So the combination of the world John's running me through and the adaption of a book that MJ is running me through has sparked a lot of thought in my mind about starting on the process towards running a game. I had been making a list of possible problems and possible ideas, which I had on the back burner but after MJ mentioned relieving himself of the responsibility of reading all game threads I'm interested in pursuing a bit more actively.
I am looking to create an adaption of the book series the Belgariad and the Malloreon, by David Eddings. I've read all the books in the series a couple of times, and I just began rereading them and taking notes about potential entrance points.
Here are some questions I had however:
1. MJ has mentioned his adaption articles a couple of times, and I've done adaption's of books in other gaming systems before, but I was wondering where his articles on adaption could be found and if they are multiverser specific.
2. I know zygote experiences are supposed to be rare, but is it acceptable for a new verser to experience one? I believe zygoting to be the best entrance to the story for a new verser, although by the virtue of being new he's going to feel even more helpless than normal.
3. How does powerblocking work with magic? This book series is very very magic rich, but the magic operates under strict laws. Is there a way to restrict magic that operates outside those laws? Either a heavy negative SM or a way to curve?
4. Same as question 3 but with psionics. The reason it is the same is everything is perceived as magic from the standpoint of natives of the world, although some of it comes from internal thought while other is aided by the prophecy(a god of sorts) or actual gods.
These are the main questions I have, I may start another thread in a month or so to actually hash out more details, as by that point I'll have finished rereading and taking notes on the Belgariad and should have a list of important characters, and the type of verser who could enter the story in one of those characters spots.
1. Dunno.
2. Yes, I would think so, but ask your player if he is willing to do so.
3. It is my understanding, you may not make magic cast in a certain way powerblocked from use, but you can block it from being learned. So, if that is their first world, then you effectively block all other kinds of magic, as they likely have no magical skills to start.
4. You can probably just flatline psionics, and replicate all 'psionic' effects with the Will and the Word. I knoe telekinesis is described as the first thing Belgarath did with his abilities.
5. All magic would be penalized because motion is not necessary for magic, nor are material components, and I believe you must have two of the three (verbal, somatic, material) to avoid a penalty.
6. All magic would be bonused in some fashion by the idea that using too much energy in a spell can literally kill you, as spells cannot be canceled once cast.
footnote. obviously, i have read this series! :)
Its been a long while since I've read them, but yeah, they were good.
There is also...mmm...sorcery....which is Demon Summoning. Its very, very dangerous and frankly rather stupid to do. You summon an almost unstoppable demon, and keep total concentration over it to keep it in control (also requires a pentagram)...lose control for one second, and now an almost unstoppbable engine of destruction wants to eat you.
As to Zygote Experience, it tends to be that it happens when the verser's body is thorougly destroyed. If you get disintegrated, you've got a chance to Zygote. So, your verse out is going to have to be very violent....like crashing into an oil tanker after your cell phone zaps you with electricity and scriff as you drive....and then the oil tanker blows up on the freeway....KA-BOOM!
As far as the world you're in, I was having a psychotic episode, my mind was running a million miles an hour, and I started typing. That's how this world came into being. You could say that you're living a psychotic fantasy.....
How large is the penalty for magic only being verbal?
Could I sitmod the magic cast by the limitation that it must obey the properties of Will and the Word (conservation of momentum, changing weather being as tricky as it is,etc)
Would Silk's secret language be body or psionic? (The sign language one)
How would I handle the idea that magic users can sense when other people use magic?
How would I handle the ability to conceal other magic users sensing you and how do I make it harder to conceal larger surges of power?
Is there a telepathic or telekinetic variant in magic?
Magic has a time factor in it right? How penalized is it for being instant?
Is morphing magical or psionic? or can it be both?
Could be a fun entrance scene to the multiverse for it to be a big explosion. Increases the chaos on top of an already chaotic event of dying and being reborn.
My inspiration from your scenario John is more subtle, not sure I could put my finger on it.
I think you could sit-mod weather. I guess.
You could say that that is one of the limitations of the Will and the Word is 'may be sensed by others who have at least a 2@5 mag skill' or something like that. I gave MJ a spell drawn from L.E. Modestit's Spellsong book in which anyone who is sensitive to magic in a large area senses when that spell is cast. So, that's pretty much the same thing.
You'd need to define the area. For example: Down the street, City, County, Province, Continent, or World? Each larger category would be worth more.
Hmm, I think you might want to look at the post 'Fifty Magic Limits' as I had this limit in the list. Not sure I sketched it up.
That's two questions contended with. Others may take a turn in the jousting arena with the others.
Before I read the answers others have offered (I have skimmed through them and not noticed any links), I'm going to address the original questions myself; then I might tag in thoughts on the other answers.
1. MJ has mentioned his adaption articles a couple of times, and I've done adaption's of books in other gaming systems before, but I was wondering where his articles on adaption could be found and if they are multiverser specific.
Well, they're here on Gaming Outpost, and they're all fairly recent, and honestly the series is not yet that long. I've got:
- Adapting Introduction, which introduces the series concept.
- Adapting Bujold's Shards of Honor, a sci-fi piece in which interplanetary war and onboard mutiny are parts of the intrigue, and working in the outsider verser is the key issue.
