Hey, I'm using a different computer, and this one doesn't have your email in the database. Anyway, I wanted to ask you something about reincarnation. I've noticed that all of the people I know who claim to have been reincarnated always lived really good lives. You claim to have been a Roman senator's son. No one ever says "In one life, I was a dirt-poor farmboy from Kansas." If you want to take it to email, mine is A1nut@insight.rr.com. Or we can discuss it here if you wish, and no one else objects. At any rate, email me so I can get your address put back into my database. Thanks.
(Doing Therapy)
I'll try to email you next time I'm in my email.
It's been my experience that people have both good lives and bad. My friend Kat, for instance, remembers a past life wherein she was burned at the stake during the Salem Witch Trials. I think it depends on which lives had something happen in them that was big enough to leave an impression that lasts.
In one of mine, I was a Crusader. I remember meeting King Richard, in his command tent. It was night, and torchlit, and I remember being horribly embarrassed because I was taller than the king.
Oddly enough, in all of my lives, the parts I remember aren't the big important parts.
Or at least, they don't seem terribly important looking back. Though I suppose they're events that would be personally significant.
Some people would call that a mental illness. Well hey, I believe God speaks to me when I'm doing my psychosis therapy. I wouldn't call that a mental illness at all.
And if it is a mental illness, no big deal. I figure if I believe it to be God-inspired, then it must be.
(Doing Therapy)
So do you remember seeing any dinosaurs in a past incarnation? :)
A1Nut - I've always found that I could tell the difference between a genuine spiritual experience and just my mind playing tricks on me. Don't ask me how, it's not something I could quantify, it's one of those things that when it happens you just know, y'know? So don't let anyone tell you it's not God if that's how you feel it.
Tadeusz - As interesting as the implications of that would be, no, my memories of ancient Rome are the earliest I have.
A1Nut - I've always found that I could tell the difference between a genuine spiritual experience and just my mind playing tricks on me. Don't ask me how, it's not something I could quantify, it's one of those things that when it happens you just know, y'know? So don't let anyone tell you it's not God if that's how you feel it.
Well, the thing is, I'm not 100% certain that mine is truly of God. I figure if it's not of God, it can't be harmful, if it's helping me to deal with my psychosis. The thing is though, I'm glad for that. Being 100% certain of something like that would be a sign of delusion. (No offense intended, but that is a medical fact) The fact that I'm not 100% certain kind of reinforces the idea for me though. It's like God knew how I would evaluate my thoughts on the topic.
(Doing Therapy)
In one of mine, I was a Crusader. I remember meeting King Richard, in his command tent. It was night, and torchlit, and I remember being horribly embarrassed because I was taller than the king.
This is probably entirely impertinent, because it assumes the truth of all kinds of things that I do not believe. However, I was reminded of something I read when I was researching Sherwood Forest.
Harry, did you get the impression he was gay?
--M. J. Young
This is probably entirely impertinent, because it assumes the truth of all kinds of things that I do not believe.
You witnessing to an Atheist is exactly the same thing. I file this one in the "What If" category. "What If reincarnation is possible?" I don't know, and I don't suppose it really matters.
MJ - I've heard that about him in this life, but to be honest I don't know. Reliving the memory, it doesn't seem that way to me. I don't want to corrupt the memory by looking for that, or looking to avoid it, as I relive it. Then again, it's possible he was and I just didn't know it. Considering the memory I have of him was of meeting him in a command tend with three other men looking over a battle map, it's not the sort of thing that came up in the moment.
Sorry I can't answer an age-old question for you...
I've heard the arguement that one of the phrases in the Bible ....mighty men of old....which might be talking of the Nephilim was a reference to reincarnation.
It was an arguement that certain special people came back.
=======
In the Tower of Rhodes setting, some of the residents reincarnate. Others change. I can't remember if some die of old age or not (although getting killed is a definite possibility), and there is the Eternity Door (cheerfully stolen from CS Lewis).
