The below would probably be questions that relate to rift sealing ritual or a similar skill in the future.
Is thought projection or telepathy considered as native tongue?
Would it considered as loud if the distance of the thought projection is the same as speaking loudly?
What would be the penalty and bonus for a unison prayer?
If at least one person is expected and one person participates would this penalize the skill?
What are the bonus for additional participants?
If the participants are asked to say things in their own language, would this be considered as native language for the participants but is a language other than character native tongue relative to the caster?
Would it count as spoken loudly if the participants are the one who does it?
Would the participants body involvement counts as additional bonus?
If the participants are asked to spin around while carrying the body of the caster, would this count as full body involvement?
If the ritual is physically exhausting for the participants other than the caster, would this count as additional bonus?
The caster would not be "physically" exhausted because the caster is in spirit form but would feel exhausted if the caster returns to the body. If that is the case, would that counts as additional bonus?
*****
Edit:
Does the rift sealing ritual penalized for including a second skill?
If it is then what is the second skill?
This is a bit awkward--it is inappropriate for me to help a player design a ritual, or tell him what bonuses he ought to get for what. It is not inappropriate for me to discuss such questions with a referee trying to understand the mechanics of the game. I'm going to approach this from the latter perspective, and attempt not to address anything that is directly significant to your game.
Is thought projection or telepathy considered as native tongue?
I would say that to my mind, they are the same as thinking but not speaking, and thus the spell would take a penalty for not having a verbal component. Against this there would be a bonus for the requirement of the successful use of a skill--you must successfully activate the telepathy/thought projection skill for the primary skill to have any chance of working, and you get one shot at it. I would also allow a bonus for appropriateness in the thoughts expressed, if they were appropriate and there was not any other bonus for appropriateness built into the ritual. Since no words are spoken, no other speech-based bonuses can apply.
Would it considered as loud if the distance of the thought projection is the same as speaking loudly?
Although this question may have been mooted by the previous answer, I feel it necessary to clarify a distinction. The default for telepathy and thought projection is "narrowcasting", that is, targeting select individual minds with a penalty for select multiple minds. There is a "broadcasting" variant which attempts to convey thoughts to all minds within range. If it is telepathy, it is not the equivalent of speaking, and it must be made clear that if you were to perform a broadcast telepathy skill (if the referee allowed such a configuration without prohibitive penalties) you would be opening two-way communication to every mind of the appropriate class (human, humanoid, animal, alien are the four classes, not counting self) within range. You would be very fortunate if you were able to complete the ritual with that much potential distraction. An open channel to all classes would have to be at the bias of that of the highest class. As for broadcast thought projection, it would face the penalties for the highest-penalty class present, and the referee might require that the alien minds present must be able to "hear" the thoughts for them to be considered "spoken". I would not normally allow thought projection to stand for speech, but might make an exception for a creature for whom thought projection was its normal mode of speech. (I know I said I wasn't going to comment on your game, but it has been my impression for quite a while that it is Gamma World on the other side of that rift, and that is an example of a world in which thought projection is the normal mode of speech for a large number of indigs. That does not make it the natural mode of speech for you.)
I do not think that I would differentiate "loud" on the basis of range. The point of "loud" is primarily that the enemy can hear it and understand it--you can't whisper the words under your breath and hope he doesn't know you're casting a spell, but must cast the spell dramatically and obviously. Thought projection never sounds "loud" in the minds of those who receive it, and thus it lacks the drama required.
What would be the penalty and bonus for a unison prayer?
Technically, a "unison prayer" as such is a separate skill that permits the combining of magical powers of several skilled users. The potency of such a skill lies largely in the facts that the highest scores of any member within the group are used for each skill regardless of which user is initiating it, and that each member of the group can perform a skill simultaneously based on the support of that union. It is a very high biased skill, intended to be impossible in most worlds where magic is not itself extremely high.
There are two work-arounds.
