I will concentrate for four apparent minutes then try to make the rift reverse the space/time around it by making it absorb causality.
Four minutes later, you are no closer to discovering a way to cause the rift to absorb causality than when you began. You're attempting to wrap your mind around two universes' worth of cause and effect, and it's a daunting task; you're not sure if you're even capable of it at present.
____
Maxx answered my post here in the affirmative, so after a bit of research I'm ready to roll. The dice come up 08, which is failure.
Do I have to add anything to my character sheet as well such as "alien world tree sap" or something?
Sure, why not? I'll put it down in the list of materials (included in the listing for the skill) as "W1b blacktree sap," where W1b stands for World One, Subworld B (that is, the location on the 'other side' of the rift, with point of verse-in located in Subworld A).
Fifteen apparent minutes have elapsed. Morach might know that number, approximately, but he certainly does not know the apparent time remaining to him.
You're attempting to wrap your mind around two universes' worth of cause and effect, and it's a daunting task; you're not sure if you're even capable of it at present.
I am sure that I do not have that kind of energy. However, by altering the properties of the rift which connects two worlds (which makes the rift my only target), this could be done by making the rift do all the work. The causality absorbed will be recycled to absorb more causality. This is like how my Time Stop works which actually targets self for hyper-acceleration. The ripple of causality absorption also does not have to include all part of the universe to work, it just targets the area surrounding rift. This ripple of causality absorption will reverse the verses gradually according to the speed that it propagates which must be faster than any material of related universe. A rift have the ability to connect two space together which would make travel faster than light possible. This rift property is used to make the ripple of causality absorption possible.
*****
The dice come up 08, which is failure.
Did you calculate Morach targeting all part of related universes or do you calculate Morach as targeting only the rift for that roll?
If Morach is only targeting the rift, would that roll succeed?
If for example Morach targets two universes, would the skill be penalized at -210 for that attempt?
In which case, it's the prospect of making such a complex process happen automatically which daunts you. You're stumped as to how you might make such a chain reaction begin, much less how to ensure that it will continue and remain stable.
_____
If you were targeting the rift, that would actually add another layer of complexity, because you would in essence be attempting to create a device which would, itself, target two universes. I assumed you were using the rift as a focus for your own powers, which is far simpler than attempting to transform an interdimensional portal into a freestanding phenomenon which, left to itself, will undo everything everywhere.
The effects you want (which require at least ten* separate bias listings, for -45) are all targeted or area effects, and none of them are universe-spanning at baseline. There is no question of whether you could have succeeded; the was only the question of whether or not it was possible for you to avoid a botch. It turns out there was, and you were lucky enough to roll low enough to merely fail. I did the math one way, and the chance to botch came to 43%; done another way, the chance was closer to 70%. I was leaning toward the latter, but the low die roll spared from having to decide.
If you like, I can do the math on a skill which creates ten devices at once (each of which targets two universes when activated), but I'm not sure the numbers will come out any more favorable. I was under the impression that I was being merciful by doing any math at all.
I applaud your ingenuity, and I assure you this idea is possible. However, game balance dictates that it simply cannot be that easy.
(* Here they are:
P8@2 Block Memories (with a -50 sit-mod for actual erasure)
P11@10 Perceive Pasts
P14@2 Curatives
P14@2 Energy controls
P14@4 Age Variation
P14@5 Cause Movement
P14@6 Reshape Objects
P14@7 Transmute Matter
P14@8 Alter Weather
P14@10 Reanimation)
You're stumped as to how you might make such a chain reaction begin
Probably a movement that exceed the speed of light such as trying to spin the rift around (beings that would be protected from causality absorption) at such speed.
much less how to ensure that it will continue and remain stable.
That is the main problem which means that there is a high probability that the rift will destabilize and closes. The ripple of causality absorption will also destabilizes at certain point which would mean that the point further than that would not be reversed. Thus the ripple of causality absorption will depend on the stability of the rift itself. So, as long as the rift is stable, the ripple of causality absorption will expand.
Would the skill botch instead?
*****
attempting to transform an interdimensional portal into a freestanding phenomenon which, left to itself, will undo everything everywhere.
Except the beings at the rift position. It will also have the limit that it can only undo things up to the point of the rift creation.
The effects you want (which require at least ten* separate bias listings, for -45) are all targeted or area effects, and none of them are universe-spanning at baseline.
I think it will probably use every bias listing possible. If that is the case, the skill should be a botch instead right?
Is there a reason why you do not use Alter Reality bias for the skill?
Is Alter Reality biased out or something?
If you like, I can do the math on a skill which creates ten devices at once (each of which targets two universes when activated), but I'm not sure the numbers will come out any more favorable. I was under the impression that I was being merciful by doing any math at all.
I think if you calculate it, you will probably find that the skill will botch because the skill may create more than 10 effects at once if you do not group it as altering reality. I would be grateful if you would do the calculation for future references.
I applaud your ingenuity, and I assure you this idea is possible.
I think I have seen similar ideas before but anyways thank you for believing that it is possible.
However, game balance dictates that it simply cannot be that easy.
I think that would depend on the bias such as trying to hyper-accelerate in a world with possible Haste bias listing but impossible Time Stop bias listing would make a Haste skill that matches the Time Stop skill (that uses hyper-acceleration) be much harder but not impossible. If the botch percentage is 100% or over, would you rule the skill as impossible or do you still roll for the skill?
I think it will probably use every bias listing possible. If that is the case, the skill should be a botch instead right?
Is there a reason why you do not use Alter Reality bias for the skill?
Is Alter Reality biased out or something?
