These questions are brought on by situations in Maxx's thread.
Is there any degree of separation between body and spirit which would, in and of itself, be sufficient to result in the death of either body or spirit? (I suspect "no, whether separation results in death depends entirely on the method of separation.")
If a spirit whose body is wholly inaccessable (as by temporal separation on the order of centuries) undergoes an effect which would ordinarily force it to return to its body, what results might you as referee consider probable (obviously depending on the effect, but in general)?
One of the reasons, I understand, that the spirit is presumed to be the undisownable property of the body is to avoid the scenario in which the verser somehow loses his body and verses out, never to see it again. While in general the Multiverser philosophy is "any problem is temporary; anything can be fixed," it also embraces the idea that the character is in some sense the player, and that this identity can somehow remain constant even in the face of the dramatic changes most characters undergo (thus the rule that ensures that the verser will always be able to eventually reclaim his original body, no matter what happens or how long it takes). However, if it is possible for a fantasy villain in Disney's Sleeping Beauty (for example) to trap the soul of a verser in a shard of glass and subsequently abscond with that soul to DC's Metroplolis via magic portal (a completely distinct and unrelated universe) without the death of the verser, I as referee have a problem: time.
In the event that the verser's body and soul are operating in separate and distinct timestreams, then - for lack of a better question - what do I do?
I would imagine the body would continue to be preserved by the scriff, and the scriff would work to bring the spirit back to the body in the same way it works to bring equipment that has been forcibly separated from them back (such as equip taken by another verser). Over time, they would draw closer. That is, the body would remain in a coma-like state, alive until killed and made to verse out, and the soul would have to bide it's time until the body either versed into the world, or the soul is released and finds some way to verse out or travel to it's body.
Of the spirit could take over another body. Go to the local hospital, wait for someone to die, then inhabit their body and walk out like nothing happened.
If a spirit whose body is wholly inaccessable (as by temporal separation on the order of centuries) undergoes an effect which would ordinarily force it to return to its body, what results might you as referee consider probable (obviously depending on the effect, but in general)?
If the force to return the spirit would be greater than the force obstructing the spirit to return then the spirit will return.
If the force works on the body then the body will come to the spirit and if it works on the spirit then the spirit will come to the body.
If the obstructing force is greater than the force to return the spirit, then the spirit would not return to the body. The spirit would probably return to a similar or compatible body. Failing to do that would probably verse the spirit and the body out to a new world if no temporal anomalies prevents such an act.
However, if it is possible for a fantasy villain in Disney's Sleeping Beauty (for example) to trap the soul of a verser in a shard of glass and subsequently abscond with that soul to DC's Metroplolis via magic portal (a completely distinct and unrelated universe) without the death of the verser
That would make Disney's Sleeping Beauty and DC's Metropolis to be related to each other just like Morach's world is related to Oo-hii's world. To make it unrelated, the villain must be a verser that kills self and verses out with the shard. Then we will have willpower contest to see if the body will make the shard stay in that world or verse out with the villain. This is because if the portal can be opened to related universe by the villain, the verser ally could probably open a similar portal to help the verser. If the villain succeed in versing out with the shard then the verser body would also verse out.
In the event that the verser's body and soul are operating in separate and distinct timestreams, then - for lack of a better question - what do I do?
I think the body of the verser will just be "undone" to its previous state if the verser does not travel with the body. If the verser goes back before the day of conception without a body, I think the verser would probably verse out because the main body have not existed then. The verser could probably survive if there is a similar or compatible body that the verser could possess.
That somehow makes me remember about the legendary tale that Morach's parents tell him.
If the spirit inhabits a new body the new body is still not a verser. The scriff is contained in the body, not the spirit. Thus there is no similar or compatible body because the presence of scriff is needed to maintain a versers career.
Maxx:
If the force to return the spirit would be greater than the force obstructing the spirit
There is no obstructing force; there is the fact that, at time the effect is applied, there exists no such body to which the spirit can return.
That would make Disney's Sleeping Beauty and DC's Metropolis to be related to each other just like Morach's world is related to Oo-hii's world.
I apologize for not being clear. "Related universe," in this context, is a Multiverser term which means something similar to "sub-universe". In D&D, for example, there are several Planes of Existance. Most of the action occurs on the Prime Material plane, but there is also the Ethereal Plane, the Astral Plane, the Elemental Planes, and many, many Outer Planes, includes such places as the Seven Heavens and the Nine Hells (that last inspired partly by Dante's Inferno, of course). Each of the Nine Hells is a "related universe" with respect to the Prime Material Plane.
