Just to be clear, I'm completely serious. Drop a non-involvement player into a world which requires involvement. See what happens. Say whatever you want about how it's a bad idea, until someone actually does it, I'm not convinced. So instead of getting the Vorgo, I become a zombie bounty hunter. Are the referee's brain muscles not up to the challenge of running that? That's about the only reason not to do it, in my humble opinion.
(Doing Therapy)
They already did. Pearl Harbor. Total disaster. heh.
John, I have run story worlds in which some very talented players have taken their characters in surprising and interesting directions. It is not going to happen with you in Vorgo, for several reasons.
One of those reasons is that Vorgo is one of the five worlds (if you count Tropical Island) I always use at convention demos; that means there is a solid chance that someone will show up on this board any day and tell me that I left him in Quest for the Vorgo and he'd like to pick up from there. It is important to the promotion of the game that someone coming to this site find games happening in worlds of several different kinds, and thus the less duplication I can manage the better.
Another reason is that one of the best parts about running that world for me is that the player who successfully retrieves the Vorgo and heroically dies in battle against the undead sets up the contingent scenario, the world that comes later which is known as Mystery of the Vorgo. Only one person has ever played that scenario here, and I'm eager to run it again (in large part because it has multiple endings based on multiple clue sets, and I'd really like to see someone solve another of the possible answers). But if at the outset you are determined not to be that heroic character, it would be nearly impossible for me to set up the opening scene where your statue in the museum is holding the Vorgo. So your disinclination to follow the story immediately creates my disinterest in seeing what you do with it. The first part, about a zombie hunter, is to me rather dull--you get those all the time in hundreds of role playing games. It's the part where you have to solve the theft from the museum before the plodding police pin the purloining on you that is the really interesting part of that "module", and that's the part you'll avoid completely by your plan.
And a third reason is that if I want you to fight against undead, I've got a world particularly designed to support that. Eric and David both played in it, and did very well. Adam is in it in an early time period. You've encountered a slice of it in the first novel. I would send you there, to fight vampires and ghouls, whether in the modern era, or in the Arthurian age, or in the pre-Columbian period, or in the far-flung future. That's a great world for that, and you might do well there. But if I let you turn Vorgo into that, I'm back to the problem that I've got two worlds I can't use for someone else, because you've turned one into the other.
And a fourth reason is, as I've told you before, I prefer for players to have no clue where they are when they start a world. Thus if I had already decided you were next going to Vorgo (which I had not), and you said you wanted to go there, I would scrap it immediately and come up with something else completely different for you. So don't tell me where you want to go; it only limits where I can send you next.
--M. J. Young
Regarding Quest for the Vorgo. Granted, I have yet to referee a single game in my life, but to me, things get old kind of quickly. Yeah, every time it's going to be different, but it's still Priest "We summoned you to retrieve the Vorgo" Verser "Sure, where do I sign up?" After running that that way a couple of times, I think it would get a little bit boring (for me) and when this happens Priest "We summoned you to retrieve the Vorgo" Verser "Eat my shorts man." and storms out of the room, I would be relieved. Finally, something completely different. Something I've not yet done. Do you at least understand what I mean by that?
(Doing Therapy)
...John...I don't know the storyline of Quest for the Vorgo-Oh wait, now I do. Please don't spell out storyline for worlds without saying something along the lines of spoiler alert. It's mildly annoying to me.
As to an actual response-What MJ is saying is what happens after you storm out? Sure, that is one interesting scene, but after that all there is to do (from the sounds of it) is kill enemies or watch the world die. Either of those can be done in another world that is made FOR that. Vorgo sounds like the world for the fantasy of being the prophesied hero come to life at the last minute to heroically save the world from disaster, which is admittedly a cool premise. What you want is the fantasy of being Rorschach from the Watchmen-
"...And the world will look up and shout 'Save us!'. And I'll look down and whisper...'No.'" -Rorscach, dark hero, the Watchmen.
-Which is about being a hero, yes, but a callous one who never compromises and does things his own way. A true lone wolf. Who doesn't mind killing a thousand people to save a million. Also a cool fantasy, but not one I could ever see ME becoming. Does that make sense?