There is no single listing for Alter Reality; the entire fourteenth bias level is dedicated to Alter Reality skills (marked with an A in the rule book) and Temporal Manipulatives (marked with a T). Psionics differs from magic in how it deals with reality alteration. With magic, there is a listing for Do Anything; it's M15@10. Magic makes provisions for supernatural entities stepping in and simply changing the nature of the world to suit their whim, like the wish-granting genies from Arabian Nights. By contrast, psionics conceives of 14@ alter realities as skills which cause the state of the world to conform to the imagination of the skilled user. You take what is, and by force of will you cause it to become what you wish it to be. Thus, there is no P14@10 Do Anything; you pick out what you're attempting to do from the (very broad) Alter Reality listings and create a skill for doing that type of thing.
To do this psionically, there needs to be an intelligence guiding every change. Some sentience or quasi-sentience must first know, intimately, the nature of the past leading up to the present moment; and second, it must then cure every creature wounded, resurrect every creature killed, relocate every object moved, reallocate all transferred energy, reverse all decay and degradation, etc. - and finally it must erase the memories from all minds of all the events and actions it has undone. This cannot be done automatically or by fiat: because it is psionic, there must be awareness and conscious (or subconscious) control.
I said "or quasi-sentience" because it is possible that you could design a device that would perform some of this work for you. The only psionic devices covered in the rulebook are physical objects crafted from psychoactive materials, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the rift could not be transformed into such a device (possibly through the use of P15@ creation variants coupled with P9@ device crafting skills). That's just deferring the problem, though, because ultimately the device would have to be able to perform the tasks described above - reversing events "by hand," so to speak.
To be clear, what you are attempting is vastly different from time travel. This is a monumental undertaking. Time travel involves temporally displacing one entity (or a small collection of things or entities), with the result that in the subjective perceptions of the travelers the world appears to have reverted to a prior state of being. You are attempting to actually cause the world to revert to a prior state of being. There is not a bias listing in existence which will make that a simple task, achievable by a lone psionicist in under five minutes.
There are distinct advantages to your approach, of course - no risk of temporal anomalies being chief among those advantages - but ease of execution is not among them. By the way, if you ever got this to work, you would still have to contend with the psionic defenses and ordinary willpower checks for all affected sentient creatures. (The whole skill would not be prevented by a successful resister; the world would change around the resisting creature. I would probably also allow that a creature could be affected by some some aspects of the skill but resist others.
If the botch percentage is 100% or over, would you rule the skill as impossible or do you still roll for the skill?
At the table, I would ask you to roll, but no matter what the dice came up it would be a botch. On the forum, I would skip the roll and go straight to the botch table
Heh, with an unlimited amount of time I would be tempted to put together a botch list one hundred options long, arranged in ascending order of horridness, and allow the skill roll to determine which botch the player inflicted on himself. Unfortunately, my time is rarely unlimited.
If the skill were actually impossible - that is, no amount of help could possibly allow you to succeed, whether or not you were capable of succeeding this time (as for example when a skill is curved out) - then there would be no roll and there would be no botch. You can't screw up something you can't attempt.
I think if you calculate it, you will probably find that the skill will botch because the skill may create more than 10 effects at once if you do not group it as altering reality. I would be grateful if you would do the calculation for future references.
Apologies, but I'll address this in the next post; I'm turning my attention elsewhere for the moment. I'm posting what I have so far because my internet connection is not guaranteed to remain adequate.
That's misstated. A rift has the ability to connect two points in space together such that faster than light travel appears possible, but it does not involve any object traveling faster than light.A rift have the ability to connect two space together which would make travel faster than light possible.
Let's suppose we have a rift that connects a point on the surface of the Earth to a point on the surface of Mars. Someone stepping into the portal on Earth emerges on Mars. That's probably several light minutes distance (depending on their relative positions in their orbits at the moment), and so you perceive that the traveler moved from Earth to Mars instantly, and you conclude that he traveled faster than light because to move that distance in that time one would have to travel faster than light.
That, though, is not how the rift works. The rift does not move you instantly from one side of the rift to the other. Rather, it connects two points in space. At the location of the rift, there is zero distance between the Earth side of the portal and the Mars side of the portal. Thus someone stepping through the rift does not move at light speed from one end to the other, but simply travels the distance of that single step, which is as far apart as those two points are through the rift.
So it isn't about speed; it's about a spatial distortion that causes to locations to be adjacent to each other at one point in a way that is inconsistent with the rest of space.
And Scott is correct to treat an alter reality as affecting only one aspect of reality. Thus he could treat this as individual skills or as individual applications of the alter reality, but he still has to define what those individual aspects are and it probably doesn't help your math any to make them all that skill.
--M. J. Young
P14@2 Curatives
P14@10 Reanimation
The above effects are the top priorities for the skill.
There is no single listing for Alter Reality; the entire fourteenth bias level is dedicated to Alter Reality skills (marked with an A in the rule book) and Temporal Manipulatives (marked with a T).
Interesting. What is the Temporal Manipulatives that is associated with normal time travel?
Some sentience or quasi-sentience must first know, intimately, the nature of the past leading up to the present moment
The light from a second ago could view from a position is a light second away. The rift then would take this information to recreate the same effects. This would probably add remote sense to the prerequisite of the skill.
cure every creature wounded, resurrect every creature killed, relocate every object moved, reallocate all transferred energy, reverse all decay and degradation, etc. - and finally it must erase the memories from all minds of all the events and actions it has undone.
It might also have to create energy or light from the explosion if the space is reversed at the time of explosion, create force field if the space is reversed before the explosion, read minds to see what each creature thinks first to know what to block, suggestion to suggest what each creature should think during that time, telepathy for the telepathy connection between Morach's parents, mental protection for Oo-hii, and I could go on but for now that is the effect that I think would probably have to be added to the rift causality absorption. If this skill affects all parts of the universe, the skill would have to recreate the event of each parts of the universe and it may evolve itself accordingly. This would add additional alter psi ability to the rift to accommodate the change that might happen. It might also have to learn the ability to stop time (or hyper-accelerate) then try to pierce (or make a back door connection through) mental defenses or will power by trying countless times (with slightly different technique each time) to achieve that purpose.
