You're forgetting that you would be responsible for the invasion. It would be YOUR FAULT that America was being attacked. You saved a few hundred lives, at what cost? It was YOUR FAULT that America is now being invaded. What would you do?
It isn't my fault, though. I'm in an alternate reality and I can't prove they would have gone to war if the attack were a crippling success; they are very pacifistic people, not going to war after someone sneak attacks them ;)
We already answered to that exact and absurd hypothetical.
Kyler even brought up an excellent point that that's assuming he wasn't able to convince someone to listen to him that they had to get into the war, despite the fact the nation was itching for a reason to enter the war. Despite the fact that we're versers and can do a lot to turn a persons ear, especially after we just managed to save Pearl Harbor.
Kyler would go and kill the bad guys, and I'd infiltrate and sabotage.
Non-involvement is just a cowards way out in my view. By the logic you're giving if you could get involved and don't and something bad happens it's your fault. It's just a matter of doing one's best. I mean honestly, we're versers, we can do some craaaaaaaaaaazy stuff. If you can't figure out a way to get a nation on the verge of war to go to war after becoming a savior ..... well you're just not trying hard enough.
And you're completely avoiding and ignoring the issue. YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE US BEING INVADED!!!!!!!!!!!!! What would you do?
We already answered to that exact and absurd hypothetical.
So let's be absurd hypothetical. Pearl Harbor isn't decimated, we don't enter WW2, and you are responsible for the US being invaded. No one will answer this. You just keep telling me why it wouldn't happen. So it's an absurd and stupid idea. This is a random chat thread. Let's be absurd and stupid.
I already answered it. Kyler did as well.
If Pearl Harbor was attacked and defended successfully,and the US decided not to enter the war, and all of the current versers attempts to get the US into the war failed, and Germany invaded the US, and the US couldn't defend/didn't see the invasion coming:
Under that line I already answered I would try to infiltrate the german research departments. I know some german coupled with the fact I know atomic theory well enough to be valuable at that time and get a job. (A point I mentioned before, had I been there I would have helped the US science departments with research, in which case I think I can safely say they would outrace the german counterparts) From there I would sabotage the research efforts and get as much information to the US resistance.
Kyler would go on a more Rambo-esque mission and kill the people responsible for the war.
Neither of us would feel the invasion were our faults, as Kyler said, that version of the US was entirely too pacifistic if they let an attack, successful or not, go. This is an alternate reality, not time travel.
My last post didn't appear on the main page as last poster, I may be marked as spam or this may fix it. Who knows.
Better just to leave well enough alone and not have to worry about it at all.
Maybe. Then again, here I am on Pearl Harbor just before the attack.
Coincidence? Or God's will?
God already allowed it to happen. It would have happened whether you were there or not.
John wrote:
I asked What would you do if stopping the Pearl Harbor bombing DID cost us WW2? No one has answered that.
and about an hour and a half later he wrote
No one will answer this. You just keep telling me why it wouldn't happen.
Which I find highly annoying and offensive, and will have to ask that John wait at least twenty-four hours before repeating a question so I don't have to read the same question a dozen times when I get here.
This really is one of the issues explored in Multiverser. I don't think anyone is currently playing in Sherwood Forest, but the "trap" in that world is to get the verser to assassinate the famously wicked Prince John, rumored to be overtaxing the poor Saxon commoners to line his pockets while his revered brother King Richard (who in the future will be The Lionhearted) is imprisoned by a German king in lieu of a million pound ransom. Everyone knows that Prince John is a scoundrel, hated by nobleman and commoner alike. Killing him will allow someone else to step into power and take the necessary steps to return Richard to the throne.