Yeah, that makes sense. And I know who Rorschach is. I saw Watchmen. Still though, it would be SOMETHING different. Granted, I really don't know what I'm talking about, but how many great discoveries were made by a man who didn't really know what he was talking about?
More than one
Brock, do you know who Fernando Perrado is? Probably not. He was a member of the Uruguayan rugby team which got stranded in the Andes mountains. (See also, Alive, Alive 20 years later) Fernando led the expedition through the Andes mountains which resulted in the remaining survivors being rescued. By all accounts, he's a hero. There's no one on earth who would say that he wasn't. When questioned about it though, he said "I didn't know a book was going to be written. I didn't know a movie was going to be made. I didn't want to be called a hero, I just wanted to live."
Now that I think about it, Fernando was "That Guy." MJ talks about this a lot. That Guy is the guy who can fix the problem, because no one else can or is willing to. Fernando was That Guy.
Two points:
1. In my visit to Blake's 7 I took the first chance I could to go elsewhere than the story would likely go because I'm not good at solving mysteries.
2. It may be my own personality, and it may be Tadeusz's, but he's getting less violent. Part of that is if you get more power, you start thinking about ways to solve the problem mercifully, and you feel less threatened so 'kill em' responses are less likely.
The countervailing trend, though, is that as you get more powerful "kill em" responses also get far easier, and you can actually do enough killing to at least make your problems go away.
you can actually do enough killing to at least make your problems go away.
"There is no problem in the world that can't be solved with the appropriate amount of C-4."
Rocky (Guy I used to work with)
Sounds like my friend CJ. He'd kill his own grandmother for 100 bucks and a cheeseburger. He's said as much himself.
Rocky was in Vietnam. I don't think he ever really came home.
The following is a series of posts further discussing gamer psychology. My source is the fourth edition of the dungeon master's guide for dungeons and dragons. All credit goes to them.
The subject is player motivations.
Note to MJ. There is a LOT of info below you probably already know. It's interesting, but if you need to save time you should probably skim. Your call, though.
First profile
Actor
The actor likes to pretend to be her character. She emphasizes character development that has nothing to do with numbers and powers, trying to make her character
seem to be a real person in the fantasy world. She enjoys interacting with the rest of the group, with characters and monsters in the game world, and with the
fantasy world in general by speaking “in character” and describing her character’s actions in the first person. The actor values narrative game elements over
mechanical ones. Unlike the storyteller, she values her character’s personality and motivations over other story elements.
An actor . . .
? Provides PC background, emphasizing personality.
? Plays according to her character’s motivations.
? Prefers scenes where she can portray her character.
? Often prefers social encounters to fights.
Engage the actor by . . .
? Facilitating her PC’s personality and background
development.
? Providing roleplaying encounters.
? Emphasizing her character’s personality at times.
? Recruiting her to help create narrative campaign elements.
Be sure that the actor doesn’t . . .
? Bore the other players by talking to everyone and
everything.
? Justify disruptive actions as being “in character.”
second profile
Explorer
An explorer loves to see new places in the fantasy world and to meet the residents of such places, fair and foul. All the explorer needs is the promise of an interesting
locale or different culture, and off he goes to see that place. The explorer wants to experience the wonders the game world has to offer. He also wants to know that
there’s more out there to find. He presses for details: proper names of characters and places, descriptions of the environment, and some idea of what’s over the
next hill. He’s sometimes interested in the adventure plot and his character’s motivations. (The explorer is close kin to both the actor and the storyteller.) The
wonder of new discoveries is what is key to keeping the explorer happy.
An explorer . . .
? Seeks out new experiences in the game’s setting.
? Likes learning hidden facts and locating lost items and
places.
? Enjoys atmosphere as much as combat and story.
? Advances the plot by being willing to move ever on.
Engage the explorer by . . .
? Including encounter elements that call for exploration.
? Rewarding curiosity and willingness to explore.
? Providing rich descriptions, and using cool maps and props.
? Recruiting him to map for the party.
Be sure that the explorer doesn’t . . .