One is to say that everyone is performing this skill, and each person involved gets to roll for whether he successfully performs it. Assuming that everyone has a high enough chance of success, this increases the chance of success more than it increases the chance to botch; however, it means unskilled individuals create a significant level of risk, as their chance to botch is likely to be greater than their chance of success.
The other is to treat the "others" as "necessary material components". You then must specify how many "others" are required, the skill will not work without them, and you will be bonused according to the value the referee chooses to place on "one person willingly participating" as a material component. My personal inclination on this element is that it loses value as the volume increases. A ten carat diamond is not worth ten times as much as a one carat diamond. At some point the material component morphs from being "two people" to being "several people" to being "a small crowd" or "a large crowd", and the value of more people to "a large crowd" is not as great as the value of more people to "two people".
If at least one person is expected and one person participates would this penalize the skill?
I think this is covered above, but for clarity if the skill requires "at least one person" you get bonused for one person, and you do not get additional bonused for one million persons because they are not part of the bonus; if it specifies "one million persons" and you get nine hundred thousand nine hundred ninety-nine, the skill fails for want of the required material component. If it specifies "at least one (additional) person" then it stands or falls on whether you have that one additional person, and the only advantage of having two is that if you lose one you still have one.
What are the bonus for additional participants?
There are no bonuses for having material components that are not required by the spell. There is no provision made for optional components to increase a spell's chance of success.
The nearest you can get to this is to devise a variant of a "targeting skill", a separate skill which is performed by you before the main skill, in which you include some specified number of persons and if successful you get a bonus on the next skill or the next casting of a skill of a particular identified type. The general ones are more useful, but cannot be chained. That is, you could logically design a skill that will give you +10 to the next magic skill of any sort, but if you cast it twice in a row the success of the first casting is spent on the second casting. You could instead design a skill that will give you +10 on the next casting of specific spell X, and cast it multiple times to build up a "charge". There would be a duration imposed on such a skill, though, so you couldn't charge up all week in preparation for a single super-bonused casting. (At the least, I would require that all material components for each casting be unique until the charge from them is spent.)
If the participants are asked to say things in their own language, would this be considered as native language for the participants but is a language other than character native tongue relative to the caster?
A language is magical if the person speaking it considers it magical.
Would it count as spoken loudly if the participants are the one who does it?
It is spoken loudly if it has the dramatic effect of alerting others to the fact that you are casting a spell.
Would the participants body involvement counts as additional bonus?
That's a referee's call. If the referee wants to count "person willingly performing bodily movements in furtherance of the casting of the spell" as worth more than "person willingly involved in furthering the casting of the spell" he can add a point for that, provided no single material component is worth more than 10 points unless it is destroyed in the casting.
Not for the caster, and for the others it's not relevant.If the participants are asked to spin around while carrying the body of the caster, would this count as full body involvement?
If the ritual is physically exhausting for the participants other than the caster, would this count as additional bonus?
Probably not, but that's a referee's call. After all, the point is that you are "using" people as a material component in a spell. If you sacrificed them their value would double because they were destroyed in the casting. If they are not destroyed in the casting, it is very doubtful that you can increase their value much over the simple fact that you are using them.
The caster would not be "physically" exhausted because the caster is in spirit form but would feel exhausted if the caster returns to the body. If that is the case, would that counts as additional bonus?
The point of exhaustion is that the caster is temporarily crippled and cannot perform any other actions without difficult attribute checks (and a serious motivating factor like life-or-death). It is entirely possible for the caster's spirit to be completely exhausted and unable to move or act under its own power. The notion that the person would be exhausted if (and only if) he returned to the body is not a detriment, because the caster can avoid the exhaustion simply by not returning to the body.
Does the rift sealing ritual penalized for including a second skill?
If it is then what is the second skill?
