Two fighters, Fighter one has 1@3 strength, and 2@5 ability, fast defensive, weapon adverse kick, punch and throw based fighting style.
Fighter two has 2@5 strength and 1@3 ability schoolyard brawling.
Everything else being equal, who wins?
(Doing Therapy)
PS, I realize that everything else isn't likely to be equal, but I wanted to know if ability would win, or if strength would win.
Well, the guy going with 2@5 SAL likely goes first, swings twice as often, and has a significantly better chance of hitting with each attack, and since damage is a function of relative success and notstrictly a function of strength, I'm going to say the weak but skillful guy has the advantage here.
Yeah, but the other thing is the guy with 2@5 strength only has to land one really good shot.
(Doing Therapy)
I disagree, John. Strength is one part of Martial Strike Value, which is ONE factor in itself. Remember: single roll to hit and damage system. The person with higher skill gets two shots for every one the average guy lands. We need to know both people's martial strike value to determine number of shots and Damage Code. So we need Strength and...Agility or Hand/Eye or something, I'm not sure which. Probably Agility, maybe both if it's averaged from 3.
Whatever the case, since one person has greater Strength, but the same for the other attributes that count, their averaged Martial Strike value will not be equivalent to the skill of the other guy. 2@5 for skill, and like 2@1 Martial Strike for the other guy or something. The overall chance to hit, and thus damage, would be higher for the more skilled person, and they may even have more shots if the strong guy doesn't have 2@ MSV.
You then need to account for the style itself. What are the specific modifiers for each style? Does one style inherently have more attacks? What is "schoolyard boxing"? What are it's modifiers? Do they have accuracy sit mods, or damage sit mods?
You did account for special maneuvers within the styles; they are equivalent, hence they have the same moves within the style. Their minds are equivalent, perhaps thoughts too, so they even use them the same.
With the information given, it looks like skill has a higher probability of winning out, but we need more.
Damn Brock, you have a much better understanding of this than I do.
(Doing Therapy)
On a completely unrelated note, I just wanted to say that MJ is one of my best friends.
(Doing Therapy)
The skilled fighter has the advantage. The rest is up to luck and choices.
(That was basically just a short version of Brock's post, wasn't it? Oh well. I only had a few minutes.)
Edit: Now if the skilled fighter had 1@3 Strength AND Hand/Eye AND Intuition, and the strong fighter had 2@5 Strength AND Hand/Eye AND Intuition, then things would be more nearly equal. But that's not what you asked . . .
Heh, Scott, that Edit is ALSO a short version of what I said.
Oh, so it's hand/eye and intuition, eh? Huh, I really though Agility would play a part. overall bodily coordination, you know.
What I think Brock and Scott are skirting around lies in your statement "all else being equal".
Brock is right that a martial strike value is only part strength. The other two parts are the hand/eye (being able to hit where you want) and the intuition (being able to predict the best angle of attack for where the opponent will be when you get there).
When you said 2@5 Strength and 1@3 SAL versus 1@3 strength and 2@5 SAL, your statement "all else being equal" raised the question of what "all else" meant. Here's what I mean:
- Fighter 1 has 2@5 strength and 1@3 SAL, while fighter 2 has 1@3 strength and 2@5 SAL. Both have 1@5 hand/eye and 1@5 intuition, and 7@ bod biases. Both have 1@5 agility, too. Fighter 1 had a 1@2 density, but if all else is equal fighter 2 must also have a 1@2 density. Fighter 1's MSV is (2@5+1@5+1@5)/3=55/3=1@8, to which add 1@3 SAL+2x7@ bias+2@5 BRA (his strength). That gives us 70% minus TV, which is (1@5 intuition+1@5 agility+1@2 density)/3=42/3=1@4, for 56% chance to hit. He gets one roll per minute and does damaging damage, 1 to 3 intensities. Fighter 2's MSV is (1@3+1@5+1@5)/3=43/3=1@4, to which we add the 2@5 SAL+2x7@ bias+BRA--and since you said everything else was equal, they must both have 2@5 will power so that Fighter 2 also has a 2@5 BRA which does not benefit fighter 1 who already has a 2@5 BRA for his strength. This makes fighter 2's chance to hit 79% minus the same 1@4 TV for 65% chance to hit, with two swings a minute, doing dangerous damage for a potential of 1 to 7 intensities per hit. The skilled fighter has a serious edge here, because everything else was made equal.
