Two
When I versed out of Pearl Harbor, I got into a fight with 2 guys who were trying to put me in a straight jacket. I ain't getting in no straight jacket, especially not since I had been training in boxing for the last year and half with them. Any other kind of restraint, they probably would have taken me. Not a straight jacket though. I honestly think though that I would fight to my death rather than be put into a straight jacket. I could imagine a scenario where I would willingly get put into one, so that doesn't count. (IE, if I were a magician's assistant and he had taught me how to get out of one)
(Doing Therapy)
I'd rather not give the personal example I have, as I feel it would derail my ability to objectively look at the discussion. If I mention the personal point, I'll be defending one of the principles of who I am, not whether these principles could be compromised. That said I'll try and think of an example that could be the corollary idea in someone else and state that. It may take me a while to think of one, as I'm blanking currently. I wanted to reply last night to this but was hoping I'd come up with a more rational response, and one that was a little more satisfying.
That is in response to the first part of your statement, but I have a question that I won't pursue unless you're ok with it, as it's the same basis on your side as I had an issue with a second ago. You said the only thing you know you wouldn't do is sell your soul. Doesn't this fall into the category of "I will never do this"? If you wish not to pursue that line of thought simply say so, as I truly wouldn't want to put someone in a position I myself am uncomfortable with unless they don't have a problem with it.
I was anticipating that, actually. When I said that you could be coerced into doing anything, I meant worldly things. Selling your soul is not a worldly thing.
There are worldly things I would place in the same category. Killing my brother (not you, Paul, my other brother) falls into that category. I can think of nothing that would induce me to knowingly make that choice.*
I'm told I have a good imagination.
____
*Edit: against his will.
So you would kill Paul, but not your other brother? You didn't word that very well.
On statements of "I would never kill such-and-such person", I'm reminded of the early 1860s America. Little thing called The Civil War. Brothers were killing brothers, fathers were killing sons, certainly all of them had made a similar vow, whether knowingly or unknowingly. Or your brother could very well do something which would make you change your mind. Ever seen X-Men Origins, Wolverine? Wolverine and Sabretooth were brothers. In the beginning of the movie, they swore they would always stay side by side. By the end of the movie, they were trying to murder each other. That example is too easy to defeat. Try again.
First, worldly versus non worldly doesn't really matter, it's just which people prioritize higher. Yours happens to be a non worldly while others could be worldly.
Second, not everyone participated in the civil war, and many wouldn't fight for the side they believed in because they were more closely bound to family than loyalty to a side. As such, the civil war only proves that not killing a brother is not everyone's defining characteristic.
As to the brother being someone you didn't expect, at a point it just doesn't matter. He could be the most vile person in the world about to kill you and everyone else but if you have defined enough of who you are based on protecting him, you'll never kill him.
I'm not sure why selling your soul isn't a worldly thing, since your soul is very much something of this world. I take it, though, that what you mean is that you could not be induced to do anything that had potentially eternal negative consequences.
That, though, is itself a matter of perspective. It could be argued that your use of illegal drugs might be "selling your soul"--in some games of Sorcerer, that is one of the definitions of the demon that empowers you--and you're willing to do that for the sake of escaping the pain of your psychotic episodes. It must be concluded that you consider the escape from that pain to be worth the risk that this might have eternal negative consequences--that you are "selling your soul" to the drugs and through them to the demons behind them. Your particular answer to that is that you do not believe there are demons behind the drugs or that you have sold your soul to evil powers by using them. Maybe you are right; I have known enough people who sold their soul to drugs, though, that I am less certain of that. I do know that the devil rarely puts on so bold a face as he did with Faust, usually making his bargains slyly as if he is giving you so much more for so much less, and keeping his name out of the transaction as he works through his agents.
So you apparently would risk the possibility that you are selling your soul in exchange for the possibility that you are escaping your pain. You would never do this if it were blatantly obvious that this is what you were doing, but the deal is seldom blatantly obvious.
