I'm watching a Duck Tales episode. In it, Scrooge and company time travel back to 1,000,000 BC and meet Bubba, a Neanderthal cave duck. His highest tech skills are probably knots, wheels, levers and spear technology. In the end of the episode, Bubba operates the time machine by himself in order to get back to Scrooge. It takes him at least 3 attempts before he gets to the correct place and time, but he does operate it. Could a Neanderthal with a 2@ or 3@ tech bias operate a time machine, which is 15@ tech? He had seen Launchpad operate said time machine, so he did have an example to go on, but still, that seems a little much, under Multiverser rules.
And speaking of time travel, what if you time traveled back to when the tech bias was too low to support the use of the time machine?
Any self-respecting time machine has to have a 15@10 Immunity to Temporal Paradox effect built in to stop that sort of thing from happening, otherwise it's just silly. After all, if you think about it, the invention of a time machine would be a big enough event to raise the tech bias. Which means you would be in that situation if you travelled back to, say, the day before you invented the time machine. See why that gets silly?
And aren't there rules for "operating a device blindly" that is, turning it on with no idea what exactly constitutes "on"? Sort of a "push the big red button and see what happens" kind of thing? And that's probably more or less what Bubba is doing - activating the device blindly and seeing where a GE roll lands him. He just happened to roll low after three times (with a liberal dose of Plot Hammer mixed in).
Operating it blindly is what he does for the first three tries. (He tries 4 times actually) On the fourth try, he draws a picture of Scrooge, and verbally tells the machine "Find Scooge" (He can't pronounce the R for some reason) The machine looks at the drawing, and activates itself, going to the present day, just in time for Bubba to save Scrooge and company from a giant monster.
Just an aside, Duck Tales was one of my favorite shows of all time, even now. I got it on DVD from NetFlix.
Stats for Bubba the cave duck
2@10 strength
2@10 stamina
1@2 intellect
1@2 intuition
2@10 willpower
1@5 persuasion
1@5 charisma
1@1 animal magnetism
1@2 density
2@10 flexibility
2@10 agility
0@0 education level (he's never been to school at all)
3@1 weapon-dependent martial art (use Neanderthal club)
2@5 make fire
2@5 make spear
2@5 ride dinosaur
I just thought that was interesting to think about.
We have two distinct problems being discussed in this thread. One is whether a 15@ time machine will work in the word of the cave man, and the other is whether a cave man can learn to operate a 15@ time machine.
It is certainly possible to use a skill to travel from point A to point B that won't work to travel from point B to point A. The classic example is that it is really rather simple to open a gate from the border supernatural to any natural universe, but it might not be possible to open a gate from the universe to the border supernatural. It is interesting in this regard that the original Alexander Hartdeggen, time traveler in the H. G. Wells book, never attempted to travel to the past. In Wells' mind, the interesting thing to do with a time machine was always to go to the future. You might build a time machine that can take you to a point in the past in which the time machine would not work--or rather, in which you could not work it.
That is a key point. Many of our more sophisticated machines are built with @0 operation skills. The aircraft designer does not expect the pilot to understand how the airplane works, only how to work it. "Button pushing" skills which make it possible to operate a machine of which the user has little or no comprehension are @0 skills, and are never curved out. Thus assuming that our designer has created a machine that can be operated by a trained button-pusher, the machine will still work in any non-negative biased universe. You maybe can't build one, design one, fix one, sabotage one, or modify one, but you can make it work if it's designed that way.
Still, as John observes, it would require a 15@0 skill ability level to operate such a machine--maybe.
First, it is interesting to me that Bubba solves his problem by drawing a picture and showing it to the machine. This suggests to me the machine is not operated by use of a 15@0 operate time machine skill, but rather the machine is operated by an A.I. which is built into the control system, and the operator interacts with the A.I.--an artificial intelligence. The use of a user-friendly A.I. is only a 13@0 skill, so we've just saved ourselves 20 points.
Second, I don't know where you get the idea that Bubba the Cave Duck would have a 1@2 Intuition. Does he not live or die by his awareness of his surroundings, his ability to recognize danger and to spot advantage? I would be very surprised if he had less than a 1@10 intuition, particularly given that you've listed him as so unintelligent that he couldn't possibly think his way to anything. Bubba is a hunter. He needs the ability to avoid surprise. He could even be one of the outstanding cavemen, with a mid to high 2@ intuition. Let's suppose that he has a 2@5 intuition, +25 on his chance to learn.
