Second is correct.
"I don't want to, I enjoy it, but I will if you ask nicely."
Two
The problem, Eric, that I have with you running the game is how well do you know the time travel theory? It seems I don't know it as well as I believed I did, how about you?
I won't be running Terminator. I'll have you in another world.
Well then what do you propose to happen to my character where he is now? If I'm right, I can't verse out of this world, because it would catch me in an infinity loop. Looks like this is a no go. I categorically will not accept this referee transfer unless I can stay in the world I'm in, period. I thought you were gonna take over Terminator.
There are ways around that, and you'll probably end up coming back to this world. But those are not the key point. The key point is that I am offering you a course in manners as a gamer. It will be good for you, and if my fairly large number of impressed players are right, it will also be a lot of fun. In any case, you will likely learn some things.
And no, I will not discuss this point with you further.
Well, I'm wondering what you have in mind. Would you play it like I just versed out of TerraNova? What would happen to my skills and whatnot? I mean suppose I get to 3@10 gun skills under your reign, do I get to keep that when I come back here? You said you wouldn't discuss it, but I just want to know what you're thinking. If you really don't want to discuss it further, that's fine too, we just won't do it. I already switched refs once with no idea of what was happening, I'm not making that mistake again.
You would keep your skills you gained.
You do realize that my character is currently a seven month old infant who can't verse out of the scenario, right? I want to know what you have in mind for how to do this. If you don't want to discuss it that's fine, we just won't do it. I'm not going to have another trip like I did with Adam. I'm sorry, but that's the way it is. If MJ really wanted to get rid of me, just have Adam take over my next world. I'd stop playing.
The problem is not me, John. I can understand why you want to continue as you are. You have it good. You get to harrass us each and every day, and I promise to put a stop to that for the good of all.
All I want to know is how you're planning to handle the verse out and verse back in. If that's too much to ask, then forget it.
When I was 19, I got into some trouble with some guys I worked with. They were ex-military. They thought the best way to handle me was to push me around and bully me into submitting to their supposed authority. (Read, arrogance) Uh, no. That had been happening to me all of my life. More of the same wasn't going to help. What finally solved the problem was they accepted that I wasn't normal, that I really didn't mean to be as petulant and insulting as they perceived, and after that, we became friends. One of them is still one of my best friends to this day. Perhaps that's what needs to happen here?
I mean, not to be too blunt, but pushing me around and bullying me into submitting to your supposed authority sounds pretty close to what you have in mind.
<sarc>You see how well it worked when Adam tried it......</sarc>
Brock's head emits steam from the ears
Who is the bully, John? Who!? Your behavior indicates that you believe your opinion is the only one that matters, that you are the single most important individual around, that everything should revolve around you, and that the rules do not apply to you because you do not want them to!
You are a classic narcissist, and I seriously doubt all people suffering from psychosis are also narcissistic. Narcissism is more the trait of a sociopath than that of someone suffering from a debilitating physical condition in the brain, so that cannot be your excuse. It's your personality.
Just because YOU got pushed around all the time does not give you the right to do it back! Why should we endure your slings and arrows without ever getting to return in kind? What makes you so special?
Have you ever wondered what kind of problems I have to deal with? Did you know that I happen to have no income and have been turned down from 850 different jobs in the past 6 months? Did you know that I am overweight enough that I have a high blood pressure, and if I do not drop the pounds I am far more likely to have a heart attack? Did you know that my two brothers and my sister are all in foster care, and I almost never get to see them? Did you know my mother kicked me out of her house because she wanted more time alone with her BOYFRIEND?
Have I ever brought these problems to the board? Not until now. Why not? I don't want to burden all my friends here with my problems, and so I endure. It's called RESPECT, and right about now, I don't have a drop of it for you.
Who is the bully, John? Who!? Your behavior indicates that you believe your opinion is the only one that matters, that you are the single most important individual around, that everything should revolve around you, and that the rules do not apply to you because you do not want them to!
May I remind you that you are constantly misreading what I say? If I was trying to be insulting, there wouldn't be any doubt. There's an example of this right up a few posts. I think you may need to reread what I said about how they accepted that I wasn't normal. I had a friend who had an absolutely gorgeous 8 year old daughter. I always felt like he didn't trust me around her. I'm a paranoid psychotic and he had a beautiful daughter. That was the entire reason for it. What I finally realized is that if he didn't trust me around her, there wouldn't be any doubt, because I wouldn't be allowed in his house anymore. If I was trying to be insulting, there wouldn't be any doubt. If something I say sounds insulting to you, you're very likely reading it wrong.