It's a lose-lose proposition. John is really only continuing the policies started by his father and maintained by his brother, and simply lacks the charisma to persuade the nobles that this is good. He is saddled with his brother's outrageous war debt from the crusades and really does not have the million pounds for the ransom. Richard, meanwhile, has no desire to be king, and if he is ransomed he will leave someone else in charge and go off on another war (this one against France, to reclaim his ancestral territories on the east side of the channel). More significantly, when Richard does die in battle, Prince John becomes King John, the most hated King in English history--and the one who was forced to sign Magna Carta, the touchstone of western democracy and beginning of the modern concept of human rights. Without King John, we move forward to a modern feudalism, and I bring my player character back to a twentieth century in which His Majesty's Colony of California is being claimed by the King of Spain and defended by the King of England, and soldiers can and will arrest anyone suspected of being suspicious.
So yeah, what happens when you tweak history is nothing new, and I'm afraid preventing Pearl Harbor such that Germany ultimate attacks America seems small potatoes in the scheme of things.
On the other hand, your Loretta Lynn example (as bad as it is) points up a more fundamental issue. There is human suffering here and now, and I can do something to prevent it. What I do to prevent it will have repercussions in the future which might lead to other human suffering--but if I am still here (which I might be) I will take steps to prevent that as well.
Your fear, John, was always that if you prevented a bad event something worse might happen. Yet it is equally possible that something better might happen. The Arizona did not sink, the other battleship did not go aground, our Pacific Fleet was not severely damaged. We entered the war in a better position, and perhaps fought on two fronts, the naval battle in the Orient and the land and air battle in Europe, getting to the end more quickly, with less loss of life--and maybe without Truman having to make that critical decision whose consequences include that Japan does not permit nuclear power on its territory, a generation was raised in an environment of constant fear of disaster, and enemy powers can assure themselves that if they use nuclear weapons they will not have been the first to do so.
The world might become a better place if you prevent that destruction. It might become a worse place. But it's not like the only decision you have to make is whether to alert them to this attack. Once you have made that decision, you have to decide what you will do next, and what you will do after that, and ultimately perhaps you can be the one whose actions bring down Hitler without forming an alliance with Stalin, stop Hirohito without devastating Nagasaki, and make the United States a world power without leaving Europe in ruins.
God already allowed it to happen. It would have happened whether you were there or not.
No, it would have happened had I not been there. Did you never watch Quantum Leap? Did you never imagine the notion that God might send someone into the past to fix what did not go well the first time? Sure, if it's the same universe it would cause an infinity loop--but this is a different universe. Could it not be that God would have put you here so that you could use your knowledge of the disaster that transpired in your own universe to prevent such a disaster here? If you landed at Chernoble, or Three Mile Island, and you had the necessary knowledge, would you take steps to prevent a nuclear accident? If you landed on the Titanic, would you attempt to prevent the deaths of hundreds in the frigid northern Atlantic? If you versed into the top floor of the World Trade Center on 9/11, would you have taken steps to save people in those offices?
I would. I'll deal with the next problem once this is done.
--M. J. Young
oops, double post... :o
I don't think anyone is currently playing in Sherwood Forest
Did I fail to qualify by not "currently" playing, or by not being "anyone"? :p
Good thing that I'm old and senile, and easily forget spoilers and stuff... ;)
I asked What would you do if stopping the Pearl Harbor bombing DID cost us WW2? No one has answered that.
and about an hour and a half later he wrote
No one will answer this. You just keep telling me why it wouldn't happen.
Which I find highly annoying and offensive, and will have to ask that John wait at least twenty-four hours before repeating a question so I don't have to read the same question a dozen times when I get here.
People posted. They didn't answer the question I asked. (Or at least I didn't realize if they had) I find that annoying and offensive, when people ignore me. You can't win them all.
If you landed at Chernoble, or Three Mile Island, and you had the necessary knowledge, would you take steps to prevent a nuclear accident? If you landed on the Titanic, would you attempt to prevent the deaths of hundreds in the frigid northern Atlantic? If you versed into the top floor of the World Trade Center on 9/11, would you have taken steps to save people in those offices?
Chernobyl, actually. And no, I wouldn't. You remember Frequency correct? Frank (Dennis Quad, firefighter) doesn't die in a fire, due to his son's actions. That's great!!! Now he doesn't grow up without a father. Great. We just improved the world. Oh, but Frank's wife is now at work instead of at his funeral. She saves the life of a serial killer who ends up killing her and several other women. Gee, maybe it was better with Frank dying????? I'm inclined to believe the killer's other victims would think so. At least I know the results of these events. Who knows what happens if you change them?