The only psionic devices covered in the rulebook are physical objects crafted from psychoactive materials, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the rift could not be transformed into such a device (possibly through the use of P15@ creation variants coupled with P9@ device crafting skills).
How much time is needed to build an automatic activation device that does all that with reliable rate of success?
That also adds to the penalty of the skill right?
How much is the skill penalized for that?
To be clear, what you are attempting is vastly different from time travel.
That is why I did not say that Morach attempt time travel in the first place but only said that it look like time travel. I also am not sure if the skill would qualify as time travel which is why I said "probably".
Time travel involves temporally displacing one entity (or a small collection of things or entities), with the result that in the subjective perceptions of the travelers the world appears to have reverted to a prior state of being.
I have to try that some time if I understand the nature of time of that particular world and deem "travel" to any particular point of time in that particular world to be possible. I may have to experiment on that soon such as creating light x minutes ago for example (which probably what cause the explosion). I also wonder what would happen if I have a telepathy connection to myself in the past (which probably what cause the delusion). Changing the past would probably be a really bad idea but if I can anticipate my action in the future then I probably can communicate with myself in the past without producing any anomalies provided that I anticipate it correctly.
Heh, with an unlimited amount of time I would be tempted to put together a botch list one hundred options long, arranged in ascending order of horridness
That is a good idea. You could use the below formula to choose from your botch table:
Botch chosen = Round up[(Roll)*(Number of botch)/100]
Apologies, but I'll address this in the next post; I'm turning my attention elsewhere for the moment.
Do not worry about it. Take your time.
*****
A rift has the ability to connect two points in space together such that faster than light travel appears possible, but it does not involve any object traveling faster than light.
Yes, that would probably be the correct term for it but I could be wrong.
At the location of the rift, there is zero distance between the Earth side of the portal and the Mars side of the portal.
Could you be absolutely sure that any rift does not accelerate the being to the other side of the rift faster than the speed of light when that being pass through the rift?
How would you came to that conclusion?
So it isn't about speed; it's about a spatial distortion that causes to locations to be adjacent to each other at one point in a way that is inconsistent with the rest of space.
What should I call the travel then?
Should I call it "Arrive faster than light on non-distorted space travel" or something?
Thus he could treat this as individual skills or as individual applications of the alter reality, but he still has to define what those individual aspects are and it probably doesn't help your math any to make them all that skill.
So the individual aspects of the skill would probably depend on the past and would work according to the past. If for example the skill only works by reversing space a nanosecond, then there would probably be less things to cover.
First I want to note that I cross-posted with Scott this morning, as improbable as it appears. I hope that did not create any confusion.
What is the Temporal Manipulatives that is associated with normal time travel?
This is an inappropriate question for a player to ask in a game thread. The character is forbidden under the rules to ask questions in terms of game mechanics, and the player is supposed to get most of his information about reality through the character; the player's knowledge of game mechanics is only a convenience for his understanding of the reality the character experiences directly (e.g., that a P4@10 Telekinetic Flight is a more difficult and less reliable skill than a P4@1 Telekinetic Pulse) and for communication about the character's actions and circumstances. This question, though, seems to be asking, "What can I do and what skill listings in the book cover what I can do?" The answer is that you really can do anything, some things are harder than others, and the degree to which skills are discriminated or generalized is not really part of character knowledge and thus only discoverable by players through character experimentation.
Suffice it that there are six skill listings specifically marked as time manipulatives and one skill in level 14 that is not marked because it could be considered both an alteration and a time manipulative, and that it doesn't really matter how it's marked since such markings are primarily to help the referee find listings in the book, and don't define or limit the nature of the skill otherwise.
How much time is needed to build an automatic activation device that does all that with reliable rate of success?
How would you know? That's the appropriate answer for a referee to give to that sort of question from a player in a game setting. As for the answer that you would get as one referee to another, I'd have to give it a lot of thought and consideration and do a bit of research and number crunching, and advise you that the time it takes is directly proportional to the chance it would succeed--that is, you might be able to create a psionic device in six seconds, but it's more likely to work if you take six days.
Could you be absolutely sure that any rift does not accelerate the being to the other side of the rift faster than the speed of light when that being pass through the rift?
How would you came to that conclusion?
My answer to the first question is no, I can imagine something that resembled a "rift" actually being a faster than light transport conduit within which the laws of relativity do not apply. My answer to the second question is a matter of fiat and default: if I state that there is a "rift", it follows the default definition of a "rift" unless I have already decided it is something that is not a rift but looks like it. As to your present in-game situation, I am 99% certain that your "rift" connects to another universe (not, e.g., to another planet in this universe), and thus that it is nonsense to speak of how fast you have to travel to reach that other universe. You have to walk out the back of the wardrobe, or fall into the painting, or get yanked off the railway platform, or jump into the appropriate pond; Narnia is only a few steps away while the portal is open. When the portal is closed, it would be a low estimate of distance to say that it was "infinite". You truly can't get there from here, no matter how fast nor how far you traveled.
So the question of whether a rift could be an acceleration tube is entirely theoretical: we know that this one is not.
What should I call the travel then?
Should I call it "Arrive faster than light on non-distorted space travel" or something?
We usually just call it "passing through the portal" or something like that. Or if you mean what you should call the version of faster than light travel you've imagined, I suppose you can give it any name that won't be confused with something else--non-relativity travel, FTL Tube Travel.
If for example the skill only works by reversing space a nanosecond, then there would probably be less things to cover.