? Use knowledge of the game world to his own advantage.
? Bore the other players or exhaust you with his thirst for
detail.
Third profile
Instigator
An instigator enjoys making things happen. She has no patience for careful planning or deliberation. She’ll open an obviously trapped chest “just to see what happens.” She provokes authority figures and opens dungeon doors to bring more monsters into an already difficult fight. The instigator loves the vicarious thrill of taking enormous risks and sometimes just making bad choices. The instigator can be disruptive, but she can also be a lot of fun for the other players. Things rarely grind to
a halt with an instigator in the group, and the stories that get retold after the game session often revolve around whatever crazy thing the instigator did this
week.
An instigator . . .
? Likes to make things happen.
? Takes crazy risks and makes deliberately bad choices.
? Thrives in combat and dislikes having nothing to do.
? Takes decisive action when things grind to a halt.
Engage the instigator by . . .
? Including objects and encounters that invite
experimentation.
? Letting her actions put the characters in a tight spot but not
kill them all.
? Including encounters with nonplayer characters who are as
feisty as she is.
Be sure that the instigator doesn’t . . .
? Get the rest of the group killed.
? Attack the other PCs or their allies.
Fourth profile
Power Gamer
A power gamer thrives on gaining levels and loves the cool abilities that come with those levels. He defeats monsters to take their stuff and use that stuff against
future enemies. The story and roleplaying are secondary to action and awesome abilities and magic items. Most players have a little power gamer in them. A
couple of the core elements of fun in the D&D game are the accumulation of power and the use of that power to accomplish astonishing deeds. Nothing is wrong with enjoying that in the game.
A power gamer . . .
? Optimizes character attributes for combat performance.
? Pores over supplements for better character options.
? Spends less time on story and roleplaying elements.
? Prefers combat to other kinds of encounters.
Engage the power gamer by . . .
? Stressing story element rewards, such as quest XP.
? U sing a desired magic item as an adventure hook.
? Facilitating access to new options and powers.
? Including encounters that emphasize his PC’s attributes.
Be sure that the power gamer doesn’t . . .
? Become a lot more powerful than the other characters.
? Try to take more than his share of treasure.
? Treat the other characters as his lackeys.
Fifth profile
Slayer
The slayer is like the power gamer, but she is even easier to please. She emphasizes kicking the tar out of monsters. Maybe she does so to let off a little steam in
a safe way, or she likes the joy of feeling superior. Perhaps it’s the pleasure of having the power to mete out punishment to villains. D&D combat is thrilling. Few other aspects of the game put a character in such apparent jeopardy. Beating the bad guys is a clear success. Most players enjoy these D&D elements, but the slayer seeks them foremost.
A slayer . . .
? Optimizes like a power gamer.
? Might pick simple options to get into the action quicker.
? Spends less time on story and roleplaying elements.
? Wants to fight monsters and take bold action all the time.
Engage the slayer by . . .
? Springing an unexpected battle when the slayer looks
bored.
? Making some battles simple and others more complex.
? Vividly describing the havoc the slayer wreaks with powers.
? Recruiting her to track initiative during combat.
Be sure that the slayer doesn’t . . .
? Ruin adventures by killing monsters the characters should
talk to.
? Rush past social and skill challenge encounters to the next
fight.
Sixth profile
Storyteller
The storyteller is a player who prefers the narrative of the game to individual character motivations and personality. This player sees the game as an ongoing
chronicle of events in the fantasy world, and he wants to see where the tale goes.
For the storyteller, the rules are there to support the game’s ongoing story. He believes that when the rules get in the way, the narrative should win. Compromise
for the sake of the story is more important than individual character motivations.
A storyteller . . .
? Often provides an extensive background for his PC.
? Works hard to make sure his character fits the story.
? Likes dramatic scenes and recurring characters.
? Prefers adventures that include at least some plot.
Engage the storyteller by . . .
? Facilitating his PCs background development.
? U sing his background to help define adventures and
nonplayer characters.
? Including at least a little plot in every adventure.
? Recruiting him to record important events and encounters.
Be sure that the storyteller doesn’t . . .