I would. I'll deal with the next problem once this is done.
So you're going to hunt down two dozen rapists and murders who survived Titanic? You're going to imprison the stockbroker who bilks millions out of retires when he survives the WTC attack? Prypiat was a city in the Ukraine which was abandoned following the Chernobyl nuclear meltdown. Now it's home to hundreds of animals and has been (more or less) reclaimed and recovered by Mother Nature. Is having it populated by humans REALLY better than that? I think the wildlife would argue with you.
A fish is swimming in a river. At one end if a fisherman, at the other end a waterfall. A fox comes along and says "I see you've got two dangers here. Why don't I take you out so you can get away from them?" The fish says "Sure." and becomes dinner.
The moral of the story is it's better to deal with two known dangers than one unknown danger. Those are all known dangers. Changing them is the unknown danger.
Ah, but taking something out is in fact changing it. You are changing the animal's state from living to dead. In the same way that horrible things can happen if you tamper, refusing to tamper can also lead to horrible things. The best course of action, in my opinion, is the path of reasoned alteration. You change things based on what you can observe of the situation, but only after you are SURE you know all the sides of the problem, and ONLY if you believe it will result in positive change.
For example, in a situation you present often, I am given the choice whether or not to allow Hitler to live when he is still a child. My choice is not to kill him, nor is it to allow events to take their course. My decision is to subtly alter events behind the scenes, attempting to allow him to grow up into a better person who does NOT do what he did. If I don't think I could manipulate things behind the scenes, I would instead kidnap him, move him to a different country entirely, and have someone adopt him.
There is always a better way, and it is the efforts of those with the will to get things done that changes the world, for better or for worse. So it must be we who want a better world who must work hardest, and thwart those who would despoil it.
Titanic. God personally placed the iceberg where it was. MJ's "Impossible pool shot" suggests that God manipulated things so that it would be placed there from the creation of the universe. So you're going to usurp a plan which God Himself set in motion from the creation of the universe? You know better than God? Just a tad arrogant there, dontcha think, MJ? 1,400 or so people died on the Titanic. How many countless others were saved by the improved safety regulations which followed? Yup, save 1,400 people and doom countless others. Good going MJ. Oh sorry, I forgot. You know better than God......
One of the Titanic builders said "God Himself could not sink that ship." God said "Oh, is that right?" I firmly believe that God gives us a bloody nose every now and then to show us who is in charge.
WILL SOMEONE PLEASE FIX THIS BLOODY SITE SO THAT IT WORKS PROPERLY???????????????
Oh? What if 'God' sent you there TO fix it? What about that?
Don't call someone else arrogant because of their beliefs. That is itself arrogant.
If God dropped a flashing neon sign in front of my face that said "Save the Titanic" I would do it. Otherwise, I'm going with status quo.
Every single cruise ship in history following the Titanic, owes the Titanic. Titanic is the reason they have lifeboat drills. She's the reason they have enough lifeboats, period. She's the reason the crews are better trained for such disasters. Every single ship which followed, every single passenger who survived a sinking owes their lives to the Titanic. Save 1,400 lives now. How many people did you kill later?
Titanic wasn't a tragedy. She was a martyr.
Two
No, it would have happened had I not been there. Did you never watch Quantum Leap? Did you never imagine the notion that God might send someone into the past to fix what did not go well the first time?
Did you forget who you're talking about? This is God. Things don't go "badly" they go they way God wants them to. God doesn't need to send someone into the past to fix it. It doesn't need "fixed".
Your fear, John, was always that if you prevented a bad event something worse might happen. Yet it is equally possible that something better might happen. The Arizona did not sink, the other battleship did not go aground, our Pacific Fleet was not severely damaged.