The rift sealing is bonused if it requires the successful use of a skill for which a roll is normally required. That is at times a judgment call. For example, if the roll calls for you shouting the name of your enemy and there is reason why at this moment you might not be able to shout, the referee could require a skill check (sonic signal generation, most likely) to determine whether you can cast the spell based on whether you can shout the name. (If the sound is not necessary, going through the motions of shouting the name and failing to do so might not prevent the casting of the spell, but failing to attempt to shout the name would.) Since, though, player characters generally have professional levels at talking, they don't have to roll to speak the required words of their spells, and the issue is assumed. Similarly, simple movements such as holding, lifting, or touching a small object, turning around, stepping in a simple pattern, or other movements are not rolled and are not at issue, unless there is a reason they might not succeed in the present circumstance.
Conversely, if the caster is an amateur dancer and he makes one of the action components of the skill a successful eight-turn pirouette, the referee will properly require that the character make a successful dancing skill check when he attempts to cast the spell, but will also appropriately include a +10 bonus on the chance of success on the skill itself for incorporating the pirouette. The logic here is that if the pirouette fails the spell cannot succeed, so the success of the spell has been made dependent on the success of the dance, a limiting factor. If the caster were an expert dancer who can do eight-turn pirouettes flawlessly and effortlessly, the referee would not include the bonus because he will not require the roll. If the caster having designed such a spell eventually becomes an expert dancer, he will still get the bonus, but he will still have to roll the skill when he is casting the spell to prove that at this moment he was able to perform the pirouette as required.
If the casting of this spell requires the success of some other spell, the referee will bonus this +10 but will require that the other skill roll be successful or this one will fail automatically and have to be restarted from the beginning.
I hope this helps, and I hope I haven't stepped on Scott's toes with this.
--M. J. Young
I hope this helps, and I hope I haven't stepped on Scott's toes with this.
Absolutely and not at all, respectively.
Also, a skill is penalized if it does several distinct things at the same time. For example: spell one hurls a ball of fire at an enemy (not penalized). Spell two changes an enemy into a rabbit (not penalized). Spell three hurls a ball of fire which transforms any enemy it strikes into a somewhat charred rabbit (-10 sit-mod for combining two separate effects into a single spell).
As another example, Sam wants a spell which will plunge an area into darkness, lower the temperature by 30 degrees Fahrenheit, and block all sound from entering or leaving the area. This combines a M4@1 Darkness with a M4@6 Manipulate Temperature and a M5@4 Sound Shield. The combined spell uses the longest baseline time factor from those three listings and the shortest baseline range and duration, the bias is M5@5 (the bias level of the highest level component skill, and an intensity high enough that all component skills are within the "bias curve" it sets [4+1=5, 4+6=10, and 5+4=9, so for the combined spell, 5+x must equal at least ten]), and the whole spell takes a -15 sit-mod (-10 for the second component, -5 for the third; if there were more components, there would be an additional -5 for each).
Thanks to both of you for the information. This thread is made because Scott ask me to discuss it in different thread. Previously, I think I should let Scott create the thread and ask the questions but after the "Time Stop" thread was created, I change my mind and created it instead to store the questions just in case I forget any of them.
Below are some interesting questions:
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that is an example of a world in which thought projection is the normal mode of speech for a large number of indigs.
Would they be penalized for not having a verbal component if they try to cast magic?
What would be considered as speaking loudly for them?
Thought projection never sounds "loud" in the minds of those who receive it, and thus it lacks the drama required.
How about auditory thought projections?
*****
At some point the material component morphs from being "two people" to being "several people" to being "a small crowd" or "a large crowd", and the value of more people to "a large crowd" is not as great as the value of more people to "two people".
What is the definition of "several people", "a small crowd" and "a large crowd"?
Do you calculate the material component morphs by doubling such as 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 and so on?
For example:
Case 1 (non-cumulative doubling):
For 1 to 2 person is +4 each,
then 3 to 4 is +2 each,
then 5 to 8 is +1 each,
then 9 to 16 is +0.5 each,
then 17 to 32 is +0.25 each.