Did we send an MP to force you at gunpoint to become involved? I don't see it. I do see that we sent an MP to force you at gunpoint to attend the briefing at which you would have learned where and when you were, after which you might have been offered the option to make an informed decision. You might have spent the attack in the brig, but what of it? You might have spent the attack in the brig of the Arizona, but if the question is whether you are generally committed to non-interference in the affairs of other worlds, that would probably have been the perfect place to have put you: you would know that to stay there would mean versing out, either by the shelling or by the subsequent drowning, and you would have had to decide whether it was more important for you not to interfere with the history of this world or to avoid being killed in the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.
After all, the point was to determine whether you could be induced to become involved, and what that would require. My estimate of what would have been required was completely wrong, but Adam did a much better job with it than I would have done, all things considered. You chose to become involved, because you feared certain consequences which at the time seemed probable to you. They were not eternal consequences; you feared them.
I find it odd that you speak of how the fear of those consequences inhibited your freedom of action. In particular, you were concerned about versing into another world with a lot of broken bones (self-inflicted, not Adam's fault in any way). In your present world, you keep doing things that have potentially very serious consequences. What happens to you if you verse out while a five month old infant? Despite several botches you continue to take this risk.
I've got games to run.
--M. J. Young
That, though, is itself a matter of perspective. It could be argued that your use of illegal drugs might be "selling your soul"--in some games of Sorcerer, that is one of the definitions of the demon that empowers you--and you're willing to do that for the sake of escaping the pain of your psychotic episodes. It must be concluded that you consider the escape from that pain to be worth the risk that this might have eternal negative consequences--that you are "selling your soul" to the drugs and through them to the demons behind them.
Don't give me that bullshit. God put it here, He obviously wanted us to have it.
God put cocaine here, and I've seen lives destroyed by it.
God put arsenic here, but He didn't mean for us to consume it and I'm sure He didn't mean for us to feed it to each other.
Certainly God put your drug of choice here, and perhaps He intended for us to use it. Your arrogance is in your certainty you know how we were supposed to use it. There are a lot of things God put here for which we have found entirely incorrect and dangerous uses, and we have not always recognized the dangers.
The leading citizens of Rome enjoyed the opulence of their wealth by eating off metal dishes, drinking from metal bowls, using metal tableware, all of a metal that the poor could not afford. Of course, madness ran in the families of the nobility, so no one was surprised when their family members went a bit crazy. It also seemed that entering these upper classes subjected one to the madness--those who worked their way into the upper crust were not immune to the insanity. Of course, no one then suspected for a moment that the madness came from eating from those very precious and beautiful lead table settings.
You are persuaded that the drugs are good. Others are persuaded otherwise. Part of your persuasion is that you benefit from them in the escape from pain. You won't listen to those who warn that you are selling your soul to the devil through his agent the drugs. You are persuaded that the benefit outweighs the risk.
That was Faust's problem: he was persuaded that the benefit outweighed the risks. He was cheated in the benefits, though, and realized that the price was greater than he had imagined. That is the way of the devil's deals: they deliver the letter but not the expectation, and they make the price sound so much less than it is.
But setting aside the specifics of your situation, the point here is that you could be induced to sell your soul if you didn't realize you were doing it at the time.
--M. J. Young
God put cocaine here, and I've seen lives destroyed by it.
And dentists use it as a painkiller.
You are persuaded that the drugs are good. Others are persuaded otherwise. Part of your persuasion is that you benefit from them in the escape from pain. You won't listen to those who warn that you are selling your soul to the devil through his agent the drugs. You are persuaded that the benefit outweighs the risk.
Stop reading the bullshit propaganda. And it's not a break from pain. Getting high ignites a psychotic episode. Through that, I teach myself to deal with it. Permanent reduction of the psychosis, not just a break from it. I've been wondering lately if perhaps I feel "normal" now.
Have you ever see The Gods Must Be Crazy? "To the African Bushman, all things are good. Even the deadly cobra. The meat is quite tasty, and the hide make a good belt. You just have to remember to stay away from the pointed end."
What propaganda are you talking about? I read the excerpt you highlighted and MJ's entire post. He pointed out a position some people take on it. The way it was phrased wasn't reminiscent of propaganda, just a perception that doesn't think of drug use highly.
On the page wraparound, the last post doesn't show up until someone else posts behind it. Tell Aaron.