- Taking it a different way, though, Fighter 1 has has the 2@5 strength and 1@3 SAL, and his intuition and hand/eye are both 2@1. That gives him a 67/3=2@3 MSV. Fighter 2 can have that 2@1 intuition and hand/eye, but with a 1@3 strength he has only 54/3=1@8 MSV. Also, if the will power and agility are 1@5, then fighter 1 has his 2@3 MSV+1@3 SAL+2x7@ bias+2@5 BRA=75 minus the TV which here is (1@5 agility +2@1 intuition+1@1 density)/3=47/3=1@6 leaving a 59% chance to hit, and he gets two attacks at dangerous level, 1 to 6 intensities. Fighter 2, meanwhile, has the 1@8 MSV+2@5 SAL+2x7@ bias+his BRA, which is going to be 1@5 this time, 72 minus the TV of the fighter with the 1@5 agility+1@5 intuition+1@2 density=42/3=1@4, 54%. The fight is much more even, but the stronger fighter has a 5% better chance of landing a blow, and that 5% is at the top end, meaning the extra intensity of damage is likely to be done. Further, we've established a 1@5 will power, but have not looked at stamina and resistance, but there is a 1 intensity difference in density (because if you have a 2@5 strength it increases your density one intensity), and that gives fighter 1 a 25% chance of having one extra intensity of damage value, which can make or break the fight.
So it's never quite as simple as you suggest.
--M. J. Young
MJ is right on the fact that I skirted the above; I don't have the book and don't know all the modifiers well enough to do the math. I'd have missed something.
What MJ said, but also note they use different fighting styles:
"Schoolyard boxing" vs. fast defensive weapon adverse kick punch and throw based style; those modifiers count too.
I did overlook the mods of the styles. My own inattention--I noticed that "schoolyard boxing" was named, but when I read "all other things being equal" I neglected to note that the other style was named. I would not usually consider "schoolyard boxing" to be a style, but I did in this case, probably because I conflated the two, and because he was given an SAL at it. I would not give an SAL at fighting unless it qualified as a style. The fact that you've been in a fight does not really make you an experienced fighter. I was in quite a few as a boy, never voluntarily, and gained no skill from it.
--M. J. Young
It was a thought that I had. A guy with 2@5 strength wouldn't necessarily know how to fight. He would likely be relying on the fact that he knows he can hit really hard. Hence, 1@3 schoolyard brawling. Not boxing, brawling. Boxing is something you do in a ring. Brawling has no rules. If you've been in a fight on a playground, then you have a SAL at schoolyard brawling. I was just thinking what would happen is our imagine 2@5 strength who can't really fight went up against someone half his size who had a black belt. Mr. 2@5 strength would be thinking it would be an easy victory. He doesn't realize that he really doesn't know how to fight, and gets his backside handed to him.
And as far as "Everything else being equal" I just didn't want to sit here and write up a bunch of imagined stats for a fight that is only going to happen in my imagination, so I thought that would make it more simple. I guess it made it more difficult.
If you can have an SAL at fighting, it is a martial arts style. It might be a poor one, with lousy modifiers, but it will give you a damage category bonus. It means that you learned how to fight and so can use some amount of knowledge when you're fighting.
I don't know if you're familiar with Bullwhip Griffin (nor even if that's how it was spelled), but something like what you're suggesting applied to him. He was an east coast butler who went west for the gold rush. He collected a bit of gold dust, and was carrying it in the tips of his white gloves when they were robbed. One of the bandits made a joke about the picture of the girl in his luggage, and he slugged the guy, which gave him a reputation for a powerful punch. That reputation got him challenged to a fight--best fighter of another mining camp against him. He accepted the challenge because he'd read a book about boxing, and thought he understood the basic principles. During the course of the fight it was obvious that if the other guy--a huge bruiser--ever connected, the fight would be over; but Bullwhip kept weaving and dodging and landing punches on weak spots, particularly the guy's jaw, until the guy went down without having connected. So it could go that way. Of course, it could be that the unskilled fighter lands the lucky shot, but unless he's got a 2@ MSV it's only going to be annoying.
--M. J. Young
MJ, if you only knew how much meaningless crap I haven't posted lately....
(Doing Therapy)
MJ said if you have to explain the joke, it must not be funny. I was about to post a really lengthy thing about some inane, completely unrelated topic. This, and all futures postings of the above, are to remind myself of this. It's kind of to record progress. You won't see it very often.