- Adapting Stasheff's Escape Velocity, which is not at all hard to find because it's the article currently posted on the front page of Gaming Outpost. This happens to be the prequel to the world in which your character is currently playing, but as I mention in that article the connection between them is weak enough that it won't hurt you at all to read the entire book and the analysis. It's another sci-fi piece, this one focused on a chase through the galaxy.
2. I know zygote experiences are supposed to be rare, but is it acceptable for a new verser to experience one? I believe zygoting to be the best entrance to the story for a new verser, although by the virtue of being new he's going to feel even more helpless than normal.
I objected strenuously to using a zygote experience for Maxx when he was insisting on it. He prevailed, mostly because I did not want to lose a new player, but I have regretted allowing it ever since, for many reasons. I do not want a player character to believe he has been reincarnated; I want him to enter a world in which he will, one way or another, come to understand that he is not in Kansas anymore--whether (as with the Tropical Island) by meeting a new verser, or (as with NagaWorld) by recognizing that some things about the world are simply unrealistic. I would not zygote anyone until after he understands that he is a verser, and has some concept of what that means. The Zygote Experience is in too many ways too unlike versing to be a good starting place.
I am guessing from this that you are thinking that the verser has to be the central character, and that the central character has to be born into who he is. It is rarely the case that both of these things are true--even with the Terminator series I'm running, there were a lot of other options I could have followed, but I decided that for John Cross in particular I wanted him to be John Conner and deal with the temporal problems as John Conner. Had it been anyone else, I probably would have ignored much of John Conner's childhood and brought the verser into the story as an added character.
3. How does powerblocking work with magic? This book series is very very magic rich, but the magic operates under strict laws. Is there a way to restrict magic that operates outside those laws? Either a heavy negative SM or a way to curve?
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!!!!!!
If magic in a world works under strict rules, it is because those who practice magic expect that those rules will control them, and they won't ever attempt anything else because if they were to attempt it they would fail, because they fully expect to fail. If the magic does not work when you are not wearing the hat, it's because you believe the magic does not work unless you wear the hat, your expectation is negated, and you can't work magic.
However, it is ABSOLUTELY AND COMPLETELY UNFAIR to the verser to say that his magic does not work because in this world you have to wear the magic hat, or sing the magic, or use potions, or speak in a specific language, or fire and forget, or anything else. If the verser already knows magic, and magic is possible in this world, he can perform his magic the way he always has, without penalty, even though such magic would be deemed "impossible" by the magic users of that world.
Now, for what it's worth, if you're bringing in a verser who doesn't know any magic, there's a good chance that he'll buy whatever limitations they claim, at least until he encounters a different kind of magic somewhere else. After all, if he doesn't know magic he probably has no idea how it could be done, and he probably will simply do what he is told or what he sees them doing. In that case, you don't really have much of a problem. I would not count on that, though--I find that of gamers at conventions, probably half of them (Adam jokes about this) believe they have magic powers already, and that means that their characters do, and their magic will work in those worlds.
To more directly answer your question, power blocks in magic can block what magic can do (no teleporting, no charms, no transmutations) but not how you do it (can't prevent potions or dance rituals or song rituals). However, you should powerblock specific powers very judiciously: just because no one in this world has ever done something does not mean it can't be done in this world, only that no one has done it.
4. Same as question 3 but with psionics. The reason it is the same is everything is perceived as magic from the standpoint of natives of the world, although some of it comes from internal thought while other is aided by the prophecy(a god of sorts) or actual gods.
I'm less clear on what you mean here. Psionics do not require ritual, and any ritual that is involved will give only the smallest of bonuses to outcome (e.g., you might get +10 if your scrying or precognition requires you to gaze at a crystal or use cards). If it requires ritual, it is probably magic, probably arcane magic in which the caster is channeling the supernatural power through himself. If it clearly is power coming from within himself, then it probably also involves some sort of charging process by which supernatural power is stockpiled within the user to be released later.
If what you mean is that certain areas are "impossible", the same answer applies. You can indeed powerblock anything you think is not possible in this world, and then no one can do it (by psionics), period. On the other hand, just because it has never been done does not mean it is impossible, and you should be reserved in your use of powerblocks.
It does not usually hurt play for the player character to be able to do things no one else in the world has ever imagined doing.
I hope this helps; now I'm going to draw a line and see whether there's anything I should say in response to the other posts.
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It is my understanding, you may not make magic cast in a certain way powerblocked from use, but you can block it from being learned.
Sort of. What you can do is create world rules, treating it as something of a "game world". That is, if you versed into Dungeons & Dragons (prior to 3E) all magic is "fire and forget", and the only way you can learn magic is by being an adherent of a class which studies magic. That means to learn magic in that world you must apprentice with a master and become a member of a magic-using class, because those are the rules of that world. It does not mean you can't use the magic you already know, but it means you can't invent new magic because there are rules in that world for who can invent new magic and how it must be done, so you have to follow those rules in that world.