We also have Launchpad. I don't know what it is about Launchpad, but he seems to have a 3@10 SAL at operating any transportation device. He probably has a 3@10 SAL at operating the A.I. that is the interface for operating this time machine. That's important, because Bubba learned how to do this by watching Launchpad--+40 on his chance to learn.
As mentioned, Bubba's bias is probably 3@. We know he can make and use clubs and spears--levers and wedges, all simple. That's 3@1, and it adds +31.
There is an uncertainty in all this which we actually can resolve. We have made the assumption that the bias reached 15@7 when someone invented this time traveling machine, the first device to be able to travel through time. Thus when we travel back to a point when the best humans could do was make clubs and spear points, we took the bias of the world back to 3@. But did we? People often ask me what the bias of our world is, and I always tell them that I can't answer that, because I don't have sufficient information. For example, I don't know for certain that there are not, right now, intelligent beings on another planet involved in time travel experiments. Indeed, there might be Galifreyans who have been jaunting about in their TARDISes since Earth was a cooling blob of magma. I don't have any evidence that such beings do exist, but I cannot rule them out. Thus it is possible that the ducks have moved to a point in the past where Earth's most advanced technologies are third level wedges and levers, but on planet Wolverine the evil wolves have been working with time travel for generations already.
Even without the supposition that there are technologically advanced intelligent aliens elsewhere in the universe, we do not need to assume that the area bias level of the universe is lower simply because no one has the skills within it. Remember, although bias reflects the skills of the indigs of a universe, it also reflects the intentions of the ruling deities. If when the Great Disney was creating the Duckverse, He determined that the tech bias in the Duckverse should be 15@10 so that Duckind would be drawn toward great achievement in all things technological, then that was the bias, even though no one knew it. The bias can't be lower than the highest skill in that universe, but it can always be higher. Yes, it often seems and often is so that what indigs learn raises the bias--it may also be that time travel skills will never be within the bias in any universe in which the bias must be raised to achieve them, or that however time travel is achieved it will not allow travel to a point in the past earlier than that achievement. (That is not so far fetched. The currently popular Wormhole Theory of time travel maintains that time travel is possible between the two ends of the wormhole, and thus between a time later than the creation of the wormhole and a time further in the future, but never earlier than the creation of the time machine itself.)
If the world area bias is 15@, that's +15 more.
Where are we now? We have 2@5 BRA+3@10 example+3@1 bias+15@world bias=111 against a 13@0 skill, putting us 19% shy of 0. So it would appear at first blush that Bubba cannot learn to operate the AI that operates the time machine.
On the other hand, we have another possibility.
If you look at the T1@2 Light Fire from Spark, it says that this skill:
includes (as separate skills under the same heading) the operation of a standard spark and fuel (butane,propane, et cetera) lighter, and a spark igniter for gas fires such as Bunsen burners and blowtorches (all positively sit-modded).In other words, a cigarette lighter is the same concept as flint and steel, but has a +20 sit-mod because someone went out of his way to make the machine easy to use. In much the same way, you might have encountered touch screen computer interfaces at various commercial enterprises. The one that comes to my mind is that Sears catalog department once had such screens so that you could walk into that area of the store and instead of using their sales help get the information you needed by touching images on the monitor, which registered as information in the computer. You thus were learning a T11@0 Use Computer skill, and pretty certain to learn it, because the incredibly user-friendly user interface created a strong positive sit-mod. A.I. systems have a tendency to do that--they are made specifically to be user-friendly, in most cases. It may be that the A.I. on this machine was so intuitively simple to use that there was as much as a +40 sit-mod on it.
And that would make Bubba's chance of successfully learning to operate the A.I. that operates the time machine 20%, one chance in 5. That he got it on the fourth roll is not really that surprising.
--M. J. Young
Second, I don't know where you get the idea that Bubba the Cave Duck would have a 1@2 Intuition. Does he not live or die by his awareness of his surroundings, his ability to recognize danger and to spot advantage? I would be very surprised if he had less than a 1@10 intuition, particularly given that you've listed him as so unintelligent that he couldn't possibly think his way to anything. Bubba is a hunter. He needs the ability to avoid surprise. He could even be one of the outstanding cavemen, with a mid to high 2@ intuition. Let's suppose that he has a 2@5 intuition, +25 on his chance to learn.
Well, he's not very intelligent. I assumed he would have a low intuition. It didn't occur to me that intuition would be the thing that kept his little butt out of danger. He was my favorite character from Duck Tales.