? Insist on making his character the center of the story.
? Dictate other characters’ actions to fit his idea of the story.
Seventh profile
Thinker
A thinker likes to make careful choices, reflecting on challenges and the best way to overcome them. She also enjoys herself most when her planning results in success with minimal risk and use of resources. Solving a challenge in a creative way is more important to the thinker than character power or roleplaying issues. In fact, the thinker might prefer sound tactics to acting in character or straightforward, brute force battle.
A thinker . . .
? Engages any challenge as a puzzle to be solved.
? Chooses her actions carefully for the best possible result.
? Is happy to win without action, drama, or tension.
? Prefers time to consider options over bold action.
Engage the thinker by . . .
? Including encounters that require problem-solving skills.
? Rewarding planning and tactics with in-game benefits.
? Occasionally allowing a smart plan to cause a one-sided
win.
? Recruiting her to help come up with quests.
Be sure that the thinker doesn’t . . .
? Constantly tell the other players what to do.
? Grind the game to a halt when considering tactical options.
Last profile
Watcher
A watcher is a casual player who comes to the game because he wants to be part of the social event. A watcher might be shy or just really laid back. He wants to participate, but he doesn’t really care if he’s deeply immersed, and he doesn’t want to be assertive or too involved in the details of the game, rules, or story. He
enjoys the game by being part of a social circle.
A watcher . . .
? Shows up to be a part of the group.
? Helps calm disputes by not being as attached to the game.
? Often fills a hole in the PC group, facilitating the fun.
Engage the watcher by . . .
? N ever forcing him to be more involved than he wants.
? Accepting that he’s fine with his watcher status.
? Prompting him when he needs it.
Be sure that the watcher doesn’t . . .
? Distract the other players with TV, a video game, or surfing
the Internet.
? Disappear from the table at crucial moments.
Note to MJ
Above is a LOT of information you probably already know. I recommend you skim if you do. This is intended for everyone who doesn't know it, which may or not be be you. It could be a lot of work for you to read all of it carefully. Your call, but just sayin'.
One final note: My various sources have a lot more to say on gamer psychology. I'll post more once the discussion of what's already here is pretty much done. Don't want to flood the thread even more than I have already.
Brock, I want to say thanks for that. I'm familiar with the material but have never taken the time to read it all in detail before now.
However, it really is bad form, at the least, to copy wholesale copyrighted materials to a public forum. In future, please do one of the following:
- Provide links to the material for those who wish to read it.
- Explain the material in your own words (it is the words, not the ideas, that are afforded legal protection).
- Get permission (and post that you did) from the author/copyright holder of the material before you post copies.
As a footnote, I am really irked by the horrible abuse of the English language (and in fact the entire Indo-European language family) which appears in several of these posts: the use of the feminine pronoun to represent persons of unspecified or unknown gender. It is established linguistic protocol that "he", like "man", represents people generally, and "she", like "woman", is gender-limited. If you write "she", I will be constantly wondering who "she" is, and looking for the antecedent somewhere. (I once heard that a local church had been looking for a youth minister, and I asked one of the leaders there about it. He said that they had set aside money in the budget, but in their search "she" had not yet appeared. I immediately concluded that they were looking for a woman for the position, and that I would not be considered. I still do not know whether that conclusion was correct, but either way my opinion of that church and its representative was damaged: either they were discriminating as to the gender of the candidates considered for a gender-neutral position, or their representative failed to use one of the simplest rules of English grammar correctly.)
Finally, I find these "types" to be somewhat less than useful. On the one hand, they fail truly to grasp what it is that motivates players in their character choices (why do they do this?). On the other hand, they make the mistake that most "big games" make, of trying to instruct the referee on how to cater to all interests at once. One reason Magic: the Gathering so decimated Dungeons & Dragons is that the latter was attempting to broaden its play to appeal to every gamer type while the former targeted gamists, perhaps the largest single group within the whole, and so siphoned them away from the watered-down diversified play of mainline role playing games into a purely gamist experience.
I address most of this in Theory 101: Creative Agenda, including the core concepts of what motivates players plus the problem of conflict between player styles and motivations.