That means that if there are clear rules in the books for how you can learn magic, then you can only learn it in that world by following those rules. If the rules are broad, though, you have to be careful to be certain you know all the exceptions--e.g., if some people are born with it, some learn by studying with masters, and some pick it up as they get older, then there doesn't seem to be any real restriction on who can learn it or how, and the player is not restricted. But if it's clear that you are either born with it or taught it by a mentor, then the verser not having been born with it must learn it from a mentor. That's a world rule, but once it's in place, it applies to everyone in the world, and indigs cannot have any magic that doesn't fall under the rules. Versers can still use magic they brought to that world.
You can probably just flatline psionics, and replicate all 'psionic' effects with the Will and the Word.
This is suggested in the rules section on designing story worlds from stories: it is better to put a very few skills of one bias area into the other if it's possible. I have two good examples of this:
- In Dune, the world is filled with psionic abilities--mostly precognitive, used by space navigators and of course by the Fremen. Then there is also the Bene Gesserit pain inducer, which looks like a magic device that inflicts pain without causing damage. The immediate temptation is to make it magical; but it is the only thing in the stories that is remotely like magic, and it is easier to make it a psionic device and keep magic out of the story entirely.
- Bill Friant the Friendly Giant was working on adapting a video game (I do not remember which one, and am not certain I ever knew) for game play. It began with the central characters encountering a magic teleporter that carried them to the place where the adventures occurred; but there was no other magic in the entire story, which contained much that was high in technology. My suggestion was to apply Clarke's Law here: the teleporter was not a magical transporter, but a high-tech voice-activated transmat device probably with an artificial intelligence controlling it. That removed the only magic from the world, and resolved all issues about its creation and operation.
All magic would be penalized because motion is not necessary for magic, nor are material components, and I believe you must have two of the three (verbal, somatic, material) to avoid a penalty.
Obviously Brock does know more about the scenario than I, as that was not mentioned. He's right, it's -10 if there is only one component, -25 if it's all done by thought. (Also, if the material component is one of the necessary two, there is still a -2 penalty, because the material component must be worth at least 2 points to negate the "one component" penalty. This prevents you from getting rid of the ten-point penalty by saying you have to spit to make it work, or something like that.)
All magic would be bonused in some fashion by the idea that using too much energy in a spell can literally kill you, as spells cannot be canceled once cast.
I would object to this unless it proves to be particularly common. Instead, I would say that an uncontrolled release of power fatal to the caster is the most common botch in this world, and let the chance to botch cover it. After all, the chance to botch means that any spell can literally kill you if it goes wrong, and too much power is one way in which a spell goes wrong all the time--just ask anyone who ever got an explosion result.
Could I sitmod the magic cast by the limitation that it must obey the properties of Will and the Word (conservation of momentum, changing weather being as tricky as it is,etc)
There are already controls on weather spells which make them more difficult if they are pushing for greater change (from sunny skies to storms is more difficult than getting storms from cloud cover). However, if you're talking about controlling a verser's already known spells by rules of the world, you can't.
If "Will and Word" can be construed as holy magic (which it seems to me it probably can), then you can indeed include sit-mods based on your perception of how well the requested outcome meshes with the will of the god petitioned. That would not affect magic that is not petitioning that god (e.g., magic that petitions a different god, arcane magic that petitions no god). It need not specifically name the god called to be holy magic, if that god does not so require. If it is bound by moral (or "immoral") rules, it is probably holy magic; arcane magic is bound only by the caster's expectations.
Would Silk's secret language be body or psionic? (The sign language one)
The ability to communicate is generally psionic, unless there is a really good reason to think otherwise. There is always an overlap between the bod side and the psi side in such communications, as demonstrated by John 2's recent problems talking, but even communication by pheromone becomes a psionic skill once the bod abilities are in place. So I would say communication by sign language is still communication, and involves psionic skills.
How would I handle the idea that magic users can sense when other people use magic?
Give them all a Detect Magic skill that is always operational, and create a world rule that it always works within that world. If anyone with that skill verses out, they would have to roll for it to work in any other world.
How would I handle the ability to conceal other magic users sensing you and how do I make it harder to conceal larger surges of power?
Use a protection from detects skill and link its protection to RS. I'm not certain whether by larger surges of power you mean higher biased skills or greater successes, but there are several possibilities:
- The roll of the protection skill can create a threshold for the roll of the magic skill, so that if the roll of the magic skill exceeds that of the protection skill it is detectable, but if it doesn't it is concealed.
- The roll of the protection skill can be scaled against the bias of the magic skill. You can make it the decimalized bias, in which case a successful roll of 100 (which only the most powerful mages would be able to get) would block detection of anything through a 9@10 skill, but a 10@1 would not be blocked by any roll. If you want higher, you can simply double the roll, so that a 15@10 (decimalized 160) would be indetectable if the roll was at least 80.
- You could use comparative relative success against the detect skill, such that if the caster is trying to hide the use of magic he rolls his protection skill, and the one who might detect it (who doesn't usually have to roll his "always on" detect magic skill) rolls (or you roll secretly for him so the player isn't alerted to something the character does not know), and if the detect is higher than the protect the skill is detected, but otherwise (including on a tie) it is not.
Is there a telepathic or telekinetic variant in magic?