Eric, the Bible clearly says that we will be "Born again anew in Christ." It expresses a similar sentiment several times. You could take that all different ways. Who is to say that it isn't talking about reincarnation? Like I said, I file this one in the "What If" category.
(Doing Therapy)
The context of those quotations says that it's not about reincarnation.
Of course, a lot of people take snippets out of context and build ideas on them. But that's one of the reasons for having educated teachers.
--M. J. Young
This seems to be a place for espousing unusual religious beliefs, so I was just wondering why everyone thinks that Atheists are automatically going to hell forever?
I don't care how good your knowledge of the Bible is, show me the place where it has YOUR NAME written as the person who makes that decision.
God is the ONLY one that is allowed to say that someone is going to Hell, or anywhere else, for that matter, so how can anyone say something like that?
(Doing Therapy)
The first letter of John (among other parts of the new testament) should be quite clear on that for you, or Paul's letter to the Galatians.
You missed the entire point I was making Osevens. What I was saying is that it is not our decision.
(Doing Therapy)
Err, I'm not Osevens, or are you replying to an older post? For the record, there is also this: "No one who has faith in God's Son will be condemned. But everyone who doesn't have faith in him has already been condemned for not having faith in God's only Son." (John 3:18)
I do not want to judge. These are the words of Christ.
Sorry Nikolaj. Doing Therapy is psychosis therapy. I deliberately put myself into a psychotic state and teach myself to control it. I'm doing therapy right now. In other words, I'm not thinking completely clearly.
You STILL missed the entire point I was making. Show me the chapter and verse where it has the name of Nikolaj Bourgeroun (I'm sure that's spelled wrong) as the name of the person who decides that. THAT is what I'm asking you to do.
Your name isn't in there, therefore, no matter what, you STILL don't have the right to say that.
The truth is there, whether I say it or not. I'd rather say it so that people know what they are up to then not say it and having my friends go to hell for not knowing.
And for the record. If I were God, which, thankfully, I ain't, I'd probably not be this harsh, and evil would never go away in the end.
So ultimately, I'm not judging. I'm concluding. I could go on like this, but I think we'd better do that via mail, unless the others want to follow it. It is, on the other hand a discussion about the internal workings of Christianity, and thus probably not entirely followable. (I can't follow it from time to time. There's a lot to learn and to consider.)
Well, the thing is that people say "Playing musical instruments in church is a sin" or "Suicide is unforgivable" Where does it have their name written? It's just something that I find very arrogant about Christians, and I think it's a reason why there are so many Atheists in the world. What right do I have to say that someone is going to Hell? I don't know their heart. I don't know anything at all about them, really. God knows them better than they know themselves. It's just something that bugs me about it, that's all.
(Doing Therapy)
Now you are touching the hart of the matter, but not really looking in the right direction for answers I think.
Some of those things defined as sin are not sin at all. I have to quote Mark on this:
Of course, a lot of people take snippets out of context and build ideas on them. But that's one of the reasons for having educated teachers.
But I'd like to add that these teachers should also be reborn and Spirit-filled.
I could start saying things here, but I'd know I'm not in place or knowledge to give a complete and just theology on whim. I'd have to spend at least half a day looking things up, verifying stuff, praying. Being a teacher is a hard and serious thing, as the bible tells us.
Yet we should discern. The first chapter(s) of revelation tell us that, as do other parts, who are in turn, not written by Christ, but by Paul (through the guidance of the Spirit).
I had a Universalist confront me on this point. His problem was that he didn't see how God could punish anyone forever simply for not receiving the gospel.
I turned it around on him: how could a loving God force anyone to spend eternity in the presence of the most terrifying powerful being imaginable?
Let me put down a few points that might help.
- Every description of hell that we have, just like every description of heaven, is a metaphor. Whether we are talking about being thrown into the garbage dump (Gehenna was the valley outside Jerusalem where the trash was hauled, the worms never died and the fires were constantly burning) or hurled into the outer darkness or dropped into the lake of fire, these are all images, ways of expressing something highly undesirable.
