret sending me there?
(Just so you know, I'm laughing whilst I type this)
Ya know what I think was the single most important thing I learned from that experience? I learned the answer to the question "Why does God allow bad things to happen to people?"
For the longest time, I couldn't understand why MJ didn't let me out of that jeep crash botch. Rookie player that misunderstood the rules, give him a break this one time and pretend like the botch didn't happen. It seemed completely reasonable to me. However, I couldn't see The Big Picture. That is, that letting me out of the botch wouldn't be fair to Adam, MJ, or any of the other players, and especially not to me. MJ had to allow something bad to happen to me, in order to be fair.
In much the same way, God has to allow bad things to happen in order to be fair. Now you're going to say "Well, what's fair about a 3 year old child starving to death?" Just as I couldn't see The Big Picture, neither can we. The Big Picture in this case is so big that no human could possibly understand it. I'd really like some thoughts from people on this. It was really profound for me when I realized it. I hope it can be likewise for others.
I think it's an excellent insight. I don't want to take anything away from your realization of it, because I think it's the kind of thing most people have to come to in their own minds. I could discuss the big picture, but that's not really what this is about.
--M. J. Young
As I believe I have told you, my psychotic episodes are based on memories. I used to call them "The Bad Memories" before I knew what they were.
The imaginary memory of this was a psychotic episode for me, probably the lowest-grade episode I've ever had.
When I was on my last anti-psychotic medication, this didn't really bother me much.
Now I'm doing therapy. The therapy involves putting myself into a low-grade psychotic state, and learning how to control the episodes, "Facing my demons" as it were.
Really, which is better? Suppressing the memory with medication, or learning and growing from it, through therapy. Yes, it's been irritating for all of you, but at least you only had to hear about it on the forum.
No need to reply MJ, it's just a moment of psychosis.
(Doing Therapy)
Two Posts
Ya know, having an MP pull up 10 seconds after you arrive is awfully convenient too, if you really think about it. Almost as much as the PA system announcement. The reason I didn't run when I saw him is because I figured it was like Why Spy, and someone knew a verser was coming. I thought it was some manner of welcoming committee. At the very least, you should give the player a few minutes to determine where they are. If I had known where I was, there's no way I would have gotten arrested. By the time he showed up, it was too late. I don't know how better to put it to you.
Unless they actually saw you verse in, what are the odds of some lone, roving robot MP out in the middle of nowhere showing up 10 seconds after you arrive? If they DID see you verse in, I'm absolutely certain it would be quite a bit more than just some lone, roving robot MP out in the middle of nowhere who showed up. But even then, it would take them a few minutes to get to you, and I think having dozens of military vehicles closing on your position would tip you off to SOMETHING!!!!!
(Doing Therapy)
Multiple Posts
I just realized it. That's the opener that I would use. Someone very far away sees you verse in. So, within minutes after you arrive, air raid sirens go off, the place starts going bananas, and an announcement over the PA system "Pearl Harbor security. We have an intruder alert, all units close on the Eastern sector immediately!!" And you have dozens of jeeps and trucks, maybe even a Sherman tank or two closing on you. You have to give the player a few minutes head start and tell them where and when they were immediately, or it just wouldn't be fair, but I think I would have preferred that opener. If I don't get away, I'm not even going to attempt to be cocky with them!!!!
And yeah, after giving it some thought, that could certainly be called forcing them into the story. However, at least they get the chance to run, and you gotta admit, that would be wild.
(Doing Therapy)
And of course, if the verser manages to get away, someone got a good enough look at them to do a composite sketch, which shows up in the newspaper the next day. They probably left a great deal of their gear behind as well. Can you imagine the implications after the place was attacked? The verser would be on the FBI's most wanted list. What could come out of that?
You'd see how far the player would go to NOT get involved, at least in my case you would have. What could come of that?
(Doing Therapy)
I did kind of want some thoughts from some people (especially anyone who might be considering running this) on the opener I suggest. Yeah, I know it didn't happen that way, but the entire point of this board is to teach referees, right?
And seriously, what ARE the odds of some lone, roving robot MP out in the middle of nowhere showing up 10 seconds after you arrive? That seems awfully convenient to quote Scott.
Has ANYONE run it or played Pearl Harbor, besides me? I cannot picture that scenario going well for the verser, no matter how hard I try. Getting arrested for trespassing on a military base cannot be good.
Really, what's the point of it? No new skills, no new equipment, just go, get arrested, get killed and verse out. Completely pointless. At least getting in the crash, I obtained some new clothes and some boxing skills, otherwise, it would have been a waste.
John, the Pearl Harbor world was created just for you, to see what you would do. It was never run before, and never since.
But as far as "what's the point", well, I don't see the point of most worlds to be character building (i.e., Skills and Equipment), but building character. By your standard, there would be no point to sending you to the Titanic, or the Chicago Fire, or Mt. Vesuvius. Yet I think there is point to all of these.
I am far more interested in the choices you make in a world than I am in the benefits you collect. For one thing, from a certain point of view the benefits are pretty much pointless--I could simply let you play a character that already is and has everything you want. I think it's better to build such a character through play, for a host of reasons; but I don't think that the point of the game is building the character, but using the character to respond to situations.
--M. J. Young
That's the thing, if you HAD put me on Titanic, I think I would have stopped the sinking and not been complaining nearly as much. I wish you could see this through my eyes. I really do. Maybe then you would understand.
You also have to remember that, aside from maybe a half-dozen sessions of Twilight 2,000, all of my RPG experience has been here. Sometimes I feel like you expect me to know what I'm doing. You've all been doing this for years. I was just bored one evening, found a time travel site, emailed the author, and the rest is history.
Two Posts
John, the Pearl Harbor world was created just for you, to see what you would do. It was never run before, and never since.
(Just so you know, I'm laughing)
That is SOOOO funny to me. You just said you wanted to see what I would do. Then, when I'm never given the chance to do what I would do (which is LEAVE) I am the ONLY person who has a problem with it. I find that hysterical.
MJ, believe it or not, I totally get the point you're making. It's what I said. If you could spend an hour inside my head, you would understand.
Of course, medically speaking, clinical depression and psychosis are exactly the opposite of each other, so spending an hour inside my head would probably be the single happiest hour of your entire life. And I can't stand being inside it. Ain't it ironic?
Oh yeah, MJ, no need to reply. I really get it now, I think. This is just one of those occasional moments of pique I mentioned before.