Yes. For telepathics, usually 7@1 concealed messages, TF is usually twice what it would take to say the message without the concealment. For telekinetics, there are many applications. If you're talking about shaping an object, 3@2 shape liquids and 3@3 shape solids are the simplest. Your 6@ animated forces are the simplest ways to move objects, including 6@4 pushers, 6@7 grabbers, and 6@10 animated forces and force servants. Real telekinesis appears at 12@1 lift object, 12@2 manipulate object, 12@3 manipulate multiple objects, 12@4 lift creature, and a couple other 12@ flight-related skills which can include or exclude the caster. 12@10 rend should also be mentioned.
A lot of magic is RF-based, that is, cast immediately and then again a minute or whatever later, like firing a weapon. If it isn't, there's a -20 penalty to convert from TF to RF, and the RF then is based on the invert of the TF--e.g., if the TF is a minute, the RF is once per minute, and the -20 lets you do it at the beginning of the first minute instead of the end. If the TF is an hour, you can do it immediately, but can't do magic again for an hour. You can of course also reduce the TF by adding ritual, if that's possible. (Remember, there are bonuses for appropriate words, must be audible, must be loud or forceful, and for magical language, so there are ways to bonus a skill without adding materials or movements to it.)Magic has a time factor in it right? How penalized is it for being instant?
Is morphing magical or psionic? or can it be both?
Morphing can be psionic, magical, technological, or body. If you're talking about a creature that is not otherwise magic-using (e.g., werewolf), it's probably best to use body-based morphing. If you're talking about a "wizard" who has the ability, it's best to put it in the same category as whatever comprises his stronger skills. Both magic and psionics distinguish between taking the shape of another creature and becoming another creature.
Does this help?
--M. J. Young
All magic would be bonused in some fashion by the idea that using too much energy in a spell can literally kill you, as spells cannot be canceled once cast.I would object to this unless it proves to be particularly common. Instead, I would say that an uncontrolled release of power fatal to the caster is the most common botch in this world, and let the chance to botch cover it. After all, the chance to botch means that any spell can literally kill you if it goes wrong, and too much power is one way in which a spell goes wrong all the time--just ask anyone who ever got an explosion result.
Ummm...sort of. Actually, the botch under this rule would be more akin to their heart stops, as the energy the spell requires drains out of them until their body and soul is depleted. Sort of the opposite of an explosion. So, that covers most of it. However, attempting to do certain things with the Will and the Word is, for all intents and purposes, simply impossible. I would rule that any spell a player designs with a chance to fail greater than 100% simply kills the player.
Also, no one except for the protagonist (who is, of course, special) has ever succeeded in bringing back the dead. You also may not teleport. I suppose those spell types would have a massive sit mod penalty, sort of like a partial powerblock.
I think flying would have to be powerblocked as well, since so much of the story is in essence a footrace, and psionic or magical flying simply moves too fast, just like teleportation. Flight is achieved in the books but through morphing into birds, and the fact that that's the fastest mode of travel is absolutely crucial.
I'm pretty convinced after what MJ posted that going with a high magic bias and flatlined psionic is the way to go.
The magic that is used is easily holy magic, as there are two opposing prophecies which are godlike entities effectively playing chess with the world.
How would I handle the idea that magic users can sense when other people use magic?
Give them all a Detect Magic skill that is always operational, and create a world rule that it always works within that world. If anyone with that skill verses out, they would have to roll for it to work in any other world.
How would I handle the ability to conceal other magic users sensing you and how do I make it harder to conceal larger surges of power?
Use a protection from detects skill and link its protection to RS. I'm not certain whether by larger surges of power you mean higher biased skills or greater successes, but there are several possibilities:
The roll of the protection skill can create a threshold for the roll of the magic skill, so that if the roll of the magic skill exceeds that of the protection skill it is detectable, but if it doesn't it is concealed.
The roll of the protection skill can be scaled against the bias of the magic skill. You can make it the decimalized bias, in which case a successful roll of 100 (which only the most powerful mages would be able to get) would block detection of anything through a 9@10 skill, but a 10@1 would not be blocked by any roll. If you want higher, you can simply double the roll, so that a 15@10 (decimalized 160) would be indetectable if the roll was at least 80.
You could use comparative relative success against the detect skill, such that if the caster is trying to hide the use of magic he rolls his protection skill, and the one who might detect it (who doesn't usually have to roll his "always on" detect magic skill) rolls (or you roll secretly for him so the player isn't alerted to something the character does not know), and if the detect is higher than the protect the skill is detected, but otherwise (including on a tie) it is not.
This got my mind going and I think I came up with how I will end up doing it, and it's a combination of a bunch of the above.
The first clarification of larger surges of power is where I was unclear. A mage has to gather his willpower and then release it with a word. This is how they use magic, thus the phrase "the Will and the Word".
A large surge of power occurs in two instances. One is a very high bias skill (resurrection is high bias I assume and it is the loudest skill in the book, that being almost impossible to miss from people who can sense it)
The other however can happen with any level of skill, and simply the clumsy and quick gathering of willpower which occurs from trying to reach a level too high.