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That being said, it is probably the case that while the Gate from DC to Disney is open, time probably flows in the same direction and at the same rate in both universes. However, once that gate closes, there is nothing to suggest that any relationship between the two universes' time streams does not completely and immediately end.
Time in a particular group of related universes tends to at least flow in the same direction.
Time streams in separate universes - Nagaworld and Sherwood Forest, for exampe - have no relationship whatever with each other. The problem remains as I presented it.
Brock, I assume this is in response to my final question:
Over time, they would draw closer. That is, the body would remain in a coma-like state, alive until killed and made to verse out, and the soul would have to bide it's time until the body either versed into the world, or the soul is released and finds some way to verse out or travel to it's body.
"Over time?" Whose time - the spirit's or the body's? My point is, the player's perceptions are all with the spirit, but the body is in another universe operating under time which has no relationship at all with the player's time. One or the other of the spirit or body will eventually (in their own time) verse out, yes, and at that point I can reunite them in another universe - but how on Earth can I possibly determine which verses out "first," and "when" that happens in the other's unrelated time stream?
Do I just let them both run their full lifespan in the universe and assume that each verses out "simultaneously" relative to the other - each dying in its own way "at the same time" and versing in together in the next universe? Or should it be possible for the spirit to be yanked out of its current universe due to the death of the body in the other universe, basically whenever I feel like it?
Thus there is no similar or compatible body because the presence of scriff is needed to maintain a versers career.
If that is the case then similar or compatible means that the body could be detected via scriff sense although this would be a problem if the body is not in the same universe but in the other related universe. An example of this is the verser past body.
Could a verser equipment be detected by other verser?
If it could be detected, then probably the equipment could be possessed.
If it could not be detected, then probably the spirit could only possess another verser.
Could the verser have a scriff sense on the related universe level which enable the verser to detect which related universe contains scriff at that moment?
If the above skill is enabled on the world the spirit is in then probably the spirit can survive in that world.
*****
There is no obstructing force; there is the fact that, at time the effect is applied, there exists no such body to which the spirit can return.
The obstructing force is time itself. So, if the energy that force the spirit to return is enough to teleport the spirit back to its original time then the spirit is back to its own body.
Time in a particular group of related universes tends to at least flow in the same direction.
If the portal is created to connect it once imply that time of both related universe flow in the same direction then it would probably still flow in the same direction. If it flow differently after the portal is closed then probably replacement theory would not work in that world. That would also imply that time would have different rate of change during the connection of the portal.
Somehow "time stream" implies that you are using fluid time theory although that is only what I infer from my observation.
If the portal is created to connect it once imply that time of both related universe flow in the same direction then it would probably still flow in the same direction.
Why?
If it flow differently after the portal is closed then probably replacement theory would not work in that world.
Again, I don't know why you think this.
That would also imply that time would have different rate of change during the connection of the portal.
Only in the sense that while the portal is open, time in Universe 1 can be measured against time in Universe 2 at all, and while the portal is not open time in the two universes exists in different temporal dimensions. This is analogous to the relationship between the space of the two universes, by the way; while the portal is open, distance between a point in Universe 1 and a point in Universe 2 can be measured. The reason it can be measured is because such a distance exists. While the portal does not exist, the distance between a point in Universe 1 and a point in Universe two cannot be measured because that distance does not exist. The same is true for temporal coordinates.
To the best of my knowledge, "time stream" is a generic term not associated with any particular theory. It refers to a single temporal dimension.Somehow "time stream" implies that you are using fluid time theory although that is only what I infer from my observation.
This is analogous to the relationship between the space of the two universes, by the way; while the portal is open, distance between a point in Universe 1 and a point in Universe 2 can be measured. The reason it can be measured is because such a distance exists. While the portal does not exist, the distance between a point in Universe 1 and a point in Universe two cannot be measured because that distance does not exist. The same is true for temporal coordinates.
If light travel could travel the same speed for both universe, then it would cover the same distance if it is measured from two points of each universe. That means if it is measured from universe A to another point in universe A it would give the same speed of light. The same is true for temporal coordinates.
To the best of my knowledge, "time stream" is a generic term not associated with any particular theory. It refers to a single temporal dimension.
If you type "time stream" or "timestream" in search engine you probably would find the term to meant "a metaphorical conception of time as a stream, a flowing body of water". In replacement theory, time probably does not work like a stream because the future happen instantly.