Have you ever wondered what kind of problems I have to deal with? Did you know that I happen to have no income and have been turned down from 850 different jobs in the past 6 months? Did you know that I am overweight enough that I have a high blood pressure, and if I do not drop the pounds I am far more likely to have a heart attack? Did you know that my two brothers and my sister are all in foster care, and I almost never get to see them? Did you know my mother kicked me out of her house because she wanted more time alone with her BOYFRIEND?
Respectfully Brock, how can talking about any of this here solve it for you? I've got very similar problems to the ones you describe. I have high blood pressure. There's a 50/50 chance I also have a heart condition that could kill me at a moment's notice. It's a defect that has wiped out at least 3 generations of men on my father's side. I don't know for sure, I don't want to know for sure. Only thing that could solve it is a heart transplant. When I was 16, my own mother pulled a very similar stunt to the one you're describing. Endangered the safety of three minor children for a guy she barely knew. I don't burden you with those. There would be no point. It can't solve it. The problems I talk about here are problems that can be solved by talking about it. It's not the first time I've done something like this. For what it's worth, it's about 98% out of my head. That was achieved through the discussions on this board. That solved the problems. If talking about your problems here had a snowball's chance in hell of solving them for you, I'd be cheering you on to talk about them to your heart's content.
You don't really begrudge me trying to solve my problems the only way I know how, do you? If talking about your problems could make your problems go away, I wouldn't try to stop you for a second.
I for one have had enough of one person holding us hostage, if he was a member of an face to face gaming group, I think we'd all agree to stop inviting him, confront him about his behavior nicely, and when that didn't work, bluntly. Since we are a public message board, most of the above approaches don't work. I am only responding here since I see Brock and a few others getting angry, and are trying to be nice about it. I believe he has gone past the victim and become the bully here, and most of us are just too nice to say it. We have to make him leave by having MJ play further into his games? Here is what I suggest gentleman, Eric please don't waste your time taking John as a player, I'd rather have Nik start his game up again with that time, Brock and the others, just ignore him and stop responding to his posts. He feeds off responses, and once he recognizes that most of the board doesn't want to deal with him anymore, he may leave, he may throw a tantrum. At this point, he has become a cancer, driven people away from the boards. I've said my peace, John can type whatever he wants to or about me, he and it just don't exist to me anymore.
Adam
Its not 'supposed' authority John. That's really the whole point right there. Its the real thing.
You have to be willing to trust that authority. You cannot properly parachute from a plane without letting go of the plane.
I'm still not even sure what I'm doing wrong. Asking questions to learn from old games in an effort to clear my head? That's a crime now? That's what has everyone up in arms? I gave up arguing about Pearl Harbor a LOOOOOONG time ago. Now I'm just trying to complete the learning process.
Brock recently flipped out because I asked him to come up with some stats for zombies. He thought I was being sarcastic or something. Didn't ask me to clarify, just flipped out. And then he says I have a problem.
You say you want me to trust you. OK, I'll trust you. Do whatever it is you want to do. I'd feel a lot more comfortable about it if you would at least tell me how you're planning to handle the verse out, and I don't see why that's such an unreasonable thing to ask, but I'll trust you.
OK John. I'll have your post up by tonight or tommorrow. And thank you.
So does this mean that I let the Terminator thread die or what? Or can I run in two worlds at once? And what about my character sheet? And if I get caught in an infinity loop, I'm gonna find you and (This message has been deleted by the censors)
I'll arrange it as Oak did so that you have a chance to go back to the Terminator thread, but now it is in hiatus. And I will do what I can which is considerable to make sure that if you're caught in an infinity loop it is not even a little bit of my doing.
If you could repost your character sheet at sometime in the next few days on this thread, that would be helpful.
Well, I don't remember agreeing to this, but it seems to be happening, so I'll cover the bases as well as I can.
Eric, I'll get you that character sheet today.
John, I'm thinking my way through to wrap up your situation.
--M. J. Young
Hmm. Well, all I know is that every time I read another post of John being rude (usually to MJ, whom I consider a friend) I start getting a headache. I don't like seeing my friends being treated like this. I especially dislike the player who whines at his GM until he gets what he wants for his character, having been unfortunate to encounter 5 of them in the scant 4 years I have been running games-and I haven't had many groups in that time (they are always short lived and falling apart due to discrepancies in personal lives, my current two being the most stable I have ever had).
Brock, you're constantly accusing me of being rude even when there was none intended or implied. It seems to me that you just enjoy finding rudeness in my writing.
Two
And I admit, I'm guilty of finding rudeness where none was meant. When MJ said that he thought I would get involved in Pearl Harbor because every other player he knows would do it, I misread it. I read that as "John hasn't done anything I've expected up to this point, but as soon as I drop him in Pearl Harbor, he'll fall in line and follow the herd like he's supposed to." That was why I got upset about it, just so you know.