The Big Picture. How many Rosie the Riveters were employed because of this? How many families had a stable income because of the need to replace the wounded ships? How many Americans enjoyed hot meals and roofs that didn't leak during The Great Depression? During a time when so many Americans were out of work, how many found jobs? The crippled ships restored our economy. Think Big Picture.
(Doing Therapy)
I don't think anyone is currently playing in Sherwood Forest
Did I fail to qualify by not "currently" playing, or by not being "anyone"?
The former. I haven't seen your thread active for long enough that I assumed you'd been versed out to some other world. Kyler and Adam both seem to move players through worlds more quickly than I usually do.
Besides, I really can't imagine, the way your game was going, that you would ever have gotten to the point at which you thought either rescuing Richard or killing John would be a good direction to take.
Did you forget who you're talking about? This is God. Things don't go "badly" they go they way God wants them to. God doesn't need to send someone into the past to fix it. It doesn't need "fixed".
Ah, but first, this isn't a time travel story. God might have intended for the Titanic to sink in your universe, but have decided to handle it differently in this one. You're not changing the events that already happened. You're choosing to make this universe different from the one you know.
On top of that, whether or not this is "the past", it's already different: you are in it. You are going to do something that will make a difference in some way. The boat suddenly got a smidgen heavier. If you have the opportunity to take a seat on a lifeboat, will you do it? What if someone else originally had that seat? What if that seat was originally empty, but you not taking it this time means that someone else will? Already the world has changed. The only question is whether your impact is going to be beneficial or not. You could choose to turn the Titanic into your own personal hunting ground, knowing that no one in the steerage class survived so you might as well kill them quickly. You could try to figure out how to create extra flotation devices, such as building another lifeboat, from materials in the hold. You could sit and watch and laugh at the futility, and be the last thing some of the survivors remember about the ship.
You are making it different by your presence. If you accept that God is in control, He must have put you here, and he must have done so for a reason.
In the story of Gideon, right at the beginning after the angel has has called him a "mighty man of valor", Gideon asks why if God really cares for Israel there aren't any miracles. The angel says, Gideon, you are the miracle; God sent you.
--M. J. Young
What I would probably do is let the ship sink, and do my solemn best to ensure that women and children got into the lifeboats first. Something that has always bothered me about it is that first-class men got into lifeboats before steerage women and children. Not if I was there they wouldn't!!!!!!!! Sending down lifeboats half-full when they could be overloaded with women and children (Less weight) was really stupid. You could put 40 women and children into a lifeboat designed for 20 men and still be well within the safety tolerances, especially on a calm sea. If a man got into a lifeboat I was guarding, he would get out. He might be dead when he got out, but he would certainly get out of the lifeboat!!!! I would save the women and children and go down with the ship. It wouldn't be total non-involvement. The legend of the Titanic would tell of the heavily-armed hero who saved the steerage women and children.
And just because I'm that kind of guy, for the first, and perhaps only time in their lives, steerage women and children would have priority over first-class women and children.
(Doing Therapy)
See, john? Now that you think about it, you already see ways you could have hopefully changed things for the better.
And I'm talking about how non-involvement is the way to go. I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth. The point was though that you can't stop the sinking. Saving people after the impact though is completely acceptable.
I could just see it though. A bunch of first-class men would get into a lifeboat and lower it. They got away from me, so now they're safe, right? WRONG!!!! I'd open fire on them. If they didn't get shot, the lifeboat would no longer be seaworthy. "I TOLD YOU YOU WEREN'T GETTING OFF THIS SHIP ALIVE!!!!!!!!!!"
(Doing Therapy)
So John you're really only saying non-involvement is the way to go unless you have some predilection for how you would like things to turn out that differs from history?
You either are non-involvement are you aren't. If you are you avoid in any way being seen or compromising a situation, if you aren't then you change things. It's not really possible to be "sorta" non-involvement, as that's just being picky about who you help or hurt.