If light travel could travel the same speed for both universe, then it would cover the same distance if it is measured from two points of each universe. That means if it is measured from universe A to another point in universe A it would give the same speed of light. The same is true for temporal coordinates.
This is true. It is also irrelevant.
The problem concerns not two points within universe A, but rather one point within universe A and one point within universe B.
You wanted to know if time flows the same direction after the portal vanishes, right?
Does light travel faster/slower when the portal closes?
Does the other world space contraction/expansion rate change when the portal closes?
Does time go backwards when the portal closes?
Answering that would probably help to determine if time flows the same direction and whether it flows at the same speed. You could make it different of course because you could make time work anyway you like as long as you know how to handle the temporal anomalies of such time.
You wanted to know if time flows the same direction after the portal vanishes, right?
No. I don't seem to be communicating the problem properly.
Does light travel faster/slower when the portal closes?
Does the other world space contraction/expansion rate change when the portal closes?
Does time go backwards when the portal closes?
Of course none of those things change within either universe. That has no bearing on the fact that, once the connecting portal no longer exists, there is no longer a temporal relationship between the two universes.
To say that time moves slower in universe A than B, or in the opposite direction than B in A, or faster in A than B, or at the same rate or whatever, would be incorrect. There is simply no relationship at all between time in one universe and time in the other.
My problem is: given that reality, how do I run the game when a verser's body is in one universe and his spirit in another universe with no connection - temporal, spatial, or otherwise - with the other?
Wow, a lot of people have attempted to address Scott's questions; before I read all the chatter let me tackle them directly.
Is there any degree of separation between body and spirit which would, in and of itself, be sufficient to result in the death of either body or spirit? (I suspect "no, whether separation results in death depends entirely on the method of separation.")
Yeah, you're right. It's a tricky area. There are, of course, monsters (in fictional accounts, which is what matters throughout) that kill by ripping your spirit out of your body, and if that action is designed to be a mortal attack, then if it is successful it ought to be a mortal attack, and the character ought to die. On the other hand, there are accounts of men walking the astral plane to other universes while their bodies lie in trances on Earth for weeks at a time, and this must also be possible.
If a spirit whose body is wholly inaccessible (as by temporal separation on the order of centuries) undergoes an effect which would ordinarily force it to return to its body, what results might you as referee consider probable (obviously depending on the effect, but in general)?
I'm assuming that "effect which would ordinarily force it to return to its body" is akin to "takes sufficient damage that it ceases to function outside the body". I suppose there could be other attacks that would have that effect, but they seem improbable. On that basis, I see only two possibilities: either the spirit is forced into the border supernatural and through that back to the body, or the body dies and the whole verses out to a place where it can be reunited. I might use a GE roll to determine which, third possiblity perhaps stranding the spirit on the border supernatural subject to such action as its natives might take. (Whether that's the middle or the bad extreme might depend on the character's affiliation.)
One of the reasons, I understand, that the spirit is presumed to be the undisownable property of the body is to avoid the scenario in which the verser somehow loses his body and verses out, never to see it again. While in general the Multiverser philosophy is "any problem is temporary; anything can be fixed," it also embraces the idea that the character is in some sense the player, and that this identity can somehow remain constant even in the face of the dramatic changes most characters undergo (thus the rule that ensures that the verser will always be able to eventually reclaim his original body, no matter what happens or how long it takes). However, if it is possible for a fantasy villain in Disney's Sleeping Beauty (for example) to trap the soul of a verser in a shard of glass and subsequently abscond with that soul to DC's Metroplolis via magic portal (a completely distinct and unrelated universe) without the death of the verser, I as referee have a problem: time.
In the event that the verser's body and soul are operating in separate and distinct timestreams, then - for lack of a better question - what do I do?
I wasn't around when Whisp turned himself into a statue. He got the Midas Touch, and touched himself, but it wasn't fatal and it wasn't considered damage (he was morphed into a golden statue of himself) so he had to be destroyed as a statue to verse out, and he had to find a way as a statue to convert himself back to human form. He eventually worked up a psionic morphing ability that enabled him to shape change into living creatures, and so in essence morphed into himself, but last I heard he still had not managed to lose the lovely golden hue of his skin, hair, eyes....
I have no problem with the notion that a player character whose spirit gets magic jarred has to play as that spirit in that jar until he finds a way to free himself from the jar and get back to his body. There are always ways to do it; you just have to be creative and patient.