Too many variables for me to address that, really. I would probably handle it by using relative success for how long the skill could be maintained and then have the baseline skill reverse causality at one second per second, and tie the area affected to the relative success rate. A reasonable suggestion would be that you can reverse causality in a field one thousand cubic feet in volume for RS minutes, and then if you double the volume you halve the duration (2000 cubic feet for RS/2 minutes, 4000 cubic feet for RS/4 minutes). The volume of two universes is probably prohibitive. I don't know that I would penalize for allowing you to define the volume of the affected space, though, so you could in theory develop the skill using a much smaller volume and as you improve increase the volume.
Also, while I'm thinking of it, I would certainly penalize for doubling the speed at which "time" plays backwards, but I would also penalize for halving it, since having run at other than normal speed would be the basis for the penalty.
--M. J. Young
This is an inappropriate question for a player to ask in a game thread.
Suffice it that there are six skill listings specifically marked as time manipulatives and one skill in level 14 that is not marked because it could be considered both an alteration and a time manipulative
I just ask out of curiosity but fortunately you already answered the question anyway.
How would you know? That's the appropriate answer for a referee to give to that sort of question from a player in a game setting.
The answer do not have to be told to me but the calculation would need to use those numbers.
"passing through the portal"
non-relativity travel, FTL Tube Travel.
Thank you for the terms.
I would probably handle it by using relative success for how long the skill could be maintained and then have the baseline skill reverse causality at one second per second, and tie the area affected to the relative success rate. A reasonable suggestion would be that you can reverse causality in a field one thousand cubic feet in volume for RS minutes, and then if you double the volume you halve the duration (2000 cubic feet for RS/2 minutes, 4000 cubic feet for RS/4 minutes).
Six miles diamater meaningfully impacted.
1 mile = 5280 feet
3 miles = 15840 feet
V=(4/3)*pi*r^3
Two universes so,
V=2*(4/3)*pi*15840^3
V=254358061056000*pi cubic feet = 799089415994874 cubic feet
1000*(2^x)=799089415994874
x=ln(799089415994874/1000)/ln 2
x=39.5 so take x=40
1099511627776000 cubic feet for RS/1099511627776 minutes
If RS=8, "time" plays backward at 60/137438953472 seconds = 15/8589934592 seconds
Light movement when space is reversed = 0.52 meter [approximate value]
Since the above would only play at a fraction of a time, Morach would probably not notice the effect even if the skill succeeds.
You attempt to cause the causality of the surroundings to be absorbed by the rift, but you appear instead to have transmuted the matter in your surroundings. Approximately one molecule out of every three has been transformed into a particular volatile substance, and another molecule out of every three has become another volatile substance which does not play well with the first one.
Everything in your immediate area has turned gray and glittery, but nothing appears to be exploding - yet.
____
You've convinced me. I'll draw up a botch table.
1. Travel back in time
2. Close rift
3. Brain burn
4. Neural breakdown
5. Explosion
6. Psionic shockwave
7. Travel forward in time
8. No apparent effect
And the roll is 5, another lovely and talented explosion. I rolled the GEs for damage and area, but I'll wait to reveal them until the explosion actually happens. Explosions are quick, but they're not over in milliseconds; he won't be able to observe the explosion until his time stop expires.
Everything in your immediate area has turned gray and glittery, but nothing appears to be exploding - yet.
That seems to be the prequel of an explosion. It looks like if my hyper-acceleration expire, an explosion might occur.
That gives me an idea. Why not I use this new explosion potential energy and the rift to send me back into the past. If I can convert one equivalent unit of the explosion potential energy to travel back 1 second in time, I wonder how how far back into the past I will travel. I will concentrate for two apparent minutes then try to displace my soul temporally to the past by using the potential energy of the explosion as a fuel and the rift as the transporter. That means that both the explosion and the rift are the components for the skill but you can rule otherwise.
*****
You've convinced me. I'll draw up a botch table.
Have you seen other 100% botch skill before?
I rolled the GEs for damage and area, but I'll wait to reveal them until the explosion actually happens.
An interesting botch situation. I also wonder what would happen if the new skill succeeded. One equivalent unit of explosion might depend on the skill roll (which will probably affect the conversion rate), and GEs for damage and area (which will probably be multiplied to calculate the potential energy).
Right now it's all chemical energy. Nothing has started exploding yet, and by the time it starts you won't be hyper-accelerated anymore. You would need to remain hyper-accelerated for probably at least an hour before you could manipulate this explosion as it happens.
Are you attempting to preemptively transmute the volatile matter into inert matter as part of your time-travel skill?
Right now it's all chemical energy.
I will use that as the energy source.
Are you attempting to preemptively transmute the volatile matter into inert matter as part of your time-travel skill?
I think not. I will use it as fuel in its current form. If I try to make it into inert matter then I will be spending energy instead of using it.
I see I have been unclear. For convenience and ease of reference, I've quoted the following from Wikipedia:
Chemical energy is the potential of a chemical substance to undergo a transformation through a chemical reaction or to transform other chemical substances. Breaking or making of chemical bonds involves energy, which may be either absorbed or evolved from a chemical system.
If you are "using" the chemical energy here in any meaningful way, the volatile substances must be chemically different when you're finished.
This presents you with a problem, namely that you are currently hyper accelerated and the matter around you is not. In order to access the potential energy of this impending explosion, you must either
1) Wait for the explosion to begin and harness the kinetic/thermal/whatever energy as it is released,
or
2) Alter the chemicals yourself such that (a) they end up in a state of lower potential energy, and (b) you have control of the energy which is no longer bound up as chemical energy.
Approach number 1 involves allowing the hyper-acceleration to expire, giving you exactly one shot at diminishing the explosion and traveling back in time. Approach number 2 involves attempting to cause matter to change while said matter is aging one second per apparent day.
Which of these more closely resembles your intent? Or, is there a third alternative I'm not considering?
Approach number 1 involves allowing the hyper-acceleration to expire, giving you exactly one shot at diminishing the explosion and traveling back in time.
