In my game, I was wanting to try a different method of going into boxing stance. I was hoping it would be a new use. MJ said that it was a new skill. I see the point he's got there. However, I was wondering how the difference is defined? Completely referee's call?
I am going to try boxing on my knees. Dropping to my knees in the middle of the fight. (Fighting blind, might disorient my opponent, or so my character is thinking) Is that a new use or a new skill? How could you tell the difference?
Since my last sparring partner was an 11 year old boy, I'm certain I would have boxed on my knees whilst teaching him, but that would be unrecorded practice, so it doesn't count, right? Just wondering.
(Doing Therapy)
Almost completely the referee's call. There are some things that would mean it's definitely a new skill. For example, if it does something that's usually covered under a higher bias - like if you try to TK pulse something you can't see, when Out-Of-Sight TK has a separate bias listing (I think 4@4, but I'm not sure) - then it has to be a new skill.
I only vaguely recall the discussion about the boxing stance. Wasn't that the one where you wanted to surprise your opponents by going into stance straight from a "hands up/hands on your head/hands where I can see them" kind of position? If I'm right about that, then yeah, that sounds like new skill. This is why: you're getting a new effect, surprise, that's usually associated with a B7@1 Steal Initiative skill. It's like you're trying to Fast Draw your stance.
But, generally, this is same kind of thing as deciding how narrow skill specializations are for 2@ and 3@ SALs. It's very much dependent on how the referee wants things to work in his game.
Oh, and boxing on your knees sounds like a B7@2 Positional Training. Since that's a particular effect that's listed elsewhere in the bias tree, boxing on your knees is quite likely a separate skill (which incidentally couldn't be done in a flatlined Bod world).
OK, that makes sense. I never really thought that boxing on my knees would be a completely new skill. Could it be both a new skill, AND a new use on boxing?
I would have done that when fighting William, the Smith's apprentice. He's eleven, my character is 29. If you can't figure out why I would box on my knees.... Now that I think of it, is that a skill I might already have? Just wondering.
Yeah, the Steal Initiative skill was the going into boxing stance from hands raised surrender position. That would be perfect. You've already got your hands up. (You gave me some new ideas for new uses on that, BTW)
Scott, you really should consider becoming a teacher. Elementary school wouldn't suit you though. Nothing less than high school I don't think. Maybe junior high. You'd really make a difference in some kid's life. I know I had a few teachers who did.
(Doing Therapy)
Two Posts
Ya know, I just had a thought, could you learn the intended skill ON a botch? I was just thinking that, in hand-to-hand combat, botches would be doing more damage than you intended, such as breaking your opponent's nose in a sparring session. I'm sure that's happened quite a few times. Perhaps you accidentally killed the guy you were trying to interrogate, something like that.
Suppose I tried that spinning backhand punch, rolled, a botch, bad roll, broke Lauren's nose. I STILL threw a successful spinning backhand punch. It impacted and did damage, the entire point of said attack. It just did WAAAAY more damage than I intended it to do. I'd think you'd still learn the skill, regardless.
(Doing Therapy)
Could it be both a new skill, AND a new use on boxing?
Dunno. Probably not, if I had to make a call.
Ya know, I just had a thought, could you learn the intended skill ON a botch?
No. Botching means you screwed up, and if you screwed up a learning roll, you didn't properly learn the skill - no matter what else happens. The farthest I would go would be to give you an example bonus (at a 1@1 SAL) on your next learning attempt: "let's try that same thing again, only without the [screwed-up element]." That would be rare, but I would allow it on occasion if the circumstances made it appropriate.
Edit: to clarify, it is in the nature of a botch that it wasn't what you meant to do, so in a learning situation it seems reasonable to me that you don't know quite how you did it. It has happened (as MJ often says) that players will try to replicate their more unusual botches - the character accidentally brings a rock to life, and then wants to learn how to do it on purpose. I have never heard a story in which MJ says, "don't worry, I already marked it down on your sheet at 1@3; after all, you've already done it once." The most I've heard of him doing has been allowing the player to use the botch as an example for a skill learning roll. That's what I've based my ruling on here.
Scott, you really should consider becoming a teacher.
I'm happy to hear you say that. (Figuratively speaking.) I'm looking into a teaching opportunity now, and a little extra confidence going into the interview can only help.
Thanks Scott. I'm still trying to get the hang of this. I'm still going to drop to my knees and make the attack, I was just hoping it would be a new use and not a new skill. (I REALLY want a 2@1 on Boxing!!!)
(Doing Therapy)
Two Posts
Ya know Scott, I just caught that edit you made. It makes sense, but I don't completely agree with you. As in the example of the spinning backhand punch breaking the nose in a sparring session. I think that should still count as learning the skill. At least on bod skills. However, that's just my opinion. That and 50 cents will get you a can of Pepsi.
Scott's right on all counts, and on those where it's a judgment call he has called it the way I would call it.
The one thing I would question (which is not something he addressed) is whether:
I would have done that when fighting William, the Smith's apprentice. He's eleven, my character is 29. If you can't figure out why I would box on my knees....is quite the same as
Dropping to my knees in the middle of the fight. (Fighting blind, might disorient my opponent, or so my character is thinking)....The former is definitely positional training, the idea that you could still fight while kneeling--something you might have to use in, for example, a low-ceilinged hall, and which would be particularly valuable in boxing where footwork is so integral a part of the stance. The latter, though, sounds to me like a tactical maneuver, something being done specifically to gain a tactical advantage in combat (the most common of these is the feint, but there are others).
But in neither case would it be a new use for boxing.
I might give a new use for boxing if you:
- fight in zero gravity or freefall
- fight a non-humanoid opponent such as a bird
--M. J. Young
Oh yeah, and those varied applications might result not in new use improvements to an existing skill but skill diversification into multiple professional-level skills.
--M. J. Young