You'll probably remember when in Star Trek IV Doctor McCoy asks Spock about death, and Spock says that it would be impossible to discuss it because McCoy did not have the necessary frame of reference. That's in some ways very true of any discussion about heaven and hell: we have never been there, and we have never been anywhere at all like there, so the best anyone can do is attempt to describe it as being like things we know. How would you describe Venice? The streets are all flooded, so everyone uses boats to get where they need to be? I remember the first time one of my sons was in upstate New York and saw mountains, he was very distressed. Even though he knew what mountains were and had seen pictures, actually seeing the ground alongside the road--he declared that it was all wrong, that the ground was sideways and was not allowed to be like that. Even so, everything we are told about hell is metaphor, an attempt to describe what something is like, because we do not have any ability to perceive what it is.
- There is also the hyperbole problem.
When Jesus told us that anyone who does not hate his parents is not worthy of Him, He did not mean that we were supposed to hate our parents. (We know this, because He elsewhere underscores the importance of the commandment to honor them.) What He meant was that in comparison with the devotion we have toward Him, our love for our parents would be so small as to seem like hatred by comparison.
Jesus also wanted to create an understanding of how very much would be lost by not entering heaven. Heaven is that place where we are in the very presence of God for eternity. For those who love and trust God, that will be a more wonderful experience than any of us can possibly imagine. In fact, it will be more wonderful than any of us can imagine imagining. What would it be to miss that? It would be horrible. It would be more horrible than we can imagine imagining. How can that gulf be conveyed?
Ever say, or hear someone say, that if they missed something which they were eagerly anticipating that they would kill themselves? It is (we hope) a hyperbolic expression, but it is the same idea: if I did not have this, or do this, life would not be worth living; it would be such a horror to miss it that I would rather die than live with the realization of what I missed.
So heaven is something like that: to miss it would be to have missed the most wonderful thing unimaginable, to have missed the entire point of our existence. It would be like the worst possible thing in the world, on steroids.
But then, if you had no idea of the possibility, would you be suffering for having missed it? That's a lot more difficult to say. What you would be experiencing would be so far from the joy you could have had that it would be like the worst suffering imaginable; but it could be hyperbole, and it could be that it isn't really "suffering" in the sense we understand but merely ordinary misery extended. If you miss the best, that for which you were created, heaven itself, it would be the unimaginably worst thing that could ever happen to you--but you might never know it.
Am I saying that there is no hell? I am not saying that. I am saying that we do not really understand hell, or heaven, and it is difficult to talk about it. Hell is still something that should be avoided, and perceiving it has incredibly horrible is incredibly accurate. It is not necessarily cruel, though.
- The gospel is ultimately and fundamentally about whether or not you trust God.
This is very much the theme of my on-the-edge-of-release book Do You Trust Me?
God didn't throw Adam out of Eden because God was angry. God sent Adam out of Eden because Adam did not trust God--Adam hid, because he was afraid. When Adam gained "the knowledge of good and evil", he realized that he was dangerous and could hurt others, and that others were dangerous and could hurt him, and he made clothes to protect him from harm--but he could not protect himself from God. God could hurt him and he could not hurt God. He had to leave. Being in God's presence was terrifying.
The author of Hebrews in chapter 11 goes to great lengths to identify people in the Old Testament who are examples of faith. Why does this matter? It matters because no one was every saved by works. Abel is the first example of faith given there. Cain in that context is an example of works: the only law they had said they should produce their food by farming the ground, and Cain did that; Abel took the shortcut, and produced his food by raising sheep. Cain's sacrifice said, "I have done everything you commanded, so you must accept me because I am righteous." Abel's said, "I have broken every law you ever gave, but I believe that you are a loving God who will be merciful and accept me." That's the conflict between faith and works at the beginning of time: the question being not whether we are good enough for God, but whether we trust Him.
The Followers of the Way did not think that Jesus had created a new way of salvation. They believed that this was the way of salvation from the beginning, and that the Jews, led by the Pharisees, misunderstood it completely. Keeping the Law, for example, was never about trying to be good enough to be accepted by God; it was about celebrating all that God had already done in accepting them. Jesus was more than just a prophet calling us back to the true path; He was the means by which all of this is made possible, and the example of how God's way works. But he was still the prophet that called us back to the way that had been the way of salvation from the beginning, salvation by grace through faith, that God shows mercy to those who trust Him.