Which is not what I intent.
Approach number 2 involves attempting to cause matter to change while said matter is aging one second per apparent day.
Which would not work as well because the matter would need to be accelerated which need me to spend more energy to alter them.
Or, is there a third alternative I'm not considering?
Temporal displacement will probably allow the explosion potential energy to "blast into the past". Instead of the blast of energy going to the future, the blast will go into the past because the future might not exist for the blast to happen in the first place. This blast energy will probably enable me to rewrite history by displacing time instead of space.
*****
I think the explosion potential energy would not be converted into inert matter at least. The potential energy might be used by exotic matter (or the rift) which could help to displace Morach's spirit into the past. This exotic matter could be called the causality chain which probably would have a maximum elasticity in which it will snap when all the potential energy have been used. When time still does not stabilize when the snap happens, the snap will probably cause a temporal loop. This is of course just a theory and probably does not reflect the nature of time of Morach's universe.
I am going to attempt to convey my confusion by paraphrasing this conversation as I perceive it. One change: I have substituted potential kinetic energy (a ball on top of a very tall hill) for chemical potential energy.
. . . . . . . . . . . .
Me: You have accidentally placed a very heavy ball on the top of a tall hill. Very soon it will start rolling down, possibly flattening something.
Maxx: I will attempt to use the ball's potential energy to travel back in time.
Me: The ball's potential energy comes from the fact that it is very high. Will the ball end up at the bottom of the hill once you do this?
Maxx: No, I will use its height as the energy source. If I moved the ball to the bottom of the hill, that would be spending more energy.
Me: Uh, but if the ball stays at the top of the hill, how are you "using" its potential kinetic energy at all?
Maxx: The ball's height will move into the past, because there might not be a future.
Me: ??
. . . . . . . . . . . .
This is the only way I could think of to express my confusion. Help?
Me: The ball's potential energy comes from the fact that it is very high. Will the ball end up at the bottom of the hill once you do this?
Yes, but not to that side of hill (the future), it will be rolling on the other side (the past). This would mean that the potential energy will of course turn into something else during the travel to the past but I am not sure what it will turn into but I think it will probably turn into causal chain elasticity potential energy.
Me: Uh, but if the ball stays at the top of the hill, how are you "using" its potential kinetic energy at all?
The ball does not stay at the top of the hill, it will roll down the hill to the other side (the past). That analogy might not completely clear the confusion because the situation depends on temporal displacement. You could also imagine that the future is the top of hill and the bottom is the past. You could probably substitute the rift as a very elastic ball which will bounce back to the future or the top of the hill.
This is the only way I could think of to express my confusion. Help?
If the above still does not help, try to imagine that the explosion happens normally but the other space is reversed instead. Imagine also that this explosion happens at temporal dimension and not in normal space. Imagine again that the rift is have been using this energy to displace Morach's spirit into the past. This energy would probably could not remain in temporal dimension thus converted to some other form such as elastic energy of causal chain. This however is just an illustration and might not represent the true events. If that still does not help then the mass of explosion itself could be converted into energy through the formula E=mc^2.
Let's try this. Assume you succeed, and further assume that you successfully avoid temporal anomalies. Once in the past, you go elsewhere, and do not interfere with events in this area.
Describe what you expect this area around the rift to look like two seconds after the point from which you traveled.
Describe what you expect this area around the rift to look like two seconds after the point from which you traveled.
There are some assumptions of what will happen.
The first assumption is the explosive mass will travel with me to the past which will then be an inert mass when I arrived in the past. This will mean that the area around the rift after the point of departure will be some sort of vacuum. The inert mass could arrive simultaneously (more energy needed) or gradually (less energy needed) as time moves to the future. I would think it would arrive simultaneously because temporal dimension would not keep any mass within it unless the temporal dimension would leak the inert mass as I rewrite history.
The second assumption is the explosive mass will use the temporal dimension to change into inert mass while I travel to the past but this inert mass would not be transported to the past thus will be bounce back to the future. This will mean that the area around the rift after the point of departure will be turned into inert mass. My intention for the skill is to displace only me into the past so I think this would be the correct assumption.
Scott, if I'm reading him aright, it sounds to me like he wants to use the chemical energy like rocket fuel to power his temporal journey to the past, but power it remotely such that the energy is all directed into the time travel trip but the waste product remains in its location in what will then be the future.
I think he would need to pull off some kind of P7@8 Redefine energy, or possibly a P7@9 Store Energy with redefine and redirect components incorporated. What I find more difficult is the notion of using the energy for time travel, since psionic time travel doesn't use much energy at all and he is not attempting technological time travel.
But that's just me thinking aloud as I try to wrap my head around what he's trying to do.
--M. J. Young
Scott, if I'm reading him aright, it sounds to me like he wants to use the chemical energy like rocket fuel to power his temporal journey to the past, but power it remotely such that the energy is all directed into the time travel trip but the waste product remains in its location in what will then be the future.
I had similar thoughts earlier, but I was thrown off by his statement that he had no intention of effecting a change in the matter. Now it appears he intends to draw the affected matter back into the past with him, and also that the matter be inert when he arrives. Actually, scratch that; I guess he's suggesting that that's one way it could work, but the way he would prefer it to work is that the matter to become inert but not to make the trip.
What I find more difficult is the notion of using the energy for time travel, since psionic time travel doesn't use much energy at all and he is not attempting technological time travel.
Perhaps it doesn't, but he imagines it does, and in connection with that I observe two things: first, that once you get into the tip-top bias levels in the psi area, the imagination becomes very important to both the effect and the execution; and second, that it quite possible for Maxx to be mistaken about how he is doing what he does (or even about what he is doing).
Thus, he begins with his surroundings transformed into a mixture of two volatile substances, ready to explode.