Just an aside, I gave him the 3@1 skill with the Neanderthal club because he is trying to protect Scrooge from a Samurai warrior, who is about 8 feet tall. Bubba jumps over a wall to attack the Samurai, and with a loud cry of "Bubba Clubba!!!!", whilst falling, hits the Samurai squarely on the top of the head 3 times before Bubba's feet hit the ground. Anybody that can make three attacks like that whilst falling HAS to be an expert with their weapon.
Two Posts
I'm curious MJ, what kind of intellect score would you give a Neanderthal? I recall you saying that anything less than 1@1 would be sub-human. I was always under the impression that a Neanderthal WAS sub-human.
Three Posts
So if I'm understanding you correctly, operating Doc Brown's DeLorean time machine would be a T8@0 operate motor vehicle skill, right?
BTW, I think Osevens was right. For the first three tries, Bubba operates the time machine blind, and only interfaces with the AI on his fourth attempt. Rolling under a 20 on one try is not unbelievable. Good thing too, cuz Bubba only had enough fuel for one more attempt.
Actually, Neandertals were reasonably smart, though the cro-magons successfully out-teched them. They're more like low human, really.
Also, is he specified as a neanderthal duck or as a cave duck?
A1nut - T8@0 Operate Motor Vehicle with maybe an Operate Computer System for the Flux Capacitor? I mean, all you have to do is turn the key and type in when you're going (that is, the time to which you are traveling) and then start driving. Anyone who can use a calculator and drive a car could operate Doc's DeLorean, but only Doc knows how the hell he managed to build it (I guess because it takes a while for that universe-tech-bias raise to propagate?).
Also, is he specified as a neanderthal duck or as a cave duck?
Neanderthal duck.
A1nut - T8@0 Operate Motor Vehicle with maybe an Operate Computer System for the Flux Capacitor?
That would probably be accurate. Biff Tannen didn't have a problem operating it.
but only Doc knows how the hell he managed to build it (I guess because it takes a while for that universe-tech-bias raise to propagate?).
Or, more simply, because he hasn't taught anyone else how and no one else has successfully researched it independently. Not really surprising even if the universe bias were 15@10 and had been since the dawn of time.
John, probably 90% of what we "know" about Neanderthals is speculation.
A very long time ago, it seems now, I created a world entitled Race War, as part of a stripped version of the game for demo purposes (which was not terribly good, but did have one element I liked). Within it, Neanderthals and Cro Magnons shared a small continent, and were starting to impinge on each other's territories. These were the stats I gave them:
Neanderthal Cro-Magnon
Persuasion 1@6 1@5
Charisma 1@4 1@5
An Mag 1@5 1@5
Strength 1@8 1@4
Stamina 1@8 1@4
Resistance 1@7 1@4
Density 1@3 1@1
Flexibility 1@4 1@7
Agility 1@4 1@8
Hand/Eye 1@3 1@8
Intellect 1@7 1@5
Intuition 1@2 1@8
Ed Lev 0@7 0@7
Will Power 1@8 1@5
RSV 1@3 1@8
MSV 1@4 1@7
TV 1@3 1@6
DV 1@7 1@4
BRA Tech 1@7 1@8
Psi 1@8 1@8
Mag 1@7 1@8
Bod 1@8 1@8
Bias Tech 4@2 4@2
Psi 0@0 0@0
Mag 0@0 0@0
Bod 5@3 5@3
I was basing it on research that supported theories that Neanderthals and Cro Magnons were more closely related. Those theories were then in favor; they are now again in disfavor. In essence, the debate is whether this creature should be listed as homo homo neanderthalensis or homo homo sapiens neanderthalensis, that is, is being Neanderthal a distinct species, or is it only a race within the modern human? The world I drew took the line that these were combatible races of the same species, not different species.
We can't subject Neanderthals to intelligent tests, so the best we can do is study their tools and artwork--and even that is somewhat guesswork. A frozen body of such a creature was found in the Alps, and it appeared that he may have traded with Cro Magnons. That complicates the situation. Did Neanderthals develop technology comparable to Cro Magnons, or did they only recognize how to use Cro Magnon technology?
If I were creating a world in which Neanderthals were part of the scenario, I would have to define exactly who these Neanderthals are. I note that in Sliders, they had Cro Magnons who operated space ships and dimensional sliding machines. Merely saying that this creature is a Neanderthal does not answer any of the important questions about it. You have to decide what, in this world, Neanderthals are, and how they may best be defined based on that information.
And yes, the operation of the Delorean appears to be an 11@0 operate computer control system with an 8@1 (isn't the Delorean standard transmission?) operate motor vehicle. The computer interface makes the operation of the time machine much simpler. There is a separate question as to whether there should be a second skill check, as to whether the computer successfully operates the time machine, but this is more likely to be the case where the computer is a genuine AI capable of making decisions and so having skills of its own.