Glantri, he and I have been going round and round about this for years. (Doing Therapy) means that I am, at the time of that writing, having a self-induced psychotic episode. I figured out a way to use the ability to start them as a therapy. I feel thousands of times better than I used to.
I use a certain illegal plant to accomplish this feat. We've been going back and forth about it for a looooong time. This is why I wish MJ was more like the stereotypical man with heavy beard and long hair. A hippie would understand.
(Doing Therapy)
Two
As far as the "Would you do it?" discussion, it's an argument that can't be won. For that sake, and for the sake of MJ who has to read it and take away time from running games, it's probably best to once again agree to disagree.
Glantri, my email is A1nut@insight.rr.com if you want to continue the discussion privately. For MJ's sake though, I think we should drop it from the board discussions.
(Doing Therapy)
So you would kill Paul, but not your other brother? You didn't word that very well.
Nah, that was deliberate. I'll let him think I'm teasing if it'll make him feel better.
I'm fine with dropping it and agreeing to disagree. I didn't expect you to ever agree with me on the topic, just for some reason thought the counterpoint deserved being mentioned. It's been mentioned and discussed perhaps more than I had expected, so I'm happy.
I'd also like to apologize to MJ. It hadn't occurred to me that I was adding to his already substantial workload.
If you want to discuss it at any point in the future though John, you can email me at maw306@lehigh.edu, I just ask that if the discussion continues in emails that one email gets one response, I use the email for school and work so having an organized set of emails is fine but having 3 or 4 would probably grate at me. If you feel you can't do this I'd be willing to make an alternative email to have discussions with you off the board. In that case it doesn't matter to me how many emails you post in succession.
I'd also like to apologize to MJ. It hadn't occurred to me that I was adding to his already substantial workload.
Yeah, so let's take it to email.
Two
Scott, now that I know you're reading, did you see what I put down about how this wouldn't get out of my head? No one really commented on that. I kind of wanted some thoughts from some people about it.
(Doing Therapy)
Three
I haven't woken up with this in my head for a while. Kind of feels good. I wonder sometimes if how I feel is what the rest of the world considers "normal" now. Feel a lot better, that's for certain.
(Doing Therapy)
Mike--those who take my side in any discussion (or tend toward my side) do not add as much to my workload as they take from it. No apology necessary.
--M. J. Young
When I said I wanted some thoughts about how this affected my psychosis, I was serious. I would like to know what some of you think about that. Especially Scott and MJ. It would mean a lot to me if you would reply to that.
Two
MJ, I've been wondering for a while. Why didn't you tell me that Adam was going to be taking over my game at any point BEFORE I versed out? I didn't find out about that until it happened. Don't you think I had the right to know I was going to be switching referees?
(Doing Therapy)
John, it struck me yesterday that it is not possible for you to allow anyone else to have the last word on any subject on which you become fixated. Therefore it is not logical for me to attempt to answer you with the expectation that my answer will be sufficient, and thus any answer I post only assures that I will have to make another post on the subject.
I am going to attempt to cut back on my workload by not answering you as regularly, but letting your final questions stand as your last word.
As to whether you had the right to know you were going to be switching referees, it was said up front to all players that I made every effort to find other referees for them and that they were expected to learn to become referees over time and take other players. I don't usually know who will be moving to whom or when; I don't know when people will verse out or who will be available. Yours was already an unusual situation because I knew all of that well in advance--but that did not give you any right to know anything about what was going to happen to your character in the future. You did know that you would be switching referees; you simply did not know when or to whom. I knew who would be taking your game and where you would be going, but not when, and the level of certainty was only about 80% anyway, because it was always possible that the person who was to take your game would become unavailable before you versed out.
So no, I do not think you have a right to know that. But just in case you're not persuaded, let me inform you now that I will be switching you to another referee at the very first opportunity I find to do so--which is what I say to all my forum players except my own sons, who are special cases.
--M. J. Young
John, it struck me yesterday that it is not possible for you to allow anyone else to have the last word on any subject on which you become fixated. Therefore it is not logical for me to attempt to answer you with the expectation that my answer will be sufficient, and thus any answer I post only assures that I will have to make another post on the subject.