Adam cannot enter God's presence, because he will be terrified and will have to flee. Cain cannot enter God's presence for the same reason: he will realize that he has no control, he cannot manipulate God and force God to accept him. Abel can enter God's presence, because Abel understands that God loves him and wants to accept him as he is.
That's the Christian message: God loves you and wants to accept you as you are. Sure, He wants to make you better than you are; but He is not trying to make you acceptable to Him--He is trying to make you the best person you can be, because you are his child and He loves you, and that's what parents do for their children if they can.
- For the atheist, seeing God face to face would be the most terrifying experience possible. For those who believe they are manipulating God by their good works, forcing God to accept them because they are good people, it will be terrifying to discover that they cannot control God nor force Him to accept them.
It would be the height of cruelty for God to force these people to spend eternity in the presence of that which they most fear: Him.
- It is not impossible that heaven and hell are the same place. Pull the veil away and we are all standing in the presence of God. For those of us who have come to love and trust Him, it is the wonderful fulfillment of all our hopes and dreams, and beyond that. For those of us who fear Him, it is horror beyond every horror we have ever expressed.
It is possible, though, that hell is not heaven, but a place where those who are so terrified of God that they cannot feel safe in heaven can flee to escape that presence. Hell in that view becomes the mercy of God, allowing those who will never trust Him to live with their ignorance.
None of this is written in the stone of "what M. J. believes"--all right, some of it is, but much of it is speculation, ideas that help me grasp the how God can be loving and people can still "go to hell". I know that some people in history have trusted God and so been saved without knowing anything about the sacrifice of Christ--Paul goes to great lengths in explaining that Abraham's trust in God is the same faith that saves us, and Abraham knew nothing about Jesus. Many other Old Testament saints are listed as having been saved because they had faith, they trusted God. I do not know with any certainty whether God has since saved anyone who trusted Him without knowing what we might call "the facts", but it does not appear that the facts are nearly so important as the trust. I will not speculate concerning who "might" have been saved without having confessed Christianity--I suspect that most of them, if there are any, are as unknown to us as we were to them. But God's way of salvation has always been, "trust me to love you, and I will have mercy on you." Jesus filled in some very important details to that, but He didn't change the system, He only explained and expounded it.
I hope this helps.
--M. J. Young
I recently had a related bit in my Dragonhunt gather (Temple of the Dying Sun module.)
Radian is the demon of self-righteousness who tempts people to believe they've never been wicked, and he claims to a be solar god of the Light. Eventually, the depredations of his followers which flow from his doctrines lead the goddess of mercy and the god of justice to send a crusade against him.
He ends up trapped in the bottom of his own temple for a thousand years with a prophecy that a certain verser will free him.
The prophecy can be read one of three ways for freedom. 1. You're free to go. 2. You beat the verser up and escape. 3. He's freed from his imprisonment in the Temple to be dumped in Hell.
The arguement I had the Creator use (or tried to) as to why he gave the judgement of this being to a verser was that this way Radian would make what he thought was a relatively free choice because he would think he could defeat the verser very possibly, and so when he chose evil, it would demonstrate his true nature.
At which point its Spirit Only Fire (Obliterative) Magic, Holy.
There's also a world I created which was an attempt to show that Noah's Flood was a mercy.
Guys, I'm doing therapy. This sounds hilariously funny to me. I hope you find it the same way.
Some months ago, I wrote a thread about a skill that would let you Defy Biases. MJ and others said that I was trying to "Break the game." NO!! I was just having fun. Call it a work of Multiverser fan fiction.
Besides, if you were a verser, wouldn't you like to be able to beat a flatline world? Game mechanics or no game mechanics, a verser would want the ability to do that.
As I stated above, this sounds really funny inside my head, so I hope you all see it the same way I do.
(Doing Therapy)