My point is, the player's perceptions are all with the spirit, but the body is in another universe operating under time which has no relationship at all with the player's time. One or the other of the spirit or body will eventually (in their own time) verse out, yes, and at that point I can reunite them in another universe - but how on Earth can I possibly determine which verses out "first," and "when" that happens in the other's unrelated time stream?
Events which matter to the player character which are beyond his control are determined by a GE roll. You're tracking the actions of the spirit; you know the present state and location of the body, and the probability that something would kill it (euthanized by indigs, devoured by scavenger carnivores, buried in natural disaster). You also know that time is not connected. So what matters really is, does the player character prefer to stay in this world a longer time (because he might be able to free himself from the magic jar here) or move to a new world sooner (because he doesn't have a lot of options here), and the general effects roll against that tells you whether he verses out sooner or later.
"Later" might be covered by the simple narration that he's been stuck in this state for what seems like years, but suddenly he has the sense of the jar around him being torn apart and reassembled (the verse-out experience). Or it might be that the player stays for quite a significant length of play time, either because there is something he could do here or because you don't want to cue him that there isn't until he's tried a few things and he's not trying.
Or should it be possible for the spirit to be yanked out of its current universe due to the death of the body in the other universe, basically whenever I feel like it?
Well, yes, that's right, except that it's whenever you feel like it based on your perception of what the character would prefer and what the dice indicate.
I hope the side chatter isn't confusing the issue, but let me see what I can answer there, too.
Thus there is no similar or compatible body because the presence of scriff is needed to maintain a versers career.
Before I get to what Max said about this, let me clarify that this does not mean that the verser's spirit could not possess or animate a body that does not contain scriff. It's a common enough psionic skill, and can be done magically as well (although I tend to think that disembodied spirits have to use psionic skills primarily).
If that is the case then similar or compatible means that the body could be detected via scriff sense although this would be a problem if the body is not in the same universe but in the other related universe. An example of this is the verser past body.
Could a verser equipment be detected by other verser?
If it could be detected, then probably the equipment could be possessed.
If it could not be detected, then probably the spirit could only possess another verser.
A verser can detect another verser, but not another verser's equipment. I think that if the verser's spirit possesses the body of another verser, there's a reasonable issue to address there, but since there are too many variables it would have to be determined on a case-by-case basis.
Could the verser have a scriff sense on the related universe level which enable the verser to detect which related universe contains scriff at that moment?
No. Scriff sense does not reach beyond the present sub-universe in the best of situations. You would have to be within that sub-universe, and closely related to the scriff source. Also, contrary to some of Eric's ideas, versers don't generally detect raw scriff or scriff used technologically or in other devices--only active scriff in creatures and the scriff connected at a molecular level to their own possessions.
In replacement theory, time probably does not work like a stream because the future happen instantly.
You're abusing metaphors again. Time is still like a stream in that people are carried along through it at a fixed rate, as if in a current from point to point. The entirety of the stream can exist simultaneously and it still be a stream.
My problem is: given that reality, how do I run the game when a verser's body is in one universe and his spirit in another universe with no connection - temporal, spatial, or otherwise - with the other?
I think I've answered this. The situation as defined means that the spirit and the body have no knowledge of anything happening to the other, so the events happening to the body happen outside the player's knowledge and thus dependent on GE rolls.
You can if you like think about what's being done to his body in his absence, and if any of that will survive a later verse-out. It gives an entirely new meaning to the idea of waking up with a tattoo.
--M. J. Young
Some beliefs tell of an "astral cord" that connects the body and the soul while one is traveling astrally, and if this cord is connected the body dies. Entering another universe would constitute breaking the connection between body and soul by my way of thinking. So the death of the body would be swift if you go by that route. Then all you have to do is determine what happens when the body dies.
The problem, of course, is that this method is just as plausible as numerous OTHER ways to deal with mind body separation.
Brock--yes, that's not an uncommon view. One problem, though, is that it, too, has variants--in OAD&D, for example, travel on the astral plane has you connected by the silver cord to the material body, but you can emerge on another plane and exist there (if memory serves, it creates a temporary body suitable to that plane) without your old body dying. Also, there are only specific weapons that can sever a silver cord.
One aspect of the situation here is that in Multiverser everything has to be consistent with what has already been determined, and in this case there is no connection between the spirit and the body because Max chose not to have one (so as to reduce the difficulty of the skill.
--M. J. Young
Ah. I see. I don't read Maxx's game thread, so I went with what I knew. Well, I am little help here, it seems. Ah well. good luck, Scott.
Oh, I wouldn't say you were little help, Brock. It did illumine possibilities.
--M. J. Young