You sound like that question offended you a little. I was genuinely curious. I didn't recall anything said about switching referees. That's not saying it didn't happen, that's saying I didn't recall it happening, there's a difference. I wasn't trying to argue anything, I was just trying to get a better handle on how this runs. I just didn't realize that was a "normal" practice for you.
(Doing Therapy)
Two
Now that I have read and considered your reply, I do remember you saying that we would be passed off. It feels like one of those "D'oh" moments that Homer Simpson has, asking such a stupid question. Really, I just didn't remember that you had said that. Don't you ever forget little things like that?
Why won't anyone answer me on how this affected my psychosis? I would have thought, having had that explained to you, you would understand why I can't let anyone else have the last word on something on which I have become fixated. These last two months have been amazing. I actually can wake up, and have no idea what my first thoughts will be. It's such a refreshing change of pace, you have no idea. I think the last time that happened was the day you threatened to suspend my game, and I suspended it for you. Such a relief. Four years is a record for killing a psychotic episode. I have some of these that go back more than 25 years.
(Doing Therapy)
Why won't anyone answer me on how this affected my psychosis?
For my part, I find that I have very little to say. I'm glad that you're making progress, of course. Beyond that, I'm not sure what thoughts I have to offer.
Also, I tend to wait a little while before responding to posts of yours if it seems like the topic is sensitive or the post particularly impassioned; oftentimes you'll change your mind on a subject or edit a post away, and so it would be somewhat inconvenient for you if I had responded immediately.
For my part, I find that I have very little to say. I'm glad that you're making progress, of course. Beyond that, I'm not sure what thoughts I have to offer.
I see. I guess I was just fishing for support of it. I know it drove you all crazy at times. You got the better end of the stick, I assure you.
oftentimes you'll change your mind on a subject or edit a post away, and so it would be somewhat inconvenient for you if I had responded immediately.
I didn't realize anyone else had noticed that. (Laughing)
(Doing Therapy)
Two
For some strange reason, for the past couple of days, I've had the Juicyfruit jingle playing in my head when I wake up. It's a catchy tune, I don't mind it at all.
Three
In a sense, you guys care more about me than my own mother does. This is hardly the only thing which won't get out of my head which I talk to people about. My own mother won't talk to me about things like this that won't get out of my head.
I can't get over it. That's what the therapy is. It's about getting over things. Learning from it. My own mother won't even talk to me about this stuff. You guys care more about me than she does, in a sense.
(Doing Therapy)
Your mother has been dealing with you for a much longer time than all of us combined, I expect, and further has to do so in person and without the ability to retreat and return later.
Don't be so hard on her.
--M. J. Young
MJ, I know I've run this point into the ground, but it's the psychosis. I need you to understand. It's like what the evil Genie said in the Aladdin sequel. "The genie might not be able to kill you, but it's amazing what you can live through." I wasn't willing to kill an MP in cold blood, but you would have been amazed at how far I would have gone to stay out of that scenario if you were expecting that I would get involved. The opener of the MP instantly pushed me to the line I wasn't willing to cross to stay out of it. The way it did play out with the crash, you're kind of fortunate that it gave me a psychotic episode. You probably would have (incorrectly) assumed that I had intended to warn them all along, and the crash was just an unfortunate side-effect of a cocky verser. You would have been AMAZED at how far I would have gone to stay out of that scenario if I had known where I was BEFORE the MP got there. (Emphasizing, not yelling) I just wasn't willing to kill an MP in cold blood. However, you would have been AMAZED at how far I would have gone. Take the fear of versing out with 40 broken bones and turn it into how much I want to stay out of it, backed up by a van full of semi-automatic weapons. If I had known where I was beforehand, that's how it would have played out. It's not nearly as bad as it used to be. I mean, it's been at least 4 days since I posted anything about it. That's a nice improvement, don't you think?