Next, he travels back in time, and his transmuted, volatile surroundings become inert (for no reason apparent to the casual observer), reaching such a state as it would have been in had it been allowed to explode (and left for several hours thereafter to cool).
Finally, he arrives in the past.
I believe that to be an adequate description of the results Maxx intends. There is no reason that is has to happen for the reasons that he imagines it to happen. He imagines he cannot travel back in time without an energy source, so he alters reality (preventing an explosion) and imagines that the change in potential energy has provided him with the power necessary to travel through time; armed with this confidence, he proceeds to travel through time.
I think I'll combine the P14@7 Transmute Matter with the P14@10 Time Travel into a single skill, but allow that the explosive target material acts as a mental focus for the time travel aspect, providing a +10 sit-mod which cancels out the -10 combination penalty. +10 for an extra minute's concentration, - some value for quantity of material and difficulty of the job; +2 because his character bias is P15@2, +15 for world bias, +20 for his BRA comes to less than or equal to 47%, the roll is 63, failed.
Just as well. I never asked how far back he expected to travel, and I'm not sure whether or not his body would have come with him. I'm thinking so?
Two minutes apparently wasn't enough time. It's tricky to mess with matter while you're temporally dilated relative to it, and it's also tricky to move through time while you're slowing it down for yourself. You thought you were ready to try this after two (apparent) minutes, but it seems you weren't ready after all. Nothing happened.
I never asked how far back he expected to travel
The limit of the time travel would be Morach's conception day or when Morach is still in zygote state. That is why the body does not have to come along. The maximum GE roll for damage and area would equal to this. The skill roll would then apply the percentage of the energy converted. The time of arrival could be calculated by using the formula:
Time arrive = Time depart - (Duration existed)*(RS/100)*(Damage*Area)/(Max Damage*Max Area)
Two minutes apparently wasn't enough time.
I will try to concentrate three apparent minutes and try again.
The limit of the time travel would be Morach's conception day or when Morach is still in zygote state. That is why the body does not have to come along.
Are you deliberately trying to leave your body behind, or is this just how you expect it to work?
The maximum GE roll for damage and area would equal to this. The skill roll would then apply the percentage of the energy converted. The time of arrival could be calculated by using the formula:
Time arrive = Time depart - (Duration existed)*(RS/100)*(Damage*Area)/(Max Damage*Max Area)
No can do. You have no idea of how powerful the explosion would be, and you're in control of how far you go back.
I get the impression that you're going back as far as you can, but that you imagine you can't go any farther back than your conception. If we say that a successful 100 will take you back to the moment of conception and that lesser rolls take you to later points as determined by relative success, would that work for you?
__
I've already rolled, but we need to clear these questions up first. MJ: Am I correct in thinking that a verser whose spirit would be permanently separated from his body instead verses out? I come to this conclusion because irrevocable separation would result in the death of the body, for which the spirit is defined as equipment.
Are you deliberately trying to leave your body behind, or is this just how you expect it to work?
I expect that is the way my skill works although it may work in similar ways.
Morach would probably know more about the skills than I am.
If we say that a successful 100 will take you back to the moment of conception and that lesser rolls take you to later points as determined by relative success, would that work for you?
That is fine with me.
It's "than I do." He is more knowledgeable than you are (or than "I am"), but he knows more than you do. "Do" is a dummy verb standing in for "know," and it's only real purpose in the sentence is to carry the tense. In fact, it can left out ("he knows more than I"), but I think that's going out of style.
But I agree, he does. I'm going to hold off on this until I get an answer back from MJ about whether or not doing this would kill you, and when it would kill you. Then I'll think about whether or not Morach would know whether or not it would kill him.
It's "than I do." In fact, it can left out ("he knows more than I"), but I think that's going out of style.
Thank you for the language lesson. After I re-read it, the sentence does sounds weird.
But I agree, he does. I'm going to hold off on this until I get an answer back from MJ about whether or not doing this would kill you, and when it would kill you.
I think the body that is left in the future would be fine as long as the time traveler spirit came back to it after the travel is over but I could be wrong.
Under replacement theory, it's not "left in the future;" it's non-existent. When you arrive at point C, your body does not exist.
A younger version of you exists (at point C); that younger version of you has a younger version of your body. It is not your body.
Thus, if you traveled back in time, you would be a disembodied spirit, which I think is something versers cannot be due to their scriff infection. The possibility that the younger version of you might travel back in time without his body, leaving behind a vacant body that you would then have the opportunity to possess, does not change the fact that your own body would have already ceased to exist.
Perhaps MJ would allow this, saying that it still is your body regardless of the fact that your spirit has been temporally duplicated. The possibility that he would allow it is the reason I'm not proceeding with the game just yet; he's the authority on both pertinent subjects (time travel and disembodied versers).
Perhaps MJ would allow this, saying that it still is your body regardless of the fact that your spirit has been temporally duplicated. The possibility that he would allow it is the reason I'm not proceeding with the game just yet; he's the authority on both pertinent subjects (time travel and disembodied versers).
Both of that subjects will be a bit complicated if it is mix with each other. I have a couple of assumptions which I hope will help.
If the body will automatically go with the spirit as equipment, then even if Morach try to leave it in the future the body will come along but not because of Morach specifically target it to come along but because the scriff follows the spirit.
If however, the time is undone because this is "real" time travel and not parallel world, then Morach body is still his even if the spirit is temporally duplicated.
Morach also does not have any knowledge of scriff infection so probably he would not target the body specifically. I also am not sure if Morach body is scriff infected due to it able to grow up. I think in that world, only Morach spirit is the verser and the body is the equipment but it would not be scriff infected until Morach verse out from that world. Well, that is only my theory of course.
From Scott:
MJ: Am I correct in thinking that a verser whose spirit would be permanently separated from his body instead verses out? I come to this conclusion because irrevocable separation would result in the death of the body, for which the spirit is defined as equipment.