The three factors I see as important here are:
1. How fast the willpower is gathered (An instant spell will be easier to detect than one with a time factor)
2. The bias of the skill
3. The number rolled on the skill use
I would do:
1. between +0 and +20 for time factors from 30 seconds to instant (RF) respectively.
2. the decimalized bias of the skill divided by 2
3. 10% of the rolled number.
I think that should work rather well, and satisfies me in terms of following the theme of why it's happening.
I believe the magic used in the book would be TF, as it takes a little time to gather the willpower to do what they want.
Morphing can be psionic, magical, technological, or body. If you're talking about a creature that is not otherwise magic-using (e.g., werewolf), it's probably best to use body-based morphing. If you're talking about a "wizard" who has the ability, it's best to put it in the same category as whatever comprises his stronger skills. Both magic and psionics distinguish between taking the shape of another creature and becoming another creature.
It is definitely becoming the other creature. The books go into great detail about how deep the transformation is, and how while in the shape you feel the natural instincts and the world just seems different.
All magic would be bonused in some fashion by the idea that using too much energy in a spell can literally kill you, as spells cannot be canceled once cast.
I would object to this unless it proves to be particularly common. Instead, I would say that an uncontrolled release of power fatal to the caster is the most common botch in this world, and let the chance to botch cover it. After all, the chance to botch means that any spell can literally kill you if it goes wrong, and too much power is one way in which a spell goes wrong all the time--just ask anyone who ever got an explosion result.
It does happen fairly often, and it's not exactly like a botch. A botch is saying you've done the magic wrong. This magic simply drains you whether you do it right or wrong. Using one spell after another increases the chance that it's going to start hurting more and more each time. It's not exactly hitpoint damage though, but more of a mental and spiritual strain that if pushed past a limit would undo a person.
I was thinking maybe a world rule that everyone has a number of soul points, which replenish to full in an hour of non exhaustive activity or rest. Each spell would detract a number of soul points from the reserve, and if it ever reached 0, the character would die. An important aspect however is the character has a rough feel for how far he can push himself but can never be sure.
Speaking of world rules and undoing, the act of trying to undo (erase from the fabric of the universe, more than kill) actually causes the person trying to do it to be undone. Is there a way to do this through world rules?
It was also a big deal when the protagonist created a flower for his girl cousin?? It later turns out that creating a new thing takes energy directly from the magician whereas most magic is...
Draw in magic from area....focus on idea....activate by word.
Its considered seriously bad to delete something from existence which is the opposite of creation.
Edit: Mostly ninja'd by Glantri who treats this in more depth and accuracy.
Second post...
Maybe you could do an escalating Stamina check (or Willpower check) as you do more magic. Failure would be...bad if failed by more than ten points. Bad for values of being versed out, that is.
It was also a big deal when the protagonist created a flower for his girl cousin?? It later turns out that creating a new thing takes energy directly from the magician whereas most magic is...
Quick clarification, the energy in that instance was drawn directly from the protagonist but it wasn't because creation ALWAYS draws from the creator, but the fact that the protagonist didn't have the training yet to do it properly and didn't realize the difficulty and hadn't gathered enough willpower from the surrounding.
Maybe you could do an escalating Stamina check (or Willpower check) as you do more magic. Failure would be...bad to really bad.
That is a little too random for my taste, for something that is used so often. A run of the mill skill is never going to push the caster over the edge unless he has been casting spells without regard for his own limits prior to it.
I decided that for John Cross in particular I wanted him to be John Conner and deal with the temporal problems as John Conner. Had it been anyone else, I probably would have ignored much of John Conner's childhood and brought the verser into the story as an added character.
Any other verser can verse out. John Connor gets trapped in an infinity loop if he verses out. I knew it.
You could probably apply a "template" to all spells created using the Will and the Word rules, a few specific modifications that all spells share, including the "noise" and such. You know, for uniformity. Simply determine what changes from the baseline spell to the Will and the Word spell version for most spells, and get your powerblocks straight, and you can quickly determine how your system handles a given spell the character comes up with.
Soul points: I don't know that that would work, but maybe. Sounds like a lot of paperwork. Ask MJ. Personally, I would apply a cumulative sit mod penalty to all magic utilizing the Will and the Word, and once their chance to cast drops below 0 for a given spell, they die, with the penalty reducing the longer they go without casting, decreasing faster if they rest. I would also allow intensive meditation (read: sensory deprivation, world tuned out meditation) to quickly restore their energy. I would use descriptive text to tell them how tired they are, and warn them if their character believes they may not be able to cast a given spell in their current condition. I would probably link sensing their own limits to an Intuition check.
For undoing someone: Simply say that the god-entities of the universe destroy anyone who attempts it. Treat it as base obliterative damage, with high enough intensity nothing, not even the Gods (which are more akin to extremely powerful spiritual entities than true Gods), can survive it. A verser who is unmade simply verses out, with a chance of zygoting due to total bodily destruction.
Skill levels and new spells: Because characters usually create a spell on the spot as they need them, most Will and the Word spells will be low skill. However, some spells they use ARE practiced. I would say that the mental drain and "noise" values should lower as well as the skill level increases, to represent their knowledge, as opposed to raw power and natural talent.