More or less yeah. It's kind of like a "Why should I care?" philosophy, rather than a non-involvement philosophy. Dancing Princess. Princesses who can't sleep. You want me to risk my life to save a bunch of spoiled rich girls? Uh, no. "Why should I care?" Pearl Harbor. I wanted to stay out of that and not warn them. I also felt no obligation to protect that belief. "Why should I care?" Because I'm about to be in a world of hurt if I don't. Titanic, now that I think about it, I might not go down with the ship. I'd probably be the last person to jump on the last lifeboat I launched, and be the only man who survives. (I'd really like to see somebody stop me.) Hey, who says the hero has to go down with the ship? I just saved hundreds of lives. Don't I deserve a reward or something?? Women and children are a pretty good reason to care. And since now they're all widows, I've pretty much got my pick of them.....
Give me a reason to care.
(Doing Therapy)
Two
Steerage men would get on the lifeboats before first-class, after all the women and children. Heck, I might just reverse it completely. In the real version, the steerage passengers were locked below deck by the first-class. That's why none of them survived. I'd make all the first-class jump ship at gunpoint, and only let steerage on the lifeboats. Maybe save some first-class women and children. Don't want my pick of widows to be all poor women..... (I'm having a happy episode. If I could sell this feeling in a drug form, I'd corner the market.)
Now why on earth couldn't I have done a time travel analysis about a movie based on the Titanic???????
(Doing Therapy)
Third and last
First, sorry MJ for wasting your time. I haven't done this in a while though, so you gotta give me props for that.
As soon as I landed and ascertained the situation, loosen the screws to the gates below decks. First-class locked those gates. Leave the screws in the wood only 1 or 2 turns. It will still function, but the first person to put any weight against it is going to snap the screws right out of the wall. Then, hold a meeting with anyone in steerage who seemed like a leader. "Some serious problems are going to go down in a few days. It's going to be us against the first-class to survive. Anybody in a suit, kill them or throw them overboard. Who's with me?" Then, 30 seconds before the ship hits the iceberg, let steerage loose. They're armed, and ready to reclaim what is rightfully theirs. Their lives. That fight would last about 20 minutes, since they outnumbered first-class, are probably much better fighters, and were prepared by me. Steerage is saved. No first-class survives. I like that outcome much better.
(Doing Therapy)
And now that we've moved past non-involvement, let me suggest that you try to find a reason to care to do something in a world. It makes it more fun that way for player and GM.
Of course, we're doing fine in our world. Except you keep asking Hill...what are we doing when he has very little clue himself. Its not like he's a shaman. He knows a bit, but more he knows how to do certain specific things.
So, back on point....look for something you'd be interested in doing. Right now Adam is going more for the gumshoe method of taking down Mr. Big than the Hero bit, or th e Hero in a Conspiracy bit. Its working fine as long as I can keep inventing strands of detection to do. So there's different ways to approach each world.
Harry,
The previous squable Gov. Palin was in a week ago was with Obama and Ben Bernanke. They were for QE2, or Quanitative Easing, which is a fancy word for deliberate inflation. She along with others, was against it.
To my unsophisticated financial mind, Inflation=Bad.
While, I'll gladly admit that Bush spent like a drunken sailor; Obama spent enough to make a drunken sailor and all his shipmates blush. He's already gone through more in two years than Bush did in his whole term, I think, or close to it.
One of the big reasons the Tea Party people are upset is they want fiscal responsibility out of the Republicans. And its not that they're not madder at the Democrats, its just they regard the Dems as hopeless. Republicans, if you smack them hard enough, might be reformable.
And now that we've moved past non-involvement, let me suggest that you try to find a reason to care to do something in a world. It makes it more fun that way for player and GM.
I'm not going to go out of my way to save the spoiled rich girl, but if the spoiled rich girl is being raped or mugged right in front of me, I'll do something. Someone innocent being harmed right in front of me would be a good place to start.
(Doing Therapy)
"Women and children are a pretty good reason to care. And since now they're all widows, I've pretty much got my pick of them....
Ugh...Well, if that's what it takes to motivate you...
Brock, please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you recently chide me for picking out the one bad sentence or phrase and harping on it? In other words, exactly what you just did? Correct me if that was someone else.
(Doing Therapy)
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(Doing Therapy)
(And that's the notes to a song)