It took me a bit more reading to grasp why you thought this, but I gather it's because the body at point B ceases ever to have existed and thus the spirit at point C ceases ever to have existed. But that doesn't happen until point D, and thus the spirit can exist up until the moment the body is destroyed, which happens to be the same moment that the spirit should depart from the future. If the CD version of Morach were unaffected by anything done by the AB version of Morach's spirit (which I consider improbable) he would do exactly what Maxx did, including becoming non-corporeal and causing the explosion by the botch which is about to happen, and then attempting as he is to defuse the energy and travel to the past. At that point, the spirit of CD Maxx replaces the spirit of AB Maxx, and since the two are indistinguishable the CD Maxx indistinguishably replaces the AB Maxx and the character has no disruption of consciousness. If, though, the AB Maxx spirit changes anything at all that in any way influences the CD Maxx or his environment (note that his defusing of the explosive matter is an act that will have to be confirmed by his CD counterpart, and not a change in the CD history but a confirmation of an event in the AB history by the CD Maxx) then at point D the AB Maxx ceases ever to have existed and the player will have to be instructed that he has no memories of the AB timeline but only remembers being the CD character. At the moment that player character Maxx does something that does impact CD Maxx (you can use GE rolls for incidental impact where there is reason to question whether or not such impact might occur) you'll have to take control of CD Maxx and determine what he would do based on the changes AB Maxx has introduced. You would also have to consider which of the skills Maxx (1) learned during this time were never learned by Maxx (2) because he never attempted them, and you would be justified in re-rolling skill attempts and skill learning attempts for any skill in which you believe that Maxx (2) would try to repeat the acts of Maxx (1) but the conditions have changed sufficiently that the success is not ensured by the rule that the CD timeline is the first time for everyone native to the CD timeline so it happens as it did except as influenced by the time traveler. That is, if what Maxx (1) did would not have prevented Maxx (2) from attempting the same thing at the same time, but might have slightly altered the conditions under which he is attempting it, you can roll for what happens this time, bearing in mind that if he doesn't get to the time travel point on schedule he probably creates an infinity loop, and then you're looking at a verser who needs to be rescued by someone from outside the universe. I mentioned this somewhere in another thread.
I would normally agree that the body without the spirit is dead, as scripture says; but in Multiverser it is possible for the spirit to be separated from the body with no certain return time. It happens, for example, when an invader traps the target's spirit in a jar and possesses the body, and it logically can happen if the spirit is jarred and the body left empty. The argument against your position is that there is no indication that the spirit has been "permanently" separated from the body--it may be only a matter of time.
On the other hand, if the explosion is not averted and the body is destroyed/killed in it, then the spirit and body verse together. That does not mean that they are reunited in the process (might be, but unlikely), but rather that a comatose body arrives in the new world, and the spirit also arrives at the same distance from the body as the body. You can make that a temporal distance as well, that the spirit arrives first, if you choose to do so. You can also allow that ownership of the body might become contested at that point, but that's always an obvious hazard of leaving your body.
I'll also note that whatever informational connection Maxx' spirit has with his body will be broken if it does not include a temporal element (which I'm assuming it does not, because when he established the skill he did not have reason to foresee the need for one).
From Maxx:
If the body will automatically go with the spirit as equipment, then even if Morach try to leave it in the future the body will come along but not because of Morach specifically target it to come along but because the scriff follows the spirit.
You've got it backwards, Maxx. The spirit is the property of the body, and if the body leaves the universe the spirit goes with it. Normally the spirit is inside the body, but you've managed to separate them. Thus the spirit can travel without the body, and there's no inherent reason why it can't travel through time (although as mentioned already the dangers of doing so are manifold). So just as your spirit can leave your body behind spatially, it can also do so temporally. Your body will travel with you only if you specify that you are taking it with you. (For comparison, if you were in your body you could decide to travel to the past but not take your battle axe with you, despite the fact that it is equipment; you could also send your battle axe to the past without going there yourself. The anomalies involved are very complicated, but they're not impossible to resolve.)
Clear as mud?
--M. J. Young
I guess I was just wondering how I could kill him if he had no body. That will be irritating.
So if the body and the spirit become separated in universes which have no spatial or temporal connection, then does he die?
Concerning the first question, I would say that the body can take full damage value from physical damage and then it dies and he verses out, and that the spirit can be attacked probably by psionic and magical attack forms and by physical attacks by other non-corporeal beings, and it too would take up to the maximum damage value and then die.
I would also think that if there was a problem with an energy control skill, the released energy could kill him despite the fact that it is currently physical energy--he is attempting to convert it into something else, and if he fails to control it the subsequent energy release could burn him without doing harm in the material realm.
I think, though, that he only dies if either the body or the spirit takes sufficient damage to kill him. I'd like to say that getting his body on one side of the rift and his spirit on the other and then closing the rift would kill him, but I'm not sure that's different from a magic jar; and I think that if either versed out the other would as well, and that would put them back in the same universe--but not necessarily reunited, which might require the use of some skill.
--M. J. Young
I'm thinking I should use his full Willpower as the spirit's DV and use his (Density+Stamina+Resistance)/4 for his body's. Thoughts?
Anyway, I think we've answered enough questions for me to proceed. Next post will continue the game; I might start another thread to discuss the magic jar question.
The spirit is the property of the body, and if the body leaves the universe the spirit goes with it.
If I have two bodies, then the spirit is the property of both bodies?
Does a part of my body (an arm for example) own a specific part of my spirit (if it have parts) or do my spirit own a specific part of my body (such as the brain)?
Or do they mutually own each other just like husband and wife?
I guess I was just wondering how I could kill him if he had no body. That will be irritating.
By killing the past self but this would probably create an infinity loop or something.
he's the authority on both pertinent subjects (time travel and disembodied versers).
