I'll continue to make comments, but please don't phrase them as I'm arguing.
Again, I couldn't think of a softer word to use than that. What would you prefer it to be called? It was a revelation of sorts, to be honest with you. I'm developing a larger respect for MJ every day.
I'll take you over when you verse out of the world you're in in MJ's game, Mike. Your temporary reprieve could be as short-lived as your stay there may be. =p Feel free to argue with me until the cows come home.
(edit: Of course, now you know that the title of your next thread will be "The Cows Just Came Home")
I'd have phrased it as critical commentary if I felt compelled to put a label to them.
I hope I don't verse out of my current world any time soon, not out of lack of wanting to be in a world of Kyler's running, but from the fact that I really am enjoying that world and have so much left I want to do.
That being said, I wouldn't argue with you in a game you run me in Kyler. It's just not what I do.
Just as long as we're clear now. Make all the comments you want. Like I say, it was kind of a revelation. If you hadn't "argued" with me, I wouldn't have seen it, ya know? It was a good thing. So, we cool?
Of course we're cool, it's very hard to be on my bad side. I just wanted to correct something that I thought portrayed me in an incorrect light.
Gotcha.
Hi Mark, I wonder whether you deleted most of the tags I put on the Cultures and Costumes inspiration thread/topic. I'd like to know to see whether I should put them back or not.
Is that you in the picture Nikolaj? You don't look anything like I expected.
That's me with funny glasses. I don't wear glasses normally. This is more how I look. (I'm the dude in this this picture. ;-))
I would crop that one and use that instead, the one you have now gives me the willies :P
I've just changed it to my piratey self. I do like to keep things quirky :P (that is, if the change comes through already)
I'm pretty sure it was TJ who said that, but I also think it wasn't this case, although Jefferson was President at the time. But maybe it was Jackson, and if so then it wasn't this case.I'm thinking its also the one where AJ said something to the effect of 'the justice has made his ruling, now let's see him enforce it.'
Whether it's humans vs machines or angelic warriors vs machines. I mean seriously, what's the difference, in terms of you running both sides?
Sorry. It's a lot tougher to detail an army of supernatural angelic soldiers than it is to detail an army of humans. It's also tougher to run them, because everything they do is magic. It's already tough running the terminators, because they frequently have special abilities. Having one side human (even with futuristic weapons) is a lot easier.
Besides, if I've got an army of humans, it makes sense for you to call the shots. If you summon an army of angels, everyone is going to expect that the angels call the shots, since they know what they can do and you don't.
I understand you wanting to run something similar to the movies, but isn't the point to have fun?
Well, different kinds of fun. I suppose it was a very simulationist notion of mine, that you would enjoy living the Terminator movie from the inside.
I really think a higher mag bias...offers me the means to escape the infinity loop.
The sad thing is I think it probably increases the risk.
I understand, but at the same time, I will never understand, the point of flatlined magic or psionics.
There can be many points to it. One of them is that it forces the player to think more creatively about how to deal with situations confronting him. One of them is it makes a world much more like that which it is copying or imitating. Sure, Captain Kirk could be a Grand Wizard, and the Enterprise could be a magically-controlled spacefaring life form, but at that point not many people would think, "Wow, it's just like being in Star Trek."
And that's another ref trick that some may choose to use. Have a method of versing the player out at any moment built into the world.
Yeah, I'll admit I don't do that. I figure that the player is the one who in essence makes that decision--by whether he does something inherently risky and/or puts himself in harm's way.
Now, I might have places that look completely safe that are definitely harm's way, but I won't normally put you there unless you go there.
--M. J. Young
Sorry. It's a lot tougher to detail an army of supernatural angelic soldiers than it is to detail an army of humans. It's also tougher to run them, because everything they do is magic. It's already tough running the terminators, because they frequently have special abilities. Having one side human (even with futuristic weapons) is a lot easier.
Besides, if I've got an army of humans, it makes sense for you to call the shots. If you summon an army of angels, everyone is going to expect that the angels call the shots, since they know what they can do and you don't.
MJ, I want you to know that I was never intending to do anything completely strange like that. I never even thought of it. The only angel in the story, really, would have been Terry. The messiah of the human race doesn't get a guardian angel?
Well, different kinds of fun. I suppose it was a very simulationist notion of mine, that you would enjoy living the Terminator movie from the inside.