Oh, and MJ: Yes, that does help. Thank you. Oh, also, I'm going to hold off on my own game thread for a day or two. I have other things on my mind, and even though I don't have to, I still read pretty much every thread, so I am pretty busy with this forum as it is. Besides, you are really busy lately, and you need time to catch up on your articles and other stuff, I'm sure.
Footnote: Well, that should cover all the bases for what I see right now. More on this as it develops. Oh, and I find this world particularly appealing, as this is one of my favorite series. I will do all I can to help this world's development. I would so love to visit this world at some point, hehe. Of course, saying that means the likelihood of it happening goes down, because the player shouldn't know where he is going, but meh.
I agree with the template entirely, and that sounds like a great idea. I had intended to treat it in a similar way but didn't put the word to it or get it completely straight in my head.
Soul points: I don't know that that would work, but maybe. Sounds like a lot of paperwork. Ask MJ. Personally, I would apply a cumulative sit mod penalty to all magic utilizing the Will and the Word, and once their chance to cast drops below 0 for a given spell, they die, with the penalty reducing the longer they go without casting, decreasing faster if they rest. I would also allow intensive meditation (read: sensory deprivation, world tuned out meditation) to quickly restore their energy. I would use descriptive text to tell them how tired they are, and warn them if their character believes they may not be able to cast a given spell in their current condition. I would probably link sensing their own limits to an Intuition check.
Hmm, I agree the soul points seem awkward, but I figured it was a starting point. I like your idea except for one thing. It makes casting the spell more difficult, along with the power of the spell reduced as you grow weary. There is no sign that the casting of the spell is harder in the books, but just the effects become drastically less impressive as they get tired. I think I would rather give a negative effective roll, and if it ever makes even the best possible roll 0 the person would die from it.
I agree on the descriptive text, and I think I would give them that feeling if they were below 25% of their maximum power. Enough room that they may still push it a little, but little enough room that it's dangerous.
The skill levels of some of the more signature moves would be relatively high in my opinion. Garion has a long time to train under Belgarath, who I would consider to be a high expert in teaching, or perhaps trainer is more appropriate, as he can show Garion to reach levels he himself never actually reaches.
In order for a character to be Garion (the books main protagonist) it would have to be a zygote experience, as both his birthmark and his bloodline are so critical to the story.
If your character ever verses out in a zygote-possible way, or you wish to make another character I'd be happy to run you through the world after I get the details ironed out.
Hmm. To tell the truth, I would only want to run through that world if I have not already learned magic cast in a different way. Takes away from the experience, to me. Also, the world is better for someone who has not actually read the books(due to metagaming issues inherent in any story with a Prophecy and a story the player already knows). But anyway...
I still think tying how well casters guage sensing their own limits should be an Intuition check, failure resulting in them misestimating by a few %.
Skill levels: Due to the way MV works, skills only level up if they are the exact same spell, with the same ritual and all. You could probably say that the word used doesn't matter for Will and the Word, but some Word is always required, and words directly correlated to what you are doing offer more bonus. I believe there is a way to say that a given variable can be changed on the fly, but it applies a negative sit mod to the total. Flexibility necessarily sacrifices rigidity, and the rigid, static nature of the ritual is what lends itself to 'practice making perfect'. One gets much better at something if they do it in exactly the same way faster than they do when they change it up a little each time.
Since other variables, like TF, are usually set in stone for spells utilizing the Will and the Word, that is not really a factor. Gestures are. If someone casts a spell with a hand wave 1000 times, then cast it without a hand wave, it's not as effective, as they are used to hand waving. The difference is mild, sure. But it is there, and that is what matters. To make it the same spell, you again have to add flexibility, reducing the benefit of the hand wave (or whatever).
This is why I believe these characters have a plethora of spells doing the same thing in a slightly different way, thus at slightly lower skill levels, with a high skill level in the most commonly executed version of the spell.
Example: Polgara casts a spell with an outstretched hand. She always has a flair for the dramatic. Her father Belgarath chides her for being so overt, and tried to get her not to do that. She continues to do it her way anyway, in spite of her father.
Years later, as she has grown extremely proficient with this spell, it becomes necessary for her to cast this spell without the gesture (due to an in-game situation). Either the spell is flexible and the gesture can be removed on the fly, making the spell harder from the get go, or she creates a new spell on the fly similar to the old one, with bonuses on the learning attempt from her high bias from years and years of practice casting magic in general. Ask MJ for numbers pertaining to the whole built in flexibility schtick; we were discussing it a long time ago in one thread or another.
Another way to pull this whole thing off is to state the Will and the Word is a powerful 15@10 Do Anything spell, the strongest spell there is, with sit mod bonuses from the built-in limitations (and benefits), and you follow the rules given in the book (which I do not have) for Do Anything spells.
1. between +0 and +20 for time factors from 30 seconds to instant (RF) respectively.
2. the decimalized bias of the skill divided by 2
3. 10% of the rolled number.
I'm trying to make sense of this. Let's assume I'm casting a 0:18 TF for a M9@1 Create Light.