Adding portal and zygote experience to the mix does make the problem seem to be more complicated but that what makes it interesting.
I'm thinking I should use his full Willpower as the spirit's DV and use his (Density+Stamina+Resistance)/4 for his body's. Thoughts?
I am wondering about that too. If the spirit can take full Willpower as DV, why does the body use (Density+Stamina+Resistance)/4 instead of (Density+Stamina+Resistance)/3?
This also raises the question whether the body have some sort of willpower of its own when left to its own devices.
I might start another thread to discuss the magic jar question.
That is also an interesting problem.
You don't and you never will.If I have two bodies....
- If you temporally duplicate yourself, there are two spirits and two bodies.
- If you clone yourself, the new body has a new spirit (just like a twin).
- If you matter replicate yourself, there is great debate concerning whether the new body is dead, or you replicate your spirit so there are two of you (including two spirits), or the new body is possessed by an opportunistic spirit masquerading as you. No one knows the answer to that; but the answer is not that you have two bodies--you have your original body, and there is a copy of your body that is not your body.
- If you create such a dead copy and transfer your spirit to it, then your spirit still belongs to your original body, and the extra body also is property of the original body until you vacate it and disown it; but the death of the copy body does not cause you to verse out, but simply to become disembodied once again, with whatever consequences the referee sees as appropriate to that.
- If there is some other way to get two bodies, I don't know what it is.
Scott, you division of damage value sounds quite reasonable to me. I would just use full damage value for both, and probably make it so that if either is damaged the damage applies to both (that is, Maxx can take X amount of damage, and if it hits his body it affects his spirit, and if it hits his spirit it affects his body, so I only have to count the total damage he has taken), but I can see arguments for half a dozen other approaches, and I think I'd use mine mostly because it's simple. Also, it avoids the complication that a character with an unusually high will power would have a higher damage value as a spirit than in his body, although I can see making the spirit's value Will Power/4 and forcing it back to the body if it takes full damage.
--M. J. Young
Whatever part of your body is alive owns your spirit. If your body dies, you verse out, and take your spirit with you.
If there is some other way to get two bodies, I don't know what it is.
How about creating a clone then putting both bodies in stasis then cut both of them in half. Reattach both of them to each other then you will get half original and half copy. This way there are two bodies and only one spirit. This could be done by replacing the organ bit by bit if cutting in half would make the body verse out even in stasis.
Whatever part of your body is alive owns your spirit. If your body dies, you verse out, and take your spirit with you.
What if the above is the case?
although I can see making the spirit's value Will Power/4 and forcing it back to the body if it takes full damage.
That is if the spirit could get back to the body. If the spirit could not get back to the body then probably the spirit would die. That however raises another question. Can a spirit actually die?
How about creating a clone then putting both bodies in stasis then cut both of them in half. Reattach both of them to each other then you will get half original and half copy. This way there are two bodies and only one spirit. This could be done by replacing the organ bit by bit if cutting in half would make the body verse out even in stasis.
At the moment of the successful cloning you've got a second spirit. A clone is just a younger identical twin, not the same person, and thus having its own spirit.
Doing the same thing with an initially inanimate (i.e., dead) body would mean someone would have to determine which is the verser's body and which is the verser's spare body parts equipment cache. Since the spare parts body is never alive, it is never the verser's body. The organ exchange is a clever idea, but there is already a mental process involved such that the organ which is "my kidney" that has been removed is less "mine" than the organ that is "my kidney" by virtue of transplant from a donor.
As to whether the spirit could get back to the body, my own feeling on that is that spirits are essentially non-material and supernatural, and thus they exist in the material realm, if at all, as standing on the boundary between the material realm and the border supernatural realms. Border supernatural realms border on all material realms, although traffic between them is controlled primarily by the mag bias. But I can see a referee ruling that if the spirit dies the body also dies, and you verse out to a new universe where you are restored whole. It's not the only solution, and a GE roll might be used to give you different solutions at different times.
--M. J. Young
The organ exchange is a clever idea, but there is already a mental process involved such that the organ which is "my kidney" that has been removed is less "mine" than the organ that is "my kidney" by virtue of transplant from a donor.
A clone, a portal and appropriate regeneration/healing skill could probably achieve the same feat as cutting the body in half and reattaching it together again.
What does "I" refer to?
Is it the spirit, the brain, other body parts, or the combination of it?
Who decides that the body is less "mine" in the first place?
If the spirit decides that then the body probably should be the equipment of the spirit.
If the brain decides that then if the brain is put in a jar while sustaining it while other body parts are killed then the verser would probably not verse from that world because the brain is the main body and the others is less "mine".
This topic would probably be better discussed with the magic jar question.
I have two comments.
- It sounds like you're trying to find a way to do what the rules specify you can't do: divorce your spirit from your body permanently. The spirit is the equipment of the body because scriff is in the body, and the body recognizes its own spirit. That's the sum of it.
- This discussion is derailing your game for esoterica that has no significance to play. You might be separated from your body and you might need to find a way to return to it, but ultimately none of the ideas you have raised about how to get two bodies are relevant to your present game situation and are merely delaying play.
--M. J. Young
Ultimately, what's delaying play is my increasingly intermittent internet connection combined with my increasingly consistent failure to take advantage of those windows of connectivity I am allowed. Unlike MJ, I have no obligation to answer out-of-character questions, and I had no intention of doing so for these. Also, I'm deferring my final decision as to how to treat damage value in spirit form until such a time as it matters. As they say in baseball, "play on."
Maxx: If you would, could you please identify for me
1) The calendar time at which you attempted this skill, and
2) Your total elapsed time in this universe so far (including time in gestation) in days,
and
3) Which post in this thread I would go to if I wanted to go back about a month.
If I haven't posted again by the time you see this, then it's a good bet that finding those three things will accelerate the process.