I would. I wasn't planning to take it completely unreasonably towards magic. I read someone on here (perhaps it was you) say that Tech and Bod skills are more reliable and less likely to botch really badly, and that Psi and Mag were more for backup. That was the way I wanted to play it. Besides, as I said in another thread, The American Indians had magic, they could teach us all kinds of things which would be useful, and I was going to take the story that direction. I don't think that would be at all unreasonable for the setting. I don't think you understand. Magic was hardly going to be the focus of the story. It's just, in the infant state, I'm so limited that there's not much else I can do. The amount of magic I've done is just a temporary thing until I come of age. I assure you, It was going to be very Terminator-like.
I really think a higher mag bias...offers me the means to escape the infinity loop.
The sad thing is I think it probably increases the risk.
I thought of that too. Getting me out of it is the important part though.
Two
If you really want to know, out of character, I think I'm lucky to have a high magic bias in this world. You're right, it doesn't deserve it. Or at least I could see why someone would say that. It wasn't something I was planning to abuse. I think I am lucky to have it. There wasn't going to be an army of angelic warriors. Terry is my personal bodyguard. Outside of that, I didn't foresee any angelic help. John Connor grew up in Mexico. Plenty of Indians in Mexico. So, in this story, John Connor learns his combat skills from Apache warriors as well as or instead of Mexican paramilitary. John Connor learns Indian magic. I wouldn't expect to learn to throw fireballs. Not from the Indians. What kind of magic would he learn from the Indians? How to contact spirits for advice, healing, I don't know what all. Nothing overly flashy, I wouldn't expect. The magic was going to be used as kind of "When all else fails" kind of thing. You're right, the chance to botch makes it more dangerous. It would have been much closer to the original story than you're probably envisioning. Just because I'm capable of doing something doesn't mean I will. Once I'm old enough to shoot a gun, magic goes on hold. I think a high bias works in a world like this if the player doesn't abuse it. I wasn't planning to. To abuse it would be using OOC knowledge. My character has no idea that the world is capable of supporting fire-throwing. He wouldn't think to try to learn it, and he has no idea of how to go about learning it.
I could probably pray and prevent Judgment Day altogether. That would be using OOC knowledge and abusing the bias. See what I mean? Right now, magic is all I can do. That won't be forever.
(Doing Therapy)
You were already in the process of summoning a terminator bodyguard. That's part of what MJ's talking about and why the regret.
I'm an infant with a single mother. Who needs to be protected more than an infant and single mother? And that was before I knew MJ's feelings towards it.
"Who needs to be protected more than an infant and single mother?"
A single infant without a mother? Just my thoughts though.
Touche'
MJ, I did kind of want some thoughts on what I said about the Indian magic. That was how I was intending to play it.
And ya know what else? I just realized. If I did have a Terminator bodyguard, the enemy you put us up against doesn't have to be overpowering or something that Sarah and I couldn't handle. It just has to be someone who could reasonably disable a Terminator, correct? A scientist from CyberDyne could do that. They studied the parts that they had and realized that it would be susceptible to a high level EMP. If CyberDyne is studying a chip, how much more would they want to study the entire robot endoskeleton? The scientist shows up with an EMP weapon. Harmless to humans, but it will cripple the Terminator. That enemy could take down the Terminator but Sarah with 1@3 gun skill would be more than a match for him. Be creative. Taking down the protector might take brains instead of brawn.
(Doing Therapy)
Generally, rather than having a way to verse someone out built into the world, I prefer to have one built into the system; for instance, powerful versers as enemies, cosmological events (stopping a cataclysmic sized asteroid from hitting earth is much harder than protecting the planet from a sun that has just gone through a supernova for some reason).
As for native american magic, well, not only would he have to make a GE roll, but after that he'd have to detail their magic. Not all native americans know magic; whether they know it is a different thing altogether from whether they'd teach it to you.
But supposing they did know it and did teach it to you.
1. You can't really know before the GE roll how powerful their magic is.
2. Now that you've bolstered your mag bias, it's not unlikely that you've picked up a thing or two regarding the ritualism involved in magic, and who's to say you won't go ahead and make your own skills?
Besides, Native American magic is probably holy, involving worshiping spirits, group dancing or using peyote.
Worshiping spirits will not fall well with the God your character worships.
Now that you've bolstered your mag bias, it's not unlikely that you've picked up a thing or two regarding the ritualism involved in magic, and who's to say you won't go ahead and make your own skills?
On my own, I got a 13@ mag bias from praying.
Yes, but that doesn't mean that you've got a plethora of magic skills making use of somatic, material, and vocal components.
I'm confused. You say he'd have to roll a GE roll. What happened to referee fiat? When can the referee not just say "The Indians have magic." I thought the referee could do pretty much anything they wanted. Why would he *have* to roll a GE roll instead of just using referee fiat?