- Since TFs are usually divisible by 6 (because you're going to halve them at professional and cut them to a third at expert), TF's from 30 to RF will be 0:06, 0:12, 0:18, 0:24, and 0:30. An RF skill is assumed to be 0:06 when time matters, but can happen at 0:00 of a minute because of the vagaries of the fact that we're not really all starting at once. (That's why instant activation defenses also happen at 0:00 but can be beaten by a steal initiative.) So we're probably looking at 20, 16, 12, 8, and 4 respectively. That means I'm looking at 12 for the 0:18 TF.
- It's a M9@1 skill, so half of 91 is 46, which added to the 12 makes 58.
- Assuming that my skill ability level is 2@1 and my BRA is 2@1, and that this is the highest biased skill I know, that's 21+21+18=60% chance of success. My roll is going to be between 1 and 60 if it succeeds, so that's not less than 0 and not more than 6, we'll say 6, since I don't know how you're determining the one tenth. Added to the previous 58 gives me 64.
Now, what is that 64? I've got the number (and it was a fair amount of work to get it, incidentally), but I'm not certain at this point what you want to do with it.
It does happen fairly often, and it's not exactly like a botch. A botch is saying you've done the magic wrong. This magic simply drains you whether you do it right or wrong. Using one spell after another increases the chance that it's going to start hurting more and more each time. It's not exactly hitpoint damage though, but more of a mental and spiritual strain that if pushed past a limit would undo a person.
I think you've interpreted a botch a bit too narrowly here. Or perhaps you've interpreted "do it wrong" too narrowly. If I attempt to cast a spell and I cannot get the power needed to do it, then I have failed to do it right, and by default have done it wrong.
Now, maybe you want this botch outcome to be more likely on high powered skills and in situations in which the character has been casting magic repeatedly or with little preparation time. That's something you'll do subjectively, and you'll note it in the world design, that whenever there is a botch on a high-powered skill or on a skill cast in the midst of many other skills, this is a possible botch result.
I was thinking maybe a world rule that everyone has a number of soul points, which replenish to full in an hour of non exhaustive activity or rest. Each spell would detract a number of soul points from the reserve, and if it ever reached 0, the character would die. An important aspect however is the character has a rough feel for how far he can push himself but can never be sure.
I'm going to join those who say this is a bad idea. For one thing, it ties the performance of magic to something the character isn't going to take with him when he leaves the world, and does so in a way that ought to grant a bonus to the spell but can't matter once you are out of the world.
I'll note that there is provision for a bonus to the use of a skill if the result is that the character is exhausted. It is +5 if the character must rest immediately thereafter. You're not talking something as exhausting as that, but I think you could establish as part of your template +1 to all spells, and all spells result in a potentially cumulative fatigue that is relieved by a specified period of rest but results in -1 to any other magic skill performed before the rest is complete (and a canceling of the benefits of the rest to that point). This does make the skill less likely to succeed and potentially less potent. More on this below.
Speaking of world rules and undoing, the act of trying to undo (erase from the fabric of the universe, more than kill) actually causes the person trying to do it to be undone. Is there a way to do this through world rules?
The act of undoing someone entirely is temporal tampering, if I understand it aright; that is, if you are changing history such that a targeted individual was never created, you're trying to create a temporal anomaly. It's a very serious anomaly, because it's going to cause an infinity loop (if you've prevented them from ever having existed, you've prevented yourself from having any reason to do so). That's already a 15@10 skill. My recommendation, though, is that someone in the supernatural realm is monitoring the thoughts and plans of magic-using characters, and that anyone who is about to attempt such a spell will be destroyed by this entity before they can complete the skill. (I would not have them erased from history, however. I can argue that the gods are able to do this without creating an anomaly, since they are outside time and so can make an action of theirs permanent across timelines, but it makes the gameplay itself much more difficult--the characters who witnessed the undoing did not witness the undoing, and those who knew the one undone never knew him, and while some players can handle that, not all can.)
Hmm, I agree the soul points seem awkward, but I figured it was a starting point. I like your idea except for one thing. It makes casting the spell more difficult, along with the power of the spell reduced as you grow weary. There is no sign that the casting of the spell is harder in the books, but just the effects become drastically less impressive as they get tired. I think I would rather give a negative effective roll, and if it ever makes even the best possible roll 0 the person would die from it.
Probably what you're looking for is cumulative "damage mods". That is, the chance of success remains the same, but there is a penalty against the roll for effects purposes only. Thus my roll in the above example might be 60 and would still succeed, but if my cumulative penalties had reached -10 the effect is going to be as if I had rolled a successful 50.
However, I would be uncomfortable with the rule that says "if it ever makes even the best possible roll 0" because it's a lot more paperwork than you think it is. Remember, each spell is going to have a different chance of success, because SALs are going to vary. For a decent wizard, even a 1@1 skill is going to have a chance of success in the low to mid forties, so you'd have to accrue a lot of points to cancel that much. Further, to run a game smoothly (not just Multiverser), you'll find that you frequently roll the dice and determine the outcome without ever checking the chart or crunching the numbers. I've you've ever played old D&D, when your party is facing a bunch of orcs and they roll threes and fours you know they missed, and when they roll eighteens and nineteens you know they hit, and it's only in the middle rolls that you bother to find out what they actually needed to roll. You do the same thing with Multiverser: you roll the dice and look at them, and eventually you'll know for four out of five rolls whether you need to crunch numbers to get your answer. But if you add a rule that says "when the chance of success minus this accumulated value equals zero, this happens", now you have to know the chance of success a lot more frequently before you roll the dice.