(Doing Therapy)
Two
And I seem to recall you saying something about versing out as an infant. I don't want to do that, believe me. I really want to play this world. The thing is though, if there exists a human with 3@ charisma and animal magnetism, it's an infant. Someone would take me in. Worst case scenario, I'd starve to death in every world I landed in, until I landed in one where I could use that Psionic 14@5 Control Age that Lauren taught me. Then everything would be back to normal. It wouldn't be pleasant, but I think I've been through worse. I'm not terribly worried about it. (This is all supposed to be kind of humorous, BTW)
(Doing Therapy)
MJ,
If you want someone to run a world, I can. Of course, you know my ah, 'system' for dealing with the rules. I've taken a year break from 'Worldwalker: the Campaign' which vacation break just finished up. It doesn't seem as if anyone is over there, and I'm not unhappy about that because I don't really want to jump in on a full work load of five or six players, but one or two could be fine, and it would be easier if everything was concentrated here.
Well, thank you, Eric. I'll keep that in mind for the next verse-out, whoever it is.
--M. J. Young
Note to self: The read is after you.
(Doing Therapy)
MJ, I'm just curious. You said some time ago that you would also use the opener of the MP if you were running that scenario. Would you still use that opener, or would you pick a different way to open the scenario? In light of everything that's happened since, I thought you might have had a change of heart.
If you wanted to see how far I would go to stay out of that scenario, the opening of the MP completely killed any chance you had of seeing it. Bad choice I think. It wasn't a bad choice of scenarios really. Adam just used the single worst possible way to open it.
I wouldn't have had a problem with not warning them if I had been healthy. Lock me in the brig of the Arizona. Go ahead. Since I still don't know what that was, and I certainly didn't know then, why would I be worried about that? If I'm locked in a cell, I'll either verse out or have a chance to escape in the attack. Again, no big deal. Knowing where I was and shooting it out with the MPs on the other hand..... Then I think you would have learned something.
(Doing Therapy)
The U.S.S. Arizona was a battleship that was sunk with all hands in the harbor. The current memorial is called the Arizona Memorial, and is built on the water above the ship. It is the best-known part of the Pearl Harbor casualties.
The question of whether I would or would not use the same opening were I to run this scenario is both moot and unanswerable. It is not possible for me to run it again for the first time for you. Were I to run it for someone else, I would consider how to open it for them; if I were to run it for you, I would consider how to run a repeat of the same scenario for you. In neither case does that preclude the MP opener, nor does it guarantee it.
I believe that what I meant by "I would use the MP opening" is that it is a decent opening I would have as an option for how to start the scenario, not that I was locked into such a choice. Nothing in this has taken that off that list.
--M. J. Young
I see, so it would be an opening you would consider. What did you think of that list of openers I put down? Should I publish that? That opening for me again, you would be dealing with a dead MP. I just had a thought. If they recovered 9mm bullets from his corpse, they would probably think I was a German assassin or something. The 9mm was just being developed by Germany at this time. That could make for an interesting manhunt after I escaped.
And in this scenario, since the police officer is likely the T-1000, I'll probably hit him with an explosive Shredder shell.
(Doing Therapy)
Two
Do you still think Adam did the right thing as far as how to introduce me to that scenario? I don't think there's any way you could possibly say "Yes" but you've surprised me before.
Before you answer, please do not forget that everything you have subsequently learned from it was due to the psychotic episode, which likely would not have happened with a different opener. Thus, if Adam did do the right thing, then you think the psychotic episode was a good thing.
What did you think of that list of openers I put down? Should I publish that?
If you're asking my opinion as a writer, I would recommend cleaning it up a bit into a more cohesive article before releasing it. If you're asking my opinion as a Gaming Outpost moderator, yeah, we need content, and more articles is a good thing, so go for it.
And in this scenario, since the police officer is likely the T-1000, I'll probably hit him with an explosive Shredder shell.
Ah, but read between the lines. John ran from the police officer who was looking for him. Why? He has a history of trouble with the police. When the T-1000 showed up at his foster parents' home their reaction was "what did he do now?" They were quite accustomed to police looking for their recently-acquired errant foster child. If you follow his pattern, you'll be interacting with the police quite a bit--and if you don't, you won't be developing the skills he had. Catch-22, really, isn't it?
Look at the bright side: the prison in which they will put you for murdering a cop probably won't be in a nuclear strike zone. On the other hand, when the T-1000 shows up to kill you there, it will be a relatively short story.