--M. J. Young
I was also thinking about an analysis of the time travel of that episode. When Scrooge and company first meet Bubba, Bubba is weaponless and cornered by a T-Rex. The time machine lands on the T-Rex and drives it away. From that, I would conclude, in the original history, Bubba didn't live much longer, so taking him to the future probably prevented whatever anomalies his survival would have created.
Next, they land in what appears to be Medieval China. Bubba becomes a fulfillment to prophesy. The "Great One" who would protect the city, when he engages and defeats the aforementioned Samurai. How that would have gone down originally is anyone's guess, but if it was prophesy, then SOMEONE would have done it eventually.
They then travel to the future, no anomalies there.
Upon sending Bubba back to his own time, they leave him with the time machine. On his three failed trips, first, he arrives in Egypt and breaks the nose off of the Sphinx, the next failed attempt has him in Medieval England (thereabouts) showing the flying time machine to two peasants who are trying to build their own flying machine, and then he lands atop Mount Rushmore, and is not seen by anyone. The fourth trip puts him back with Scrooge, when he lands the time machine on a dinosaur which is about to devour Scrooge. Then Bubba stays in the future.
Since Bubba likely would have died has Scrooge and company not shown up, bringing him to the future was probably the best way to correct the anomalies.
Ya know MJ, I just realized something. Bubba's IQ isn't at all related to his tech bias. He just seems stupid, because he doesn't understand the technology. Put him with something he knows, and he's probably the single most educated and intelligent person there.
Bubba isn't stupid, he just has a really low tech bias, and doesn't understand very much of our world. In His Own Element Bubba could be a genius.
Probably 1@6 or 1@7 intelligence, now that I think about it. An IQ of 100 is average intelligence. If I'm understanding correctly, that's a 1@5 score, right?
(Doing Therapy)
Two Posts
Ya know, I just had another thought. Bubba might not understand a telephone, but he does understand a wheel. A rotary dial telephone is just a box with a wheel on it to Bubba. As long as he was smart enough to pick up the handset, and had the ability to read a phone number at a decent level, he'd be all set.
Probably that would be a bonused intellect check, right? Bonused because he's certainly seen someone use a telephone once he got to the future, so he has a modicum of an understanding of how they function.
Just putting real life into Multiverser terms, in an attempt to better understand the game.
(Doing Therapy)
Multiple Posts
MJ, I think you botched typing out the stats on the Neanderthal/Cro Magnon. I recall you saying that one was more intelligent, and the other was stronger, but on that sheet, you have the higher scores both listed for Neanderthal.
Neanderthal Intelligence:
1. Neanderthals are closer to the orginal, and thus have less flaws. So they are smarter.
2. Neanderthals have less opportunity to use intelligence, and in Multiverser you can raise your intelligence by practise (Perhaps Intelligence is a combination of skills to a large degree anyways.) So they are dumber.
I understand there are two theories of Neanderthal muscle. One makes them to be scavengers. The other portrays the type of hunters that aggressively go after Mammoths, even hanging off the sides of Mammoths.
Seeing as modern day scholars cannot replicate the tool wear marks created by the use of tools....this is because the Neanderthal was stronger than modern man. We're sweet, civilized, intelligent, social Collie dogs. I suspect Neanderthal might be closer to a Great Dane version of human. So I'm going with the muscled out Neanderthal.
1@5 INT
1@9 STR
Hey, I know this isn't where this kind of stuff is supposed to go, but I just saw T's post in here, so I thought that he might see my post in this thread.
I'm unable to get on rpol, and thus worldwalker. It looks like my university has banned the website or something, because I cannot connect to it on campus. I'll check to see if I can at home this weekend, and will know more by then.
Thanks for putting up with this temporary interruption guys,
-K
Hey, no problem, we all do it from time to time.....
(Doing Therapy)
Which is why bias is part of the skill learning process. Bubba would have a terrible time learning to use a time travel machine not because he is stupid but because he doesn't even understand how to use a wheeled cart. He could be the smartest man alive in his age, 2@10 intellect, and it would still be quite difficult for him to grasp time travel simply because he lacks the background.
And yes, 1@5 is roughly a 100 I.Q., although Intellect is listed as "the closest to I.Q. in the game", and not necessarily the exact equivalent.
--M. J. Young
Krillis,
I saw your note. We can hold your part of the game in stasis until you're ready. Thanks for the info.
Worst case, you can post here. But for now, we can wait and see what develops. Take care.