It's probably better if you're going to track points to track them against stamina or resistance. For one thing, it means you won't have the complication that a higher SAL skill is less likely to result in death than a lower SAL skill.
I'm still favoring it as a possible botch outcome, though.
Years later, as she has grown extremely proficient with this spell, it becomes necessary for her to cast this spell without the gesture (due to an in-game situation). Either the spell is flexible and the gesture can be removed on the fly, making the spell harder from the get go, or she creates a new spell on the fly similar to the old one, with bonuses on the learning attempt from her high bias from years and years of practice casting magic in general.
My inclination is that the gesture was never part of the ritual but was part of her own flair. If there is evidence that the absence of the gesture makes a difference, then I would go with the idea that she is creating a new spell without the gesture, using the old spell as an example for learning purposes. Alternately, there could be two skills, one of which is the use of a gesture in an instant use skill bonus.
As to the rules for "Do Anything", well, there aren't really many given. I figured by the time the referee got to reading 15@10 magic skills he'd be pretty clear as to what was required to design such a skill, and since it covers both wishes and specific skills not otherwise defined within the book, it isn't really that easy to supply with generalized parameters.
--M. J. Young
The act of undoing someone entirely is temporal tampering, if I understand it aright; that is, if you are changing history such that a targeted individual was never created, you're trying to create a temporal anomaly. It's a very serious anomaly, because it's going to cause an infinity loop (if you've prevented them from ever having existed, you've prevented yourself from having any reason to do so). That's already a 15@10 skill. My recommendation, though, is that someone in the supernatural realm is monitoring the thoughts and plans of magic-using characters, and that anyone who is about to attempt such a spell will be destroyed by this entity before they can complete the skill. (I would not have them erased from history, however. I can argue that the gods are able to do this without creating an anomaly, since they are outside time and so can make an action of theirs permanent across timelines, but it makes the gameplay itself much more difficult--the characters who witnessed the undoing did not witness the undoing, and those who knew the one undone never knew him, and while some players can handle that, not all can.)
Oh, it's not as dramatic as all that. They aren't erased from history; it's more akin to a complete disintegration coupled with a complete soul destruction attempt. That is to say, they still existed up until that point; they don't exist now. Only, of course, that it automatically fails and backfires. Never use the Will and the Word and scream "Be Not!" at your foe. A powerful antagonist can attest to that.
I don't think the Will and the Word can affect time-streams. It is akin to Shadowrun magic, actually. Have you played Shadowrun? No teleporting, no time travel, and no bringing back the dead (except once, but that broke the normal rule because the Hero is Special-See link below). Those spell effects would be powerblocked from use with the Will and the Word type magic (other magic may or may not be blocked from doing so-I dunno how that works)
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BecauseDestinySaysSo
Oh another link for background on this world:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FarmBoy
bump
just in case the forum marks the above post as spam. it seems to do that whenever i put in two or more links for some reason, thus this is here for MJ to unmark it as sapm should that happen.
I meant to reply about the undoing aspect earlier but I guess I forgot to get around to it. Shame on me.
Like Brock mentioned, it's not undoing them from history but causing the atoms they are made of just disappear. Not going anywhere but ceasing to exist anywhere.
The no teleporting and no time travel I agree should be powerblocked. I don't think bringing someone back from the dead would be, as for one the protagonist proves it's possible, and secondly because the reason it is said to be impossible is because it's so unlikely to work and so likely to kill the user.
You don't need to powerblock time travel if there are no wishes; just curve out 15@10 skills. Note that a djinni can still grant wishes in the same way that a god can answer prayers: he doesn't have to be able to have a "do anything" as long as he can think of a way to do whatever it is that is requested.
So all you need to powerblock is the teleporting.
I know there's a disintegrate skill somewhere, but I'm too late and too pressed for time tonight to track it down, so remind me if someone doesn't find it first.
--M. J. Young
Ok, so I've got a lot that I've made note of on the series (reread 4 of the 5 books of the Belgariad, and plan to go right into the Mallorean after that)
I think I have enough notes that I could try running this for someone, as it would take a very long time for them to be up to the point I've reread and taken notes on now.
I still feel like zygoting the person into the story so they would take Garion's place would be the correct path, as it gives them the best method of being introduced to the characters and understand all their unique abilities.
If anyone is interested in letting me run a version of them through this let me know. We'll have to come up with a scenario in which you were so violently killed that a zygote experience were possible, but I'm sure we can manage that.
(Part of why I haven't posted my notes is for whoever I run it for some of my notes would give away what I think are neat surprises. I'll post them after I'm in the process of running someone and ask question when I need advice.)
I'm also open to running someone in a different world if they have a suggestion, I just don't have any books so it would have to be something like "Have you seen this TV show? You have? Cool, want to run me in it?" Or same thing with a book.