Do you still think Adam did the right thing as far as how to introduce me to that scenario? I don't think there's any way you could possibly say "Yes" but you've surprised me before.
I don't think there's any way I could possibly say "No", either, because it would mean that Adam did the wrong thing, and he certainly did not do the wrong thing. But let's take it apart.
- The MP opening was a legitimate and effective approach to giving you the information you would need to decide whether to become involved. Therefore it was a "right" opening for anyone about whom as much was known as was known about you at that point.
- What flows from a player's mishandling of an opening gambit is not the fault of the referee who makes the opening; therefore Adam is not responsible for anything stemming from your psionic assault on the MP. The consequences of your response to his opening are not his fault, and therefore he was not wrong because of what you did.
- The outcome of your actions was not predictable. You might think it perfectly obvious that you would have done what you did, but you did not anticipate the consequences of those choices and thus you cannot say that the outcome was predictable. No one predicted it; no one could see from the moment the MP appeared that this was going to go badly. It went badly in part because of honest die rolls and in part because of arrogant player actions. Neither of those are Adam's fault.
- The level of the botch was not inappropriate. A TK Pulse might be a relatively "safe" skill, but the operation of an automobile is not and you were interfering with the latter. Adam would have been justified in rolling for the skill of the driver every time you bumped him with a TK pulse to see whether he maintained control of the vehicle. He was equally justified in not doing so. However, if you were using the TK Pulse to tap repeatedly at a nuclear explosive and it exploded, you could not argue that the TK Pulse isn't supposed to be dangerous enough to cause an explosion. Nor can you argue that it can't cause an automotive accident--players use it for exactly that kind of effect at times, and in your case it was not the intended effect but a reasonable consequence nonetheless.
- There might be a million other potentially "right" ways to open this scenario; that does not make Adam's opening "wrong". He could have done it differently, but that is always true about every world.
In conclusion, yes, I think Adam used a correct and right opening for your world.
I am not saying that your psychotic episode was good. I'm saying that it was not his fault nor the fault of the opening. If you sincerely believe that his act was the cause of your episode, I would ask that you resign from the game. Years ago it was argued that role playing games might destabilize unstable people whose grasp of reality was challenged. My answer then was that everyone should be careful about with whom they play. If you're that person whose grasp on reality means that role playing games are dangerous for you, I would rather not be the cause of your problems.
If it's your fault, you can do something about it so it doesn't happen in the future. If it's Adam's fault, when Adam did nothing wrong, then no one can fix it, and you should not continue to play lest something worse happen to you.
--M. J. Young
Ah, but read between the lines. John ran from the police officer who was looking for him. Why? He has a history of trouble with the police. When the T-1000 showed up at his foster parents' home their reaction was "what did he do now?" They were quite accustomed to police looking for their recently-acquired errant foster child. If you follow his pattern, you'll be interacting with the police quite a bit--and if you don't, you won't be developing the skills he had. Catch-22, really, isn't it?
Um, no. John Connor got into trouble with the police after Sarah got put into the mental institution. Prior to that, they were in Mexico training. When Sarah got busted for trying to destroy CyberDyne, and John was taken into foster care, John was using the skills he had learned in training. That's what got him into trouble. Since, in this story, Sarah isn't going to try to destroy CyberDyne, because I will tell her the results of that, Sarah won't go to the institution, and thus, John will never get into trouble with the police. If a police officer IS coming for him, it will be because it's the T-1000.
If I was a child I might allow myself to be arrested. Probably just get a slap on the wrist. As an adult, I hope the cop was suicidal before that.
In conclusion, yes, I think Adam used a correct and right opening for your world.
What I was asking is, did he use the correct and right opening FOR ME. If I wasn't psychotic, you probably would have assumed that I was intending to warn them all along, and you never would have found out what my reasons were. If I had known where I was and fought the MPs, you would have had no question what my reasons were. If I was at the base, healthy and waiting for the attack, I'd have no fear. What's the challenge in waiting to die if you know you're not going to stay dead? A different opening, you would have learned a lot more, and learned it in game like you were supposed to.