We're all guilty of it. The thing is, I get in trouble when I do it, but when Brock does it, people cheer him on. I'm not nearly as rude as Brock makes me out to be. I still say the problem isn't completely at my end.
For what it's worth, John, when Brock says you appear to be rude, most of the people reading here are in agreement that you do come across as rude; when you perceive others as being rude, most of the others on the board have no idea why you thought that, and sometimes still don't see it after you've explained it.
Sure, you know what you meant and you don't know what anyone else meant. On the other hand, most people here understand what everyone else means and miss what you mean far too frequently. That strongly suggests that the problem lies in your communications skills.
--M. J. Young
That friend who had the 8 year old daughter whom I was talking about on the other page. I haven't spoken to him in over a decade. I looked up his 8 year old daughter (now in her early 20s) to try to make contact with my old friend. I was telling her a story about a time when I comforted her when she was crying, at age 8. I called her a "baby" at age 8, because in my eyes, she was a baby. A helpless innocent who needed to be protected. She got quite upset by the implication that I saw her as a baby. Tell me you don't see a crying 8 year old girl as a baby, and I'll call you a liar. From what she was telling me, it would have been difficult to NOT infuriate her. How a decade changed her, ya know? What I'm saying is, sometimes people just misread you, and there's nothing you can do about it.
I didn't want to make a new topic for this but it's about Eric and rolling. Eric and I had a similar conversation 5 years ago about rolls. It was worked out Eric would run the game behind the scenes like the way Multiverser is stated in the book, and that when the current world was over, I would ask questions about skill increases (it got to the point where most of them appeared in the game). I can honestly say, I don't doubt the roles Eric does, and I have tried some pretty off the wall stuff. It helped the flow of the game, and it turned more from a argue about the rules game into a flow from player to referee and vice versa and it works very well.
Adam
Brock, I realize that I am the only one who talks about his problems here. I am also the only one who can solve his problems by talking about them here. I don't try to stop you from solving your problems any which way you can. Why are you trying to stop me from solving mine the only way I can? If there was someone here who could help you get a job, or offer you legal aid to get your siblings back, or offer you a place to stay, I wouldn't be trying to stop you from talking about them. Why are you trying to stop me from solving my problems? I don't try to stop you from solving your problems.
I have little problem about you wanting to talk about it; it's when you say it in a manner that makes it seem like all that matters is you. But enough; I'm done with this. I'll just try to ignore the rudeness as best i can, because this is going nowhere and MJ has to read all this.
I have little problem about you wanting to talk about it; it's when you say it in a manner that makes it seem like all that matters is you.
And that is where YOU have a problem, I think. I've never once said it like that. Not intentionally, anyway.
Tell me you don't see a crying 8 year old girl as a baby, and I'll call you a liar.
John, you've never had kids, and apparently you don't remember being a kid. An eight-year-old considers himself (or herself) one of the big kids, and certainly not a baby; and although there is a sense in which my twenty-mumble-year-old kids are all still our babies, they haven't been babies since they morphed into toddlers twenty-mumble years ago, and they would object to being called babies when they weren't.
I don't try to stop you from solving your problems any which way you can. Why are you trying to stop me from solving mine the only way I can?
Well, there is the little matter that you're treating this as if we were your talk therapy group, and that wasn't in the agreement when people first came here. I would be harsher about it, but you have in the main kept most of your efforts in side threads which makes them optional (except when you derail a thread that was about something productive for others).
I have little problem about you wanting to talk about it; it's when you say it in a manner that makes it seem like all that matters is you.And that is where YOU have a problem, I think. I've never once said it like that. Not intentionally, anyway.
Not intentionally but effectively you have made a lot of threads turn into a discussion of John's problems. More pointedly, we frequently have this sort of situation:
- John announces that he has a problem in relation to someone else.
- John expects that person to change to accommodate him.
- That person does not wish to change.
- John becomes incensed that the other person won't change, and insists that the other person is wrong and unreasonable because they will not conform to John's expectations.
It may well be that part of your condition causes you to be self-centered and drives you to treat the rest of us as if we exist for you to resolve your problems, and that we ought to accommodate you because of your condition. That is not why we are here, and we are not obligated to accommodate you. We choose to do so in the hope that you will learn to relate to others more appropriately through our examples and pressure.
--M. J. Young
Well, there is the little matter that you're treating this as if we were your talk therapy group, and that wasn't in the agreement when people first came here.
Put yourself in my shoes MJ. If you could make your depression go away for good and all by doing exactly what I've done, would you do it? I think you would be lying to yourself and to everyone here if you said you wouldn't at least consider it.