So if there is 32 people then 2x4+2x2+4x1+8x0.5+16x0.25 = +24
Case 2 (cumulative doubling):
For 1 to 2 person is +4 each,
then 3 to 6 is +2 each,
then 7 to 14 is +1 each,
then 15 to 30 is +0.5 each,
then 31 to 62 is +0.25 each.
So if there is 32 people then 2x4+4x2+8x1+16x0.5+2x0.25 = +32.5
Do you calculate it using one of the above or do you calculate it some other way?
*****
It is spoken loudly if it has the dramatic effect of alerting others to the fact that you are casting a spell.
Consider an event that the caster could not speak but can relay the message for others to speak as a substitute. If the substitute person speaks loudly to support the caster that could not speak, would the ritual be considered as spoken loudly?
Or would the above only work for true "unison prayer" which is a very high biased skill?
Not for the caster, and for the others it's not relevant.
Would it be relevant if this is a true "unison prayer"?
If you sacrificed them their value would double because they were destroyed in the casting.
What if they sacrifice half of their life energy?
It is entirely possible for the caster's spirit to be completely exhausted and unable to move or act under its own power.
Is spiritually exhausted bonus the same as physically exhausted bonus then?
*****
a skill is penalized if it does several distinct things at the same time.
So does the rift sealing ritual get to be penalized for only repairing the material part of the rift?
Is targeting the material part and leaving the immaterial part considered as the second distinct action?
If that is the case, would targeting a spirit of someone (that is still inside the body) for any particular action considered as a second distinct action?
O.K., let me see what I can answer easily.
that is an example of a world in which thought projection is the normal mode of speech for a large number of indigs.Would they be penalized for not having a verbal component if they try to cast magic?
In their case it's moot, because all indigs in Gamma World (as far as I am aware) are atheists and cannot cast magic, and the bias in their world is 0@ so no indigenous magic exists.
However, more generally, the particular form of broadcast thought projection used in that universe reaches all minds within 25m (if memory serves), and thus for them is roughly the equivalent of speech, and I would permit such a creature to use such a broadcast skill as if speech. That's not a rule, though; it's a personal ruling by a specific referee for his own purposes. Scott is free to state otherwise. Further, unless you wind up in the body of such a creature, it won't apply to you, and it might not apply to you even if you do wind up there, depending in part on how you did so.
What would be considered as speaking loudly for them?
It is not essential that they be "able" to speak loudly, so there's no reason why anyone has to have a definition of this. If something they did seemed to the referee to have the effect of speaking loudly, he could give such a bonus. I don't know what that might be.
Thought projection never sounds "loud" in the minds of those who receive it, and thus it lacks the drama required.How about auditory thought projections?
It sounds to me as if you mean one of two things--either psionic sound generation which creates a real sound in the air (or other medium) or psionic suggestion which causes the targeted creature to believe he hears sound which he does not hear. Since either of those are going to require skill rolls to succeed and thus provide the bonus for "successful use of skill), I don't personally see the need to bonus the bonus, but I can see where a referee might give a bonus to some skill use which also calls attention to the caster (which is what the "loudly or forcefully" does).
At some point the material component morphs from being "two people" to being "several people" to being "a small crowd" or "a large crowd", and the value of more people to "a large crowd" is not as great as the value of more people to "two people".What is the definition of "several people", "a small crowd" and "a large crowd"?
Do you calculate the material component morphs by doubling such as 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 and so on?
Sorry--the definition is whatever the referee wants it to be. I don't think I've even given a "value" for "one willing sentient being", although that would in my mind be higher than the value of a non-sentient creature, which would exceed the value of a manufactured object in most cases.
It is spoken loudly if it has the dramatic effect of alerting others to the fact that you are casting a spell.Consider an event that the caster could not speak but can relay the message for others to speak as a substitute. If the substitute person speaks loudly to support the caster that could not speak, would the ritual be considered as spoken loudly?