All that said, yes, there is some value to these types in terms of observational categories. I just don't think they really get to the core of the issues.
--M. J. Young
the use of the feminine pronoun to represent persons of unspecified or unknown gender. It is established linguistic protocol that "he", like "man", represents people generally, and "she", like "woman", is gender-limited.
Even more for the feminazis to whine about.
However, please note, vehicles are generally referred to as "She".
I think that goes back to ships, which may have been designated "she" by the wives who felt that their husbands were running off with that other woman.
--M. J. Young
If you think that the TerraNova security forces are going to be your problem, you are way off base. Your death lies elsewhere, my friend.
MJ wrote this on the second page. It's just been running through my mind. MJ, what I meant here is that I cannot imagine a scenario in which disaster strikes with the TerraNova security NOT involved. If I'm engaging whatever it is which is coming, and using weapons, the security will try to arrest me. I won't get arrested. So, while I know nothing about what is going to happen, I cannot imagine a conflict of some sort with the TerraNova security NOT happening, even if it's just rewarding me for doing their job for them.
(Doing Therapy)
Hmm. I thought it was the same as fanfiction, as long as you specify who came up with it, and the info doesn't allow the reader to play the game without purchasing it, it would be fine. Sorry. I'll bear that in mind.
Brock, maybe I'm just being paranoid, and you should probably get confirmation from MJ before you do this, but it might be a good idea to edit those posts to be blank. Just to be on the safe side. Like I said, check with MJ before you do anything like that though.
MJ, you said that you can copyright words, but not ideas? So if I were to write a novel about an insane whaling ship captain named Ahib who was chasing a white humpback whale named Dicky Moe who had ripped off his hand, it would be legal? I was just wondering how that worked.
MJ has the power to delete posts. I'll leave it up to him.
John,
There is a parody book called "Bored of the Rings". I don't know how closely you are allowed to go with similar stuff, legally that is. I do know that you can shave pretty close if you're obviously making fun of the source material.
I do know that such rewriting is generally considered inferior (However, I'm not at all sure I agree with that.) There is a saying 'Shakespeare was the greatest RE-writer in the English language'. Writers are kinda expected to reinvent the wheel. It might be better if we went with the ancient theory of plagiarism....copying without adding something to the old material.
I've read a few books that I could have fairly simply improved them if I'd been legally allowed to do so. Sometimes you find a good book, but it has a weak patch in it of a few pages. Other times, an author is pretty good, but he doesn't know how to handle one aspect of writing. In both cases allowing a 'Book by Eric, Improved by John' version to be sold would be a benefit to readers. As an example...
Let's say I wrote an action novel. You read it, and like it, but you note that my descriptions of guns and their effects seem a bit vague, and sometimes just plain wrong. You edit a dozen scenes, add one or two more scenes, and in the end, the book reflects your much greater knowledge of guns. Maybe you only added five thousand words to my sixty thousand, but you boosted the book from 'pretty decent' to 'mildly awesome'. Everyone's better off.
Yeah Eric, I know you're allowed to copy if it's obviously parody. Larry Flint got into trouble for things like that a couple of times. He usually won the cases.
Something I was thinking about regarding character violence. Your mom will try to tell you that "Violence doesn't solve problems". That's complete and utter horse hockey. The thing isn't that violence doesn't solve problems, violence solves problems too well. You're in my way, I shoot you in the head, you're no longer in my way. My problem has been solved. As soon as early man realized how quickly and easily violence could solve his problems, he started trying to figure out better ways to cause violence.
Just remember kids, aside from ending Nazism, Fascism and slavery, war has never solved a single problem.
I agree, but it will likely not happen due to the nature of intellectual properties and the need for money that comes from them. Now, if you could contact the author and they were amenable to help from a total stranger...
Eric, that's why people collaborate.
--M. J. Young
You're also allowed to copy for the purposes of criticism. So, for instance, if you took issue with their player profiling, you could reproduce it as part of a line-by-line criticism.
True. I suppose I ought to engage in such a critique of those posts, but I really don't have the time for it at present.
--M. J. Young