I told you you were going to have to give me the occasional moment of pique. Well, here it is. Your other choice is ban me from the site completely, and I think MJ already said he can't do that....
I've said most of this before, I realize. It's not an attempt to start anymore fights, it's more of a way to explain my logic, in a concise, easy to understand form. I'm still getting this straight in my head.
An MP pulling up made perfect sense in that situation. UNTIL MJ told me that he wanted to see if I would "get involved". Well, how is getting arrested and going to the base NOT being involved? As far as I was concerned, I was only "not involved" for about 10 seconds before the MP pulled up.
Then MJ said he wanted to see if I would "Get involved voluntarily" And the way you find that out is by sending someone to force me at gunpoint to go to the base.... Oh but I wasn't forced, a choice to commit cold blooded murder is still a choice right?
Russia used to have a "volunteer" army. Your other choice was being drawn and quartered. Look me in the eye and tell me you really think that's voluntary, although technically it was. Oh, but I wasn't forced. Neither were the Russians who didn't want to get drawn and quartered. They volunteered, just as much I wasn't forced, right? Look me in the eye and tell me you really believe it was voluntary service in the Russian military. Although technically a choice to be drawn and quartered is still a choice to not join the army, just like a choice to kill an MP and spend the rest of my very long verser life in federal prison was a choice to not go to the base.
So, to see if I would "get involved" I'm never given the choice to NOT get involved. Giving me the choice to "not get involved" would be dropping me right next to a big sign that said "Pearl Harbor Naval Base exit this way ---->" When I left, MJ would scratch his head and say "Well, John must not have wanted to get involved. My question has been answered." To me, that's the ONLY way it could have played out in which I was "not involved."
In my mind, I was "involved" the minute the MP pulled up, and there's no way on God's green earth you can tell me I wasn't. Maybe I wasn't "involved" in your standards, but I sure as hell WAS involved!! Someone knows I'm there, that someone is intent on taking me to see his superiors. How am I NOT involved? "Well, you have the choice to not warn them of the attack." Yeah, but regardless, I'm STILL "involved". I was "involved" the minute the MP pulled up. Maybe I warn them, maybe I don't, but I WAS sure as hell "involved" when the MP pulled up.
Does this logic make any sense to anyone besides me? Like I said, it's not so much to start a fight, it's more to explain my thinking, and why this took me so long to get straight. It's no more starting a fight than being drawn and quartered for refusal is being forced. (evil sarcastic tone)
That thing with the Russian military. Although it probably sounds argumentative, wasn't. If someone told you to hop up and down on one foot 3 times (or some other equally mundane and simple task) or watch your entire family be brutally tortured to death, most people would say you were forced to hop up and down on one foot. MJ would undoubtedly say that, no, you weren't forced. You had the option of watching your entire family be tortured to death. It was presented as a question of "Where do you draw the line?" when are you being forced? And yes, I was forced to write the above. Well, no, not really. I could have just let it give me insomnia for the rest of the next couple of days.....
MJ said that I didn't "get involved" in Dancing Princess. I damn sure did "get involved" and don't even try to lie about it!!!! I learned how to blacksmith and I taught a 12 year old kid how to box. I damn sure WAS INVOLVED!!!! Not getting involved there would be finding a cave to sleep in and just living off the land. How can you possibly say that learning how to blacksmith and training a kid to box is being "uninvolved"? I damn sure DID "get involved" in Dancing Princess.
John, the entire Pearl Harbor matter is too complicated to argue.
You admitted that it was not unreasonable for an MP to pick you up upon your arrival. Neither you nor I know what might have happened next. Presumably he was taking you into custody so you could explain yourself to your superiors; you'd have spun some tale for them, and they might have believed it. It is entirely possible that they would have released you and let you take your stuff, after giving you the information you complained was not given. You were still in the "just arrived" phase of the game when you started making trouble.
For example, let's suppose that when you saw the MP coming you grabbed one of your more powerful weapons and attacked him. Maybe he would have fought back, maybe you would have killed him. But at that point you can't complain that we forced you to fight because the alternative was that the MP would have attacked you. You had no idea what the MP was going to do, and in fact all he did was take you into custody.
Or let's suppose that when Derek arrived on TerraNova you decided that a verser with potent computer skills was a serious danger to your cover, so you killed him. We don't know what would have happened in your scenario in that case. It would have been different from what is happening now. Similarly, if you had killed Lauren upon her arrival, your time here would have been very different.
Had I dropped you into Quest for the Vorgo, you would start by finding yourself lying on a table on a dais in a chapel with a priest standing over you. Some people immediately fear that they are the sacrificial victim, although no one has yet attacked the priest. You might say that in those early moments when the priest, sage, and wizard begin explaining that they have summoned you to go on a quest for them that the referee was forcing you into his scenario--but there's no reason why you can't kill those people, or barring that simply walk out of the story and do something else in a world filled with undead who believe you are a supernatural messiah.
I was wondering what Adam was going to do next in the Pearl Harbor scenario. I can't believe that you already knew. It was still in the phase of explaining what was happening; you made a choice to direct the scenario in a particular direction. You prevented the possibility that they might explain the situation to you and release you. That was your work.
--M. J. Young
Like I said several times up there. I wasn't arguing, I was explaining why I freaked out about it. We just have radically different definitions of "getting involved" is all. That and nicotine is a very powerful, natural anti-psychotic, and I ran out of cigarettes a few days ago.
And no, I didn't prevent myself from leaving. Adam did that. He picked the botches. He could have just as easily given me all "safe" botches. Referee fiat, right? "You botched, it was brain burn. You are no longer able to TK pulse the MP." Referee fiat once again, "The brain burn only lasts until you get to the base. You are fine once you step out of the jeep." Safe, and everyone still has a good time. He could have just as easily done that.
EDIT: I mean really, seriously, what was the point of putting the player in traction right before the best part and entire point of the story? Stupid actions of mine or not, that was STILL the referee's doing. Unless the referee got some kind of fetish out of hurting players, there was no point to doing that.
Two Posts
And just to be completely clear, I'm not arguing, I'm not even really complaining. I just knew that I wouldn't be able to sleep until I said that. Guess what? I was fast asleep about 10 minutes after I posted it. It's a lot more straight, but still just won't leave. Just give me the occasional moment of pique. Hey, I went 2 months without mentioning this. That's got to be some kind of record, all things considered....
Multiverser does not limit referee power as much as some games, but it does impose limits on it. The rules keep reminding the referee that a botch is a botch and cannot be made to be not a botch, even if it is a "good botch". I believe that Adam relied on a GE roll for how serious the accident was, and gave a fair interpretation of the roll. No, a referee cannot make all the botches safe; that would be cheating.
--M. J. Young
Mistake.
Gonna try. Been trying. Pray for me.