Or would the above only work for true "unison prayer" which is a very high biased skill?
I think you have an inherent problem here. If the ritual requires that the caster say certain words, if he cannot say them then he cannot cast the spell, and having someone else say them does not rectify that. Thus the only potential bases for a "substitute person" would be either that you are teaching the other person to cast the spell the way you would cast it (in which case he must perform the entire ritual himself) or the spell is designed such that this "substitute person" is a required material component of the spell, and the rules concerning what he says or how do not apply strictly.
Remember, the primary point of the components of a spell is to make it impossible to perform the spell if the components are unavailable--if your hands are tied and hand motions are required you cannot use telekinesis instead; if you are gagged you cannot cast the spell by generating words psionically; if you don't have the required chicken bone you can't substitute a turkey bone. The entire reason the ritual elements give you bonuses is that the risk exists that the spell will be impossible simply for the absence of the component. Substitutions are not permitted.
Not for the caster, and for the others it's not relevant.Would it be relevant if this is a true "unison prayer"?
Not normally. "Unison prayers" as such are still cast by specific individuals as conceived in the system. For example, if we have a priest leading a congregation, the congregation is a material component and the priest is the caster; if several priests unite in unison, each is an individual caster of individual spells and the others are gaining the benefits of their union to cast different spells at the same time. There's no real provision for one spell being cast by two people--probably an artifact of the skill-based system, that ultimately everything must succeed or fail based on a roll made by one individual. The other individuals do not get a success roll, so they are not performing the skill. Only the one person for whom the dice are rolled is actually performing the skill, and if it is required that someone else participate they are a component, not a caster.
If you sacrificed them their value would double because they were destroyed in the casting.What if they sacrifice half of their life energy?
The bonus is given for "destroyed in the casting" as in "can never be used for this or anything else again". If they don't die, they were not destroyed in the casting.
It is entirely possible for the caster's spirit to be completely exhausted and unable to move or act under its own power.Is spiritually exhausted bonus the same as physically exhausted bonus then?
Yes, exhausted is exhausted--if the caster is prevented from acting and compelled to rest, he is exhausted, whether he is in spirit form or material form.
a skill is penalized if it does several distinct things at the same time.So does the rift sealing ritual get to be penalized for only repairing the material part of the rift?
Is targeting the material part and leaving the immaterial part considered as the second distinct action?
The answer to this question really depends on the exact nature of a gate or rift which you created entirely accidentally and unintentionally on a botch, the nature of which is completely unknown to you beyond what you have been able to observe. For example, this might be a wormhole to another point in the same universe, or a gate to a strange area in the border supernatural, or a dimensional instability connecting two related universes or overlapping sub-universes which co-exist in the same space, or a gate to another universe. It might take years of exploration to determine which of those it is, and whether it passes through the border supernatural or through the scriff or through hyperspace or through some other medium or through no medium at all (being a simple door, not a zero-time tunnel).
It seems to me, though, as if you have what is a rift or gate between two distinct locations which permits the passage of anything, and you are attempting to replace it with a different rift or gate that permits only certain categories of "thing" to pass through it. You might be able to rephrase your intent in such a way that it indicates that you are doing nothing to close the rift but instead attempting to create a filter over it that limits what can penetrate it--but such a filter would most likely be temporary and probably not completely effective.
If that is the case, would targeting a spirit of someone (that is still inside the body) for any particular action considered as a second distinct action?
This would require a very specific example. If you're talking about a skill that causes pain to someone's spirit rather than to that person's body, it would be a specific skill designed to cause pain to the person's spirit and would be ineffective on bodies; it's difficult to imagine something you could do to a body or to a spirit that would be the same skill either way, but that doesn't mean there isn't an example of such a thing I'm not recalling.
--M. J. Young