He could just say straight out, "Native Americans don't have magic."
You really want them to have magic, though, so it would be more fair to use the GE roll.
Yeah, but couldn't he just say "The Native Americans DO have magic"? That's what I'm asking.
I'm not asking if it would be fair, I'm asking if it would be within his prerogative as referee.
Referee fiat is used to make the world what the referee wants, not what the player wants. GE rolls are used to decide, in the absence of a clear indicator of what the referee wants, whether the world is as the player wants or not.
That's generally how I look at it.
Yeah, but don't you ever have times when the player says "I want such and such a thing to happen" and you as referee say "Oh I really like that idea. Let's do that." and not roll dice for it? Does that EVER happen?
Sorry, when did we establish MJ really wanted you to have more magic in terminator? I missed that part. I was pretty sure he was captaining the idea of regretting there being magic.
Mostly players don't say that.
You see a guy on the street painting a picture of a church in a pointilist type fashion (lots of dots). You tell him, 'hey, I'll buy your paiting, but first can you add some street cars, and a lampost, and oh, instead of making it a picture during the day, make it at night, and by the way, do it in teh Classical Old Masters style?'
Most GM's can't do that.
And of those few who can, most would not want to bother. Why should they? Its a lot of work, its mentally stressful, and if you really want an Old Masters style painting, there's a guy on the next street over who does that.
bump
Sorry, when did we establish MJ really wanted you to have more magic in terminator? I missed that part. I was pretty sure he was captaining the idea of regretting there being magic.
YOU'RE NOT UNDERSTANDING ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Who said anything about Magic in Terminator? Who said anything of the sort? I'm not asking about Terminator, I'M ASKING IF A REFEREE IS CAPABLE OF MAKING HIS OWN DECISIONS WITHOUT THE DICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why is this suddenly over everyone's head???????
It depends on the decision.
Generally, if it's to do with something plot or setting related, aka a "predetermined" answer, I know the answer and generally don't technically have to decide since I already had. Otherwise, to a certain extent, the dice hold the key for me.
In some ways, the true answer is that no one can really tell you how to run your game, John, because it's yours. Sure, you're using the Multiverser system, but when you run it, in some way you take it and make it your own.
OK, I calmed down a little. I'm not asking if the referee WOULD, I'm asking if the referee is CAPABLE of it. MJ doesn't want a large amount of magic in the world. I understand that. I'm offering him a way to have that, which would keep his player happy, keep him happy, magic doesn't overpower the story, and I'm asking if he NEEDS to roll dice for it. Does he NEED to roll dice for it, or can he just say "That will keep the magic down, that will keep the player happy, that works, let's do that." Not if he WOULD, if he is CAPABLE of it.
Two
And the answer to that seems to be "Yes" if I'm reading Kyler correctly. I was trying to offer MJ a way to meet the parameters of the world without having magic overpower the story. I'm asking if he can just do it that way. The player came up with a way for magic to not overpower the story, everyone would be happy, I don't need to roll dice, I'll just go along with what the player said. I don't understand why MJ or any referee wouldn't want to that. If he rolls dice, magic might overpower the story which is not what he wants. I'm offering him a way to meet the parameters, keep everyone happy, and a dice roll could ruin that.
Well, the reason would be that you're the player; the referee naturally has information that you as the player are not privy to, and could have reasoning as to why the native american people don't have magic.
The bias has already been determined; it's 7@13 or some such, a curve of 20. How he goes on to handle it will be however he chooses to.
Naturally, a high bias means there are indigs who use magic somewhere, and I intend to have them somewhere. No worries, I've got the scenario well under control.
I totally understand why he didn't want a high magic bias. I thought that Indians with magic could meet those parameters, it wouldn't be overpowering, and wouldn't be that far outside the original story setting. What? John and Sarah Connor never once met with Native Americans in all their time in Mexico? I was trying to offer a way to work magic into the original story without straying too far from it. I was trying to be helpful and cooperative. Why does MJ need to roll dice to determine something that sounds like it would satisfy everyone?
There don't have to be indigs in the story, only in the world. They could be so significantly removed from your geography that you'll never come across them. The magic being present with the Indians would be a very fortunate turn of events. MJ could just as easily say it was monks in an obscure set of mountain ranges in Europe which stumbled across magic and set the bias as such, and you'll never meet them despite the world having them.
When can the referee not just say "The Indians have magic." I thought the referee could do pretty much anything they wanted. Why would he *have* to roll a GE roll instead of just using referee fiat?
Kyler is right; let me clarify.