*Speaking slowly and calmly*
Ever consider putting yourself in someone else's shoes? You ask people to put themselves in your shoes constantly, but you don't appear to be doing it yourself. Reciprocation is key to having a successful relationship, and those that do not will inevitably drive others away from themselves.
Why do you think that this only started becoming such an outstanding issue now? Many people are tired of trying to be patient with you when you never seem to change. Of course, if your past behavior is any indication, my saying this will change nothing, no matter what way I say it. You will simply rebuke me, and if you cannot find fault in the message of what I am saying, you will find one specific line or phrase and respond negatively to it to the exclusion of the rest, so that once again someone besides you can be the bad guy.
*sigh*
you will find one specific line or phrase and respond negatively to it to the exclusion of the rest, so that once again someone besides you can be the bad guy.
Did you ever consider that maybe the reason I do that is because I agree with everything else that was said? I agree with everything MJ said up there. Why waste more of his time telling him that? No reply goes to status quo, or so I thought. Status quo, I agree with you. The one line I pick out is the only part I don't agree with. What you saw as blatant rudeness was actually an attempt to stick to the salient points and save time.
Once again Brock, reading rudeness in where none was meant or implied, and never even asking for an explanation.
Rude behavior and language is rude whether or not you intend it.
Rudeness is a societal concept, and as such is defined by society. Society is defined by the majority. We are the majority, who all see what you write as rude, thus it is rude.
I've meant to post this for some time but have been fighting with myself over whether I should as I doubt it will do any good.
PS. I really don't care to be asked to be put into someone elses shoes and the phrase alone implies you have it worse off than everyone else. I'm sick and tired of that implication. Life is hard, for everyone, just in different ways.
PS. I really don't care to be asked to be put into someone elses shoes and the phrase alone implies you have it worse off than everyone else.
Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you will be a mile away and have their shoes. (A joke)
And no, that saying does not imply that someone else has it worse off than you do. It implies that you may not have the full story. When I was in high school, I was on the soccer team. I generally alternated between ball boy and bench warmer. As ball boy, I was supposed to have a ball in my hand, and throw it back when the ball in play came off the field, then chase the one that came out. One time, before the game I left the ball in hand where it was and went to the bathroom or something. When I came back, some kid had taken the other ball. He was standing down at the other end of the field with the other ball. The game just started. I had to make a choice. Do I chase that kid down and try to get the other ball back, or do I try to keep the one in play? I chose to try to keep the one in play. For all I know, that kid is going to take off with it, he's got a 50 yard head start, I'd never catch him. To chase him would be abandoning my post. Right or wrong, that was the decision that I made. So, it took me a lot longer to get the ball in play than it should have. The next day, of course, everyone is telling me how I messed up. None of them have ever done ball boy, what right do they have to tell me I'm doing it wrong? I got sick of it. I started saying back "You don't like the way I do it? Next time, do it yourself." (In other words, put yourself in my shoes) I publicly issued that challenge to everyone on the team. Guess what? Next week, I was the ball boy. They weren't going to walk a mile in my shoes, and they didn't have the full story.
John did not quite say
Put yourself in my shoes MJ. If you could make your pain go away for good and all by hurting everyone else, would you do it?
O.K., John, put yourselves in our shoes: if someone was trying to get away from his severe pain by giving it to you, would you distance yourself from that person as far as you could, or accept the pain?
To some degree, I accept the pain. I have people in my life who are in pain, and I let them put that pain on me. I think that's part of what it is to be Christian.
That doesn't justify the one who imposes his pain on others. If there are those who are willing to accept your pain to help you overcome it, that's good. Most of the people here did not volunteer for that position. I've accepted a lot of your pain over time, because you needed someone and I was available; but that did not give you the right to inflict that pain on everyone on this board. It's bad enough that you continue to send it my direction, but at least I'm something of a volunteer in that regard.
A study of Howard Stern's audience discovered that the people who liked him listened for an average of two hours a day, and gave as their reason that they wanted to hear what he was going to say next; and the people who hated him listened to him for an average of four hours a day, and gave as their reason that they wanted to hear what he was going to say next. I mention him here, because at least one person on this board has confided privately to me that he reads all of your threads because he finds you so completely unbelievable that he wants to know what you're going to say next. I think he is in the minority, though--most of us hope you're finish whatever you're saying and participate more civilly in our discussions.
--M. J. Young
To some degree, I accept the pain. I have people in my life who are in pain, and I let them put that pain on me. I think that's part of what it is to be Christian.
And in that sense, you care more about me than my own family. Thank you.
This was something I think I've before posted, and MJ doesn't need to waste time reading.
?
Exactly what it says. I had something posted that I believe I had posted before. I deleted it because it was something you had already read that you didn't need to waste time reading. Clear as mud?
Never mind--I got it.
--M. J. Young