When I'm designing a world, I can decide anything I want about that world. When I'm making decisions in running a world that "don't matter", I can do whatever I want with them. I can, for example, decide that on your way downtown you pass a prostitute, a pickpocket, a street cop, a newspaper vendor, a hot dog stand, and a beggar. As long as they're all set dressing, that's not a problem.
But if I'm running Kyler in Northgate City where there is an abundance of supers, it might matter whether he encounters Twilight or Toller along the way. Now, that can happen if I've determined in advance as part of the scenario that there is going to be an encounter with Twilight or Toller, or it can happen if a GE roll suggests something is going to happen which is particularly good or bad from Kyler's perspective. Thus when Kyler is clearing out The Tower in Why Spy, those encounters are all part of the scenario; but when he's walking home from school in Northgate, a general effects roll is required to allow me to do something unusual.
The obvious reason for this is that the referee has tremendous power--what we call credibility, but it comes to the fact that whatever I want to have happen could happen. Kyler could step out of his front door and find a giant robot ant destroying the street. So, in fact, could Sarah Conner, as long as I can logically fit it in as a transportable terminator.
Years ago there was a guy who ran a D&D game in the local donut shop. I saw him run it once, but friends of mine had surreptitiously observed it many times. I am given to understand that when the referee had had a bad day at work, the characters were all decimated by unrealistically powerful adversaries, impossibly hidden traps, horrifyingly improbable disasters--and then the next week he would make it up to them with powerful magic items, huge hoards of treasure, and pushover enemies that would give them huge volumes of experience.
Because he could.
And thus the way Multiverser is properly run, the referee can set up anything he wants before it matters, and he can set up anything that doesn't matter, but once the player wants the world to be one way or another, and that desire is communicated to the referee, unless it has already been determined that that is not so (e.g., the bias is written in the scenario, there is a trap on the map, a dragon is part of the story) the referee must treat the player's desires fairly by using a general effects roll.
That way I can't say, "I'm really angry and annoyed at John, so I'm going to throw a lot of trouble his direction and make his character's life miserable," and I also can't say "I'm in a really good mood and so I'm going to give John everything he wants tonight to make up for what I did last time."
Sure, my moods do impact my running of the game, all the time. The General Effects Roll keeps that in check.
I'm offering him a way to have that, which would keep his player happy, keep him happy, magic doesn't overpower the story, and I'm asking if he NEEDS to roll dice for it. Does he NEED to roll dice for it, or can he just say "That will keep the magic down, that will keep the player happy, that works, let's do that." Not if he WOULD, if he is CAPABLE of it.
I'm inclined to say no.
That's not an absolute "no"; I can envision circumstances in which I would be facing a problem with a scenario and a player would offer a solution that made sense. That, though, would be an extremely rare situation--and I think one of the key things I would consider in that regard is, is the player making a suggestion that benefits his character, or not? If it benefits his character, and he suggested it, I would almost always say, "Well, so much for that idea; we know that's not going to happen."
(Moral: never make helpful suggestions which clearly benefit your character, because it's more likely that you'll exclude a possibility the referee might have considered than that you'll get what you suggested.)
I had not, as far as I'm aware, made any statement to the effect that I did not know who had the magic. As Mike observes:
There don't have to be indigs in the story, only in the world. They could be so significantly removed from your geography that you'll never come across them. The magic being present with the Indians would be a very fortunate turn of events. MJ could just as easily say it was monks in an obscure set of mountain ranges in Europe which stumbled across magic and set the bias as such, and you'll never meet them despite the world having them.
It might have been the Monks of Tibet, or the Cardinals in the Vatican, or indeed the natives living on Sirius III. (In case you don't get it, that's another planet.) It might be that the last living magic user died five hundred years ago, and the bias has been dropping slowly since then (which explains the unusually high intensity--intensities above ten often hint at falling bias levels).
It might be that the Native Americans had magic; but as Nikolaj notes, that would almost certainly have been holy magic connected to Native American deities, which (glancing over my AD&D Deities & Demigods resource) tend to be neutral and anarch, not generally alliance, so they would be enemies or an alliance believer. Or it might be that the only magic they have is that they get high on peyote and think they've done something magical, deceiving themselves into confusing their drug-induced hallucinations with divine visions requiring interpretation. There's a slim chance that I might have decided that the Native Americans had magic from which you could learn or benefit--but it's much more likely that that's a dead end, even if they have magic.
Remember, the magic of many of those peoples involved putting young girls to death very painfully, and ask yourself whether that's really the kind of magic you want to pursue.
And now a silly question: what's this discussion doing on the random chat thread?
--M. J. Young